Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by vijaykarthik »

Deans wrote:
williams wrote:So it is a bit confusing. Can't a regime change be done in a much less expensive means?
Russia's actions are similar to Georgia 2008. 4 day war, after which Georgia realised that Russia's pre-war demands were actually very reasonable.
They lost part of their country (South Ossetia) and suffered enough military and economic damage to the rest of it that voters would never again
choose someone who is Anti Russia. Regime change in Ukraine will probably happen through elections, after the war.

There was a difference last time though. Saakashvili took troops to overrun Tshkinvali and that was a recipe and a decent enough reason for Putin to allow Russian troops to enter and liberate. This time is a lot different. Unprovoked.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rakesh »

chetak wrote:I am very sure that there is a connection to the ukraine situation and some misguided ameriki babooze's idea of pressuring India.

no matter what the "official" reason given, India has definitely come under pressure and this is likely the first casualty.

this is a $3Billion deal onlee
In addition to the Predator drones being cancelled, the option for six additional P-8Is (with COMCASA-cleared equipment) are on hold. This was post the C-295 deal with Airbus. The 12th P-8I just left the Boeing facility and should have arrived in India by now ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7308&start=1920#p2535941
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by vijaykarthik »

Rudradev wrote:That's my assessment too, Baikul ji.

Remember, the time factor is critical for Putin's war aims to succeed. Quick decapitation & replacement of the Zelenskyy regime with relatively little civilian death, injury, property loss & inconvenience... that would have offered the best chance for an installed pro-Moscow regime to enjoy the most popular support (or at least, the minimum public opposition).

The longer this takes, the more civilians suffer, the more any pro-Putin regime will be hated & opposed even if it is successfully installed.

Bad blood against Russia among mango Ukrainians will have increased exponentially, leaving a wide open field for destabilization & 5th-gen warfare by the Western allies.

Which is exactly what NATO & US want... to make Ukraine a bleeding, festering abcess in Russia's side.

Or install a parallel seat of power. Split country into two using a natural geographical landscape / feature. River perhaps. Take all till East Dneiper bank and give the useless rump of W bank to Zelensky to figure out what he can do with it.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Prem Kumar »

This may not be a bad time for India to test TN-bum, ICBM and MIRV
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by vijaykarthik »

EU freezes assets of Putin and Lavrov. Big. Cant remember even LatAm / Africa corrupt leaders being sanctioned / assets frozen (while in power) even by US.

This isnt going to end well. Uk army is also loitering somewhere and there is something that we are missing here.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Baikul »

:(( j
achy wrote:…..

In such a scenario, ideally we dont care where Russia wins in Ukraine or gets bogged down. But for long term, russia getting bogged down may be little more favorable scenario for us as it will weaken Russia and keep west focused on China. Because if Russia wins ukraine easily then West will expend all its energy on Russia as it will be more immediate and mortal threat. A bogged down russia can also suit us as we can use our strategic autonomy to support russia on case by case basis for continued cooperation and not letting fall in China's lap all together. Having said that they are too many vectors as far as short term goals are concerned…...
It’s this part that suggests that supports my contention that there’s little goal clarity emerging in the public space (the government’s position may internally be well thought out). Does a weakened Russia really suit us? Why? Why not a stronger Russia that can help us negotiate China (if one has to take a more positive outlook). A stronger Russia May even make the US more paranoid and unwilling to lose is in Asia. This is just a quick example, as I don’t want to detract from the main thread.

