I am referring to the 150 (40 off the shelf + 110 made by HAL) Mirage 2000 order from the 80s. Had the GOI done that back then, the IAF would not be hunting for 114 MRFA fighters today and the IAF would not have purchased 36 Rafales either. Same with the HDW 209 submarine deal as well.Vips wrote:The 150 Mirage's would have been good till now but no further. Countries like Qatar and Egypt have Mirage 2000 but have since moved on. If we had only Porkistan as a neighbour yes those Mirages would have been good even for another decade but with china as our enemy No 1 they would not/will not be enough.
VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
The Rafale EM (single seater) and Rafale DM (twin seater) variants in the Egyptian Air Force is the F3O-4T variant. The second batch of 30 aircraft will be in the F3R standard. The earlier batch will be upgraded to the F3R standard.Vips wrote:The French will for certain try to gouge us by claiming F4 version > F3. I tried finding which version the Egyptians have opted for in the latest order but have not been able to come across more specifics of that deal.
No Rafale F4 variant exists as of yet, however reportedly the Rafale F4 has been offered (on paper) to the IAF to match or exceed the other contestants in the MRFA contest. Since 114 aircraft will not come, a small batch of F4s and upgrading the first 36 will work out cheaper than acquiring 114 birds. India also operates the F3R variant, but with India Specific Enhancements.
French stuff is pricey, but it works i.e. Balakot. Also, India does not have to deal with the perpetual political whining & shenanigans such as with Uncle Sam.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
I50 Mirages would have kept Rafales out. The Rafale fleet therefore plus the M2K fleet size should be that much to counter two hostile neighbors. So another 36 Rafales should be purchased ASAP and delivered quickly. This would allow time for the Mk2 and AMCA to develop and mature without loss of capability. LCA Mk2 can definitely replace the Jag + Mig -27 fleets. IAF should be looking to grow to 45 squadrons. LCA can help with that enhancement.
GOI should look at building private capability to manufacture and design aircraft. HAL privatization, support to others (Taneja Aerospace) should be considered forthwith so that MK2 and AMCA designs can go to private lines. Also release of orders would become easier with use of private entities.
GOI should look at building private capability to manufacture and design aircraft. HAL privatization, support to others (Taneja Aerospace) should be considered forthwith so that MK2 and AMCA designs can go to private lines. Also release of orders would become easier with use of private entities.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Three more Rafale fighter jets to arrive in India tonight.
Three more French-origin Rafale fighters are slated to touch down in India, after mid-air refueling by tankers of France and UAE, on Wednesday night.
The three new jets will add to the 17 such omni-role fighters, which have a combat range of 780-km to 1,650-km without mid-air refueling, already delivered to India.
IAF will get all the 36 twin-engine Rafales, contracted under the Rs 59,000 crore deal inked with France in September 2016, by next year.The first Rafale squadron, 17 `Golden Arrows’ Squadron, is already operational at the Ambala airbase. The second, 101 `Falcons’ Squadron, in turn, will now come up at the Hasimara airbase in West Bengal, as was reported by TOI earlier.
The 4.5-generation Rafales are armed with long stand-off weapons like the over 300-km range `Scalp’ air-to-ground cruise missiles. The fighters are also being equipped with the top-notch Meteor air-to-air missiles, which with a strike range of 120 to 150-km can outgun any missile that can currently be unleashed by Pakistani or Chinese jets.
IAF has also ordered the “Hammer” air-to-ground precision-guided munitions for the Rafales, in a deal that came last year amidst the ongoing military confrontation with China in eastern Ladakh.
With a strike range of 20 to 70-km, the Hammer munitions are designed to destroy bunkers, hardened shelters and other targets in all terrains, including the mountainous one in Ladakh.
Three more French-origin Rafale fighters are slated to touch down in India, after mid-air refueling by tankers of France and UAE, on Wednesday night.
The three new jets will add to the 17 such omni-role fighters, which have a combat range of 780-km to 1,650-km without mid-air refueling, already delivered to India.
