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It is not correct for a woman after she starts menstruating to show her hands and face to strangers: Kamat referring to hadith mentioned in the Kerala HC judgment.
As per the liberals menstruating women not showing hands is progress and we need to uphold for religious freedom but menstruating women (I know don't bash me) not allowed into ayyapa temple is backward and should change.
My question is why not give real reason for why burka aayath came? Bukari 146
Narrated `Aisha:
The wives of the Prophet (ﷺ) used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqi` at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. `Umar used to say to the Prophet (ﷺ) "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam`a the wife of the Prophet (ﷺ) went out at `Isha' time and she was a tall lady. `Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).
Such a shameful act yet we need to promote it for religion
PM Modi's reply to Motion of Thanks on President's address in Rajya Sabha watch 47:00 to 53:10 where he takes on the congi mafia and their misrule over the decades
madhu wrote:As per the liberals menstruating women not showing hands is progress and we need to uphold for religious freedom
The tweet you shared have only the "pleadings" of the lawyers from the Muslim girl's side. Did not see any observations or pleadings from the state side. If you go through the tweets it looks like a one sided match and the KA state do not having any legally valid points from their side . Any way colleges have been ordered to be closed for next three days which does not give me much confidence and the "Hijab" side seems to be winning. This will NOT be a case of "blow to secularism".
It is not correct for a woman after she starts menstruating to show her hands and face to strangers: Kamat referring to hadith mentioned in the Kerala HC judgment.
So, now the courts are going to decide the case as per their reading of the Quran & Hadith. What are we - a sharia country?
How the eff does it matter what those texts say? A uniform is a uniform and needs to be respected
The only reason, as imac_too and others put it is this: "The institutions of State pander to Muslims due to fear of organized street violence"
IOW, the State has abdicated its primary responsibility - law & order, i.e. Kshatriyata. Everything else is fluff.
madhu wrote:As per the liberals menstruating women not showing hands is progress and we need to uphold for religious freedom
The tweet you shared have only the "pleadings" of the lawyers from the Muslim girl's side. Did not see any observations or pleadings from the state side. If you go through the tweets it looks like a one sided match and the KA state do not having any legally valid points from their side . Any way colleges have been ordered to be closed for next three days which does not give me much confidence and the "Hijab" side seems to be winning. This will NOT be a case of "blow to secularism".
Of all the self-goals BJP scores with alarming regularity, wading into this hijab controversy should probably be among the top 5 self-goals it has scored . The matter should have been settled at the district level, instead it is now an unpinned grenade rolling from one town to another and one district to next. Right from the beginning Karnataka govt should have known that there's no ways they'll win this battle in court or in media. If you put a ban on hijab, then you need to extend it to other religions as well and impose it on everyone including teaching staff. Imagine asking a catholic priest to stop wearing his robes or a nun to start wearing salwar kameez or a skirt ! What made the college principal in one particular college all of a sudden wake up and ban hijab we'll never know but it is clear that the govt too now wants the high court to take a decision and put an end to this ruckus. The real battle to be fought are where schools and colleges routinely harass hindu students for wearing bindis, mangalsutras, kumkum etc, and forces them to attend prayer sessions . Use this opportunity to punish institutes that hurt hindu sentiments and hindu students instead of trying to create controversies where there is none.
madhu wrote:As per the liberals menstruating women not showing hands is progress and we need to uphold for religious freedom
The tweet you shared have only the "pleadings" of the lawyers from the Muslim girl's side. Did not see any observations or pleadings from the state side. If you go through the tweets it looks like a one sided match and the KA state do not having any legally valid points from their side . Any way colleges have been ordered to be closed for next three days which does not give me much confidence and the "Hijab" side seems to be winning. This will NOT be a case of "blow to secularism".
So what next
1) 5 times namaz break in office & collage
2) no co-ed
3) apply Quran 4.144....
If right to equality does not uphold against right to religious freedom we will open pandora's box.
The court, if it wades into the matter, can find sufficient grounds to dismiss the petitioner's plea.