Edit - As a side note Boris Johnson must be very happy that this war has almost erased mention of his recent political problems!
Last edited by Baikul on 26 Feb 2022 00:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Prem Kumar wrote:This may not be a bad time for India to test TN-bum, ICBM and MIRV
Aap ke muh mein ghee shakkar 8)

I was thinking of this for last couple of days:

a.) Test thermonuclear warhead on Agni 5 now.

b.) Or wait till 2024 elections time when biden-harris will be going after us full tongs to defeat BJP.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Baikul wrote: Does a weakened Russia really suit us? Why? Why not a stronger Russia that can help us negotiate China (if one has to take a more positive outlook).
It will be easier to get Yasen SSN Technology and manufacturing here from a weakened desperate Russia.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by sohamn »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:This may not be a bad time for India to test TN-bum, ICBM and MIRV
Aap ke muh mein ghee shakkar 8)

I was thinking of this for last couple of days:

a.) Test thermonuclear warhead on Agni 5 now.

b.) Or wait till 2024 elections time when biden-harris will be going after us full tongs to defeat BJP.

What, are we a North Korea - that we test nuclear weapons when no one is focussed on us. India is not a third rate country, if we need to test a TN then we test it in the open.

Please have a thoughtful discourse.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by sohamn »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Baikul wrote: Does a weakened Russia really suit us? Why? Why not a stronger Russia that can help us negotiate China (if one has to take a more positive outlook).
It will be easier to get Yasen SSN Technology and manufacturing here from a weakened desperate Russia.

Russia will not be a strong negotiating power any more.....they will have a deep economic fallout and will be totally reliant on China. My fear is that, and I hope not, they start leaking Indian military capabilities like our nuclear sub technology to China when push comes to shove.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by williams »

sohamn wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:
It will be easier to get Yasen SSN Technology and manufacturing here from a weakened desperate Russia.

Russia will not be a strong negotiating power any more.....they will have a deep economic fallout and will be totally reliant on China. My fear is that, and I hope not, they start leaking Indian military capabilities like our nuclear sub technology to China when push comes to shove.
Nothing of that sort will happen. This is peanuts compared to the collapse of the former Soviet Union. They might have some short-term economic issues. Putin is not as stupid as the western media portrays. War is always risky, but these guys calculate and take the risk. They are not like Pakis for sure.

Regarding India obtaining technology. We had a lot of options before and even today. Most of the time it is the sleepy nature of our decision-making at fault.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by vijaykarthik »

I think 4-5 HDD of Naval ship plans were also accidentally stolen a couple years back. I wont be surprised if it feel into Chinese hands. It wont require Russia sharing it when its easier to steal HDD's / perform cyber attacks. We are years behind in these tech.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Haresh »

If in doubt, blame India.

The Daily Mail is the MOST read paper in the UK.

The most absurd comment is:
"India should be ashamed of itself maybe we should send the east India company back in, they might see things differently."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... l#comments
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by m_saini »

^Why get offended over a comment on some ragtag paper? Why give some random britshit that much power over you?

I, for one, love seeing such comments. And Britshits have the similar level of comtempt towards french and americans. It just doesn't come out as frequent.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by hanumadu »

Haresh wrote:If in doubt, blame India.

The Daily Mail is the MOST read paper in the UK.

The most absurd comment is:
"India should be ashamed of itself maybe we should send the east India company back in, they might see things differently."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... l#comments
The best response for this is :rotfl:
Just ignore them.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by John »

vijaykarthik wrote:I think 4-5 HDD of Naval ship plans were also accidentally stolen a couple years back. I wont be surprised if it feel into Chinese hands. It wont require Russia sharing it when its easier to steal HDD's / perform cyber attacks. We are years behind in these tech.
Lot of russian tech that Chinese claim to reverse engineer is under the table license transfers no need to steal any tech. Only matter time before Chinese are spitting S-400 which they somehow reverse engineered.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rudradev »

From the Poo Yorker. Haraam link:

Code: Select all

httqs://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/what-is-china-learning-from-russias-invasion-of-ukraine 


(Poo Yorker is haraam, because one of their haraami journos wrote a hit piece about Article 370 co-authored with Rana Ayyub. But anyway, posting this piece on here FWIW, as it may have some interesting insights.)

What Is China Learning from Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine?
Xi Jinping’s unusually close bond with Vladimir Putin puts China in risky company.

