Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 16 Feb 2021 23:07

If its uncooled, it could be operating in low portion of SWIR. There are commercial SWIR cameras available for industrial monitoring in which cooling is based on convection alone. Tonbo might optimized their camera for 2.5 km application and offloaded the image to the onboard processor that will take care of seperating the object and background. Their website claims AI Enabled Auto Target Recognition and Tracking, so they would have sufficient data based on different weather conditions.

https://tonboimaging.com/defense/soluti ... d-seekers/

NAG is optimized for longer ranges mounted from Tanks and helicopters while Tonbo's seeker is optimized for short range. Both are complimentary.
https://www.livemint.com/news/business- ... 73154.html

“Tonbo has built an ultra lightweight uncooled seeker. Nag’s IIR seeker is a cooled, much heavier system. One of the big differences between a cooled system and an uncooled system is the cost. When you have a large expensive missile with long range, a cooled system might be acceptable. In an MPATGM, where the cost of the missile is expected to be as low as possible, using a cooled seeker doesn’t make sense. It’s like putting a Ferrari engine for driving on roads where the maximum speed is 20kmph," says Tonbo’s founder and CEO Arvind Lakshmikumar.

nam · Post by **nam** » 17 Feb 2021 00:53

It is so good to have Tonbo in the area of optical seekers. They can create really TFTA IIR seekers for ATGM & other PGM. I am sure there is a Spike 2K type add on in the works.

DRDO should work with tonbo for tactical IIR and it's own capability should focus on strategic IIR.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Feb 2021 03:49

https://www.livemint.com/news/business- ... 3314273154

What a poorly researched article by this Malavika Velayanikal, who has made a literal propaganda article without any confirmatory check.

She is comparing Nag (a heavy AT missile) to a shoulder launched MPATGM, and keeps throwing shade at Nag, without even realizing the requirements for it are far harder (detecting targets at longer ranges) and that it has cleared user trials, with orders only awaited as NAMICA was also getting through confirmatory tests in its final version, and awaiting production clearance. The Tonbo guy admits this difference between LR and MPATGMs, but she can't even pick it up.

Doesnt even know or realize that the Tonbo items are for BDL and its Amogha3, which is actually competing for the MPATGM program with DRDO. And DRDO already has an uncooled seeker and CLU from IRDE/pvt partners for its own MPATGM.

Tonbo guy says DRDO et al seekers are not terribly intelligent wherein he uses AI and his seekers have "image recognition". That will be news to them given they led with Image recognition far before Tonbo & have AI programs in multiple labs.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 17 Feb 2021 04:30

mody wrote:The report says that TONBO seeker will be an uncooled seeker and hence much smaller, lighter and cheaper than the Man Portable version of the Nag missile. Will help in keeping the missile weight and cost down. For a 2.5 Km range missile, would an uncooled seeker be good enough? Might have problems with the IA requirement of soaking the targets in mid day desert heat and then trying to target them.

Yes modern FLIR are pretty sensitive and without cooling.
OTOH new Nag will likely be FLIR + Optical colour sensor. So soaking as much in mid day is no issue. At night the temp differential is always very vivid.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 17 Feb 2021 18:49

From : The Indian Express: First test of air-to-air missile Astra Mk II likely on February 18

BHUBANESWAR: India’s latest Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missile Astra Mk II is all set to move out of the drawing board as the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is likely to conduct its first developmental trial this week.

Defence sources said the indigenously developed missile will be flight tested from a ground launcher being set up at launching complex III of Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Odisha coast on Thursday. The initial trials of the successor of Astra Mk I will be to test the weapon system’s ballistic performance. Once the safe release of the missile from the ground launcher and its propulsion and navigation are validated, it would be test fired from a fighter aircraft.

A team of defence scientists and technical officers are camping at the test facility for the much awaited mission of the year. “The test window is from February 18 to 20. The missile has already been integrated with the launcher and the final check-ups are on. If everything goes as per plan, the missile will be fired on the first date,” sources said. The go ahead for Astra Mk II came nearly seven months after the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approved the procurement of Astra Mk I for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Navy.

While the previous version of Astra missile has a range of about 110 km, its advanced variant can strike targets 160 km away. Equipped with improved jammer resistance and dual pulse motor having thrust vector control, the Astra Mk II is latest among the air-to-air missiles of its class. The DRDO has developed an indigenous seeker to improve the performance of the missile and replace the Russian radio frequency seeker used in the Astra Mk I.

