Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

[Dilbu]

NATO wants to grant membership to Ukraine and Putin is basically saying ‘not on my watch’. NATO can now risk a war with him or wait out until there is a leadership change in Russia. The pot can be kept boiling until Putin is no longer calling the shots. Only problem is that Putin might also have thought through this scenario and he would have a plan.

[prahaar]

Europe is a Chihuahua in strategic terms. It cannot survive any Russian onslaught. Hence the EU officials are constantly shouting as advised by US. The ones who see the risk of US rhetoric are talking sense while appearing to be "with the crowd", Germany and France are talking diplomacy, Baltic states are US satellites, Poland hates Russia, Hungary has good relations with Russia. Russian invasion is the only item on which all these different sides agree. Hence, every statement ends with this "Russian invasion will be catastrophic". As long as Russia does not invade, US hands are tied. Consequently, US will try to instigate Ukraine to attack Eastern Ukraine to force Putin to act. The longer this lasts, the worse it is for entire Europe. US and UK gain diversion and greater role in continental Europe.

[ldev]

Biden and the US want to draw the line in Ukraine to recover from the shambolic US withdrawal from Afghanistan. If there are minimal consequences for Russia in the event it invades Ukraine, then with these two successive setbacks, China will feel emboldened to attack Taiwan which could precipitate the fall of other dominoes in the Pacific. Putin on the other hand wants to draw the line on the gradual expansion of NATO in the last 30 years since the fall of the USSR ,as well as the expansion of Western influence which has reached the borders of Russia. So no easy way out of this crisis. Both sides think that their version of how Ukraine goes is non negotiable with a lot of lose in the event that the other side prevails.

[John]

NATO wants to grant membership to Ukraine and Putin is basically saying ‘not on my watch’. NATO can now risk a war with him or wait out until there is a leadership change in Russia. The pot can be kept boiling until Putin is no longer calling the shots. Only problem is that Putin might also have thought through this scenario and he would have a plan.

That’s not correct even the NATO statement in 2008 opening the door for Georgia and Ukraine if NATO allies agreed to it, was criticized by US Secretary openly. Even last year Biden dismissed allowing Ukraine into NATO and most European countries were opposed to it. Even Ukrainians were opposed to joining NATO. Now it has changed, it’s funny most Ukrainians have turned pro western such a huge turned in just a month.

[Cain Marko]

So, let us guess the usual war mongers' playbook.
1. Push the UKR into cleaning out RU influence/separatists in the Donetsk
2. RU moves in to protect its interests.
3. Now what? Here are possible options:
#1 - Hit Russia with sanctions and watch oil prices soar.
#2 - #1 + arm/equip UKR with all that mighty US MIC can offer
#3 - Get "coalition of the willing"/NATO to get boots on the ground.

My guess is #2 is the most likely. And there might be other options that I'm missing.

[Aditya_V]

Another aspect is US UK Companies/ Traders have a killing due to the High energy prices due to the prospect of war, pumping billions into their economies to help in the post pandemic world while stifling Indian economy etc.

[Ambar]

So, let us guess the usual war mongers' playbook.
1. Push the UKR into cleaning out RU influence/separatists in the Donetsk
2. RU moves in to protect its interests.
3. Now what? Here are possible options:
#1 - Hit Russia with sanctions and watch oil prices soar.
#2 - #1 + arm/equip UKR with all that mighty US MIC can offer
#3 - Get "coalition of the willing"/NATO to get boots on the ground.

My guess is #2 is the most likely. And there might be other options that I'm missing.

Isnt #1 counter-productive considering US goes to midterms elections this year ? #3 will start a mini world war.

[srin]

So, let us guess the usual war mongers' playbook.
1. Push the UKR into cleaning out RU influence/separatists in the Donetsk
2. RU moves in to protect its interests.
3. Now what? Here are possible options:
#1 - Hit Russia with sanctions and watch oil prices soar.
#2 - #1 + arm/equip UKR with all that mighty US MIC can offer
#3 - Get "coalition of the willing"/NATO to get boots on the ground.

My guess is #2 is the most likely. And there might be other options that I'm missing.