By Evan Osnos

February 24, 2022

Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin—the world’s two most powerful autocrats—have a showy, if fraught, friendship. They are men of the same vintage (Putin, at sixty-nine, is eight months older), united in their grief for the collapse of the Soviet Union. Each styles himself a defender of manliness, and a bulwark against decadent democracy. Xi, in an unusually effusive mood, by his standards, once offered Russian reporters a list of treasured moments that he and Putin had shared—including taking in a hockey game side by side and celebrating Putin’s birthday in Bali—and described the former K.G.B. officer as “my closest foreign colleague and my best confidant.”

At times, Xi has taken specific, admiring note of Putin’s tactics. In 2014, years before Xi cracked down on the power of billionaires such as Jack Ma, a prominent Chinese editor told me that Xi was impressed by Putin’s eviction of troublesome oligarchs and his skill in marginalizing his political predecessors. “He became his own man. This is very inspirational to our President,” the editor said.

Beyond the announcements of affection, however, Xi also saw the perils in some of Putin’s foreign-policy adventures. After Russia’s annexation of Crimea, in 2014, Xi told others in Beijing that he respected the operation, the editor said, because Putin “got a large piece of land and resources,” and boosted his popularity at home. But, later, as the war in Ukraine dragged on, and contributed to Russia’s isolation, Xi became less complimentary. He gave Putin some economic relief from Western sanctions, in the form of a four-hundred-billion-dollar deal to supply gas to China, but the deal set rates that favored Beijing. :P China, notably, never officially recognized the annexation of Crimea.

Eight years later, what does their bond mean for the current conflict, and foretell of potential future confrontations? How much diplomatic support will Beijing provide, and what does it say about China’s willingness to embark on missions of its own? As the invasion accelerated this week, scholars and strategists around the world looked for signs of new contours in global power. Angela Stent, a Russia specialist at Georgetown University and the author of “Putin’s World,” said, “I want to underline that Vladimir Putin would not have embarked on this aggression against Ukraine at this time, if he didn’t know that he would have Chinese support.” Stent, one of several scholars who took stock of the China-Russia relationship during a forum on Wednesday at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, in Washington, D.C., added, “He knew that, whatever happened, the Chinese would be there for him,” and that the situation is “a different world” from the relative isolation that Putin faced after the seizure of Crimea. “I think this is the essential backdrop for understanding what Putin is doing,” she said.

By some standards, Russia and China are not natural geopolitical partners. China’s mistrust of Russia runs deep. Even in the heyday of Communist brotherhood, the two sides had long-standing territorial and ideological disputes, and Beijing resented its position as the junior partner to Moscow. These days, Russia’s economy, valued at $1.7 trillion, is scarcely larger than that of New York State. China, by contrast, has the largest or the second-largest G.D.P. in the world, depending on how it’s measured, and, despite stresses on its trade relations, the nation has productive trade links with the United States and Europe that dwarf Russia’s oil-and-gas sales.

But the Russian and Chinese leaders are united, in part, by their belief that the West is in an inexorable decline, which they have framed, in effect, as a vindication of autocracy. During the interview with Russian state media, in which Xi gushed about his friend, he explained their connection in terms that carry greater significance in light of recent events: “We have similar views on the current world situation, have the same philosophy on national governance, and shoulder the historical responsibilities of the two countries’ respective development and revitalization. Most importantly, we have a highly consistent understanding of the strategic significance of Sino-Russian relations.”

That “strategic significance” is the key; their combined power is greater than the sum of its parts, or so the theory goes. And yet, for all the chumminess, the decision to draw close to Putin has forced Xi into an awkward balancing act, because he hopes to establish China as a trusted steward of global power and security—an alternative to the chaos and infighting in Washington. Ukraine is one of China’s economic partners, with more than fifteen billion dollars in bilateral trade flows. It is also part of the Belt and Road Initiative, Xi’s signature infrastructural program, which is intended to project a spirit of magnanimous investment in the world’s improvement.

