Project 75I - It Begins
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
kit, when does it stop? In another 20 years, we will repeat this.
And believe me, this will not be the last tech import. What stops a future govt - BJP or Congress - to scrap the no-import list?
And believe me, this will not be the last tech import. What stops a future govt - BJP or Congress - to scrap the no-import list?
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
the only way it will is a national policy and or a strong private sector keen on exports., they need to taste blood.Rakesh wrote:kit, when does it stop? In another 20 years, we will repeat this.
And believe me, this will not be the last tech import. What stops a future govt - BJP or Congress - to scrap the no-import list?
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Theories like "national will" and "strong private sector keen on exports" is good for 5th standard civics class. The reality is far different. I do get what you are saying, but the roaches have to leave the motel. And that is easier said than done.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Given the lack of deviation in the sub building plan. I can say that this is the last forign made submarine for the Indian navy. The next one will be a class of 12 subs that will be totally Indian design.Rakesh wrote:Theories like "national will" and "strong private sector keen on exports" is good for 5th standard civics class. The reality is far different. I do get what you are saying, but the roaches have to leave the motel. And that is easier said than done.
Having said that, I still oppose this drama. As we have sufficient capacity in house to design a domestic conventional AIP boat.
We don't need to continue with this drama.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
The skills like welding etc are not easy to master even then. Even Hull making is not something which is easy. By starting something like 75I. All will be lost as there will not be any work for at least a decade or more for sure. When we have serious issue with our lack of numbers in Subs and have some line with some skills ready why we not making use of that.
We do not know what is there in TOT agreement with France. We can always ask for more workshare etc. Even if it is just Screwdrivergiri to be done at our yard, it is better than one more decade or so delay involving lot of junkets to baboons.
We do not know what is there in TOT agreement with France. We can always ask for more workshare etc. Even if it is just Screwdrivergiri to be done at our yard, it is better than one more decade or so delay involving lot of junkets to baboons.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins
SMX 31 should be ideal submarine for navy:
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Lessons from project P-75
Sandeep's viepoint.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-06-07
Xcpt:
In fact the sub numbers could be increased to 8 instead of just 6 which will make it more cost-effective for the two yards.
I would not want a Scorpene+ build for the reasons given by Sandeep on the P=75 programme.We've learnt precious little with that problematic project and zilch TOT. On the other hand,the Arihant SSBN programme appears to be doing v.well,with new boats being launched at regular intervals and improved ones at that. The extra bells and whistles that the IN are asking for the 75I require either a new design or a significant modification of existing types.
As I've said,we should not try and make the P-75Is "jack of all trades,master of none".The priority should be ASW warfare with anti-surface warfare accompanying he subs. Preferably a western boat and here the German U-boats appear to have an advantage over the French Scorpene boats with a superior AIP system. According to the piece,we still have the entire TOT for U-boats with us,a lot which should have some commonality with latest variants,as the mother design for current models was the U-209.
The and attack role can be handed over to our upgraded Kilos,a few more v.welcome, equipped with Kalibir missiles/our desi LRCM,etc. After upgrades these boats from Sandeep's piece will serve us until 2035. From 2030 a new desi multi-role SSG can replace them with whatever inputs are required from a firang OEM. What is already with us ,with the USN and perhaps with the RuN too, is the advent of sub-launched armed drones and UUVs too. Induction of spl. forces using a "backpack" module should be a capability in some measure .
PS: In a long conversation with the then chief on why HDW was chosen over Kockums,he said that initially the Swedes had offered "everything",
unlike the Germans.who realising that they would lose the order, upped their offer to match the Swedes on TOT. After that,the decision was both service and political.In retrospect,given the huge problems OZ has had with their Swedish Collins class subs, the most expensive conv. subs on the plane billions spent in rectifying defects, the IN/GOI decision was the right one. A veteran submariner who served aboard both Ru and German subs, said that HDW had given us some specialised stuff unique to our boats. However, somewhere along the lines greed struck and surreptitiously HDW sold the design to the S.Africans! They however couldn't handle the advanced tech. and decommissioned them. We could've picked them up for a song. Reopening the U-boat line at MDL will be the best option to fast-track sub acquisition. A G-2-G deal would've been the best, can still happen with the P-75I line as a second line parallel line with L&T. Let's hope the P-75I decision isn't delayed beyond 2022.