Russia can protect its interests without *officially* moving in. It can increase the temperature with full plausible deniability - plain-clothed special forces, arms to the separatists, small low-level encounters with UKR troops. Worst case, if they really want to press hard, a declaration of independence and a referendum.

The funny thing with the US crying wolf on invasion date etc is nobody is going to believe the US if a low level operation happens.

[Tanaji]

I think you cannot be granted NATO membership if you have outstanding border disputes. So technically UKR wouldn’t qualify. What is mischievous then is the unwillingness of UK and US to rule it out on that grounds, purely because Putin is asking for it.

[Tanaji]

More inflammatory statements from US such as Russia has drafted a kill list of people to detain or kill during invasion. Of course no evidence is being provided of such claims.

[dnivas]

^^^^
Mort-ji, I’m not an expert on American domestic politics, but President Biden did not put those even one of the 150-200k Russian troops on Ukraine’s borders. The troops surrounding and threatening Ukraine answer only to President Putin.

Next thing you are going to say is India has 40K troops of Paki border and that means India is going to invade Pukistan and sleepy Biden didnt put them there. Please NATO is 180 km's from St Petersberg and it is a military alliance. 20 years ago, NATO was hundreds of km's away.

[dnivas]

some new facts emerging about the NATO assurances to USSR in the 90's. Long read below and very mind opening regarding why the Europeans and their anglo masters are leery about agreeing to no more NATO expansion. 100% snake oil salesmanship

https://www.spiegel.de/international/wo ... 8c94e1964d

[mody]

What would Putin be willing to settle for? In my humble opinion, I think Putin would be glad to accept the following:

1). Recognition of Crimea as part of Russia and Ukraine gives up all claims on Crimea.
2). Some form of partial autonomy for Donetsk and Luhansk
3). Verbal assurance from the Europeans (read France and Germany), about no imminent admission of Ukraine into the EU or NATO.

I think if the above is offered, the Russians would be happy to pull back all of their forces to peacetime location. Ukraine can be convinced to give up Crimea, in order to have settled borders, without which NATO membership would not be possible, besides short of an all out war, there is no way for Ukraine to get Crimea back.
Few months after the troop withdrawal, the Nord Stream-2 can start pumping and in another few months, Putin can start negotiating with the Europeans, to remove some of the currently existing sanctions, that were levied in the wake of the Crimean take over.

[srin]

^^^ Not just Ukraine, Belarus also. The West has been trying to start some sort of color revolution there too and do a Ukraine there.

[kit]

^^^ Not just Ukraine, Belarus also. The West has been trying to start some sort of color revolution there too and do a Ukraine there.

so belarus going nuclear !

[kit]

why Ukraine

the country has the potential to become the next economic ( and military) powerhouse of Europe
Industries

Zenit-2, produced by Yuzhmash, Ukrainian rocket manufacturer
Ukraine is home to companies operating in around 20 major industries, namely power generation, fuel, ferrous and non-ferrous metallurgy, chemical and petrochemical and gas, machine building and metal-working, forest, wood-working and wood pulp and paper, construction materials, light, food and others.[118] Industry accounted for 26% of GDP in 2012. The country has a massive high-tech industrial base, including electronics, arms industry and space program.

Mining and production
Ukraine is one of the world's most important mineral producing countries, in terms of both the range and size of its reserves. There are nearly 8,000 separate deposits, harboring some 90 different minerals, of which about 20 are economically significant. About half of all the known deposits are under exploitation. Coal reserves in Ukraine amount to 47.1 billion tons. The annual domestic demand for coal as fuel is about 100 million tons, of which 85 percent can be satisfied by domestic production. Ukraine has oil and gas fields that meet 10 percent of her oil and 20 percent of her gas consumption, respectively. Ukraine contains natural gas reserves of 39.6 trillion cubic feet, but only about 20 percent of the country's demand is met by domestic production. Deposits of iron ore (estimated at 28 billion tons), manganese ore (3 billion tons), chalk and limestone (1.5 billion tons) are also large in Ukraine. The domestic industrial sector suffers from constant energy shortages and energy supply payment debts totaling about $792 million at the end of 1995.