IAF will get all the 36 twin-engine Rafales, contracted under the Rs 59,000 crore deal inked with France in September 2016, by next year.The first Rafale squadron, 17 `Golden Arrows’ Squadron, is already operational at the Ambala airbase. The second, 101 `Falcons’ Squadron, in turn, will now come up at the Hasimara airbase in West Bengal, as was reported by TOI earlier.
The 4.5-generation Rafales are armed with long stand-off weapons like the over 300-km range `Scalp’ air-to-ground cruise missiles. The fighters are also being equipped with the top-notch Meteor air-to-air missiles, which with a strike range of 120 to 150-km can outgun any missile that can currently be unleashed by Pakistani or Chinese jets.
IAF has also ordered the “Hammer” air-to-ground precision-guided munitions for the Rafales, in a deal that came last year amidst the ongoing military confrontation with China in eastern Ladakh.
With a strike range of 20 to 70-km, the Hammer munitions are designed to destroy bunkers, hardened shelters and other targets in all terrains, including the mountainous one in Ladakh.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Did these 6th batch jets land in India...?Vips wrote:Three more Rafale fighter jets to arrive in India tonight.
Three more French-origin Rafale fighters are slated to touch down in India, after mid-air refueling by tankers of France and UAE, on Wednesday night.
I haven't seen any proper news item (except 1 or 2 vague news articles)... Even @IAF_MCC didn't tweet anything about this, which they normally do...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
The only credible source I found is this tweet from official account of Indian Embassy in France--->LakshmanPST wrote:Did these 6th batch jets land in India...?Vips wrote:Three more Rafale fighter jets to arrive in India tonight.
Three more French-origin Rafale fighters are slated to touch down in India, after mid-air refueling by tankers of France and UAE, on Wednesday night.
I haven't seen any proper news item (except 1 or 2 vague news articles)... Even @IAF_MCC didn't tweet anything about this, which they normally do...
https://twitter.com/Indian_Embassy/stat ... 60032?s=19
It shows pics of pilots on tarmac before takeoff. So, the 6th batch probably arrived. But surprised to see not even a single confirmatory tweet or news article regarding the same.
In a way it is good that deliveries became a routine affair now and they're not overhyping Rafales like before.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
No.101 'Falcons' squadron to be resurrected with the arrival of 4 more Rafales.
IAF set to resurrect 101 Squadron at Hashimara base with 4 more Rafale jets
IAF set to resurrect 101 Squadron at Hashimara base with 4 more Rafale jets
At the end of May, the Air Force will have 24 Rafale fighter jets in India, with another seven kept for training purposes in France and only five more to be handed over before the two squadrons are complete.
With another batch of four Rafale fighters landing at Ambala from Merignac-Bordeaux airbase in France on May 19-20, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is all set to resurrect the 101 “Falcons of Chamb” squadron at Hashimara in West Bengal even as advance units have already moved into the new base.
While the exact date of Rafale landing in India will be determined by availability of mid-air refuellers of the UAE Air Force and weather conditions, it is quite evident that the full deliveries of 36 aircraft will be completed well before April 2022 as announced by Union defence minister Rajnath Singh in Parliament. At the end of May, the IAF will have 24 Rafale fighter jets in India, with another seven kept for training purposes in France and only five more to be handed over before the two squadrons are complete.
The last five aircraft may be delivered in the second-half of 2021 as Egypt has placed an order of 30 Rafale fighters.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Rakesh or any one what are differences between F3 vs F4?
And does latter exist?
And does latter exist?
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Ramana sir, some info about the F3-R vs F4
Rafale F3-R standard qualified by the DGA
France Launches Rafale F4 Upgrade
Rafale F3-R standard qualified by the DGA
The upgrades:On 31 October 2018, the F3-R standard of the Rafale was qualified by the French defense procurement agency (DGA)
Rafale F3-R standard declared fully operationalThe European Meteor long-range air-to-air missile produced by MBDA.
The Thales Talios new-generation laser designator pod.
The laser homing version of the Safran AASM Air-to-Ground Modular Weapon.
F3 R also includes upgrades to the Rafale sensors and to systems ensuring total interoperability.