Sandeep's viepoint.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-06-07
Xcpt:
Sandeep's parallel lines for the subs is a .good idea that should be taken seriously.We're doing the same for the shallow water ASW corvettes,Goa and GRSE building 8 each.Lessons from Project 75
The Defence Ministry clears six P-75I submarines for the Indian Navy. What lessons it must learn from the P-75 Scorpene submarine project
Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi
June 7, 2021
Indian Navy officers on board during the commissioning ceremony of P-75 INS Karanj submarine into the Indian Navy, in Mumbai, on March 10, 2021; Shashank Parade/PTI
On June 4, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh cleared the acquisition of six Project 75 ‘India’ class submarines for the Indian Navy. The Rs 43,000-crore contract will be awarded to a consortium of an Indian submarine builder and a foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer under the MoD’s Strategic Partnership model.
It aims to give the navy a fleet of modern conventional submarines with greater endurance and capabilities than the present one. India’s submarine fleet is ageing—the bulk of its 15 boats are over 25 years old. Its adversaries are boosting their underwater platforms—Pakistan will field 11 conventional submarines by the end of this decade.
The P-75‘I’ contract will be awarded to MDL (Mazagon Docks Ltd) or Larsen &Toubro. The two firms will need to tie up with one of four submarine builders—France’s Naval Group, Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Russia’s Rosoboronexport (Rubin Design Bureau) and Spain’s Navantia. The Indian Navy is to shortly issue Request for Proposals (RFPs) for this project, but given the tortuously slow MoD procedures, even a 2024 contract signing date seems optimistic. The aims of the P-75’I’ project are lofty. The ‘I’ symbolises the attempt to give India the ability to design and produce submarines as part of a 30-year submarine building programme. The goal is to produce 24 conventional submarines by 2030 (now been reduced to 18). The MoD will also need to create an indigenous industrial ecosystem to support the building and maintaining of conventional submarines in India.
Here’s what the MoD needs to keep in mind as it proceeds:
1) India has wasted millions in paying ToT (transfer of technology) fees to foreign OEMs but has not acquired the capability to design and build submarines.
India is the world’s only major submarine-operating country that has not designed and built its own submarines. This is a glaring lapse for a country which inducted submarines over 50 years ago. Yet it was not for want of money. Over four decades, millions of dollars have been spent in obtaining submarine-building expertise from Germany, France and Russia. Yet for various reasons, the Submarine Design Group (SDG), the Indian Navy’s inhouse design organisation, has failed to absorb the capability to design and develop an Indian submarine. In 1981, India signed a contract with West Germany’s HDW to buy four Type 1500 conventional submarines but, more crucially, to acquire submarine-building knowhow. Project officials say the transfer of ToT from West Germany was comprehensive and the plan was to build the fifth and sixth submarines using completely indigenous submarine technology. The company was blacklisted in 1987 on suspicion of bribery, after four submarines had been delivered. In the late 1990s, it paid Russia for design knowhow to build the Arihant-class nuclear submarines. With the blacklist on HDW still on, India signed a contract with the Franco-Spanish consortium Armaris in October 2005 to buy six Scorpene conventional submarines. This contract included transfer of design knowhow. Three submarines are currently in service and three more are due to be delivered by 2023.
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2. A need to audit Project 75
The defence ministry needs to carefully audit Project 75, the ‘buy and make’ order for six Scorpene submarines signed in October 2005. This is also critical not just because France’s Naval Group, which supplied the Scorpenes, is also in the reckoning for Project 75‘I’ but also for one other important reason. Project officials say nearly 30 per cent of the Rs 19,000 crore contract cost went towards ToT. This meant that by the sixth Scorpene submarine, India should have been self-sufficient in designing and building submarines, the way it is now for warships. The P-75’I’ would have then segued into a line of Indian designed submarines. This has clearly not happened. What did MDL do with the Transfer of Design Documents (TDD) it received from Armaris, the Franco-Spanish consortium (including DCNS--now Naval Group) that sold the Scorpenes. This TDD went from France to MDL and from the MDL to the DG SDG. It was never utilised. In the 1980s, HDW transferred to MDL all the design blueprints on thousands of microfilms, and microfilm readers were supplied to interpret those designs. These were not utilised because the firm was blacklisted.