Sources said the missile will be powered by Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR), which will enhance its performance and increase the strike range.Procurement of Astra Mk I for the IAF was approved after it completed ground tests and air trial from a Sukhoi 30 MKI aircraft. Process is on to integrate the missile with the Made in India Tejas fighter jet.

Meanwhile, prior to the Mk II test, the DRDO has decided to evacuate people residing within two km radius of the ITR as a safety measure. As many as 8,000 people from at least seven hamlets will be shifted to temporary shelters ahead of the test.

Balasore district administration has been asked to make arrangements and complete the evacuation of villagers before 8 am on the scheduled date. The people shifted for the mission will be compensated as per Ministry of Defence (MoD) norms.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Feb 2021 18:55

VinodTK wrote: While the previous version of Astra missile has a range of about 110 km, its advanced variant can strike targets 160 km away. Equipped with improved jammer resistance and dual pulse motor having thrust vector control, the Astra Mk II is latest among the air-to-air missiles of its class. The DRDO has developed an indigenous seeker to improve the performance of the missile and replace the Russian radio frequency seeker used in the Astra Mk I.

Sources said the missile will be powered by Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR), which will enhance its performance and increase the strike range.Procurement of Astra Mk I for the IAF was approved after it completed ground tests and air trial from a Sukhoi 30 MKI aircraft. Process is on to integrate the missile with the Made in India Tejas fighter jet.

Wow this is fast. I thought the first test was supposed to be later in the year. Anyway, DDM strikes again as usual. They have figured out a way to power the missile with a dual pulse rocket motor as well as a SFDR at the same time.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 Feb 2021 19:30

Rout is usually not wrong on the facts, but he seems to have messed up this time

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Feb 2021 19:37

I hadn't even checked the byline. I am shocked that Rout of all people has made this blunder.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Feb 2021 22:40

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 83748?s=20 ---> Interesting to see that India's development of Astra Mk2 BVR missile was one of the front page news of France's top business magazine 'Capital'.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Feb 2021 22:47

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 82529?s=20 ---> Next Generation Astra Mk2 BVR A2A missile to be operational with IAF by the end of 2022. It will have a Pk & NEZ as good as or better than Chinese PL-15. India may introduce AESA seekers in future iterations of Astra missile series.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 85987?s=20 ---> Astra Mk2 will allow other IAF jets (Su-30MKIs, Tejas Mk1A etc) to carry out OCA* & DCA* and various LFE* missions with BVR capabilities closer to Meteor armed Rafales than now.

*OCA - Offensive Counter Air
*DCA - Defensive Counter Air
*LFE - Large Force Engagement

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 17 Feb 2021 23:09

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 82529?s=20 ---> Next Generation Astra Mk2 BVR A2A missile to be operational with IAF by the end of 2022. It will have a Pk & NEZ as good as or better than Chinese PL-15. India may introduce AESA seekers in future iterations of Astra missile series.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 85987?s=20 ---> Astra Mk2 will allow other IAF jets (Su-30MKIs, Tejas Mk1A etc) to carry out OCA* & DCA* and various LFE* missions with BVR capabilities closer to Meteor armed Rafales than now.

*OCA - Offensive Counter Air
*DCA - Defensive Counter Air
*LFE - Large Force Engagement

With all this focus on Astra, what happens to IAF R77 stockpiles? My assumption is that air battle with PAF was instrumental in moving IAF to a new reliable long range AAM given R77 was either faulty or has been compromised, given PAF has some way of jamming/counter-measures for it.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Feb 2021 23:29

Newer variants of the R-77 (longer range) were acquired post Balakot. The R-77s used at Balakot was neither faulty nor compromised, they just did not have the range of the AIM-120C5. The newer variants have closed that gap. But the Astra is among the newest missiles to join the IAF and the Mk1 & her follow on variants will give the IAF what it is looking for.

The R-77s will continue to be used on the Su-30MKIs and MiG-29UPGs and even the MiG-29Ks of the Indian Navy.

The AIM-120C5s were launched at DMAX, without even a confirmed lock. Five or more AIM-120C5s were launched that day, against Su-30MKIs. Where is the wreckage of a Su-30MKI? Rambha pilots out maneuvered those missiles and were coming in closer to get a lock. The PAF ran away, true to form.

nam · Post by **nam** » 18 Feb 2021 05:06

It will be quite interesting to see how Astra 2 looks like.

It could be like Astra 1: We have NGARM which is bigger Astra with dual pulse
It could be like Barak 8: Dual pulse and all you need is a smaller variant.
It could be like Akash NG: Dual pulse with fins in the center body.