The F4As previously reported by Janes, the F3-R standard comprises major software and hardware upgrades that include the integration of the Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) and the latest laser-guided version of the Sagem Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM) modular air-to-ground precision weapon, the Thales RBE2 active electronic scanned array (AESA) radar, the Thales TALIOS long-range airborne targeting pod, an automatic ground collision avoidance system (Auto-GCAS), an improved buddy-buddy refuelling pod, and the Spectra electronic warfare system. The latest version of the Rafale will continue to carry the enhanced medium-range, air-to-ground missile (ASMPA) as part of airborne nuclear deterrence missions.
France Launches Rafale F4 Upgrade
ImprovementsUnder current plans Standard F4 will be implemented in two increments, the first in 2023 and the second in 2025.
The first batch of F4.1 Rafales will comprise 28 aircraft, already contracted for, while the later F4.2 batch will comprise 30 machines that are due for delivery by 2030.
Rafale “F4” standard launchedFurther system enhancements will be made to the Rafale’s sensor suite, including the RBE2 AESA radar, Talios targeting pod, and the OSF frontal sector optronics system. Likewise, the Spectra electronic warfare system will also receive improvements to maintain its ability to deter emerging threats. Weapons enhancements will be made through future developments of the ASMP-A nuclear missile, Scalp stand-off attack missile, MICA NG air-to-air missile, and a 1000-kg version of the AASM precision-guided weapon. In-service support and readiness will be improved through the adoption of processes such as fault diagnosis assistance, preventative maintenance, and the upgrading of the M88 engine’s computer
France Testing Scorpion Combat Vehicle Helmet as part of F4 Standard Rafale JetF4 will include a new Prognosis and Diagnostic Aid System introducing predictive maintenance capabilities. Other maintenance optimization features are scheduled, particularly with solutions based on Big Data and artificial intelligence. Lastly, the Rafale will be equipped with a new engine control unit.
France’s Director General of Armamements (DGA) has commenced testing the helmet from the Scorpion combat vehicle on the Rafale fighter jet as part of its F4 standard, the next planned upgrade of the Rafale.
The French defense ministry said DGA carried out compatibility tests on the Thales Scorpion helmet sight on the Cazaux site (Gironde) with the parachute evacuation of a Rafale pilot.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
^^^
IAF won’t be upgrading to F4 standards anytime soon. Probably IAF Rafale MLU would occur around 2035/40. By then, there will be plenty of Indian components available for consideration.
However, new weapons integration (Indian, French and Israeli) will be ongoing. Indigenous ones would be Brahmos-NG, Nirbhay ALCM, Rudram ASM series, Gurav/Gautam glide bombs, HSLD/PG and probably Astra AAM series.
IAF won’t be upgrading to F4 standards anytime soon. Probably IAF Rafale MLU would occur around 2035/40. By then, there will be plenty of Indian components available for consideration.
However, new weapons integration (Indian, French and Israeli) will be ongoing. Indigenous ones would be Brahmos-NG, Nirbhay ALCM, Rudram ASM series, Gurav/Gautam glide bombs, HSLD/PG and probably Astra AAM series.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
m_saini, Thanks, exactly what I was looking for.
Gracias.
Gracias.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
France begins Rafale F4 flight trials
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ght-trials
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ght-trials
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Any news about the delivery of 7th batch of 4 Rafales...?Kartik wrote:No.101 'Falcons' squadron to be resurrected with the arrival of 4 more Rafales.
IAF set to resurrect 101 Squadron at Hashimara base with 4 more Rafale jets
With another batch of four Rafale fighters landing at Ambala from Merignac-Bordeaux airbase in France on May 19-20,
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
3 more Rafale jets land in India from France.LakshmanPST wrote:Kartik wrote:No.101 'Falcons' squadron to be resurrected with the arrival of 4 more Rafales.
Any news about the delivery of 7th batch of 4 Rafales...?
Another batch of three Rafale fighter jets landed at the Ambala airbase on Thursday, taking the total number of Rafales in the Indian Air Force (IAF) inventory to 23.
According to people aware of the development in Dassault, four aircraft were supposed to take off from Merignac-Bordeaux airbase in France on May 20, but only three could because of the unavailability of more mid-air refuellers in the UAE.
Although four Rafale Omni role fighters were supposed to leave on May 20, the flights were rescheduled due to maintenance issues with the mid air refuellers. The fighters could only take off today due to long weekend holidays in France, the people cited above said.