3. Why was no indigeneous ecosystem created?
The original 2005 contract was between MDL and Armaris. If the MDL-Armaris contract was an ideal one and all the terms of the contract abided with, then MDL should have established an indigenous supply chain to source components from Indian suppliers. This did not happen. The cost of the contract escalated substantially when MDL-Procured Materials or MPM were added on to the contract. MPM was material that was procured for MDL by the French firm. Project officials say this is what subverted India’s ability to indigenously source the items and manufacture. More than 60 per cent of the Scorpene, including the combat management system and sensors, are imported. Would the same be repeated with the P-75‘I’ contract?
4. Can Project 75 segue into the P75 ‘I’?
India currently operates three different types of conventional submarines from Russia, France and Germany. All three have separate training and spares and procurement. Each submarine has its own distinct build, maintenance and operational philosophy. Russian and French boats, for instance, are completely different in their power supplies, types of motors, control systems, operations and standard operating procedures. A bulk of India’s conventional submarine fleet is over 25 years old and life extensions will see most of them in service for 15 more years. The P-75‘I’, therefore, offers a chance to stabilise the entire submarine line on an in-service platform, whether French, Russian or German. By 2023, the navy will operate six Scorpene submarines which will be in service until 2050 and beyond. Feedback from the current fleet of Scorpene submarines should inform the decision on the choice of the P-75‘I’. Would a lengthened ‘Super Scorpene’ with additional sections for AIP (air-independent propulsion) and weapons be more cost-effective than a whole new class of submarines?
5) Can both industrial partners form a consortium to speed up submarine production?
MDL and L&T, the only two Indian shipyards with submarine-building experience, are national strategic assets. MDL has delivered two HDW Type 1500 submarines to the navy and three Scorpene submarines. L&T has fabricated hulls of four 6,000-tonne Arihant class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines at its facility in Hazira and integrated them at the Shipbuilding Centre in Visakhapatnam. The P-75 ‘I’ contract will be placed on one shortlisted firm. The MoD could perhaps consider a consortium of both firms to produce the submarines to drastically cut down on delivery schedules. A linear build programme will see the six submarines delivered by 2036 at the earliest. Parallel production by MDL-L&T could halve this delivery schedule.
In fact the sub numbers could be increased to 8 instead of just 6 which will make it more cost-effective for the two yards.
I would not want a Scorpene+ build for the reasons given by Sandeep on the P=75 programme.We've learnt precious little with that problematic project and zilch TOT. On the other hand,the Arihant SSBN programme appears to be doing v.well,with new boats being launched at regular intervals and improved ones at that. The extra bells and whistles that the IN are asking for the 75I require either a new design or a significant modification of existing types.
As I've said,we should not try and make the P-75Is "jack of all trades,master of none".The priority should be ASW warfare with anti-surface warfare accompanying he subs. Preferably a western boat and here the German U-boats appear to have an advantage over the French Scorpene boats with a superior AIP system. According to the piece,we still have the entire TOT for U-boats with us,a lot which should have some commonality with latest variants,as the mother design for current models was the U-209.
The and attack role can be handed over to our upgraded Kilos,a few more v.welcome, equipped with Kalibir missiles/our desi LRCM,etc. After upgrades these boats from Sandeep's piece will serve us until 2035. From 2030 a new desi multi-role SSG can replace them with whatever inputs are required from a firang OEM. What is already with us ,with the USN and perhaps with the RuN too, is the advent of sub-launched armed drones and UUVs too. Induction of spl. forces using a "backpack" module should be a capability in some measure .
PS: In a long conversation with the then chief on why HDW was chosen over Kockums,he said that initially the Swedes had offered "everything",
unlike the Germans.who realising that they would lose the order, upped their offer to match the Swedes on TOT. After that,the decision was both service and political.In retrospect,given the huge problems OZ has had with their Swedish Collins class subs, the most expensive conv. subs on the plane billions spent in rectifying defects, the IN/GOI decision was the right one. A veteran submariner who served aboard both Ru and German subs, said that HDW had given us some specialised stuff unique to our boats. However, somewhere along the lines greed struck and surreptitiously HDW sold the design to the S.Africans! They however couldn't handle the advanced tech. and decommissioned them. We could've picked them up for a song. Reopening the U-boat line at MDL will be the best option to fast-track sub acquisition. A G-2-G deal would've been the best, can still happen with the P-75I line as a second line parallel line with L&T. Let's hope the P-75I decision isn't delayed beyond 2022.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
One important point that has not been purposefully not highlighted is the fact that 'P-75I' will give critical exposure to L&T which will help us immensely in our SSN project..
