Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Dec 2021 19:15

I am confused about how many helo launched ATGM programs are currently being run by DRDO.

Helina.
SANT.

What's the difference between the 2.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 11 Dec 2021 19:42

Pratyush wrote:I am confused about how many helo launched ATGM programs are currently being run by DRDO.

Helina.
SANT.

What's the difference between the 2.

Helina - IIR seeker
SANT - MMW seeker

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 11 Dec 2021 19:57

At first glance it appears like it missed the bullseye
Its a MMR seeker the poster is not the target but the small triangle metal reflector in front of it and the missile flies very close to it

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Dec 2021 22:02

Looking at the Sant, suprised it is was tested from what looks like a Mi35, a platform which like the Apache which will be used in very limited nos, compared to ALH and LCH.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 Dec 2021 22:12

Kakarat wrote:Helina - IIR seeker
SANT - MMW seeker

Also Ranges & User Services.
Helina is an Army version of Max 7 Kms with passive IIR seeker.
SANT is an IAF version for max. 20 Kms with active MMW radar.
Helina is also a LOAL while SANT is a LOAL & LOBL missile.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Dec 2021 22:13

Can Sant since 20km range be launched from fighters at altitude. That would be very useful

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Dec 2021 06:16

Hmmm, I was curious a few days ago seeing the demand for integration of spike nlos on the Apache.

Now, it has become much more clear. SANT is approaching maturity. So demand for an imported solution.

I should have known.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Dec 2021 06:45

Good news on PINAKA rockets.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 12 Dec 2021 07:29

Pratyush wrote:Hmmm, I was curious a few days ago seeing the demand for integration of spike nlos on the Apache.

Now, it has become much more clear. SANT is approaching maturity. So demand for an imported solution.

I should have known.

+1 I was thinking the same

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 12 Dec 2021 09:27

Aditya_V wrote:Looking at the Sant, suprised it is was tested from what looks like a Mi35, a platform which like the Apache which will be used in very limited nos, compared to ALH and LCH.

The MI35 is a big bad boy. Originally it supposedly carried reloads for its missiles so that it can rearm quickly near the battlefield. I guess the same cargo capability comes in handy during such tests to carry calibration equipment, backup rounds for the test missile, fitters, a couple of drdo scientsts, picnic basket, tent, chairs and tables...in case one test fails and they need to have another followon test without rtb. Doubt whether the Apaches or ALH can do that!

ShivS · Post by **ShivS** » 12 Dec 2021 11:54

All the platforms likely to use Helina and SANT have been used in trials - Rudra, LCH, Mi35.

This test at 10 km was quite an achievement.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 12 Dec 2021 14:25

Couple of points:

1) Helina also has both LOAL and LOBL modes
2) I believe SANT has both seeker options: IIR & MMW
3) Reports say 10 Km range test. I've read past reports that puts it in the 15-20 Km category

Added later: the 15-20 Km range might be for fixed wing platforms. So, we can expect tests of SANT from Su-30 MKI & Tejas in the future. Maybe even the Jag for its A2G missions

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2021 19:37

HELINA is LOBL.
SANT is mmW only.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 13 Dec 2021 01:46

Aditya_V wrote:Can Sant since 20km range be launched from fighters at altitude. That would be very useful

In what situation will a higher altitude fighter be more apt than a helicopter for using sant in anti armor role ?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 13 Dec 2021 06:00

YashG wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Can Sant since 20km range be launched from fighters at altitude. That would be very useful
In what situation will a higher altitude fighter be more apt than a helicopter for using sant in anti armor role ?

Gives flexibility to the strike package which is based on what the target is. Heptr requires a largely uncontested ais space for ops while fighter based capability allows us to interdict armr or other such assets farther away.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 Dec 2021 10:38

Karan M wrote:HELINA is LOBL.
SANT is mmW only.