In 2019, the country was the 7th largest world producer of iron ore,[119] the world's 8th largest producer of manganese,[120] 6th largest producer of titanium,[121] and 7th largest producer worldwide of graphite.[122] It was the world's 9th largest producer of uranium in 2018.[123]

Iron and steel
Ukraine is rich in mineral deposits, including iron ore (of which it once produced 50 percent of the entire Soviet output), manganese ore (of which it produced 40 percent of world output during the Soviet era), mercury, titanium,[124] and nickel.

Ukraine has a major ferrous metal industry, producing cast iron, steel and pipes. Among its economy leading companies in that field are Metinvest, Kryvorizhstal, AzovStal, Ilyich Steel & Iron Works, and others. As of 2012, Ukraine is the world's tenth largest steel producer (according to World Steel Association).

Chemical industry
Another important branch is the country's chemical industry which includes the production of coke, mineral fertilizers and sulfuric acid.

Strategic and defense complex

BM Oplot, produced by the KMDB guided onto a tank transporter
Ukraine's defense industry is organized around Ukroboronprom, a state owned conglomerate of over 130 companies. These companies include Soviet era giants such as Ivchenko-Progress aircraft design bureau that was opened in 1945, to newer companies such as RPC Fort which came into existence in the 1990s. Ukraine is also among the top 10 arms exporters in the world. The signing of recent large contracts may put Ukraine into 6th place among biggest arms traders, after the United States, Russian Federation, France, Germany and Israel.[125] The output of Ukrainian defense plants grew 58% in 2009, with largest growth reported by aircraft builders (77%) and ship builders (71%).[125]

In 2013, Ukraine's defense sector manufactured a total of 11.7 billion UAH worth of goods, 10 billion UAH of which were exported. In the first 9 months of 2014 Ukraine's defense sector produced a record 13 billion UAH worth of goods, the increase was largely due to government orders for the War in Donbass.[126]

Fuel and energy complex
See also: Natural gas in Ukraine and Energy in Ukraine
Fuel industry
Ukraine imports 90% of its oil and most of its natural gas. Russia ranks as Ukraine's principal supplier of oil, and Russian firms own and/or operate the majority of Ukraine's refining capacity. Natural gas imports come from Russia – which delivers its own gas, as well as the gas from Turkmenistan. Ukraine transports Russian gas to the EU through its well-developed gas pipelines system, being Europe's vitally important connection. The country's dependence on Russian gas supplies dramatically affects its economics and foreign policy, especially after the 2014 Russia–Ukraine gas disputes.

However, Ukraine is independent in its electricity supply, and exports to Russia and other countries of Eastern Europe. This is achieved through a wide use of nuclear power and hydroelectricity. Recent energy strategy intends gradual decreasing of gas- and oil-based generation in favor of nuclear power, as well as energy saving measures including lower industrial gas consumption. Reform of the still inefficient and opaque energy sector is a major objective of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank programs with Ukraine.

Ukraine is a partner country of the European Union|EU INOGATE energy programme, which has four key topics: enhancing energy security, wikt:convergence|convergence of member state energy markets on the basis of Internal energy market|EU internal energy market principles, supporting sustainable energy development, and attracting investment for energy projects of common and regional interest.[127]

Automotive industry
See also: Automotive industry in Ukraine

LAZ-5208DL built by Lviv Bus Factory

The modern tram Electron T5L64
Ukraine automobile manufacturers produces diesel locomotives, tractors, trucks, buses, trolleybuses, own-designed cars and trams. There are 12 automobile manufacturers in Ukraine includes ZAZ, LuAZ, Bogdan, KrAZ, Eurocar, Electron, LAZ.

ZAZ (Zaporizhzhia Automobile Building Plant) is the main automobile-manufacturer of Ukraine, based in the south-eastern city of Zaporizhzhia. Beginning of passenger cars manufacturing in Ukraine started in 1959. From 1960 to 1994, a total of 3,422,444 Zaporozhets vehicles were manufactured in Zaporizhzhia and engines with air-cooling in Melitopol. In 2011–2012, Zaporizhzhia Automobile Building Plant started serial full-scale production of two new models of vehicle, the ZAZ Forza (re-badged Chinese Chery A13) and the ZAZ Vida(re-badged Daewoo Aveo).