In the run-up to the invasion, Chinese officials avoided taking an emphatic role, resorting to bland appeals for peace. On Tuesday, Wang Wenbin, a Foreign Ministry spokesperson, made no fewer than seven references to calling on “all parties to exercise restraint” and “de-escalate the situation.” But, by Wednesday, hours before Russia unleashed its full-scale attack, China had taken a more openly pro-Russian position. Hua Chunying, another Foreign Ministry spokesperson, called the United States “the culprit of current tensions surrounding Ukraine,” and gave voice to Putin’s grievances, asking, “When the U.S. drove five waves of nato expansion eastward all the way to Russia’s doorstep, and deployed advanced offensive strategic weapons in breach of its assurances to Russia, did it ever think about the consequences of pushing a big country to the wall?”

Historically, the Chinese Communist Party fretted about other powers seizing territory, fearing that someone could encroach on its own sovereignty. But, under Xi, it has become increasingly brazen about pursuing its territorial ambitions in the South and East China Seas; along the Indian border; and with regard to Taiwan, the democratically ruled archipelago that has become an object of rising threats. With those clashes in mind, Manoj Kewalramani, a China specialist at the Takshashila Institution, a think tank in Bengaluru, India, sees the current China-Russia relationship as a worrying indicator of a growing tolerance for disruptive confrontations. “It’s clear that both sides believe that force and coercion, to varying degrees, and through various tools, are necessary to shape this new order,” he said, at the C.S.I.S. forum on Wednesday. When Putin visited Xi in Beijing earlier this month, they released a major new statement of common purpose, which, notably, included China’s backing of Russia’s objections to nato expansion. Kewalramani regards that statement as “China stepping much further than it did in 2014.” He said, “This is a fundamental shift.”

That shift has inspired concern that Chinese leaders may be watching the invasion of Ukraine as a test case for their own long-held ambition to conquer Taiwan. “We empathize with Ukraine’s situation,” Tsai Ing-wen, Taiwan’s President, said last month, as she announced a task force to study the tensions in Ukraine. On Wednesday, Tsai ordered Taiwan’s security forces to step up surveillance and defenses. But, although Beijing often dispatches warplanes toward Taiwan, there is no sign that an invasion is in the offing. The more immediate risk, in the eyes of some in Taiwan and Washington, is that China will see Putin’s venture as a step toward the normalizing of more aggressive pressure tactics, including what Tsai called “cognitive warfare”—a mix of disinformation, political meddling, and incitement, intended to pry open internal divisions in Taiwan and make its people despair at their vulnerability.

For the moment, though, that is a secondary risk to whatever violence is now unfolding between armed forces and civilians in Ukraine. Jude Blanchette, a China specialist at C.S.I.S. who hosted the group’s forum, suggested that if Ukraine becomes a quagmire—Putin’s Afghanistan—then it may be more of a deterrent than an incentive to observers in Beijing. “If there’s a prolonged, protracted war, with thousands of body bags heading home to Russia, Xi Jinping would do well to reflect on what a similar invasion and occupation in Taiwan might mean for China, Blanchette told the audience. Later, in a conversation with me, he added, “An ineffectual and half-hearted response by the West toward Putin’s invasion couldn’t but feed into Xi’s existing belief that America and its allies are weakening and divided.

By Wednesday night, Russian missiles were striking Ukraine, and troops were landing on its southern coast. In a grim juxtaposition, the United Nations Security Council was still in session, appealing in vain for Putin to withdraw his attack. The United States announced plans to introduce a resolution condemning the actions. Though the measure is doomed to be vetoed by Russia, it would likely force China to signal its commitments more clearly, by abstaining or by joining Russia’s position. The attempt to balance a commitment to Russia with China’s larger bid for global credibility is becoming more difficult by the hour. As violence escalated, China’s U.N. Ambassador, Zhang Jun, told his fellow-members of the Security Council, “We believe that the door to a peaceful solution to the Ukraine issue is not fully shut, nor should it be.”
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by IndraD »

https://twitter.com/sbg1/status/1497231 ... CbD1Z-PmvQ So now Russia believes it can dictate the national security policy of Sweden and Finland. Clear that Putin does not recognize the sovereign right of nations in his neighborhood to self government.