I distinctly remember from one of the Aero India videos that talked about how the WSO can select a target for Helina post-launch. SANT was not in the picture at that time

Regarding SANT, plz see the below reports, one of them from Rout. SANT seems to have both IIR (for LOBL) and mmW seekers. What's not clear is whether they're both present in the same missile or if it has an mmW variant and an IIR variant

https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 12400.html

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 872743.cms

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2021 10:51

The TOI article is confusing when it says imaging infra red was tested when clearly the target was a metal triangle.
Good news is after one more trial

"The missile will be inducted after a series of tests from the actual launch platform on-board light combat helicopters and advanced light helicopters. "
I.e. LCH and ALH too from Rout.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2021 10:53

If the dual mode seeker is realized a lot of weapon systems will get modernized.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 Dec 2021 11:22

Ramana: that TOI article was an older one (not latest test). I posted it here as reference to an IIR seeker for SANT. The latest test was against a metal triangle. We don't know if previous tests had been done with IIR

Yes, it will be awesome if they managed to build a dual-mode-seeker for SANT

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Dec 2021 13:51

Prem Kumar wrote:
Karan M wrote:HELINA is LOBL.
SANT is mmW only.
I distinctly remember from one of the Aero India videos that talked about how the WSO can select a target for Helina post-launch. SANT was not in the picture at that time

Regarding SANT, plz see the below reports, one of them from Rout. SANT seems to have both IIR (for LOBL) and mmW seekers. What's not clear is whether they're both present in the same missile or if it has an mmW variant and an IIR variant

https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 12400.html

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 872743.cms

Rout often makes errors when it comes to the technology part. The SANT is a mmW equipped missile.
Please refer to the official DRDO press release. https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1780481

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Indian Air Force (IAF) flight-tested the indigenously designed and developed Helicopter launched Stand-off Anti-tank (SANT) Missile from Pokhran ranges on December 11, 2021. The flight-test was successful in meeting all its mission objectives. The release mechanism, advanced guidance and tracking algorithms, all avionics with integrated software, performed satisfactorily and tracking systems monitored all mission events. The missile is equipped with a state-of-the-art MMW seeker which provides high precision strike capability from a safe distance.

The HELINA reverted to the LOBL mode as it received a higher quality IIR seeker and longer range targeting sight. The LOAL capability was dropped. It may come back in the future purely from the perspective of adding flexibility or if the missile range is extended even further.

The DRDO's press release for the HELINA is instructive.

“The Helina and Dhruvastra are third generation, Lock-on-Before-Launch (LOBL) fire and forget ATGMs that can engage targets both in direct hit mode as well as top attack mode. The system has all-weather day-and-night capability and can defeat battle tanks with conventional armour as well as with explosive reactive armour,” the DRDO said in a statement on Friday. “It is one of the most-advanced anti-tank weapons in the world. Now, the missile systems are ready for induction,” it stated.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 880733.ece

ShivS · Post by **ShivS** » 13 Dec 2021 14:39

Both missiles have dual sensors - HELINA has a infra red sensor and a ccd camera. The base land attack Nag has a ccd camera too.

Some interesting work including testing has been done on LOAL mode for Helina by using a man in the loop to modify the target selection post launch but it’s not a true LOAL mode.

SANT has an active MMW seeker and an electro optical sensor that has infra red discrimination capability.

SANT is a very creditable achievement.

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 13 Dec 2021 16:21

Supersonic Missile Assisted Torpedo tested

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Dec 2021 17:01

Chinmay wrote:Supersonic Missile Assisted Torpedo tested

Can this be fired from Ships too, can it fit in Brahmos launchers? If Aircraft, Helos or remote Sonobuoys can detect the sub and ship launches this from a stand off range. will be more useful than coastal batteries targeting subs.

And I presume the way it works is, as the Missile is closing to the water, a parachute or parachutes will slow the Lightweight Torpedo(shyena) till its hits the water, and then the Torpedo will be able engage the enemy Submarine to about 4-5KM and maximum depth of about 540 meters.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 Dec 2021 17:10

Brilliant & glad to see the follow-up test!

