Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Feb 2022 08:08

ramana wrote:Uran missile? Russian?

It's the Russian equivalent of the Harpoon.

Has been in service for 25+ years with the Navy.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Feb 2022 08:25

More like 30 years, Uran was the Navy primary anti ship missile till Brahmos came along, all the Delhi class were armed with Uran till thier upgrade, in the mid 90s even Australia used to harass our Delhi class DDG, our MPA took off with Tu142 in the mid 80s.

Maybe we don't have the Chinese numbers but our Nav6 has come leaps and bounds in the last 30 years and the sheer capability built up is bound to pay off in the next 20 years.

John · Post by **John** » 03 Feb 2022 08:35

Aditya_V wrote:More like 30 years, Uran was the Navy primary anti ship missile till Brahmos came along, all the Delhi class were armed with Uran till thier upgrade, in the mid 90s even Australia used to harass our Delhi class DDG, our MPA took off with Tu142 in the mid 80s.

Maybe we don't have the Chinese numbers but our Nav6 has come leaps and bounds in the last 30 years and the sheer capability built up is bound to pay off in the next 20 years.

Interestingly Uran’s where purchased because of Russia’s reluctance to sell Moskit (but they turned around and sold to China). Russia offered a longer range version of Uran (called Uranium but I don’t buy that was actual name) but had high asking price so we never pursued it. At that time they had AshM which all but abandoned “Oniks” which they offered for co development and rest is history.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 03 Feb 2022 10:39

A 3000+ Crore order from the IA to BDL for Konkurs-M

Wonder if they will bracket it under "Make in India" - will be ridiculous if that happens. Though it has been indigenized, BDL will pay license to Russia for these missiles.

It can be BMP mounted and that may justify the import. But given that we have Heli launched (Dhruvastra, SANT, Helina), Vehicle launched (NAG) & MANPATGM (Amogha & DRDO MANPATGM), I am sure that we can spin up a Jeep/BMP mounted ATGM in no time. And it will sure as hell be a lot more lethal than Konkurs-M. Plus Konkurs is 2nd gen, wire-guided and therefore not fire & forget - exposing the crew.

Maybe a "Konkurs is cheaper because its 2nd gen, wire guided" argument can be made. But even in that case, the unit economics of MANPATGM etc will come down drastically with mass orders, at which point of time, the cost of our 3rd gen ATGMs will be comparable to 2nd gen ones.

So, I am not sure how this purchase is justified. Does the IA have a need for 2nd gen ATGMs because they are cheap and might suffice against certain class of vehicles & its not worth DRDO's time to produce a 2nd gen missile? I don't know.

vonkabra · Post by **vonkabra** » 03 Feb 2022 11:29

John wrote: Interestingly Uran’s where purchased because of Russia’s reluctance to sell Moskit (but they turned around and sold to China).

Far as I recall the Russians were willing to sell the Moskit but we couldn't afford the asking price and went with the cheaper Uran instead.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Feb 2022 11:50

Prem, it seems that Indian army has not been able to identify how NAG fits into it's Anti tank capacity.

If you remember the Namica redesign efforts of the mid teens. After the fixing of the 3.2 km max engagement range during the hottest part of the day, in the hottest part of the country, during the hottest part of the year.

If the Indian army was certain about the missile. It could have asked for it's integration with the BMP upgrade package.

It could also have asked for a jeep mounted system.

But army didn't do so. Two possibilities come to mind.

Maybe they were thinking in terms of spike procurement.

Or the missile's basic design is such that it could not be turned into a single launcher weapon for vehicle mounted application, such as BMP or ATGM Jeep.

Only DRDO can address the issue of the last point.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 03 Feb 2022 12:30

ramana wrote:Uran missile? Russian?

Uran. Kh 35. NATO Codename 'Switchblade'

mody · Post by **mody** » 03 Feb 2022 18:21

vonkabra wrote:
John wrote: Interestingly Uran’s where purchased because of Russia’s reluctance to sell Moskit (but they turned around and sold to China).
Far as I recall the Russians were willing to sell the Moskit but we couldn't afford the asking price and went with the cheaper Uran instead.

