2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jul 2021 09:39

Ji is like garu or andi in Telugu. Mark of respect.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Jul 2021 09:46

Thanks arshyam for helping me to continue my discovery of India.

Why do southerners not bleat on about martial races? Or is it that they recognise, to quote Arif Aajakia on those who became privileged by being co-opted (speaking of Pakistan’s foreign minister Quereshi) “inke baap daada angrezon ke kute nahelate hote the”. (The sires of such people were employed to bathe the britishers’ dogs).

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 01 Jul 2021 09:51

Duplicate

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 01 Jul 2021 09:52

Perhaps you haven't come across Bants or Coorgis. The British nominated "martial races" in the south as well.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Jul 2021 10:25

I’ve only met a couple of Coorgis ( I mistakenly thought they were from the north), but I don’t think they wear their British collaboration as a badge of honour.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Jul 2021 10:33

There are not "well educated" by the British about their marshalli mardangi like sikhs. They are also not having "benefit" of paki madarasa logic like many Khalisthanis.

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 01 Jul 2021 11:10

rsingh wrote:
Rsatchi wrote:and folks please call me Rajesh
and NO ji thanks
I see this 0ften among Brite. What is wrong in somebody 'JI'. It is normal Infian way Why so much hatered for this word. Why it insults you? Why you are happy with world 'folks'? We are not bad land ranch cowbiys . To us (Indians at least) word 'folks was introduced via rough talk in Hollywood films. Why unharmed and humble word 'ji ' irritates some of us? That is 1 Rupee question.
Nothing personal. Just felt to bring this out. And one more thing .Word 'ji' does not make you backwards and old. It kind you politeness. It is not only for old people.

RsinghJi
Aap mujhe koyi bhi naam se ullke kijiye I have no objections.
Ji=Sir, so Mujhe sir ki uphadi se nafrath nahi but chaahath bhi nahin

And I felt if people use my real moniker I feel much closer to the group than a distant 'internet-warrior'

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 01 Jul 2021 11:18

"""And I am from 'Karunaadu'(aka karnataka) but mother and father made sure all their children attended Dakshin Bharath Hindi Prachar Sabha classes and lots of gujju and marwardi classmates to learn and practice mathrabhasha

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 01 Jul 2021 11:19

Yes, it is nowhere near as egregious with these southern "martial races" as with the Khalistanis. Also, they were never bombarded with the sort of massive social-engineering campaign used to sow disaffection between Sikhs & Hindus, which the British mounted through agents like Kahn Singh Nabha. (In the South, the British used Appa Caldwell's Dravidian identitarianism for such purposes).

Nonetheless, there are some commonalities. For example I have heard some Coorgis start ranting against "Brahmins" out of the blue. What did Brahmins ever do to them? F alone knows.

I think the answer lies in the fact that British messaging to all their chosen "martial race" communities involved a set package of themes:
1) You are brave, loyal, masculine, and have a tradition of fighting. Therefore we respect you more than these other Indians, and we ask you to join the cause of civilizing this savage land for King & Country.
2) We especially respect you more than the weak & cowardly Hindoos of "non-martial" races. So we ask you to assist us in ruling them.
3) We most especially recognize that you are better than these evil, cunning Brahmins. We urge you to recognize that your "real" oppressors are not us, but the Brahmins with their treachery & superstition.

I think this kind of indoctrination has left its stain on the mindset of many "martial races" even 75 years later.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Jul 2021 12:29

My apologies, Its indeed Col. Bikkumalla Santosh Babu, MVC. Inadvertant error regretted.

Full profile : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Santosh_Babu

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Jul 2021 12:32

^^ Good summary, Rudradev-ji. Recency is another reason - the huge Madras army of old (like today's Gorkhas, there were 6-7 active Madras regiments at one point, as opposed to a single regiment today) is too distant in the past to be remembered. There is little societal memory of those days.

English education is another - the south was on it's way to "non-martial-ness" by the time English education took off. It took off strongly in the south and east, specifically TN & Bengal. This education was not aimed at making Indians better, but produce more clerks for Macaulay and his ilk. So, little emphasis on the warrior traditions of these regions.

One more factor according to me is bhaiwood - they have made many films about military campaigns/wars, but most of them show the herrow belonging to Punjab or Sikh regiments. If not, there will a lot of prominent Sikh characters in the film, which keeps re-emphasizing the same thought process. Not saying it is not accurate, Sikhs are indeed high in number, but when have we seen a movie show a Bihar or Rajput regiment (to take an example)?