Bogdan Corporation is a leading Ukrainian automobile-manufacturing group, including several car- and bus-makers of the country. Bogdan buses (re-badged Isuzu models) are used as the primary small buses in most Ukrainian cities.

LAZ is one of the major bus manufacturers in Ukraine. It manufactures city buses, coach buses, trolley buses, and special purpose buses.

The Lviv-based company Electrontrans is an enterprise of a full-scale production, specializing in design and production of modern urban electric transport – trams, trolleybuses, electric buses, units and spare parts. In 2013 Electrotrans starts producing low-floor trams, the first Ukrainian 100% low-floor tramways.[128]

Aircraft and aerospace industry

Antonov An-225 Mriya, the largest aircraft in the world
Ukraine is one of nine countries with a full cycle of aerospace hardware engineering and production[citation needed]. Besides to design and production of passenger and transportation aircraft, Ukraine also boasts a network of aircraft repair enterprises, including companies involved in recovery of military planes and helicopters.[citation needed] In March 2007, the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine created State aircraft building concern «Aviation of Ukraine» (SACAU), which is governed by the Ministry of industrial policy. Production of An-148 aircraft is now one of the most prospective projects for Ukrainian plane manufacturing industry with 35 units manufactured since 2009 (together with Russian production). The aircraft were engineered by Antonov Scientific and Production Complex Design Office (Antonov ANTK). The largest single airplane in the world, Antonov An-225 Mriya was also designed by Antonov ANTK and made in 1988. Gross production of light and ultra light planes in Ukraine does not exceed 200 units per annum. Production of hang-gliders and paragliders of all designs makes nearly 1,000 units each year. Most of produced devices are exported (the buyers of Ukrainian-made ultra-light aircraft are the United States, Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, France, etc.).

Since 2014, aerospace industry revenues have fallen by 80%.[129] In June 2016, the Antonov Corporation merged with the state-owned military conglomerate UkrOboronProm, forming Ukrainian Aircraft Corporation within its structure. This merger was done to boost Antonov profits and the production rate.[130] Currently, Antonov is working on two cargo planes: An-178,[131] a cargo version of An-158, and An-132D, a redesigned version of An-32.[132] The An-132 is developed jointly with Saudi's Taqnia Aeronautics Company, featuring western avionics and engines. The roll out and first flight is due at the beginning of January 2017.

The space rocket industry in Ukraine has been managed by the National Space Agency of Ukraine since 1992. The agency includes 30 enterprises, scientific research institutes, and design offices. Pivdenne Design Bureau is in general responsible for creating the Zenit-3SL carrier rocket. The National Space Agency of Ukraine is involved in cooperation with American Rockwell Int., as well as the Sea Launch project.[133] The first stage core of the U.S. Orbital ATK Antares rocket was designed and is manufactured in Ukraine by Yuzhnoye SDO.[134]

Shipbuilding
Main article: Shipbuilding in Ukraine

MV Minerva − one of the passenger ships built in Ukraine
The USSR's collapse put Ukraine's shipbuilding into a long-term decline. It lasted until 1999 and was mostly due to a minimum volume of state shipbuilding orders. In general, between 1992 till 2003, the 11 shipyards of the country produced 237 navigation units for a total value of US$1.5 billion. Production facilities are not working near full capacity, and customers are not always timely in paying for services. Growth of production volumes was witnessed at the enterprises of shipbuilding industry over 2000–2006. State support and the opening of free economic zones, foremost at enterprises based in Mykolaiv were of crucial recent developments in Ukraine's shipbuilding industry. Within the Mykolaiv Special Economic Zone, enterprises like Damen Shipyards Okean, Chornomorskyi (Black Sea) Shipbuilding Plant, 61 Communards Shipbuilding Plant, as well as the Veselka (Rainbow) paint and insulation enterprise are implementing investment projects targeted to raise efficiency and quality in primarily export-oriented vessel building through production upgrades. The new engineering developments and high potential of Ukrainian designers give ability to build high quality vessels with competitive prices. There are 49 shipbuilding companies registered in Ukraine. They are able to build a wide range of vessel types: powerboats, barges, bulk carriers (dry cargo ship), tankers, liquefied gas carriers, etc. Ukraine is one of the 10 largest shipbuilding countries in Europe.[135][136]

Agriculture

Ukrainian T-150K tractor build by Kharkiv Tractor Plant.