1. A school - even if run by a minority - is a secular institution, expected to run in a religion neutral environment - no place for overt, in your face display of religious affiliation.
2. The uniform is as the word says, must be uniform, and students of different faiths cannot substantially alter it and defeat its purpose
3. The religious justifications for hijab/burqua even if one digs through the koran and hadiths are strenuous at best. There is at best a surat that can be interpreted as the prophet asked women to cover their upper torso. No one in the prophets lifetime, including his wives wore hijab or burqua as a religious necessity. The garb anyway predates islam, and is found in many cultures of the region, as a handy way to cover one's head and face under hot sun.
4. Muslim scholars themselves are highly divided about the compulsory nature and extent of coverage of hijab/burqua, the prosecution of motivated can find numerous pronouncements.
5. Various islamic countries have had numerous historic periods when it was not worn, in the ME, in North Africa and elsewhere.
6. There are numerous women's rights activists from the islamic world who are still fighting against this regressive, male imposed practice - have written extensively about the unfounded nature of this imposition on religious grounds.
7. Within India, wearing hijab/burqua is not a practice prevalent and mandatory among various muslim communities. Neither in the past, nor today.
Notwithstanding all the points above, from a pure natural justice perspective:
8. The fundamental justification given for hijab is to protect women from the evil eyes of men. Its better if its supporters teach their men to consider women with more respect and change their "evil" view, instead of making women pay for men's "evil" attitude by hiding themselves in plain view and making all of them victims (your face is your identity, and thats taken away) by default.
9. What about a hindu bindi or a Xtain cross pendant? As long as the bindi doesn't cover the entire forehead, flowers in your hair dont pull your neck backwards preventing you from seeing ahead, or the cross pendant is so big that it makes you trip and fall, it's ok. Similarly, if a (muslim) girl wraps a regular chunri around her head or uses a scarf and -is ready and willing to take it off when asked to- (as per the school's discretion, or for an ID check for ex) its OK. Cant be stopped anyway.
Most of these points are known already.
What about dress code of Fathers/Nuns in Xian schools or muslim teachers wearing Burqa: This is a tricky matter. I haven't given much thought to it since its not been a problem statement so far...
The crucial point thats rarely made in pubic discourse, much less in a court room is this:
10. Isn't the display of religious symbolism by all religions to be treated by the same yardstick ? No its not the same. Abrahamic religions encourage/mandate their followers to proselytise and convert others to their religion, hence they are exhorted to go beyond a personal idea of faith and cross over into a societal expression of affiliation to an organised religion, thus taking on an overtly political role. Overt displays of religious symbols and dress code of Islam and Xtianity MUST BE viewed in this light, because its an essential part of the practice of their religion. Hinduism/sanatana dharma do not exhort its followers thus, but finds its followers exposed to the proselytisation/conversion efforts of the other religions. So all three cannot be treated as "operating in the same way" in the society. Hinduism, irrespective of its majority status deserves to be protected from the other two religions. (there is more to this, but that would be OT)
So there is enough and more stuff to defend the govt's action and set a precedent. It really comes down to who in the justice system is willing to call the muslim (fundamentalists') bluff and how far the govt is willing to push it.
Last edited by Cyrano on 08 Feb 2022 22:15, edited 2 times in total.
Ambar wrote: If you put a ban on hijab, then you need to extend it to other religions as well and impose it on everyone including teaching staff. Imagine asking a catholic priest to stop wearing his robes or a nun to start wearing salwar kameez or a skirt ! What made the college principal in one particular college all of a sudden wake up and ban hijab we'll never know but it is clear that the govt too now wants the high court to take a decision and put an end to this ruckus. The real battle to be fought are where schools and colleges routinely harass hindu students for wearing bindis, mangalsutras, kumkum etc, and forces them to attend prayer sessions . Use this opportunity to punish institutes that hurt hindu sentiments and hindu students instead of trying to create controversies where there is none.
Reading the twitter thread, the court is on the record saying this is permissible in minority run institutions under Article 30. So a minority run institution can ban hijab or whatever they want, but not a government run one. This is an important distinction.