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins
The most crucial element in the Navy's SSN program is the need for a bigger powerful reactor. Not sure what the p75i can contribute here. Hull design and manufacture and other systems, have already been learned and put into play in the arihant.dinesha wrote:One important point that has not been purposefully not highlighted is the fact that 'P-75I' will give critical exposure to L&T which will help us immensely in our SSN project..
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
I think on that score from prev. reports,the future larger variants of the AH will have a more powerful reactor since they're going to carry 12-16 missiles
I don't think that obtaining a more powerful reactor design from Ru will also pose a problem,which could be part of a package deal for Akula leases.It all depends upon the size of the SSN,hull dia.,etc.
I don't think that obtaining a more powerful reactor design from Ru will also pose a problem,which could be part of a package deal for Akula leases.It all depends upon the size of the SSN,hull dia.,etc.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
However, I remember reading on this forum alone that scaling up on the reactors has been a challenge. I am just not able to find an online source on this.Philip wrote:I think on that score from prev. reports,the future larger variants of the AH will have a more powerful reactor since they're going to carry 12-16 missiles
I don't think that obtaining a more powerful reactor design from Ru will also pose a problem,which could be part of a package deal for Akula leases.It all depends upon the size of the SSN,hull dia.,etc.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
https://mobile.twitter.com/SandeepUnnit ... 4695312384
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-06-10
Sandeep
@SandeepUnnithan
Need to hold a steady course on defence progs- #SouthKorea and India bought HDW subs in 1980s…today SoKo is offering us a variant of the HDW sub for #Project75I
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-06-10
On June 4, India’s defence ministry kicked off the process to acquire six conventional submarines for Rs 43,000 crore. Requests for proposals will soon be issued to five foreign firms that will collaborate with two Indian shipyards. The winning consortium will be awarded the contract. It is India’s third attempt to build a conventional submarine with a foreign technology partner in the last 40 years. The first attempt was in 1981 when India contracted to buy four HDW Type 209s from West Germany. The company was blacklisted in 1987, and in 2005, India placed another order for six Scorpene submarines from Armaris of France. Bafflingly, none of these contracts--which included huge sums for transfer of technology (ToT)--have yielded a conventional submarine design for India. The P-75I represents a third attempt to acquire submarine-building expertise and technology from a foreign OEM. South Korea’s stellar track record in submarine construction is worth a closer study here. In the 1980s, South Korea was like India, completely dependent on imported platforms and designs. In 1987, South Korea imported a version of the same HDW design which India had bought six years earlier, then license-built it and finally mastered the design to build its own completely indigenous line of submarines--the 3,000 tonne KSS-3. A version of this design is now being offered to India for the P-75I by South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering Co Ltd (DSME). India’s ambitious 30-year submarine building plan meant to field 18 conventional submarines, meanwhile, stumbles along in fits and starts.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Complete waste of SSK ToT!
No more follow-on Type-1500 (ToT thrown out 1990s)
No more follow-on Scorpene (ToT about to be dustbin-ed 2020s)
… No more follow-on Type-75I (after the initial contacted 6 — ToT lost in the 2040s)
The gap between each is counted in decades; so many dry years that the skills acquired dies with the retirements of those who worked with the technology.
The cycle continues…
No more follow-on Type-1500 (ToT thrown out 1990s)
No more follow-on Scorpene (ToT about to be dustbin-ed 2020s)
… No more follow-on Type-75I (after the initial contacted 6 — ToT lost in the 2040s)
The gap between each is counted in decades; so many dry years that the skills acquired dies with the retirements of those who worked with the technology.
The cycle continues…
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
The sad thing is decades of this and little seems to be learnt. Is the goal to build indigenous capability or simply buy a new sub every so often?srai wrote:Complete waste of SSK ToT!
No more Type-1500 (ToT thrown out)
No more Scorpene (ToT about to be dustbin-ed)
… No more Type-75I (after the contacted 6)
The gap between each is counted in decades; so many years that the skills acquired dies with the retirements of those who worked.