In a perverse way, the cinema factor is the reverse in the south. Speaking of Tamil land at least, thanks to entrenched dravidianism, there are hardly any films about military campaigns, let alone talk about Madras regiment in a way that people could connect with. Sure, there is the odd herrow here and there who will be a soldier, but it's not that common. Also, a single character being a soldier is just that - it is no reflection on the society around him. So how will the average guy feel his community is martial? So most of us have internalized that we are not aggressive, and it comes as a big surprise to most Tamil folk that TN is the largest contributor to the Army from the south (per capita, KL is actually higher, but I am referring to raw numbers).

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 01 Jul 2021 13:22

arshyam wrote:^^ Good summary, Rudradev-ji. Recency is another reason - the huge Madras army of old (like today's Gorkhas, there were 6-7 active Madras regiments at one point, as opposed to a single regiment today) is too distant in the past to be remembered. There is little societal memory of those days.

English education is another - the south was on it's way to "non-martial-ness" by the time English education took off. It took off strongly in the south and east, specifically TN & Bengal. This education was not aimed at making Indians better, but produce more clerks for Macaulay and his ilk. So, little emphasis on the warrior traditions of these regions.

One more factor according to me is bhaiwood - they have made many films about military campaigns/wars, but most of them show the herrow belonging to Punjab or Sikh regiments. If not, there will a lot of prominent Sikh characters in the film, which keeps re-emphasizing the same thought process. Not saying it is not accurate, Sikhs are indeed high in number, but when have we seen a movie show a Bihar or Rajput regiment (to take an example)?

In a perverse way, the cinema factor is the reverse in the south. Speaking of Tamil land at least, thanks to entrenched dravidianism, there are hardly any films about military campaigns, let alone talk about Madras regiment in a way that people could connect with. Sure, there is the odd herrow here and there who will be a soldier, but it's not that common. Also, a single character being a soldier is just that - it is no reflection on the society around him. So how will the average guy feel his community is martial? So most of us have internalized that we are not aggressive, and it comes as a big surprise to most Tamil folk that TN is the largest contributor to the Army from the south (per capita, KL is actually higher, but I am referring to raw numbers).

Not to mention Total break from and lack of pride in Warrior Traditions pioneered and adopted by South Indian Imperial dynasties such as Satvahanas, Cholas, Kadambas, Pallavas, Chalukyas, Rashtrakutas, Vijaynagar etc. Now the only purpose in life for most is landing a soul sucking corporate job and sitting in a 3ft × 3ft cubicle for rest of your life.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Jul 2021 13:40

darshhan wrote:Not to mention Total break from and lack of pride in Warrior Traditions pioneered and adopted by South Indian Imperial dynasties such as Satvahanas, Cholas, Kadambas, Pallavas, Chalukyas, Rashtrakutas, Vijaynagar etc.

Err, not really - these dynasties pre-date the British by a few centuries at minimum, and the warrior tradition did exist by the time British showed up. The suppression is more recent.

darshhan wrote:Now the only purpose in life for most is landing a soul sucking corporate job and sitting in a 3ft × 3ft cubicle for rest of your life.

And this is true for most Indians today, irrespective of region.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Jul 2021 14:06

Err...Isn't it normal and to be expected that martial tendencies get reinforced or diluted based on perceived threat levels ? Why is it surprising/regrettable that many people prefer comfy desk jobs when you have a large, well funded and trained national army to defend you ? Isn't that the whole point ? Which army man/woman wishes their children should also need to train and prepare for war when a less risky and more comfortable life is very much possible? If everyone needs to sharpen swords and sing war songs all the time, it indicates a bigger problem somewhere.

Of course the above doesn't mean one should not recognise the value armed forces bring to the society and stop being grateful and admirative of their qualities.