The IAF is all set to resurrect the 101 “Falcons of Chamb” squadron at Hashimara in West Bengal. It is expected that the full deliveries of 36 Rafale aircraft will be completed well before April 2022 as announced by Union defence minister Rajnath Singh in Parliament.
With India likely to buy more front-line fighters to complete the stalled requirement of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), the French have not only offered hot engine technology to India but are also willing to jointly develop extended range and capability Hammer air-to-ground missile under the Atmanirbhar Bharat route. French engine manufacturer Safran has already conveyed the offer for jointly developing aircraft engines upto 100 Kilo Newton thrust as well as share the hot engine technology which Indian allies in the west are reluctant to share.
France has also offered to share and jointly develop technology for longer range and heavier Highly Agile and Manoeuvrable Munition Extended Range (Hammer) missile which is currently part of the weapons package on the Indian Rafale. With a range of over 70 kilometres, the Hammer weapon can be guided on to the target using GPS, Inertial Navigation and Infra-red seeker with the capability to adjust to target location mid-air using maps for course correction. The latest version of this weapon has a 1,000 kilogram bomb and with laser guidance technology.
India ordered 36 warplanes from France (equivalent of two squadrons) in 2016 for ₹59,000 crore under a government-to-government deal.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
‘Super-Rafales’: Dassault Plans To Produce F5 Variant Of Rafale Jets Amid Rising Global Demand & Competition
https://eurasiantimes.com/super-rafales ... mpetition/
26 June 2021
https://eurasiantimes.com/super-rafales ... mpetition/
26 June 2021
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
The European Intervention Initiative Conference: An Update on European Defense Cooperation
https://sldinfo.com/2021/06/the-europea ... operation/
22 June 2021
https://sldinfo.com/2021/06/the-europea ... operation/
22 June 2021
The Dassault Aviation Rafale fighter jet will be operational to “2065-ish,” Parisot said.“Rafale will continue to evolve,” he said. An F4 version is in the pipeline, and there is thought on an F5, which will carry the ASN4G weapon, a planned hypersonic fourth-generation nuclear missile. There will be F6 and F7 versions of the Rafale, which will be a “workhorse,” he said.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
French judge tasked with probing Rafale jet sale to India
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 089209.cms
Not able to Copy Paste the entire article but they seem to be mixing up separate deals intentionally...
The investigation seems to be mainly about Dassault selecting Reliance as a partner...
Funnily enough, Reliance was selected for MRFA deal, which is currently not going anywhere...
And this got nothing to do with actual 36 Rafale G2G contract...
This is some RG level stuff...
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 089209.cms
Not able to Copy Paste the entire article but they seem to be mixing up separate deals intentionally...
The investigation seems to be mainly about Dassault selecting Reliance as a partner...
Funnily enough, Reliance was selected for MRFA deal, which is currently not going anywhere...
And this got nothing to do with actual 36 Rafale G2G contract...
This is some RG level stuff...
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvV2Us7OCM
Made this video simulating a skirmish between Indian Rafales and Pakistani JF-17s.
Made this video simulating a skirmish between Indian Rafales and Pakistani JF-17s.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Good development, they seem to be committed to the proposed roadmap of iterative enhancementsRakesh wrote:‘Super-Rafales’: Dassault Plans To Produce F5 Variant Of Rafale Jets Amid Rising Global Demand & Competition
https://eurasiantimes.com/super-rafales ... mpetition/
26 June 2021
"An F4 version is in the pipeline, and there is thought on an F5. There will be F6 and F7 versions of the Rafale, which will be a “workhorse,” he said"
https://twitter.com/Marsattaqueblog/sta ... 4149788675
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
The Rafale upgrade cycle should closely mirror that of the Mirage-2000. They'll upgrade it as they transition to the FCAS/SCAF which is aiming for a late 2030's IOC. After that the two platforms will have to compete for funding.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Did the deliveries stop?
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
IAF's second Rafale squadron to get operational by July 26.
The Indian Air Force (IAF) will get a major boost along the China border in the northeast as the force would be making its second Rafale fighter aircraft squadron operational by July 26.