Possible admission of Sweden and Finland to NATO will require "reciprocal steps" — Russian Foreign Ministry https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/statu ... CbD1Z-PmvQ
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Garooda »

syam wrote:
Rakesh wrote: If this *SOME* is America, then that is laughable.

America could never capture Afghanistan. They ran with their tail between their legs. 2001 - 2021. 20 Years.

Iraq, another mess from 2003 onwards! Vietnam, another mess. But Russia did not achieve anything strategic in 1.5 - 2 days.
Okay :lol:
Unreasonable expectations became norm these days, sirji. Also these expectations apply only to the enemies and non-western countries. The allies can take their own sweet time and empty the coffers.
Russians did great in Syria. America was fighting for months there without achieving anything. Have to wonder what's their objective was.
There is a big difference in fighting a war in your backyard vs overseas. The orchestration of military logistics coupled with political disagreements within the system and leaderships, are a huge factors and mind boggling for far away adventures. Fighting it alone vs working with Coalition makes a huge difference. Also the bottom line or objective most of the time may seem to be 'We're in the business of spending money' as far as US is concerned.
Last edited by Garooda on 26 Feb 2022 01:21, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by srikandan »

Jude Blanchette, a China specialist at C.S.I.S. who hosted the group’s forum, suggested that if Ukraine becomes a quagmire—Putin’s Afghanistan—then it may be more of a deterrent than an incentive to observers in Beijing. “If there’s a prolonged, protracted war, with thousands of body bags heading home to Russia, Xi Jinping would do well to reflect on what a similar invasion and occupation in Taiwan might mean for China,” Blanchette told the audience. Later, in a conversation with me, he added, “An ineffectual and half-hearted response by the West toward Putin’s invasion couldn’t but feed into Xi’s existing belief that America and its allies are weakening and divided.”
Is Jude Blanchett quoting "kill a chicken to scare the monkey" from the Chinese book of shi-tzu...or is it sun-tzu? I forget. Instead of China becoming more like America, the reverse is happening, as we can see CCP-like authoritarian behavior of USA, Canada, EU govts. People are being beaten down and stomped on for wanting freedom in Canada, USA, Netherlands and many other EU countries. Who would have thought.
Last edited by srikandan on 26 Feb 2022 01:24, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by GShankar »

Baikul wrote: Does a weakened Russia really suit us? Why? Why not a stronger Russia that can help us negotiate China (if one has to take a more positive outlook).
I would venture a guess that a better deal could be struck by us negotiating directly instead of anyone else including russia. Mai baaps cut a side deal for themselves while negotiating for us. We need to get rid of them in that aspect.
Manish_Sharma wrote: It will be easier to get Yasen SSN Technology and manufacturing here from a weakened desperate Russia.
Absolutely!! though that could be a reach.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rakesh »

Haresh wrote:If in doubt, blame India.

The Daily Mail is the MOST read paper in the UK.

The most absurd comment is:
"India should be ashamed of itself maybe we should send the east India company back in, they might see things differently."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... l#comments
The British East India Company has been defunct for around 175 years.

Such a comment will likely come from someone who has Indian heritage. You know the ones who reminisce and romance about the beautiful years when the British "managed" India. They are the only ones who still think of the British East India Company. Classic Brown Sahib behaviour.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Cain Marko »

Rudradev wrote:From the Poo Yorker. Haraam link:

Code: Select all

httqs://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/what-is-china-learning-from-russias-invasion-of-ukraine 


(Poo Yorker is haraam, because one of their haraami journos wrote a hit piece about Article 370 co-authored with Rana Ayyub. But anyway, posting this piece on here FWIW, as it may have some interesting insights.)
Sirji, I humbly request to put Pooyork times and Wapoo in your and also BRF haram list... Their constant berating of all things Indian has gone too far.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rakesh »