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 01 Jul 2021 15:22

Arshymaji
Thanks to the post independence secular history teachings regional powers dynasties and empires and kingdoms were never taught properly.
Just an example sir: Everybody know about : Khoob ladi Madrani woh Jhasiwali Rani the!!
But do you know three queens from Karnataka : Rani Chenamma. Keladi Chenamma, Rani Abbakka faought three different foriegn forces and one to save Shivaji's son!!!
Only coast-guard have named a vessel after these brave hearts!! seen any movies made??? Long long ago kannada movie on Chenamma
Not sure if Rastrakuta or Western Chalukaya fought the Islamic invader in the northwest but all we hear ever is valour of north against the invaders!
Was it Hueng Sang or Fa Hein who wrote about Hampi ( another ruin like Babylon) but so much taught about Agra fort.
So how do you expect a recent B Tech Grad to know about his hoary history except what he is being shown on the Telly or Bollywood
All he is interested is Pocket full of dosh!!, evening daru and later a Hookup if possible!!

History?? who needs it!! Anyway there is Bollywood and Telly to teach you

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Jul 2021 15:36

So how do you expect a recent B Tech Grad to about his tradition except what he being shown on the Telly or Bollywood
All he is interested is Pocket full of dosh!!, evening daru and later a Hookup if possible!!
History?? who needs it!! Anyway there is Bollywood and Telly to teach you

Rajesh ji,
I see a lot more hope than that. Social media is full of enthusiasts and experts who post content about forgotten heroes of India. More and more Indian scholars are discovering the reach of SM and are posting original content and discussions/debates. There is lot of dubious or poorly made stuff too, but over time more authentic and richer content will prevail. I'm very eager to see classroom lectures posted by professors of our major universities and institutes. Many US universities have started doing that already, will happen in India too.

All over I see more awareness and accessible information than ever before.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Jul 2021 15:44

and - No one knows about Rani Rudrama Devi of Kakathiyas. Ruled perhaps the largest area of land by any female in History by her own strengths unlike britshit and other queens. Most of the life spent personally fighting her own close relatives who thought they are better than a female, destroyed the pride of rulers of Devagiri when they tried in invade Andradesha in the initial period of her rule and kicked them back up to Devagiri and kept Pandyas and Hoyasalas in check during the entire period of her rule. Died at the age of 80+ fighting a battle which she won in the end.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Jul 2021 15:47

Cyrano wrote: All over I see more awareness and accessible information than ever before.

Very true. People with serious interest can learn a lot from reading online. Not wiki s**t, but serious posts online by many enthusiasts. Historians like Sita Ram Goyal are not there in our colleges degree classes but they are widely read now than ever before.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Jul 2021 15:49

We had studied about Rani Rudrama Devi in school. Its a shame if she no longer figures in today's text books, at least in AP & TL.

IIRC a film and even a TV serial were made on her some years ago, I didn't watch them though.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Jul 2021 16:01

Some of the online content I have come across is fantastic and delightful.

For example, this series (in a regional language like Telugu) on Gnanapith awardee Sri Viswanatha Sathyararayana's epic novel Veyi Padagalu, which has reached over 100,000 people (views). The quality of research, analysis and presentation of this youtuber Sri KiranPrabha is incredible. And there are surely many more gems out there...

If you know Telugu, enjoy thoroughly !

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Jul 2021 17:01

One of the best researched channel on Telugu people and events. Exceptionally good.

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 01 Jul 2021 17:57

What's happening in Punjab???
Is Captain-saab planning a Coup??

Breakaway faction or defect to BJP a la Scindia!!
And that would leave Sachin Pilot to follow suit

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Jul 2021 18:19

Rsatchi wrote:Only coast-guard have named a vessel after these brave hearts!!

To be fair, Indian Railways has an express named after Rani Chennamma, which is how I first heard of her.

Rsatchi wrote:seen any movies made??? Long long ago kannada movie on Chenamma

This is interesting - as I said earlier, the Tamil film industry has turned its back on rich history unless it aids dravidianist propaganda. But what stops the Kannada industry, which as far as I can tell does not suffer from this nonsense, from re-making some of these classics? A bigger budget film like KGF or ASN would definitely work, and can be made multi-lingual if RoI is a concern. I am sure there will be enough interest in such films in KA.

Cyrano wrote:We had studied about Rani Rudrama Devi in school. Its a shame if she no longer figures in today's text books, at least in AP & TL.