Ukraine's flag resembles the nation's farmlands.

Vineyards in Zakarpattia Oblast.
Although typically known as the industrial base of the Soviet Union, agriculture is a large part of Ukraine's economy. In fact, Ukraine is one of the world's largest agricultural producers and exporters and is known as the breadbasket of Europe.[137]

In 2008, the sector accounted for 8.29% of the country's GDP and by 2012 has grown to 10.43% of the GDP. Agriculture accounted for $13.98 billion value added to the economy of Ukraine in 2012, however despite being a top 10 world producer of several crops such as wheat and corn Ukraine still only ranks 24 out of 112 nations measured in terms of overall agricultural production.[138][139] Ukraine is the world's largest producer of sunflower oil,[140] a major global producer of grain and sugar, and future global player on meat and dairy markets. It is also one of the largest producers of nuts. Ukraine also produces more natural honey[141] than any other European country and is one of the world's largest honey producers, an estimated 1.5% of its population is involved in honey production, therefore Ukraine has the highest honey per capita production rate in the world.[142] Because Ukraine possesses 30% of the world's richest black soil, its agricultural industry has a huge potential. However, farmland remains the only major asset in Ukraine that is not privatized.[143] The agricultural industry in Ukraine is already highly profitable, with 40–60% profits,[143] but according to analysts its outputs could still rise up to fourfold.[144] Ukraine is the world's 6th largest, 5th if not including the EU as a separate state, producer of corn in the world and the 3rd largest corn exporter in the world. In 2012 Ukraine signed a contract with China, the world's largest importer of corn, to supply China with 3 million tonnes of corn annually at market price, the deal also included a $3 billion line of credit extension from China to Ukraine.[145][146]

In 2014, Ukraine total grain crop was estimated to be record 64 million metric tons. However, in 2014, several regions have declared (themselves) independence (and are no longer under control of Ukrainian central authorities) resulting in the War in Donbass and the Crimea Crisis[nb 3], hence the actual available crop yield was closer to 60.5 million metric tons. By October, Ukrainian grain exports reached 11 million metric tons. Due to the decline of the metallurgy industry, Ukraine's top export in prior years, as a result of the War in Donbass agricultural products accounted for the nation's largest exported set of goods.[148]

Source : Wikipedia

[kit]

Biden using Ukraine to "fix" his problems !!

[kit]

Boris using Ukraine to latch onto his seat

It would take a tank regiment to get me out of No 10 !!

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/boris-johns ... in-1430197

[kit]

America is its own worst enemy !

[Dilbu]

Ukraine has duly denied.
Russia says shell from Ukrainian territory destroyed its border guard post

Russia Ukraine Crisis Live: Russia’s FSB security service said on Monday a shell from Ukrainian territory had completely destroyed a border guard post in Russia’s Rostov region but had caused no casualties, the Interfax news agency reported. The incident occurred 150 metres from the border between Russia and Ukraine, Interfax cited the FSB as saying. Sporadic shelling across the line dividing Ukrainian government forces and pro-Russian separatists in the east has intensified since Thursday.

[Sonugn]

via RT

Russia claims five Ukrainian soldiers killed in border firefight

Moscow says its forces also destroyed two armored personnel carriers

Russia’s armed forces have reported that its troops opened fire on a “Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group” that attempted to cross into the country, killing five servicemen and destroying their vehicles.

In a statement issued on Monday, military chiefs said that “a unit of the Southern Military District, alongside a border patrol by the Russian Federal Security Service, prevented a sabotage and reconnaissance group from violating the Russian state border from the territory of Ukraine.”

[Dilbu]

So it has started.