The Rafale aircraft which have already arrived in Ambala would start ferrying to the Hashimara air base in next few days and the squadron would get operational by July 26, government sources told ANI in New Delhi.
The 101 squadron would be mainly responsible for looking after the eastern frontier with China-based in Hashimara while the 17 squadron in Ambala would be looking after the Northern borders with China in Ladakh and other areas along with Pakistan.
The Air Force has received around 25 aircraft from France and more are expected to be delivered in the next few months out of the 36 planes that India had ordered in 2016.
The planes have already been operationalised in the service within few days of their arrival in July and they have already been deployed for air patrols along the eastern front with China and the new squadron would be functioning with the fleet of Su-30 squadrons already deployed in the eastern sector in significant numbers.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1417 ... 95840?s=19
Three Rafale aircraft arrived in India a short while ago, after a direct ferry from #IstresAirBase, France.
IAF deeply appreciates the support by UAE Air Force for in-flight refuelling during the non-stop ferry.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
See post above this oneviveks wrote:Did the deliveries stop?
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
After a while...lagta hain congress ne finance minister ko ghooss khilakar temporarily rok laga di thi. It has only been the BJP government that launched ambitious projects post indira gandhi. She and her father were definitely very forward thinking people. It is sad that they had to pay their lives for it. Indian population is a difficult audience...especially...if you look closely...the people who you grow up with are so much dearth and discontentful with almost everything within the country, be it including their very own neighbor.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
How true is this story of spectra blocking su35 Bars miles away and rendered 35s completely blind ?
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
They will keep that quiet. Must be testing the "Active Radar Cancelling" tech. They wont release the performance figures.shaun wrote:How true is this story of spectra blocking su35 Bars miles away and rendered 35s completely blind ?
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
And the Russian tech will be beat them by developing out of the box testing! If india really values the non alignment movement, they will release the figures to the manufacturing/supplying countries.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
One impressive thing is how soon the Rafales are being deployed to active service.
Even Tejas took a while to be declared ready for active service.
Even Tejas took a while to be declared ready for active service.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Dassault states that transition from Mirage 2000 to Rafale is relatively easy. So the turnaround time for pilots will be quicker. The initial batch of Rafale pilots will definitely have seasoned M2K pilots in the roster. Serviceability is also vastly improved vis-a-viv Mirage 2000, so fleet availability will be high. India has negotiated for 75% fleet availability for the first five years I believe. Full integration however will take time, as will be with any combat aircraft.
No 20 Lightnings was tasked with creating the training syllabus for the Su-30MKI, a syllabus which all Rambha squadrons adopted at their raisings. That syllabus took time. With Tejas, No 45 Squadron is more or less doing the same thing as No 20 Lightnings did back in 2001/2002.
Also unlike Rafale, Tejas has no prior operational experience. So everything has to be done from scratch. And Tejas being a desi bird, it is imperative that all i's are dotted and t's are crossed. The import lobby is waiting with bated breath for the first crash to occur, to argue for imports. Cannot drop the ball and cannot afford to cut corners. One famous American analyst already said that India needs to reconsider her investment in the Tejas program and rather purchase the most affordable fourth generation fighter available i.e. F-16
Ramana-ji, I don't mean to sound hyperbole....but when the first Tejas crashes, there will be mass hysteria among the import lobby.
No 20 Lightnings was tasked with creating the training syllabus for the Su-30MKI, a syllabus which all Rambha squadrons adopted at their raisings. That syllabus took time. With Tejas, No 45 Squadron is more or less doing the same thing as No 20 Lightnings did back in 2001/2002.
Also unlike Rafale, Tejas has no prior operational experience. So everything has to be done from scratch. And Tejas being a desi bird, it is imperative that all i's are dotted and t's are crossed. The import lobby is waiting with bated breath for the first crash to occur, to argue for imports. Cannot drop the ball and cannot afford to cut corners. One famous American analyst already said that India needs to reconsider her investment in the Tejas program and rather purchase the most affordable fourth generation fighter available i.e. F-16
Ramana-ji, I don't mean to sound hyperbole....but when the first Tejas crashes, there will be mass hysteria among the import lobby.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
What is really aggravating about this is that even a country like Egypt with 1/10th of India's GDP easily orders follow on birds. But look at the tamasha in desh - so frustrating.viveks wrote:They will keep that quiet. Must be testing the "Active Radar Cancelling" tech. They wont release the performance figures.shaun wrote:How true is this story of spectra blocking su35 Bars miles away and rendered 35s completely blind ?