I am sure she is still mentioned in Telugu history books. The recent movie revived a lot of interest, so there would have been some controversy had she been omitted. But that's the issue, isn't it - the "national" history books focuses on "national" kings like Ashoka, Guptas, Mughals, etc., outsourcing "regional" history to local language books (not history). I learnt more about the Tamil-region kings in my Tamil language textbooks than my NCERT history textbooks. Krishnadevaraya through old films, Tenali rama, etc. Shivaji merited a paragraph due to guerilla warfare, which we thought was "gorilla" warfare

. I suspect the NCERT folks included Shivaji just because he was a thorn in Aurangazeb's side, and the latter was simply too bad to whitewash. Otherwise, even Shivaji would have been dropped. But they ensured that he was definitely relegated to a Maharashtrian king only - like the Congress of today, whether they had any influence or not, the Mughals commanded the pride of place in those books, followed by the British. In this mileu, forget learning about Rudhrama Devi, Velu Thampy, Lachit Borphukan, Hemu or Suheldev - no chance.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Jul 2021 18:29

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Jul 2021 22:32

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/k ... 2021-07-01
2 Sikh women in J&K who had converted to Islam were not pressured; married of their own will

Last week, Manmeet was dragged out of a car by some Sikh youths as she was heading towards a local court in Srinagar to register her marriage in the court.

Well there we are. Some communities need to dispense with their rigid patriarchal codes. If you can't control your women, learn to respect them.

As an aside one of these women was a Bali. Her ancestors converted out of the Brahmin caste. Sikhs did not have a problem with that.

What goes around, comes around.

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 01 Jul 2021 23:09

sanjaykumar wrote:
As an aside one of these women was a Bali. Her ancestors converted out of the Brahmin caste. Sikhs did not have a problem with that.

What goes around, comes around.

Need some clarification on this by some gurus.
My understanding is that sikhs are Nashik group of Hinduism. In fact it is common to move to Sikh by a family Hindu family member as it is not considered as separate religion. In return sikhs always protect Hindus from Muslim aggression.
This Sikh Hindu division is more superficial than Hindu Muslims bhai bhai...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Jul 2021 23:10

Perhaps Western democracies have much to learn from their Eastern counterparts on how to uphold FoE, should they wish to instill confidence in their own citizens.

Amusing to see neocolonialists lecture a 1.4 billion strong democracy on FoE.

Does racism drive this behavior?

via@suryakane

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Jul 2021 23:44

^^That’s the opium.

Always ask is this lateral movement one way?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 01 Jul 2021 23:55

madhu wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:
As an aside one of these women was a Bali. Her ancestors converted out of the Brahmin caste. Sikhs did not have a problem with that.

What goes around, comes around.
Need some clarification on this by some gurus.
My understanding is that sikhs are Nashik group of Hinduism. In fact it is common to move to Sikh by a family Hindu family member as it is not considered as separate religion. In return sikhs always protect Hindus from Muslim aggression.
This Sikh Hindu division is more superficial than Hindu Muslims bhai bhai...

This is mostly a myth. The reality was much more complex. First of all outside Punjab hardly any Hindu even interacted with a sikh. So how can he be protected by sikhs. Also Marathas, Ahoms, purabias etc never depended or needed protection from sikhs. As far as Punjab is concerned, you just have to read the history of Sikh empire under Maharaja Ranjit Singh to understand the huge contribution of Hindus in establishing and sustaining that empire including military affairs. And as you yourself stated lot of sikhs had their origin in Hindu families. So more than a sikh protecting hindu, it was actually a case of a son or brother protecting his family.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 01 Jul 2021 23:59

Apart from Latino , country where which are democracy are not happy with it. It is simply they have not tasted other systems.it is a well established fact. Latinos are special case. One single music concert can change mood of nation and they are ready for next Revoluton..

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 02 Jul 2021 00:48

Just a data point. There was a recent killing of a Sikh for apostasy, I believe.

ManSingh · Post by **ManSingh** » 02 Jul 2021 00:52

sanjaykumar wrote:https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/k ... 2021-07-01
2 Sikh women in J&K who had converted to Islam were not pressured; married of their own will

Last week, Manmeet was dragged out of a car by some Sikh youths as she was heading towards a local court in Srinagar to register her marriage in the court.

Well there we are. Some communities need to dispense with their rigid patriarchal codes. If you can't control your women, learn to respect them.

As an aside one of these women was a Bali. Her ancestors converted out of the Brahmin caste. Sikhs did not have a problem with that.

What goes around, comes around.

And what would the rigid patriarchial code be?? Anything specific to Sikhism that is not practiced anywhere else in India or other traditional socities?