Garooda wrote:There is a big difference in fighting a war in your backyard vs overseas. The orchestration of military logistics coupled with political disagreements within the system and leaderships, are a huge factors and mind boggling for far away adventures. Fighting it alone vs working with Coalition makes a huge difference. Also the bottom line or objective most of the time may seem to be 'We're in the business of spending money' as far as US is concerned.
You would think that in Iraq and Afghanistan, the world's sole superpower would have prevailed. A coalition only strengthens the argument you are making, especially when it comes to logistics. The fact of the matter is when American troops get on the ground, the mythical American MIC falls down like a deck of cards. Being a superpower, you should be able to have your coalition partners adopt your train of thought and subsequent strategy. If that cannot occur, then why call yourself a superpower?

The jury is still out on Ukraine and whether Russia will prevail, but your comparisons of the two do not pass muster.

The American Army is incapable of fighting and prevailing in a ground/urban war. That is the simple fact.

They could not even defeat a bunch of rag tag Somalis in 1993.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by chetak »

AkshaySG wrote:A flurry of deals with Russia were canceled in the last couple of months too.. Including the Kamov chopper deals and the extra Migs, etc.

It is all under the banner of promoting Atmanirbharta but the PM and MOD must have seen the writing on the wall as well.
The kamovs were to use the french made Turbomeca/Safran Arrius 2G1 turboshaft engines that would be subject to sanctions under the CAATSA, and also, the locally made kamovs would cost almost double of what the russkis were asking for russki made kamovs and many issues of tech transfer and local content.

so there was no chance of the engines being made in India, which was the deal breaker.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by John »

It was also interesting that Russians seem to be really pushing for deals to be signed in past couple months I did wonder the reason for the push and I remember linking it to their economy in one of my posts.

For example offering three refurbished Kilo submarines and upgrading them rather than new ones. They would gotten access to half the $$ right away in the former deal.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Cain Marko »

Almost all of Indian media is critical of Russia/Putin. Without exception. From Arnab to wion to rundtv
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rudradev »

Cain Marko wrote:Almost all of Indian media is critical of Russia/Putin. Without exception. From Arnab to wion to rundtv
Especially with Arnab & TimesNow... it's so anti-Russia that it's hard to imagine some word hasn't come from Bharat Sarkaar.

Let's see what their tone is over the next 2 days. If it becomes more moderate, it could be because I&B Min has sent them a message to cool it. This could be confirmed by looking at DD's tone as well. Typically, at least these channels will follow express directives from GOI in the realm of foreign affairs.

But if it continues to be anti-Russia that might mean something very different. It could be that GOI is encouraging that for some reason, maybe to signal that Indian public opinion is turning against Moscow.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by John »

Cain Marko wrote:Almost all of Indian media is critical of Russia/Putin. Without exception. From Arnab to wion to rundtv
Media is generally run by liberals and Putin isn’t exactly a champion of Liberal values.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by IndraD »

wion was also anti Trump. Palkisu was gloating over Biden win like a US citizen
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1 ... G5EulFlu4g ---> BREAKING: In a video conference call last night Ukraine President Zelensky told EU leaders: "This might be the last time you see me alive", two sources briefed on the call told me.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Cain Marko »

Rudradev wrote: But if it continues to be anti-Russia that might mean something very different. It could be that GOI is encouraging that for some reason, maybe to signal that Indian public opinion is turning against Moscow.
That's my guess too. Something seems to be brewing, goi wants to extract some price, hopefully. The FMs stance otoh was quite balanced and even scathing of NATO. Can't figure it out.