The cycle continues…
We just do not act like other countries trying to build a homegrown industry. It's not only Korea. Turkey is another country who started with a HDW Type 209.
As we are looking around for partners to build an AIP machine, the Turks had received their first AIP sub from their own shipyard and will be getting 5 more.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AceJaceu/sta ... 9903802369
Overall, our capacity for indigenous military hardware should be much greater than SoKorea or Turkey. India is a continental-sized country with a military budget that is the fourth largest in the world (despite all the issues with money.) There should be far more resources available to us than the Koreans or Turks. The issue had always been the goals and the planning.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
^^^^ Korea ordered 9 Submarines in 1993 with Daewoo and all of them were delivered by 2001 ie 9 Submarines in 8 years
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
No investment in R&D following a ToT. ToT has become like a job creation/sloganeering tool...recent trend of involving private industries are encouraging but will not yield any long term benefits if no opportunities for R&D/product development are created following ToT.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Japan took over largescale shipbuilding from Europeans in the 60s. Koreans emerged in late 80s. They are one of the largest shipmakers today. The Chinese emerged in early 2000s.Vips wrote:^^^^ Korea ordered 9 Submarines in 1993 with Daewoo and all of them were delivered by 2001 ie 9 Submarines in 8 years
The capability to build naval ships is synonymous with having a large shipbuilding industry to cater to commercial requirements. The growing strength of the Chinese Navy underlines this.
India has too many small shipyards. We need to consolidate.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
You cannot compare the lazy bureaucratic riddled government ship builders with efficient private firms. Give it some time, L&T can do better than that.Vips wrote:^^^^ Korea ordered 9 Submarines in 1993 with Daewoo and all of them were delivered by 2001 ie 9 Submarines in 8 years
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Before anything thing can happen. The Indian government needs to grow a brain.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
No orders; no further investments. The problem is compounded by small orders and then lack of follow on orders to sustain the local ecosystem. Doesn’t matter whether public or private, both will suffer the same fate if no more orders.Zynda wrote:No investment in R&D following a ToT. ToT has become like a job creation/sloganeering tool...recent trend of involving private industries are encouraging but will not yield any long term benefits if no opportunities for R&D/product development are created following ToT.
There seems to be a “lust” for the next best technology when the current technology ToT haven’t even been mastered, let alone utilized to fuller extent instead of collecting dust. In those aspirational pursuits, bird in hand rots while hunting for the next bigger one remains elusive.
What should have been a cautionary tale with Type-1500 is but repeating itself with P-75. Decades from now, it will be the next cautionary tale!
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Sirs No point in crying over spilt milk so to say!!
We as a nation have taken a long long time from Socialist republic to private entrepreneur with no revulsion for the Nuovo Riche !!
What with secure gobermint jobs in PSU all producing defence equipment's even screwdrivergiri notwithstanding, I can fairly safely say that 40% of Bengaluru population depended on the PSU.s from late 60's to 90's. With a strong Labour Unions all voted Cong.
It was all 'Roti Kapada aur Makhan' and to hell with the TOT from workers to Mid-level or Upper level executives!
And that helped the Baboos and Politicians and Defence Personnel so that they keep buying more stuff off the shelf or screw drivergiri (with TOT just to cross the t's and dot the i's)
Dhanush is a prime example of it!!!
The Troika of Baboos+Politicos+Defence (with a caveat of those with an axe to grind) have carried this one for skimming the the 'Malai' for long long time and it ain't going to change over night!!
We will see more Armata/Scorpene/Rafale/guns/dress/boots yada yada for another few decades(and I sincerely hope not!!)
We as a nation have taken a long long time from Socialist republic to private entrepreneur with no revulsion for the Nuovo Riche !!
What with secure gobermint jobs in PSU all producing defence equipment's even screwdrivergiri notwithstanding, I can fairly safely say that 40% of Bengaluru population depended on the PSU.s from late 60's to 90's. With a strong Labour Unions all voted Cong.
It was all 'Roti Kapada aur Makhan' and to hell with the TOT from workers to Mid-level or Upper level executives!
And that helped the Baboos and Politicians and Defence Personnel so that they keep buying more stuff off the shelf or screw drivergiri (with TOT just to cross the t's and dot the i's)
Dhanush is a prime example of it!!!