[Tanaji]

More inflammatory statements from US such as Russia has drafted a kill list of people to detain or kill during invasion. Of course no evidence is being provided of such claims.

Not to be outdone by the master UK has gone one step up and is now saying “ UK says Russia's plan to invade has 'already begun'

This is getting to be Baghdad Bob level of statements

[John]

More inflammatory statements from US such as Russia has drafted a kill list of people to detain or kill during invasion. Of course no evidence is being provided of such claims.

Not to be outdone by the master UK has gone one step up and is now saying “ UK says Russia's plan to invade has 'already begun'

This is getting to be Baghdad Bob level of statements

Given the satellite images are clearly showing the buildup it is playing into any statements by UK and US, Putin cannot say I pulled back when images show otherwise. Even claimed border attacks have quickly refuted thanks to wide availability of sat images.

[Suresh S]

so many self proclaimed experts filling the air waves with little knowledge of Russian history , it,s people and it,s present president or Russian emperor Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.
This war in Ukraine is already underway and it is totally the west,s fault , specifically USA and it,s ruling anglo Saxon and jewish hierarchy.

Russia the country started more than a thousand yrs ago centerd around Kyiv the birthplace of all slavic people including russians, belarussians, ukrainians, polish, serbs, slovaks, bulgarians, rumanians and so on. Of course a lot of history happened between than and now but the basic facts have not changed. More things change more they are the same.

The most respected figure in the history of Russia Vladimir Nevsky, prince of Vladimir, prince of novgorod, grand prince of Kyiv. His 800,s birth anniversary was celebrated in Rus in 2021.

For people to really understand the events unfolding they must know Russian history in detail. If I keep writing about, it will fill several pages. Cut the chase to last 40-45 yrs. The war in Afghanistan imposed on russia as a revenge for Vietnam by a polish american character Zbigniew Brzezinski, the fall of the soviet union and terrible pain for ethnic russians and their killings in the former republics, stealing of russians assets by jewish russians around drunk president Yeltsin, the war in Chechnya enginnered by CIA and thousands of Russian soldiers dead, war in Iraq in 1991 and 2003 invasion on fake WMD excuse, regime change and wars imposed on Russia in Georgia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Belarus, broken promises in eastern Europe after fall of soviet union and their entry into NATO, attack on Serbia, destruction of Soviet friendly regimes in Libya, Syria, Iraq and killing of their leaders, illegal sanctions last 23 yrs after putin came to power, attempts to assasinate the president in Moscow ( his limo driver dead).

I will stop and I hope u get the drift. Their is plenty more but. Anyway I am surprised at president Putin,s patience, anyone more aggressive than him would have resulted in far more horrible outcome by now. All this knowledge was not gathered from some internet website but first hand experience living with a military family.

[Lisa]

^ Very strange, the only people who appear to have a religion, in the accusations above, are Jews. Really! You should be reported for this shameful racist post.

[Suresh S]

please do. Every word in the above post is factually and historically correct.

[rsingh]

^ Very strange, the only people who appear to have a religion, in the accusations above, are Jews. Really! You should be reported for this shameful racist post.

You may report but can not hide facts. He is right.

[vera_k]

some new facts emerging about the NATO assurances to USSR in the 90's. Long read below and very mind opening regarding why the Europeans and their anglo masters are leery about agreeing to no more NATO expansion. 100% snake oil salesmanship

https://www.spiegel.de/international/wo ... 8c94e1964d

I read this, and it says there was nothing written down in terms of assurances about NATO expansion. Some private assurances may have been exchanged, but nothing more than that. Now, of course its debatable whether a written treaty has any value when it comes to the West as well, but at least the Russians would have been on solid ground if there was something written down.

[Mort Walker]

via RT

Russia claims five Ukrainian soldiers killed in border firefight

Moscow says its forces also destroyed two armored personnel carriers

Russia’s armed forces have reported that its troops opened fire on a “Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group” that attempted to cross into the country, killing five servicemen and destroying their vehicles.

In a statement issued on Monday, military chiefs said that “a unit of the Southern Military District, alongside a border patrol by the Russian Federal Security Service, prevented a sabotage and reconnaissance group from violating the Russian state border from the territory of Ukraine.”