Plus the Moskit is heavy and only 8 could be fitted on the Delhi class. In fact INS Delhi had blast shields installed for the Moskit, which were not installed on the Mysore and Mumbai. Uran is cheaper, much lighter and has a slightly longer range. Even the Kora class are equipped with 16 Uran missiles. The Russians old the Sovremenny class destroyers to china, which are armed with the Moskit missile.

The IL-38s and Mig-29K are armed with air launched version of the Uran. No air launched version of the Moskit exists.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Feb 2022 18:59

I have seen those blast shields in person. They were massive. They must have been removed now with the BrahMos upgrade.

John, can you confirm?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Feb 2022 23:05

mody wrote: Plus the Moskit is heavy and only 8 could be fitted on the Delhi class. In fact INS Delhi had blast shields installed for the Moskit, which were not installed on the Mysore and Mumbai. Uran is cheaper, much lighter and has a slightly longer range. Even the Kora class are equipped with 16 Uran missiles. The Russians old the Sovremenny class destroyers to china, which are armed with the Moskit missile.

The IL-38s and Mig-29K are armed with air launched version of the Uran. No air launched version of the Moskit exists.

The Moskit is also supersonic and has a much larger warhead like the Brahmos. Would be a lot more difficult to intercept than the Uran and cause a lot more damage when it hits. There is supposedly an air launched Moskit (Kh-41) but I don't think they were ever operationalized on the Su-33.

John · Post by **John** » 03 Feb 2022 23:15

Rakesh wrote:I have seen those blast shields in person. They were massive. They must have been removed now with the BrahMos upgrade.

John, can you confirm?

Yea looks like blast shields have been removed I believe the advantage of cold launch is that missile is ejected few meters (in inclined angle vs vertical angle for VLS launch) away from superstructure so it reduces the need for these deflectors.

mody wrote:
vonkabra wrote:
Far as I recall the Russians were willing to sell the Moskit but we couldn't afford the asking price and went with the cheaper Uran instead.
Plus the Moskit is heavy and only 8 could be fitted on the Delhi class. In fact INS Delhi had blast shields installed for the Moskit, which were not installed on the Mysore and Mumbai. Uran is cheaper, much lighter and has a slightly longer range. Even the Kora class are equipped with 16 Uran missiles. The Russians old the Sovremenny class destroyers to china, which are armed with the Moskit missile.

The IL-38s and Mig-29K are armed with air launched version of the Uran. No air launched version of the Moskit exists.

Remember hearing mixed stories on why Moskit wasn’t acquired one was there wasn’t enough being supplied by Russia (came from stockpiles and there was concern with fall they may not be able to build more). Other was Russia refused to sell it. Interestingly Russia offered a Frigate with Uran (think it was an export design called Delta don’t quote me on it ) but we turned it down and Russia came back with modified Krivak III with Klub with latter helping clinch the deal. So we ended up acquiring two AshM.

We are going back to 8 Brahmos AshM for Delhi class and plan was 4-8 Brahmos for Kora & Veer class but looks like those plans have been delayed or cancelled (likely due to budget reasons).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Feb 2022 09:39

Kersi D wrote:
ramana wrote:Uran missile? Russian?
Uran. Kh 35. NATO Codename 'Switchblade'

If my question brought Kersi D from lurk mode it was worth it!!!

How have you been?
You should participate more.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Feb 2022 09:41

Think of Konkurs M as short-range guided artillery.
And its made in India

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 04 Feb 2022 10:36

ramana wrote:
Kersi D wrote: Uran. Kh 35. NATO Codename 'Switchblade'

If my question brought Kersi D from lurk mode it was worth it!!!

How have you been?
You should participate more.