The Troika of Baboos+Politicos+Defence (with a caveat of those with an axe to grind) have carried this one for skimming the the 'Malai' for long long time and it ain't going to change over night!!
We will see more Armata/Scorpene/Rafale/guns/dress/boots yada yada for another few decades(and I sincerely hope not!!)
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
https://static.pib.gov.in/WriteReadData ... %20MOD.pdf
Have hope guys. As per the negative list above, released last year, Item no 80 i.e Conventional Submarines cannot be imported (Import embargo) after Dec 2021.
We still have 6 months to go before year ends.
The team that made the list would have been in a different Silo viz a viz the one which issued the RFP.
Code: Select all
77. Mine Anti-Personnel Blast Dec 2021
78. Multipurpose Grenade Dec 2021
79. Inertial Navigation System for Ship Application Dec 2021
80. Conventional Submarines Dec 2021
We still have 6 months to go before year ends.
The team that made the list would have been in a different Silo viz a viz the one which issued the RFP.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
This is well and good. But a strategic partnership is different from outright purchase of a conventional submarine.arvin wrote:https://static.pib.gov.in/WriteReadData ... %20MOD.pdf
Have hope guys. As per the negative list above, released last year, Item no 80 i.e Conventional Submarines cannot be imported (Import embargo) after Dec 2021.Code: Select all
77. Mine Anti-Personnel Blast Dec 2021 78. Multipurpose Grenade Dec 2021 79. Inertial Navigation System for Ship Application Dec 2021 80. Conventional Submarines Dec 2021
We still have 6 months to go before year ends.
The team that made the list would have been in a different Silo viz a viz the one which issued the RFP.
After the type 209, scorpion, and Arihant. India should not be needing this hand holding.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Agree 100 % with you saar. Even the SSN design is also frozen. We are overflowing with submarine blueprints, but MOD still doesnt have the courage to allocate funds for local SSK manufacture based on any of the design above.
The Dec 2021 deadline should have purpose. Meaning it should indicate conclusion of some activity.
P75I conventional submarine will not conclude for another 10 years and I have a bad sinking feeling that this would be messed up badly.
That was sarcasm above, since there was no logic in inserting Dec 2021 deadline for Conventional Sub and was serving no purpose.
The Dec 2021 deadline should have purpose. Meaning it should indicate conclusion of some activity.
P75I conventional submarine will not conclude for another 10 years and I have a bad sinking feeling that this would be messed up badly.
That was sarcasm above, since there was no logic in inserting Dec 2021 deadline for Conventional Sub and was serving no purpose.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
why did we not do this, not just for the subs but for all weapons platforms that we imported
who could/would have stopped us except our own
and all the skilled workers that we trained and developed so very expensively, ultimately benefitted the muslim shipyards and navies in the gulf.
who could/would have stopped us except our own
and all the skilled workers that we trained and developed so very expensively, ultimately benefitted the muslim shipyards and navies in the gulf.
via@SandeepUnnithanNeed to hold a steady course on defence progs-
#SouthKorea and India bought HDW subs in 1980s…today SoKo is offering us a variant of the HDW sub for #Project75I
https://indiatoday.in/india-today-insig ... 2021-06-10
The P-75I represents a third attempt to acquire submarine-building expertise and technology from a foreign OEM. South Korea’s stellar track record in submarine construction is worth a closer study here. In the 1980s, South Korea was like India, completely dependent on imported platforms and designs. In 1987, South Korea imported a version of the same HDW design which India had bought six years earlier, then license-built it and finally mastered the design to build its own completely indigenous line of submarines--the 3,000 tonne KSS-3. A version of this design is now being offered to India for the P-75I by South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering Co Ltd (DSME).
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Might be an obvious question here, but if a SSN design exists, and a SSK design does not, why not junk the plan for conventional subs altogether and switch to SSNs entirely?
Is it the limited availability of uranium that is forcing a compromise to go with conventional subs in the interim while more uranium resources are explored?
Is it the limited availability of uranium that is forcing a compromise to go with conventional subs in the interim while more uranium resources are explored?
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Cost and I have that from the horses’ mouth.
Unless the Navy’s share of the defence budget miraculously increases, SSKs are there to stay.
Unless the Navy’s share of the defence budget miraculously increases, SSKs are there to stay.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Very good Morning everyone !
I'm not here to console each&every viewpoints on 75I & related decision taken by GoI including Nval bureau..