At worst, and in due course, the case will go to the SC on appeal
How long will the majority be ignored and denied, especially when the damage over the past 70 years is plainly there for all to see.
Modi's very pointed speech in both houses of parliament over the last few days does not leave anyone much room for misinterpretation.
the on going consolidation will become a great leveler
one of the great premises of the country has always been unity in diversity.
How can this come about if the minorities refuse to integrate and constantly seek to segregate themselves under one pretext or the other.
The RTE, for example, is both divisive and unconstitutional in its intent and content as it seeks to selectively segregate the
minorities and isolate the majority.
Last edited by chetak on 08 Feb 2022 22:06, edited 1 time in total.
Their bravado and subjacent threat of violence aside, the last thing the male dominated muslim society wants is an open, mediatised public debate on hijab. They know its hard to defend on any grounds, they know such a public debate will encourage muslim women to come out, speak about it and rebel.
I suspect if there is a huge media debate that pierces the veil of this "its religious so you cant question it" stand, the plea will be quietly withdrawn. The fundamentalist muslim society is shit scared of its practices to be publicly brought out, discussed and debated.
Cyrano wrote:Their bravado and subjacent threat of violence aside, the last thing the male dominated muslim society wants is an open, mediatised public debate on hijab. They know its hard to defend on any grounds, they know such a public debate will encourage muslim women to come out, speak about it and rebel.
I suspect if there is a huge media debate that pierces the veil of this "its religious so you cant question it" stand, the plea will be quietly withdrawn. The fundamentalist muslim society is shit scared of its practices to be publicly brought out, discussed and debated.
Remember one reality: The intolerant minority usually wins
This is preparatory to implementing the two nation theory all over again with the minorities expecting the very same result.
Last edited by chetak on 08 Feb 2022 22:10, edited 1 time in total.
Sachin wrote:
The tweet you shared have only the "pleadings" of the lawyers from the Muslim girl's side. Did not see any observations or pleadings from the state side. If you go through the tweets it looks like a one sided match and the KA state do not having any legally valid points from their side . Any way colleges have been ordered to be closed for next three days which does not give me much confidence and the "Hijab" side seems to be winning. This will NOT be a case of "blow to secularism".
That is incorrect. Only congress lawyer (Devdutt Kamat) for muslim petitioner has argued today for 3 hours. Since he took up all the time the AG for state will argue tomorrow and there are other lawyers as well.
At worst, and in due course, the case will go to the SC on appeal
How long will the majority be ignored and denied, especially when the damage over the past 70 years is plainly there for all to see.
Modi's very pointed speech in both houses of parliament over the last few days does not leave anyone much room for misinterpretation.
the on going consolidation will become a great leveler
one of the great premises of the country has always been unity in diversity.
How can this come about if the minorities refuse to integrate and constantly seek to segregate themselves under one pretext or the other.
The RTE, for example, is both divisive and unconstitutional in its intent and content as it seeks to selectively segregate the
minorities and isolate the majority.
Karnataka govt sees the writing on the wall and realize they have waded into troubled waters unnecessarily . Majority of people in Karnataka including in my town where a local college first banned hijabs and started this whole controversy are confused and are questioning the government's decision. Hijabs have been worn in schools and colleges by muslim girls for as long as one can remember, most people are of the opinion that this issue should have been solved between the district administrators and the college administration but now you have riot like situation in multiple districts in the state. The court will undoubtedly ask the attorney representing Karnataka govt if it intends to ban sikh students and faculty from wearing turbans too in future ? I highly doubt Karnataka govt will contest the HC's decision in SC, and even if they do we know what Supreme court's decision will be in this matter.
Ambar wrote:
The court will undoubtedly ask the attorney representing Karnataka govt if it intends to ban sikh students and faculty from wearing turbans too in future ? I highly doubt Karnataka govt will contest the HC's decision in SC, and even if they do we know what Supreme court's decision will be in this matter.