THANKS

I take it as a complement

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Feb 2022 20:38

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... COABWA6xIg ---> Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) Integration Facility BDL, Hyderabad.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Feb 2022 20:58

some people were saying it was not TFTA enough ..comparing to Raytheons robotic missile manufacturing

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Feb 2022 05:50

I think there is an ATGM with 105mm diameter in the making.

We have seen this seeker with a lens diameter of 100mm before.

Now, there is a tender for missile with 4 canted nozzles (like in Nag) and a diameter of 103 mm.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Feb 2022 07:36

2 potential candidates come to mind.

1) Gun launched missile for Arjun.
2) Very light and small shoulder fired ATGM. Like the spike SR. With a range of less than 2 km.

srin · Post by **srin** » 11 Feb 2022 10:56

And, gun launched missile for a future 105mm light tank, akin to Falarick missile.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Feb 2022 20:55

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... HYXCJFZzzA ---> Akash missile transportation vehicle.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Feb 2022 00:01

srin wrote:And, gun launched missile for a future 105mm light tank, akin to Falarick missile.

That is my first guess too. We are looking at cannon/gun launched missiles.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 12 Feb 2022 02:57

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... HYXCJFZzzA ---> Akash missile transportation vehicle.

What would be the typical time to reload a launcher with this vehicle?

Will be important parameter to assess how much a Akash launcher foil saturation attacks.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2022 00:29

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... U0pl5D1M9Q ---> Akash Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) ground support system.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Feb 2022 20:49

YashG wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... HYXCJFZzzA ---> Akash missile transportation vehicle.
What would be the typical time to reload a launcher with this vehicle?

Will be important parameter to assess how much a Akash launcher foil saturation attacks.

Reload time has very little bearing on saturation attacks. Counter to them is mostly determined by the magazine of ready to launch rounds you have, your sensor/shooter orientation and readiness etc. Even the most automated full launcher reload systems take 15-25 minutes to fully load the magazine assuming that the reloads have been fully built beforehand. This is clearly not going to help with a saturated attack. Ability to quickly reload does however have an impact of how many waves of attacks you can deter particularly for systems with longer ranges that are defending a large area as there could be multiple targets in their defended area that are attacked at different times.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2022 02:32

Indranil wrote:I think there is an ATGM with 105mm diameter in the making.

We have seen this seeker with a lens diameter of 100mm before.

Now, there is a tender for missile with 4 canted nozzles (like in Nag) and a diameter of 103 mm.

Could be a Multimode seeker for a variety of weapons.
Add G3 GPS and INS guidance.

Eg. MBDA SPEAR.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 14 Feb 2022 23:57

dkhare · Post by **dkhare** » 15 Feb 2022 02:31

@Prasad, amazing explanation of the problems encountered and possible solutions to be developed for achieving hypersonic flight.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 15 Feb 2022 22:27

Thanks. Ideally needs a lot more explanation given just how much is involved but would put all but the most diehard mat-science guys to sleep.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Feb 2022 13:33

Another day, another Brahmos Test

https://twitter.com/ani_digital/status/ ... 1887610880

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 18 Feb 2022 14:22

Aditya_V wrote:Another day, another Brahmos Test

A: Hey I'm feeling bored today, lets go for a drive.
B: No too tired for that. Lets Just order some food and we will test a brahmos.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 20 Feb 2022 19:25

fanne wrote:My question to the learned gurus - One way to increase Brahmos is to add a larger solid (or liquid) fuel ballistic missile plug. It first goes a long distance on that and then the Brahmos ramjet takes over and lugs itself to the next 300-600 Km. But if you make the ballistic plug big, it also increases speed of the missile (along with range), maybe going beyond the ramjet speed regime to the hypersonic regime. Does that puts a theoretical limit on how big the missile can be made (and hence how long can it go)?
Are there boosters that add distance but not speed?

1. The air ducts make hard/ impossible to add a rocket plug.
2. Even if rocket motor added for Ballistic mode will invariably increase maximum speed heating on the airframe, thus aluminum alloy need change-up to much expensive material and mfg process.