Its a first of its kind missile in the world and am positive that the IN will embrace it. Interestingly, the distance from Nicobar to Malacca straits is less than 700 Km, while the range of SMART is 750 Km.

Regarding ships, I hope we come up with a UVLS that accommodates Brahmos, Nirbhay, SMART & possibly Shaurya/K-15. We should be able to drop these in as per mission requirement into our surface combatants.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 Dec 2021 17:19

Several details in this India Today report:

1) Tested to full range
2) 2 stage solid rocket
3) Canisterized road-mobile
4) Accurate INS

If a sub is positively ID'ed during hostilities, a salvo of even 3 SMARTs can be launched to have a very high kill-probability. The sub wouldn't know what hit it till its sonar picks up 3 pings splashing in the water above

The 1st test validated the concept including housing the payload, release mechanism, parachute deployment etc.

Hope a future variant (if its not there already) allows for mid-course guidance via satellites because the sub might have moved a few hundred meters between launch and impact. A similar mechanism must already be present because the launch signal must be communicated from the sensor platform via satellite to the launch platform

https://www.indiatoday.in/science/story ... 2021-12-13

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 13 Dec 2021 18:42

I'm still unsure about how this weapon will be deployed.

1) How will it discriminate between Indian, hostile, and non-Indian friendly or neutral subs operating in an area?

2) A P8 or MH60 acting as sensors can deploy its own weapons to kill target. So why would you send coordinates for a kill from such a standoff platform?

3) Such a long range kill chain will need extensive validation to prevent any accidental non-hostile targeting (fishing boats, container ships, aircraft(?))

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 13 Dec 2021 19:35

Chinmay wrote:I'm still unsure about how this weapon will be deployed.

1) How will it discriminate between Indian, hostile and non-Indian friendly or neutral subs operating in an area?

2) A P8 or MH60 acting as sensors can deploy its own weapons to kill target. So why would you send coordinates for a kill from such a standoff platform?

3) Such a long range kill chain will need extensive validation to prevent any accidental non-hostile targeting (fishing boats, container ships, aircraft(?))

Most probable use case is to complement ship borne ASW helos. MH60R will at most carry 2 torpedoes and ALH class 1.
Another use case is to be the shooter for maritime patrol UAVs which act as sensor and relay node.
While there are wishes for this to be ship borne in a UVLS. I also hope the UVLS gets ported to the naval MCMB. So the target determines the round - Brahmos for ship or SMART for sub. Makes shore based defense stronger and frees up frigates & corvettes for more hunter-killer operations.

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 13 Dec 2021 20:24

On the topic of sensors for chain before calling in SMART, I hope we have plans for a variety of long endurance UUVs. They can stationary buoy type to mini subs that can lurk in contested waters identifying sub threats. A satellite based network for real time inputs and data fusion should already be underway. Our navy has been quite serious about need of such networks.

A network of small UUVs backed by SMART teeth can drastically ease India's submarine force workload, especially in defensive scenarios, leaving the ample bandwidth for offensive missions.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Dec 2021 21:15

ShivS wrote:Both missiles have dual sensors - HELINA has a infra red sensor and a ccd camera. The base land attack Nag has a ccd camera too.

Some interesting work including testing has been done on LOAL mode for Helina by using a man in the loop to modify the target selection post launch but it’s not a true LOAL mode.

SANT has an active MMW seeker and an electro optical sensor that has infra red discrimination capability.

SANT is a very creditable achievement.

No, they don't.

HELINA and Nag don't have CCD camera sensors.

They are purely IIR seekers. The CCD option was a day only option originally explored for the original Nag and dropped ages ago.

SANT does not have an IIR seeker. It has a mmW seeker based on the seeker originally developed for a Nag variant and then developed seperately.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Dec 2021 21:52

Chinmay wrote:I'm still unsure about how this weapon will be deployed.

1) How will it discriminate between Indian, hostile, and non-Indian friendly or neutral subs operating in an area?

2) A P8 or MH60 acting as sensors can deploy its own weapons to kill target. So why would you send coordinates for a kill from such a standoff platform?