So as per that logic will a Jain(monk) student going to school naked is also OK? After all that is his religious requirement.
Cyrano wrote:Their bravado and subjacent threat of violence aside, the last thing the male dominated muslim society wants is an open, mediatised public debate on hijab. They know its hard to defend on any grounds, they know such a public debate will encourage muslim women to come out, speak about it and rebel.
I suspect if there is a huge media debate that pierces the veil of this "its religious so you cant question it" stand, the plea will be quietly withdrawn. The fundamentalist muslim society is shit scared of its practices to be publicly brought out, discussed and debated.
Remember one reality: The intolerant minority usually wins
This is preparatory to implementing the two nation theory all over again with the minorities expecting the very same result.
Chetakji
That is what this us vs them all about
200 million strong want another vivisection so that they can partake its riches for another 70 yrs and then run that part to the ground like Paxatan!!
Add to this Dravidian DMK nonsense
All that's left is the Madhya Bharat
There is taquiyya in operation by male muslim community here. Under the garb of hijab = a scarf covering the head and wrapped around the neck, they are trying to pass off niquab (veil), burqa (head to toe covering, eyes visible) and chador (even eyes are behind a netting, hands covered by gloves). Once hijab is legitimised as a "religious right" of muslim women, they know they can stretch it all the way to chador and make female oppression complete.
The KA govt backing off now will pave the way for total oppression.
Ambar wrote:
The court will undoubtedly ask the attorney representing Karnataka govt if it intends to ban sikh students and faculty from wearing turbans too in future ? I highly doubt Karnataka govt will contest the HC's decision in SC, and even if they do we know what Supreme court's decision will be in this matter.
So as per that logic will a Jain(monk) student going to school naked is also OK? After all that is his religious requirement.
I don't think digambar Jain monks go to public schools so that's probably not a good example. If schools ban hijabs then they should ban all religious symbols/attire on everyone, goodluck enforcing it.
In politics the savvy players know which battle to pick and when, BJP chose poorly in this case. The college principal in Udupi placed a nice fat IED, the incumbent govt stepped right on it.
So as per that logic will a Jain(monk) student going to school naked is also OK? After all that is his religious requirement.
This is a false and wrong argument. In digambar jain tradition, naked living is part of sanyasa - distancing from society and rejection of all material goods. They have no need to attend regular schools, children are usually not initiated into it.
madhu wrote:So as per that logic will a Jain(monk) student going to school naked is also OK? After all that is his religious requirement.
Good question. I hope the court is asked. IMO, the government school should be required to allow such students who wish to attend school naked if it is part of their religion, as the goal of providing education overrides other considerations. Different matter that education to other students and faculty about Jain religious obligations may be needed.
Congress lawyer for muslim petitioner, now you know which party is running this show.
I pity the congress leadership. This will consolidate the hindus behind BJP. Don't know who is giving this idea.
What if Muslim ask kafir not to attend school coz Quran 4.144 states "Yusuf Ali: O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers" is that ok?
Regarding Jain student it's a hypothetical... Why not such a situation arise? Why not Naga attend school?
Congress lawyer for muslim petitioner, now you know which party is running this show.
I pity the congress leadership. This will consolidate the hindus behind BJP. Don't know who is giving this idea.
?
Saar,
This has been the congress bogeyman forever. Consolidation of hindus is a myth that has not happened ( recent exceptions have to hold) Whereas congress whips up the secular bank and calls out Eeevil communal yindus. Please look at Tamilnadu if you have any doubts ( DMK won because of consolidation of everyone else ). This is the formula : stoke sectarianism, stoke communalism and present itself as a the sickular solution.
Congress hasn't had to change the formula for a long time.
Majority Institutions: Need to be secular for country's sake. What is wrong with you?
Minority Institutions: They should be allowed to do as they please for country's sake. What is wrong with you?
Majority Institutions: Cant be political. What is happening onleee
Minority Institutions: We need to protect their right to self expression. This is democracy!
As long as peacefuls decide to mix politics and religion, it is hard to differentiate between the two. But we know that is not going to change...