Imho range increase needs
A. lengthening (to increase fuel capacity)
and/or
B. Airframe weight reduction, optimization by knowing where to reduce. Where possibly use lighter material. E.g. fins & wing, mid body where fuel tank is absorbing heat.....

John · Post by **John** » 20 Feb 2022 21:15

Haridas wrote:
fanne wrote:My question to the learned gurus - One way to increase Brahmos is to add a larger solid (or liquid) fuel ballistic missile plug. It first goes a long distance on that and then the Brahmos ramjet takes over and lugs itself to the next 300-600 Km. But if you make the ballistic plug big, it also increases speed of the missile (along with range), maybe going beyond the ramjet speed regime to the hypersonic regime. Does that puts a theoretical limit on how big the missile can be made (and hence how long can it go)?
Are there boosters that add distance but not speed?
1. The air ducts make hard/ impossible to add a rocket plug.
2. Even if rocket motor added for Ballistic mode will invariably increase maximum speed heating on the airframe, thus aluminum alloy need change-up to much expensive material and mfg process.

Imho range increase needs
A. lengthening (to increase fuel capacity)
and/or
B. Airframe weight reduction, optimization by knowing where to reduce. Where possibly use lighter material. E.g. fins & wing, mid body where fuel tank is absorbing heat.....

Russian Onyk has already been updated to 700 km it is similar in dimension but the main change is the new solid booster and likely some tweaks to improve efficiency of ramjet engine.

Latest Brahmos test is extended range version but not know if it is 500 or 700 km ranged variant.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2022 23:35

800 km.

John · Post by **John** » 20 Feb 2022 23:37

ramana wrote:800 km.

Has it been confirmed?

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 21 Feb 2022 04:00

Area warning

#AreaWarning #India issues a notification for the launch of an experimental flight vehicle over the #BayOfBengal, included in the danger zone is Abdul Kalam Island - the probable launch site

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 22 Feb 2022 14:11

Infra Red guided air-to-air missile
Does DRDO have any program to develop IR guided AAMs ? I have not heard of any
IMVHO it should not be too difficult to design and make a IR AAM since we have already done a lot of work on radar guided Astra, which i believe in much more complex
Kersi

mody · Post by **mody** » 22 Feb 2022 14:53

Kersi D wrote:Infra Red guided air-to-air missile
Does DRDO have any program to develop IR guided AAMs ? I have not heard of any
IMVHO it should not be too difficult to design and make a IR AAM since we have already done a lot of work on radar guided Astra, which i believe in much more complex
Kersi

There is a program to develop an IR guided AAM, based on Astra. On BR it is referred to as Astra-IR. Don't know if there is a different official name.
Might develop into something similar to MICA-IR or ASRAAM.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Feb 2022 19:46

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... BCXYTOU1Vw ---> Indian missile manufacturer Bharat Dynamics Limited says it is expecting big orders for Astra BVR missiles. BDL order book may increase to Rs 25,000 crores from 11,400 crores in 2-3 years.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Feb 2022 10:58

Kersi D wrote:Infra Red guided air-to-air missile
Does DRDO have any program to develop IR guided AAMs ? I have not heard of any
IMVHO it should not be too difficult to design and make a IR AAM since we have already done a lot of work on radar guided Astra, which i believe in much more complex
Kersi

Yes, Astra-IR already in development.

Also, MPDMS and/or VSHORAD.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Feb 2022 11:22

What's missing (or not adequately prioritized) is a cheap laser-guided ATGM of the Hellfire variety. This can be used by armed UAVs and also on LCH/Rudra & fighter aircraft for ground attack. For use in armed conflict (against tanks, radars etc). Also against jihadis on the LoC, Paki bunkers etc.

It can be a multi-platform missile: ground launched from a tripod, jeeps etc too.

I thought CLGM was a good candidate but it seems to have disappeared from the radar