ManSingh · Post by **ManSingh** » 02 Jul 2021 01:03

madhu wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:
As an aside one of these women was a Bali. Her ancestors converted out of the Brahmin caste. Sikhs did not have a problem with that.

What goes around, comes around.
Need some clarification on this by some gurus.
My understanding is that sikhs are Nashik group of Hinduism. In fact it is common to move to Sikh by a family Hindu family member as it is not considered as separate religion. In return sikhs always protect Hindus from Muslim aggression.
This Sikh Hindu division is more superficial than Hindu Muslims bhai bhai...

It usually only means Kashmiri pandit community and/or those impacted by Mughal invasions in North Western India. The kashmiri pandit community reference comes from the time of Aurangzeb. Aurangzeb was not believed to be Green enough by his nobility. He had come to power after a bloody power struggle and he had to make people believe that he was ruthless and willing to spread religion using the power of the sword. Sikhs refused to convert..just shortening a long story.

The caravans carrying riches looted by marauders from North Western India, were attacked by Sikhs via guerilla warfare and they recovered a lot of the loot and captives being taken back as slaves to Persia.

Atleast these are the only stories I am aware of besides post 1947 contribution.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 02 Jul 2021 01:51

The Kashmiri pandits do not agree they are still Hindus because of a Sikh guru.

They call this a false history. To me it is a bit far-fetched to believe this parable. Shades of Jesus.

If there are KPs present, let them provide their own narrative.

It is not only KPs and Sindhis who have been victimised by religious intolerance. Panjabi Hindus are equally compromised. Only they have developed the false reassurance of knowing Haryana, Jammu, Himachal and Delhi are a day's journey away.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 02 Jul 2021 12:59

Gurudwara Parbhandhak Commette ( do not know which) paid 100000Rs for bail of LAL QILA attack accused. Bailing is ok. How can one support somebody who insults national flag at such important landmark? They are not afraid of being seen as anti India. It not somebody acting on his own. A group of people took decision to help the accused. Wah wah democracy. We abuse system whenever possible. We incite communal hate-red whenever possible. we kill doctors. Everybody is for their own. Every group is trying to prove that if they are not pampered, they will go out of India. Sikhs (residing in Punjab) think India has to honour them as they are sole protector of India.
What happens if Punjab goes out of India. It will be next Afganistan within months controlled by Bakistanis . Drug will be sold in streets openly. Canadians will make big houses to be left empty. Chinese or Nato troops will be on boundary with Haryana.Most of the Kashmiri and Khalistanis think they will make it Switzerland, forgetting that Swiss are not extremists fandoos. Why Nepal of Bhutan are not Swiss? One need education, common business sense and common civic sense to be like Switzerland.
,

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 02 Jul 2021 14:57

They are liberal with their religious rewards. General Dyer got one. Presented personally by the head priests of the golden temple.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 02 Jul 2021 15:29

and almost no one knows or remembers that now. No one talks about it now.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 02 Jul 2021 16:40

Yagnasri wrote:They are also not having "benefit" of paki madarasa logic like many Khalisthanis.

I don't know whether you meant that as a joke, but I have personally experienced it.
Seriously, you get the impression that you are either dealing with a inbred paki peacefool or a paranoid lunatic.
I was raised Sikh, and I can tell you these khalidstani's have gone full on paki.

I once had a bizarre conversation with two of these idiots.
The first one he made the claim that when General Jagjit Singh Arora died he was not given an official funeral and none of his fellow officers attended. When I provided photographic evidence he just went silent.
At least have the honor & self respect to admit when you are wrong !!

The other lunatic made the claim that the reason Operation Blue Star was given that name was because of the Blue Star on the Israeli flag, that a secret Israeli unit was involved in, they planned everything.

That is the "benefit" of paki madarasa logic like many Khalisthanis"

Seriously !!

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 02 Jul 2021 16:49

sanjaykumar wrote:Well there we are. Some communities need to dispense with their rigid patriarchal codes. If you can't control your women, learn to respect them.

If the lady wants to marry into Muslims to escape rigid patriarchal codes, then we can safely assume she is not very intelligent. Or maybe the problem lies with you for not comprehending the issue

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Jul 2021 16:58

Or she thinks that the Muslim marriage is liberating.

As it is essentially a contract for female to provide for companionship in consideration of a price to be paid by the male at the time of TTT.