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
And then the media talks of cost and our former defence minister is forced to equate buying jets to buying moong and toor daal!
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
The nonchalant attitude to imports is a specialty here on BRF! When you buy an imported weapon system, you are committing to it for its 40 year life cycle with at least one major MLU that will end up costing more than the initial purchase. And when you have competing needs for resources and cheaper domestic products available, there will be a tight-rope that decision makers walk.
But what amazes me is the glee with which Indians send their jobs overseas. That is unique and not seen anywhere. The world over we observe countries pushing domestic products over imports. But here we have people boasting/complaining that smaller economies make decisions faster. I would take the longer time to decide on imports any day - perhaps the smaller economies don't have a hope of ever having a domestic MIC.
People take this attitude of - buy 2 more squadrons and be done with it. What is the rationale behind 2 additional squadrons? Is that a comfort number? Or is IAF short of 2 squadrons of this particular type? Or it is the number needed to counter a specific number of enemy squadrons arrayed against us? Realize this, a new order will mean first deliveries at least 3 years from the contract signing and perhaps total deliveries in 3 years from that date. Is that schedule optimal for national security? Can alternatives be available earlier?
But what amazes me is the glee with which Indians send their jobs overseas. That is unique and not seen anywhere. The world over we observe countries pushing domestic products over imports. But here we have people boasting/complaining that smaller economies make decisions faster. I would take the longer time to decide on imports any day - perhaps the smaller economies don't have a hope of ever having a domestic MIC.
People take this attitude of - buy 2 more squadrons and be done with it. What is the rationale behind 2 additional squadrons? Is that a comfort number? Or is IAF short of 2 squadrons of this particular type? Or it is the number needed to counter a specific number of enemy squadrons arrayed against us? Realize this, a new order will mean first deliveries at least 3 years from the contract signing and perhaps total deliveries in 3 years from that date. Is that schedule optimal for national security? Can alternatives be available earlier?
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Egypt had the choice to buy more Rafales or SU35 when it wanted additional 4.5++ jets. Now there has to be a very compelling reason why Egypt opted for Rafale's which are more expensive compared to the SU35 that were offered by Russia.shaun wrote:How true is this story of spectra blocking su35 Bars miles away and rendered 35s completely blind ?
Egypt is the only country which has both the types in its fleet so any news coming from there has to be considered as credible.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
You answered your own question - on the validity of two additional Rafale squadrons. This is your own post (which is the third one from top, in this very page of this thread) which I am reproducing here...Vivek K wrote:People take this attitude of - buy 2 more squadrons and be done with it. What is the rationale behind 2 additional squadrons? Is that a comfort number? Or is IAF short of 2 squadrons of this particular type? Or it is the number needed to counter a specific number of enemy squadrons arrayed against us?
Another two squadrons is not a comfort number, but rather to capitalize on the investment made on the first 36. That investment is primarily in the infrastructure that is set up at Ambala and Hasimara that can house two squadrons each of the Rafale. Then there is the investment made in the simulators, tools, etc. As per the IAF, they are short of 6 - 7 squadrons of MRFA/MMRCA, but an additional two - at this stage - will help. But you put it best - time for the Mk2 and AMCA to develop and mature without loss of capability.Vivek K wrote:I50 Mirages would have kept Rafales out. The Rafale fleet therefore plus the M2K fleet size should be that much to counter two hostile neighbors. So another 36 Rafales should be purchased ASAP and delivered quickly. This would allow time for the Mk2 and AMCA to develop and mature without loss of capability. LCA Mk2 can definitely replace the Jag + Mig -27 fleets. IAF should be looking to grow to 45 squadrons. LCA can help with that enhancement.