Or it could be just that the media is liberal as John was saying. But Republic? I even saw a lady anchor on India tv literally screaming and berating the Russians in Hindi. Remarkable.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 26 Feb 2022 02:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Cain Marko »

IndraD wrote:wion was also anti Trump. Palkisu was gloating over Biden win like a US citizen
I can understand if women are straight up anti trump, the guy was a pig. And that grabbing women by their ***** line didn't go down well, at all. Hell he even had a tough time convincing ultra conservative Laura Ingram on her show, and she was trying to help the man. Kept insisting that "women loved him for keeping them secure" :shock: :rotfl:
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Garooda »

Rakesh wrote: You would think that in Iraq and Afghanistan, the world's sole superpower would have prevailed. A coalition only strengthens the argument you are making, especially when it comes to logistics. The fact of the matter is when American troops get on the ground, the mythical American MIC falls down like a deck of cards. Being a superpower, you should be able to have your coalition partners adopt your train of thought and subsequent strategy. If that cannot occur, then why call yourself a superpower?

The jury is still out on Ukraine and whether Russia will prevail, but your comparisons of the two do not pass muster.
The American Army is incapable of fighting and prevailing in a ground/urban war. That is the simple fact.
They could not even defeat a bunch of rag tag Somalis in 1993.
Incapabilities may exist. But the statement "We're in the business of spending money" holds true for a War based economy let alone improving the winning capabilities of ground troops.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rakesh »

Garooda wrote:Incapabilities may exist. But the statement "We're in the business of spending money" holds true for a War based economy let alone improving the winning capabilities of ground troops.
Indeed on the money bit. That is what the American MIC is all about.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rakesh wrote:If this *SOME* is America, then that is laughable.
Just now heard a major general (Keen? IIRC) on Fox news. He was saying that Russians are not really advancing on the eastern front. They want the Ukie forces to be engaged on the eastern front so that the Russians can take Kyiv. Then they will start advancing. It is like a hammer and an anvil. Ukr forces will be fought between the Russians advancing from the east and the Russian airforce making their life difficult while they retreat back towards Kyiv. That is why Russians haven't taken Odesa as well. It is a feint. It gives some hope to the Ukies that they can hold the Russians along the line of contact but probably they would not be able to.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by KL Dubey »

Given the intense badgering from both the Russian and US sides, the obvious independent decision for India is to abstain on any UN vote. We did this in 2014 when there was a UN vote to condemn Russia for annexing Crimea.

I would expect the PRC to abstain as well, as they did in 2014.

It will be interesting if India does actually vote...a departure from past policy of not getting too involved in cold war legacy conflicts.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Garooda »

Rakesh wrote:Indeed on the money bit. That is what the American MIC is all about.
All about the Benjamins 8) and not much about the soldiers. The sad truth upto a certain, if not great extent.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rakesh »

Vayutuvan wrote:Just now heard a major general (Keen? IIRC) on Fox news. He was saying that Russians are not really advancing on the eastern front. They want the Ukie forces to be engaged on the eastern front so that the Russians can take Kyiv. Then they will start advancing. It is like a hammer and an anvil. Ukr forces will be fought between the Russians advancing from the east and the Russian airforce making their life difficult while they retreat back towards Kyiv. That is why Russians haven't taken Odesa as well. It is a feint. It gives some hope to the Ukies that they can hold the Russians along the line of contact but probably they would not be able to.
Fox News is among the least reliable news outlets out there. I would be wary of anything that comes out of Fox News, as out of CNN as well.

It is going to be a while before one can make any educated guess as who ultimately prevailed - Ukraine or Russia.

Right now, the Ukranians appear to be fighting to the last man, last round. The Russians are no less either and are just being brutal. I just saw a video on twitter of a Russian armoured vehicle literally and purposefully run over a civilian vehicle with people in it. The civilian vehicle tried to get out of the way, but the Russian armoured vehicle drove right into its path. This is the reality of war.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rakesh »

Garooda wrote:All about the Benjamins 8) and not much about the soldiers. The sad truth upto a certain, if not great extent.
Sad, but the reality.

All this talk of freedom, rule of law, democracy and international rules based order is for 5th standard civics class.
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