Fundamentally a smaller variant of either of these 3. I feel it could be 1 or 2, given the experience we have with that aero design. The quickest version is a smaller NGARM

Once upon a time we used to play with bulky Akash.. now 3 missiles with dual pulse..

4th on the way!

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 18 Feb 2021 12:37

A short chat with Gp Capt HarshVardhan on the CATS program

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Feb 2021 13:22

I wish somewhere down the line, there would be Astra-CCM and Astra-long-range that come with not just seekers on the nose but on both sides of the mid-body too. Close to 360 degree coverage, so that the missile never loses the lock. Then the only constraint will be the energy of the missile.

Sure, aerodynamics, cooling, signals from multiple seekers will all need to be sorted out.

As a next best option, have 360 degree sensors around the aircraft that can cue a missile (more applicable to CCMs) in the right direction till it acquires its own lock. So, in a dogfight, a Tejas can shoot down a target that's above and behind it.

nam · Post by **nam** » 18 Feb 2021 15:02

You won't need 360 degree. It is not difficult to achieve larger field of view with the advent of AESA radar, with conformal antennas. Given that it can switch the beam between panels, the onboard power should be enough as well.

Having said that, the datalink now provides situational awareness anyways.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Feb 2021 17:23

Sure, but for CCM's you will need IR sensors

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 18 Feb 2021 18:04

With CCM that has IIR, loosing lock will be less of a problem than non IIR plain vanilla types like sidewinder since former has got some 'intelligence' inside to see whats going on. Plus you will be homing in from quite some distance with datalink support and it would be extremely difficult to move out of IR field of view for the target. For a non IIR, adding sensors on the side will make it bulky since those are gimballed and will eat into precious SWaP margins. The warhead will then have to be reduced to puny Lakshmi bomb types.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 19 Feb 2021 13:57

HELINA Anti-Tank Missiles Ace Joint Trials By Indian Army, Air Force With 100 Per Cent Hit Rate; Ready For Induction

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/helina-an ... -induction

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 19 Feb 2021 14:01

So, no more summer, winter, spring, monsoon, desert, ocean, high altitutde, urban, rural, jungle, realiability, accelerated degradation, wear and tear, user acceptance, advance user acceptance trials?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Feb 2021 14:26

Thakur_B wrote:So, no more summer, winter, spring, monsoon, desert, ocean, high altitutde, urban, rural, jungle, realiability, accelerated degradation, wear and tear, user acceptance, advance user acceptance trials?

The joint trials only included the Army and Air Force. Not good enough. Need to include the Navy and Coast Guard as well and repeat all trials again.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Feb 2021 14:56

^^^
Now it will need to go through 13-step procurement process

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 19 Feb 2021 15:05

Video of Helina test.

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 6158306305

i thought that Dhruvastra was the launcher but looks like it is the Air force version of Helina.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 19 Feb 2021 15:07

Thakur_B wrote:So, no more summer, winter, spring, monsoon, desert, ocean, high altitutde, urban, rural, jungle, realiability, accelerated degradation, wear and tear, user acceptance, advance user acceptance trials?

i understand why we think in this line but hopefully, things are changing. lets see if induction happens faster this time around. the Chinese standoff has added urgency.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 19 Feb 2021 15:28

Helina went through a massive change. From a 2 - 4 KM LOBL (Nag) to a 7 KM LOAL (for LCH) to a 7 KM LOBL (for Rudra) !!

Since its a fairly independent missile, without needing the WSO, it can be mounted on even aircraft like the Jag & even the Hawk, with a minimal integration.

Given that there are 70 Rudras in service, a minimum order of 8*70 = 560 will be appropriate. More, when the LCH is inducted & when its mated with other aircrafts/UAVs

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 19 Feb 2021 15:36

What's also a bit surprising is that these trials have been conducted over the last few days without the press getting wind of it.

Everyone was expecting the Astra-2 dev trials, but this thing has sneaked in

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 19 Feb 2021 15:55

dumb question. what is the difference between WSI and WSO ?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Feb 2021 16:02

Atmavik wrote:dumb question. what is the difference between WSI and WSO ?

WSI is the abbreviation for "Weapon Systems Integrated". WSI Dhruv was the original name for the Rudra helicopter. WSO means Weapon Systems Officer, the back-seat crewmember in aircraft like the Su-30MKI or in 2-seat attack helicopters (except in attack helicopters, the pilot may sit in the back and WSO in the front). Also, the WSO may just be called co-pilot or gunner in a helicopter.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Feb 2021 16:04

Atmavik wrote:Video of Helina test.