So as per that logic will a Jain(monk) student going to school naked is also OK? After all that is his religious requirement.
This is a false and wrong argument. In digambar jain tradition, naked living is part of sanyasa - distancing from society and rejection of all material goods. They have no need to attend regular schools, children are usually not initiated into it.
Fine but this isn't - as a practicing Brahmana Brahmachaari I am required to not wear uthareeyam (shirtless) and have a shikhai (kudumi if you want to understand) - will they allow it in Government Schools to not discriminate? I have to wear a veshti - and not these kozhaais (pipes!)
Cyrano wrote:
This is a false and wrong argument. In digambar jain tradition, naked living is part of sanyasa - distancing from society and rejection of all material goods. They have no need to attend regular schools, children are usually not initiated into it.
Fine but this isn't - as a practicing Brahmana Brahmachaari I am required to not wear uthareeyam (shirtless) and have a shikhai (kudumi if you want to understand) - will they allow it in Government Schools to not discriminate? I have to wear a veshti - and not these kozhaais (pipes!)
LoL ! You'll need to go to his ashram, not a regular school.
If a brahmana wants to wear traditional attire in a school that mandates a western uniform, you'll need to find another school. Which doesn't follow the same McCauley system.
The real contention is fighting against an attire imposed for female oppression based on dubious religious claims and minority exceptionalism.
For outlier situations there will be outlier solutions.
This has been the congress bogeyman forever. Consolidation of hindus is a myth that has not happened ( recent exceptions have to hold) Whereas congress whips up the secular bank and calls out Eeevil communal yindus. Please look at Tamilnadu if you have any doubts ( DMK won because of consolidation of everyone else ). This is the formula : stoke sectarianism, stoke communalism and present itself as a the sickular solution.
Congress hasn't had to change the formula for a long time.
This is more about the alliances one gets for elections in any region including TN. However, I am in favor or the current gen BJP deciding to do it alone. This will probably help to create footprints in several places where non exist.
Seems like this formula has come to play in UP as well for in the upcoming elections for YAN's 2nd term. Hope all sorts of karab bandhans are defeated.
Cyrano wrote:LoL ! You'll need to go to his ashram, not a regular school.
If a brahmana wants to wear traditional attire in a school that mandates a western uniform, you'll need to find another school. Which doesn't follow the same McCauley system.
The real contention is fighting against an attire imposed for female oppression based on dubious religious claims and minority exceptionalism.
For outlier situations there will be outlier solutions.
What you see as oppression is allowed by courts in the basis of democracy and minority rights. Courts are happy to quote upanishads but will not read any other religious texts because of fear of riots. What others raised ( myself included) is the dual standards that have been operating for a while now.
BTW - I hold digambar jain teachers in high regard and do not think it is a outlier situation
Folks citing digambar jain examples, please educate yourself on the rules and niyamas they follow. Going naked might be the easiest of their self imposed restrictions.
Please do not trivialise hindu sampradayas that require enormous discipline and self control whose aim is not to make outward political statements or sensationalism but are paths chosen for self realisation. They are incomparable to other book based faiths peddled by messengers.
I didn't mean outlier in a negative way. Some Hindu practices are so far away from regular ways of life that those practitioners recognise that they need to maintain a certain distance from the society and voluntarily do so, in pursuit of their goals. Digambar jains or aghori sadhus etc don't needlessly mingle in the general society. Their focus is elsewhere. That's why they get respected, not treated as freask show clowns.
So as per that logic will a Jain(monk) student going to school naked is also OK? After all that is his religious requirement.
This is a false and wrong argument. In digambar jain tradition, naked living is part of sanyasa - distancing from society and rejection of all material goods. They have no need to attend regular schools, children are usually not initiated into it.
There is no need for overly literal and technical arguments by us, with scenarios favoring the other side. Let the other side make them and we can take them down.
Is there a rule that a digambara jain monk (not technically a sanyasi) cannot ever attend school or teach a class or give a guest lecture? Same for naga sadhus.