3) Such a long range kill chain will need extensive validation to prevent any accidental non-hostile targeting (fishing boats, container ships, aircraft(?))

Not just subs but surface assets. For ex. A ddg equipped with long ranged sams could endanger p8 or mh60 assets if they get too close.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Dec 2021 21:55

There aren't that many (if any) non US DDG's that can outrange some of the sensors on the P-8 so that threat, as that of something like a Sea Guardian being easily targeted by a surface combatant is completely overblown. There is no reason why these aircraft have to get inside surface combatant engagement ranges to do what they have to do (that's not how they are designed to operate). Moreover, in a shooting war, P-8s can employ weapons as well. The only way for China to deny the use of P-8I's or Sea Guardians in the open seas is to bring its aircraft carriers and utilize airpower.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Dec 2021 22:54

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 07522?s=20 ---> Report: First tests of Astra Mk2 BVR missile with 160 km range likely to happen in Q1 of next year. May feature HOJ (Home On Jam) mode in seeker.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 13 Dec 2021 23:32

Chinmay wrote:I'm still unsure about how this weapon will be deployed.

1) How will it discriminate between Indian, hostile, and non-Indian friendly or neutral subs operating in an area?

2) A P8 or MH60 acting as sensors can deploy its own weapons to kill target. So why would you send coordinates for a kill from such a standoff platform?

3) Such a long range kill chain will need extensive validation to prevent any accidental non-hostile targeting (fishing boats, container ships, aircraft(?))

1. It will be responsibility of sensor to do IFF. SMART will have to be fed sensor data in realtime ( I'll be surprised if thats not the plan)
2. Flying or floating only a sensor will substantially enhance the loiter time. UAV/UUVs with modest sensors can also increase detection capability. Floating sensor boats can have very long endurance.
3. Again sensor will have to do IFF and feed SMART in realtime.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Dec 2021 23:58

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 76964?s=20 ---> DRDO and the Indian Air Force successfully flight-tested the indigenously designed and developed helicopter launched Stand-off Anti-Tank (SANT) Missile from Pokhran ranges, today, meeting all its mission objectives.

https://twitter.com/hukum2082/status/14 ... 37544?s=20 ---> This gentlemen is what you call a true game changer. With Lock On After Launch (LOAL), EO/IR + MMW active radar homing, it can accurately take out targets at standoff ranges of 15-20 kms. This is an all weather anti-armour monster. The most venomous mutant of the 'Nag' family.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Dec 2021 00:17

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/147 ... 41152?s=20 ---> In my view, the latest supersonic missile assisted release of torpedo (SMART) test by DRDO is important because it shows that the potential user may have been persuaded that the means to locate and fix ASW targets at extreme distances are also available.

https://twitter.com/hukum2082/status/14 ... 84481?s=20 ---> A Sea Guardian/P-8I loitering in the Andaman Sea relays real-time co-ordinates, speed and heading of an hostile submarine to a P-15B DDG via a Link II datalink. The P15B DDG's MF Star FCR computes a quick firing solution and launches a salvo of SMART torpedoes from is foredeck VLS.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 53121?s=20 ---> The "hit" component of a long range surveillance (P-8I / MH-60R / Sea Guardian / Do-228) which relay targeting information to a coastal battery which then launches a SMART to reach out and hit. Future, can expect network of unattended sensors that can feed into the targeting chain.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 85985?s=20 ---> How India's game changing ASW missile SMART works.

Graphic credit to @joe_sameer

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Dec 2021 00:24

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 09409?s=20 ---> That's SMART!!

The Supersonic missile assisted torpedo system SMART developed by DRDO was successfully tested today and launched from Wheeler Island, Odisha.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Dec 2021 00:32

brar_w wrote:There aren't that many (if any) non US DDG's that can outrange some of the sensors on the P-8 so that threat, as that of something like a Sea Guardian being easily targeted by a surface combatant is completely overblown. There is no reason why these aircraft have to get inside surface combatant engagement ranges to do what they have to do (that's not how they are designed to operate). Moreover, in a shooting war, P-8s can employ weapons as well. The only way for China to deny the use of P-8I's or Sea Guardians in the open seas is to bring its aircraft carriers and utilize airpower.