In gwneral, the decisions so far is for the good!
You have to see for yourself!
Bye, Have a very goid weekdays!
I'm not here to console each&every viewpoints on 75I & related decision taken by GoI including Nval bureau..
In gwneral, the decisions so far is for the good!
You have to see for yourself!
Bye, Have a very goid weekdays!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins
P75I - is just the proverbial Fin that you see above the sea. My Paanwallah says that it is to 'activate' the sub building line at L&T, which so far has only been building hulls/ pieces of the Arihant will need to have 'hands on' experience of building a 'full conventional sub'. Yes, L&T is involved in the S-Series (Arihant), but the main yard is building the hulls which are then assembled at the SBC.
The bigger game here is qualifying the AIP system in a proven hull - with most of the integration knowhow and liability with an experienced partner. The AIP then can be integrated with our own P76 SSK design - which if the paanwallah is to be believed is at a very advanced stage with only 'Diesel-Electric' propulsion. Integrating the AIP in that design is what will be done.
Additionally - the P75I will allow shoring up our depleting fleet quickly while also acting as the tech demonstrator for the AIP.
Another project is also in the works and we shall hear of it soon - delayed by a year due to the pandemic - but really soon.
While Rahul has correctly pointed out the 'operational cost and lifecycle cost' of the SSK vs SSN another aspect is that the SSK's tend to be better in the shallower seas close to our borders. SSN's are better for 'long range, long endurance' patrol/ attack while SSK's are better to 'hold the lines' IMHO.
The bigger game here is qualifying the AIP system in a proven hull - with most of the integration knowhow and liability with an experienced partner. The AIP then can be integrated with our own P76 SSK design - which if the paanwallah is to be believed is at a very advanced stage with only 'Diesel-Electric' propulsion. Integrating the AIP in that design is what will be done.
Additionally - the P75I will allow shoring up our depleting fleet quickly while also acting as the tech demonstrator for the AIP.
Another project is also in the works and we shall hear of it soon - delayed by a year due to the pandemic - but really soon.
While Rahul has correctly pointed out the 'operational cost and lifecycle cost' of the SSK vs SSN another aspect is that the SSK's tend to be better in the shallower seas close to our borders. SSN's are better for 'long range, long endurance' patrol/ attack while SSK's are better to 'hold the lines' IMHO.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
^^^
Nothing quick about it so far …
Check out the first post in this P75I thread from Oct 2014.
Nothing quick about it so far …
Check out the first post in this P75I thread from Oct 2014.
Almost 7-years and counting… not even closeWill
BRFite
Project 75I - It Begins
25 Oct 2014 18:06
This is the next awaited big ticket project. Finally cleared and the RFP should be out soon. Lets track it here. Hope it doesn't turn into another saga though in way it already kinda is...
http://idrw.org/?p=45766#more-45766
Looks like Private Shipyards are going to get a shot at this.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
I am planning to file RTI to get the cost of chai, biskoot and samosa for reaching this stage after 7 years. Also how much is planned for next 7 years.
Jokes apart, the sunk cost on Scorpene (and Rafale too) will make it difficult for any competitor to match them in price.
My guess is only S-80 will come close to Scorpene since both share a common design heritage. There could be commonality in manufacturing and equipment used.
Dont let the line idle. Keep it active for 6 more Scorpenes until P-75I concludes (when?). Use it for integrating DRDO AIP. That would be our design so compensate France in some other way say Hi-speed rail corridor using TGV.
Navy's Lithium ion battery project will conclude in 2 years (After contract signing). After Kilos go Lithium, Scorpenes can be tried out next.
L&T yard can be used for SSN while MDL focuses on SSK.
https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/def ... download=1
Jokes apart, the sunk cost on Scorpene (and Rafale too) will make it difficult for any competitor to match them in price.
My guess is only S-80 will come close to Scorpene since both share a common design heritage. There could be commonality in manufacturing and equipment used.
Dont let the line idle. Keep it active for 6 more Scorpenes until P-75I concludes (when?). Use it for integrating DRDO AIP. That would be our design so compensate France in some other way say Hi-speed rail corridor using TGV.
Navy's Lithium ion battery project will conclude in 2 years (After contract signing). After Kilos go Lithium, Scorpenes can be tried out next.