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 6158306305

i thought that Dhruvastra was the launcher but looks like it is the Air force version of Helina.

Different angle video
https://twitter.com/ndtvvideos/status/1 ... 60513?s=20

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 19 Feb 2021 19:06

This is such wonderful news. Finally, LCH and Rudras have their ATGM. Perhaps there is no need for Spike-based ATGM for the helicopters.
I would imagine, we should invite private players also in the production.We need some 40,000-50,000 modern ATGMs (third generation, where ATGM can remotely lock target - minimum exposure to firing crew/vehicle/plane). They can scoot after firing. Our current holdings of similar amounts are of 2nd and first-generation, where the missile has to guided by wire or painted by the user till it hits, keeping the user exposed for a long time).

Additional tests (and I pray that IAF/IA does not use that as an excuse to delay, as these missiles have proven good in the desert, i.e. TSP) at high altitudes in LEH, Sikkim and AP is needed. Leh is also a desert at high altitude, AP more jungle. After that arm LCH/Rudras in these theaters.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 19 Feb 2021 19:40

Prasad wrote:A short chat with Gp Capt HarshVardhan on the CATS program

Per HVK each LCA (or mother ship) can control 5 Cats Warriors (drones). So that means in a regular squadron of 18 jets, even if 10 jets are given 5 drones each then that squadron effectively has a strength of 50 airframes to carry out operations.

Therefore, mathematically if 10 squadrons are given this capability it will generate 500 additional airframes for operations. 500/18 = 27 squadrons. So then you have the original 30 (approx) squadrons + additional 27 squadrons = 57 squadrons. Much more than the 42 squadrons that the IAF needs for a 2-front war isn't it?

What's more, here the drones will be powered by desi engines already under development, can be built by HAL much faster and IAF can build up it's squadron strength much cheaply and faster than inducting phoren jets.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Feb 2021 19:52

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Feb 2021 20:46

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Feb 2021 20:51

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 57504?s=20 ---> Helina & Dhruvastra are 3rd Gen, Lock on Before Launch (LOBL) fire & forget Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGMs).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Feb 2021 20:54

https://twitter.com/Mark99xm/status/136 ... 86787?s=20 --->

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 19 Feb 2021 23:47

Thakur_B wrote:So, no more summer, winter, spring, monsoon, desert, ocean, high altitutde, urban, rural, jungle, realiability, accelerated degradation, wear and tear, user acceptance, advance user acceptance trials?

The missile MUST be tested on superhot June in Thar desert, after soaking human tandoor inside, to minimize temp gradient seen by imported Cheeni FLIR sensor. As per IA specified test plan. And these fellows dare test it in cool February weather

And what about testing it at 90k ft in Antarctica? Not to mention on moon.

This is genocide. Mudy must rizine.

Full disclosure: i only get chattris paisa donation from the Chandigarh import Lutyian democratic republic.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 20 Feb 2021 11:25

Haridas wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:So, no more summer, winter, spring, monsoon, desert, ocean, high altitutde, urban, rural, jungle, realiability, accelerated degradation, wear and tear, user acceptance, advance user acceptance trials?
The missile MUST be tested on superhot June in Thar desert, after soaking human tandoor inside, to minimize temp gradient seen by imported Cheeni FLIR sensor. As per IA specified test plan. And these fellows dare test it in cool February weather

And what about testing it at 90k ft in Antarctica? Not to mention on moon.

This is genocide. Mudy must rizine.

Full disclosure: i only get chattris paisa donation from the Chandigarh import Lutyian democratic republic.

We are all happy about Helina. How come u can drag in genocide or modi in here! Who is even talking about anything Like that here. It is OT, unrelated and muddies the forum. It adds no value to this discussion.

Bringing in politics into this defence forum (when completely unrelated) does no favor to our threads.

It doesn't behooves us the least.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2021 12:37

It's a joke on the innumerable trials.

Come on.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 20 Feb 2021 14:04

Jingo khush

It is as big as event as LCA getting FOC. Tejas will protect air and Nag/Helina/Dhruvastra will protect land!! It’s one of the major event - it unblocks many stuck programs. We are slowly getting there

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 20 Feb 2021 14:19

Napaki pasandvasi can demand, India should donate Nag/Helina to napak. We will send their share from our border posts