The latest plan sam variants have ranges in excess of 200km esp. for large platforms. How can the Indian p8 engage ddgs with such defences without endangering itself. Can the harpoon engage at 250km+? How many harpoons can p8, sea guardians, mh60, carry?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Dec 2021 00:53

Cain Marko wrote:
brar_w wrote:There aren't that many (if any) non US DDG's that can outrange some of the sensors on the P-8 so that threat, as that of something like a Sea Guardian being easily targeted by a surface combatant is completely overblown. There is no reason why these aircraft have to get inside surface combatant engagement ranges to do what they have to do (that's not how they are designed to operate). Moreover, in a shooting war, P-8s can employ weapons as well. The only way for China to deny the use of P-8I's or Sea Guardians in the open seas is to bring its aircraft carriers and utilize airpower.
The latest plan sam variants have ranges in excess of 200km esp. for large platforms. How can the Indian p8 engage ddgs with such defences without endangering itself. Can the harpoon engage at 250km+? How many harpoons can p8, sea guardians, mh60, carry?

200 km against what target flying at what altitude and deploying what countermeasures? I am not familiar with what sort of testing the PLAN is doing but I seriously doubt they have credible capability to shoot down aircraft capable of deploying CMs (P-8s are even getting towed decoy upgrades) at or beyond 200 km. Perhaps they do with their latest cruisers but I highly doubt that it is a capability that is widely proliferated across their surface fleet. Also, why would you send the P-8 to target a destroyer? That's really not what the platform is meant for though if the IN is thinking on those lines then longer ranged missiles are being integrated into platform as we speak. The P-8 is an ASW asset first and foremost and along with the Sea Guardian has the ability to provide wide area maritime surveillance. When doing so they (both) will be careful to utilize their stand off sensors and not get into a situation where they can be easily engaged. It isn't something that is going to fly 100-200 km from large surface action groups or even heavily equipped destroyers for the purpose of targeting them. Not even China can afford to provide long range SAM coverage around areas where it is operating its submarines across the IOR or even more broadly in the Indo-Pacific. Now if you get into the littoral and some of the higher threat situations then its different. But if they are exposed like that then someone has already made the decision that their mission is worth the risk and likely also provided some escort to deal with any surface, or aerial threats.

John · Post by **John** » 14 Dec 2021 02:20

Cain Marko wrote:
brar_w wrote:There aren't that many (if any) non US DDG's that can outrange some of the sensors on the P-8 so that threat, as that of something like a Sea Guardian being easily targeted by a surface combatant is completely overblown. There is no reason why these aircraft have to get inside surface combatant engagement ranges to do what they have to do (that's not how they are designed to operate). Moreover, in a shooting war, P-8s can employ weapons as well. The only way for China to deny the use of P-8I's or Sea Guardians in the open seas is to bring its aircraft carriers and utilize airpower.
The latest plan sam variants have ranges in excess of 200km esp. for large platforms. How can the Indian p8 engage ddgs with such defences without endangering itself. Can the harpoon engage at 250km+? How many harpoons can p8, sea guardians, mh60, carry?

They won’t be engaging PLAN DDG IMO they will providing targeting information for low flying flankers with Brahmos, they can easily detect a destroyer sized target 300+ km away. And without a carrier very hard to counter fighter AC flying below radar horizon and using targeting information from SAT or AEW platform. They will pick apart any fleet without fighter support.

Also SMART looks to be too big to fit into Brahmos UVLS cells sadly so I don’t think it will be ship based weapon.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Dec 2021 04:47

So then, the point remains:
Why create a weapon system like SMART for subs alone when targeting ASW assets like p8 could easily engage them with onboard weapons?

Maybe a barrage of these from land based platforms to tackle CBGs?