L&T yard can be used for SSN while MDL focuses on SSK.
https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/def ... download=1
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
^^^
To better utilize ToT, the quantity ordered should be larger (minimum 10 units) broken into two parts:
The 10-unit orders are large enough that it could be split between two shipyards. Parallel development of strategic industries in both public and private units. The IN benefits from concurrent deliveries.
Main benefit is the continuity it provides for almost two decades for the local shipyards and their supplier/manufacturer ecosystem. Enough time to progress those learning into more and more indigenous efforts—part by part or component by component. MLU in 10-20-30 years also provides know-how continuity and further opportunities at indigenization.
While the first 10-unit order is being executed, the IN/MoD/DRDO/shipyards should be looking two decades out and progressing the next 10-unit order. No gap between first 10 and the next 10. Continuity in both orders being placed and orders being executed.
To better utilize ToT, the quantity ordered should be larger (minimum 10 units) broken into two parts:
- 4-units
- 6 follow-on units (with more indigenous content)
The 10-unit orders are large enough that it could be split between two shipyards. Parallel development of strategic industries in both public and private units. The IN benefits from concurrent deliveries.
Main benefit is the continuity it provides for almost two decades for the local shipyards and their supplier/manufacturer ecosystem. Enough time to progress those learning into more and more indigenous efforts—part by part or component by component. MLU in 10-20-30 years also provides know-how continuity and further opportunities at indigenization.
While the first 10-unit order is being executed, the IN/MoD/DRDO/shipyards should be looking two decades out and progressing the next 10-unit order. No gap between first 10 and the next 10. Continuity in both orders being placed and orders being executed.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Navantia is working on it's own Lithium ion project by working with French battery expert SAFT.
There is a possibility the S-80 offered for P75I would be Li-ion if this link is to believed. This was published last year.
http://www.spsmai.com/news/?id=450&q=Na ... submarines
If they succeed in getting 20% more energy density over usual Li battery and that combined with bio-ethanol AIP, it would be a serious contender in the endurance match.
There is a possibility the S-80 offered for P75I would be Li-ion if this link is to believed. This was published last year.
http://www.spsmai.com/news/?id=450&q=Na ... submarines
Even if one company offers Li-ion, all others have to follow suit else the difference in endurance with lead acid will be significant.Navantia has awarded SAFT a contract to cooperate in a R&D project named “BALIT” for the development of latest-generation Lithium-ion batteries for submarines that are aimed to deliver 20% more energy density than last-decade Lithium-ion battery technologies.
Project ‘BALIT’ will consider Navantia’s design for P75(I) India as baseline design for implementation of the new batteries.
If they succeed in getting 20% more energy density over usual Li battery and that combined with bio-ethanol AIP, it would be a serious contender in the endurance match.
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- BRFite
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Govt can evaluate splitting P75I submarine contract between two bidders: Mazagon Shipbuilders
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 40401.html
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 40401.html
L&T likely to be the second partner, if the govt decides to share the project. It takes eight years from the awarding of the contract to the handing over of the first submarine. Splitting the project between two firms can cut down delivery time. Given the geopolitical situation, the govt may not like the project to be delayed
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
If that is on the cards then the number of subs has to increase as well. Because no time can be lost.
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- BRFite
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- Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Splitting the order to both L&T and MDL would give only 3 Subs in each line...
Logical thing to do is develop a new design under Project 76 based on this design and give 3+3 orders... That would ensure both commonality and continuity...
Logical thing to do is develop a new design under Project 76 based on this design and give 3+3 orders... That would ensure both commonality and continuity...
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Just use the HDW design for which we have blueprints and start designed and build. Forget all export, licence and all that rubbish. I am sure we will get there by putting time and effort and cash of course.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
+1 to that. HDW will be more than willing to sell any incremental improvements for that.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
I am sure we can also make some effort on any improvements as time goes on. We can do it if there is political Will and time and money is allotted to this effort. I feel sick when I read this "tech transfer" rubbish.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
I suspect SOKO will get the order . We will get HDW + SOKO tech and Soko will invest heavy in elctronic industry in Bharat: In which Japan is reluctant and Euros won't do . France will get its share of pie in extra 36 Rafales.Yagnasri wrote:Just use the HDW design for which we have blueprints and start designed and build. Forget all export, licence and all that rubbish. I am sure we will get there by putting time and effort and cash of course.