Increased deliveries can come, but the Govt will have to pay for the increased delivery schedule.Vivek K wrote:Realize this, a new order will mean first deliveries at least 3 years from the contract signing and perhaps total deliveries in 3 years from that date. Is that schedule optimal for national security? Can alternatives be available earlier?
There is no point in yet another "phoren" 4th generation fighter with the purchase of Rafale. So anything with a new OEM will take longer than three years. This is our MoD after all. Buying additional Rafales will take three years at minimum, because the infrastructure is already set up. So nothing to re-invent. Thus any phoren fighter will take a minimum of three years.
The only other alternative will be a local fighter i.e. Tejas. But the same scenario exists here as well, as with the recent order of 83 Tejas Mk1As. The first batch of fighters will arrive only by early 2024, as the deal was signed on 03 Feb 2021. Again, the three year timeframe stands. That is largely an industry standard. That timeframe can be reduced, but not at this stage. All the Tier 2 and Tier 3 suppliers have to start their manufacturing processes for the Tier 1 integrator to do its job.
The 21 MiG-29s on offer will also take three years for delivery. The 12 Su-30MKIs - also in negotiation - are attrition replacements, but I am unsure how long that will take to arrive. The GOI does not have the money or the political will to purchase 114 phoren fighters. At this stage, another two squadrons of Rafale + 83 Tejas Mk1A + 21 MiG-29s is best and should give the IAF *some* breathing room to reassess the falling squadron strength. Improved serviceability of the present combat fleet is also vital in keeping the numbers up.
This also gives room for the upcoming Tejas Mk2, which is expected to arrive towards the end of this decade. No new fighter - local or phoren - will come earlier anyway. The 21 MiG-29s will arrive only by the middle of this decade, assuming a deal is signed this year. Same with the 83 Tejas Mk1As. Same with another 36 Rafales. And even longer for another 4th generation fighter. So none of these schedules are optimal for national security. And no alternatives can be made available earlier. This is the reality.
In the midst of all this talk of production and delivery schedule, please do not forget a key component - pilot training. A point that is consistently overlooked - not by you - by many on BRF. So even if all the stars align for India and by some divine miracle, 100+ fighters (local or phoren) arrive in a year or two...it will be pointless if there are no qualified pilots to fly them.
Modern combat aircraft require less focus on the flying component and more on the mastery of the avionics and sensors. Just because pilots are available and can understand the basic laws of flight, that does not mean they can exploit the strength of the platform. One cannot expect Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman to fly a Rafale F3R into combat, just because he is qualified to fly a MiG-21 Bison or a Su-30MKI. It does not work that way at all and the IAF is a stickler for rules and safety, as it should be.
There are set syllabus that every pilot, on any platform in service with the IAF, must complete to be fully qualified. And depending on where the pilot is in the training syllabus, he/she can also be deputed to train the new rookies that join the squadron. But training takes time and training a roster of pilots in a squadron takes even longer. There is no magic wand for this. Therefore just adding planes is pointless. Not to mention the CDS is against the idea of doing large purchases, as he recently commented on the MRFA deal and stated staggered purchases are better.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Has this been mentioned officially by the Russians ? 3 Years to deliver 21 aircrafts? IIRC, these jets are already half manufactured and have been mothballed.Rakesh wrote: The 21 MiG-29s on offer will also take three years for delivery.
Last edited by Vips on 24 Jul 2021 04:26, edited 1 time in total.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
They will have to be upgraded to IAF UPG standards as well.Vips wrote:Did your read this somewhere? 3 Years to deliver 21 aircrafts? IIRC, These jets are already half manufactured and have been mothballed.Rakesh wrote: The 21 MiG-29s on offer will also take three years for delivery.
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Yeah but that takes 3 years?
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Try to understand what "half manufactured" and "mothballed" would mean in Russian terms, if all the airframes are even half manufactured in the first place. Remember how long it took to "refurbish" the Gorshkov.Vips wrote:Yeah but that takes 3 years?
Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016
Do not want to go anymore OT but the airframes are ready, the MIG assembly lines are empty, the UPG upgrade program is already something that MIG has experience on so why would it still take 3 years to fill out the airframes?
OK. One reason i can now think of: our payment must be stretching out over 3 years.
OK. One reason i can now think of: our payment must be stretching out over 3 years.