They may be mercenaries or neo-Nazi paramilitary. Both sides have resorted to Paki tactics where off duty military are operating as mercenaries or break away separatist forces.

[John]

via RT

Russia claims five Ukrainian soldiers killed in border firefight

Moscow says its forces also destroyed two armored personnel carriers

Russia’s armed forces have reported that its troops opened fire on a “Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group” that attempted to cross into the country, killing five servicemen and destroying their vehicles.

In a statement issued on Monday, military chiefs said that “a unit of the Southern Military District, alongside a border patrol by the Russian Federal Security Service, prevented a sabotage and reconnaissance group from violating the Russian state border from the territory of Ukraine.”

They may be mercenaries or neo-Nazi paramilitary. Both sides have resorted to Paki tactics where off duty military are operating as mercenaries or break away separatist forces.

There was no Ukrainian attack, that news has no credibility even Russia has stopped reporting it. In this day and age you can’t just make up shit and expect people to believe.

[Mort Walker]

There are Azov units in Ukraine which are neo-Nazis that are US funded or have complicity with the Ukrainian government. The shooting down of MH17 over eastern Ukraine was a mess. It's not clear who operated those SAMs and who pulled the trigger, but there is evidence of Russian operators.

[Vayutuvan]

why Ukraine

...[148]

kit ji, did you write it or is it a fragment of a policy paper from somewhere? I ask because there are references like the above "[148]"

Because I have seen something similar on WA with no attribution and all references removed. It is being circulated in WA to elicit certain responses. I would like to know who and why.

[kit]

why Ukraine

...[148]

kit ji, did you write it or is it a fragment of a policy paper from somewhere? I ask because there are references like the above "[148]"

Because I have seen something similar on WA with no attribution and all references removed. It is being circulated in WA to elicit certain responses. I would like to know who and why.

Nothing sinister , just wiki

[kit]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7304 ... 778f6269ef

One of the other factors that also played into the high European prices and volatility we saw last year was the increased financial activity, and in particular a lot of new financial players like hedge funds coming into this market.

[achy]

While there is legitimate security concern for Russia against West's expansionist agenda, we have to be cognizant that Russia must be accounted for recognizing donetsk and luhansk as separate country. Creating territories just due to ethnic affinity is an step in adventurism too far. This will create a chain reaction ala creation of Israel as a country solely on the basis of religion. India and later many parts of world became an unintended victim of that. India needs to spell out its concerns if Russians do take it that far.

[Lisa]

^ You mean like Kosovo that the US and EU recognised?

P.S. Putin recognizes Ukraine rebel regions’ independence.

[John]

One cannot Forget China which had some of harshest things to say to Russia so much for Xi-Putin being BFF which was spun by media.There could be many reasons: China doesn’t want Gas prices to go up any further, want to maintain its close relationship with Ukraine and secretly backs any US sanction on Russia as further destabilization serves its purpose.

As for India I can see why we haven’t said anything. This leaves us in hard place any sanctions could cripple our military dependence on Russian arms and high gas prices could cause a global recession and will hit us hard.


WSJ: Behind China’s Warning Against a Russian Invasion Is a Desire to Protect Ties With the U.S.

[kit]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/2 ... -live-news

Putin recognizes Ukraine rebel regions’ independence:
Putin’s announcement paves the way for Russia to openly send troops and weapons to the long-running conflict pitting Ukrainian forces against Moscow-backed rebels.

[kit]

While there is legitimate security concern for Russia against West's expansionist agenda, we have to be cognizant that Russia must be accounted for recognizing donetsk and luhansk as separate country. Creating territories just due to ethnic affinity is an step in adventurism too far. This will create a chain reaction ala creation of Israel as a country solely on the basis of religion. India and later many parts of world became an unintended victim of that. India needs to spell out its concerns if Russians do take it that far.

For all intends and purposes., i think this was the main Russian objective., keep Ukraine divided, even if they join NATO !! (unlikely. Ukraine would need a lot of concessions as regarding membership qualifications, as it is going onwards to perpetual conflict)