There could always be exceptions to the rule. Even one case is enough to challenge the status quo dispensation.
A particular sadhu or monk could be ordered by his guru to finish his high school education or get a college degree, possibly. Just because it never happened doesn’t mean it can’t ever happen. Plenty of Catholic “brothers” and nuns attend college. If they are a little educationally backward, they could attend school. Why rule it out for Hindu monks?
In such a case, can the school or college refuse admission because sadhus have renounced the world? If not, what about their religious rights?
Since our sadhus and monks are not blind book followers, I'd think they'll allow such student a temporary permission to adapt to the society's ways so that the mission of learning is achieved as smoothly and efficiently as possible and return to the fold and resume it's practices. They are considered wise men - jgnanis afterall, I wouldn't presume a bit of common sense is beyond them.
We're splitting hairs on hypothetical improbable scenarios and equating them to oppression and aggression by a minority.
Cyrano wrote:
We're splitting hairs on hypothetical improbable scenarios and equating them to oppression and aggression by a minority.
It's not the question of hypothetical or not. It's about uniformity of rule. Hindu schools can't sing chants in their God but minority (Christian & Muslims) can. Remember the issue of central school Upanishads prayer. Why such religion specific rules? I can name Christian schools where nuns wear cross proudly but stops Hindu kids from putting mehandi and bindi.
If they allow burka or hijab as one religion requires then let them allow rest too like digambara, Naga, aghori, brahmin etc.
If India gives away for hijab next will be namaz time, no coed, and finally islamazation of India.
madhu wrote:Hindu schools can't sing chants in their God but minority (Christian & Muslims) can.
That is where the Jains have one. They now have the 'minority' tag. So they can have their own rules. My child goes to one such school. They get 1-2 days holiday for X'Mas. Prayers are not 'secular' prayers. And the school rule is that no non-veg food allowed (including eggs). They tell the food rules etc upfront. And no lack of students, they are now planning to start a PU college now. Perhaps other Hindu communities should be encouraged to do this. KA communities like Lingayats etc have the clout to get this done.
If India gives away for hijab next will be namaz time, no coed, and finally islamazation of India.
This is the ultimate strategy. Bring a situation where only X'ian and Islamic religion authorised social system gets recognized and accepted. Others can keep religion inside their homes, or have some social functions with the approval of the secular(read X'ian and Islamist) groups.
I studied in an Arya Samaj English medium school until class X. Daily morning assembly had national pledge, national anthem and "Asatoma sadgamaya..." prayer. Every Saturday morning the whole school except primary classes performed Havan with Vedic hymns. Sanskrit was taught but just basics, unfortunately not very well, but still... The assembly hall had pictures of Bose, Bhagat Singh, Chandrashekar Azad and Gandhi. There were optional Indian music classes after school. Students from all religions attended. Had a dozen muslim classmates, they integrated well and went along with it. They have subsequently added yoga classes I hear. The school had a decent academic record, 95% pass in class X. Around class 8 my parents asked if I want to switch to a posh Xian diocese school Saint-something. I saw no reason to. We had a white shirt/blue nickers or pants, white blouse/blue frock/gown uniform. No one complained. The school still exists, is run pretty much the same way with over a 1000 students.
RSS runs 12,000 Vidya Bharati schools all over India. China Jeeyar Swami's foundation runs a school called Jeva near my place in Hyd now. Thirumala Thirupati Devesthanam runs a few junior, high schools and colleges (with the funds they have they could run thousands more). https://www.tirumala.org/EducationalTrust.aspx
I'm sure a lot of such examples where Govt curriculum is taught in a Hindu ethos all over India. Some temples and trusts also run specific veda pathashaalas.
So I don't know where the often repeated view "Hindus can't run their own schools" comes from. Has legislation changed and no new Hindu run schools are allowed? Please enlighten me.
Do a majority of Hindus want to send their children to these schools instead of "reputed" Church run schools or posh soul-less Archie's style corporate schools is the bigger question.
. Any way colleges have been ordered to be closed for next three days 
