Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

KL Dubey · Post by **KL Dubey** » 03 Mar 2022 21:41

It looks like the black sea fleet is getting into action with an impending assault on Odessa port. The whole coast will be closed to any external military supplies. The Hungarians have already declined to allow weapons transit. Let's see how long the Poles and Romanians can keep at it. I think it will be curtains for Pakraine in about a week.

On another note, it is interesting how many people in USA look up to Packeestan for inspiration:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/02/worl ... ussia.html

More supplies of ground-to-air missiles like Stingers and antitank weapons like the Javelin are crucial, as is secure communications equipment, so the Ukrainian government can continue to be in contact with its military and its people if the Russians take down the internet, said Douglas Lute, a former lieutenant-general and American ambassador to NATO.

“On NATO territory, we should be the Pa**stan,” he said, stockpiling matériel in Poland and organizing supply lines to the Ukrainians as Pa**stan supplied the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 03 Mar 2022 21:47

KL Dubey wrote:It looks like the black sea fleet is getting into action with an impending assault on Odessa port. The whole coast will be closed to any external military supplies. The Hungarians have already declined to allow weapons transit. Let's see how long the Poles and Romanians can keep at it. I think it will be curtains for Pakraine in about a week.

On another note, it is interesting how many people in USA look up to Packeestan for inspiration:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/02/worl ... ussia.html

More supplies of ground-to-air missiles like Stingers and antitank weapons like the Javelin are crucial, as is secure communications equipment, so the Ukrainian government can continue to be in contact with its military and its people if the Russians take down the internet, said Douglas Lute, a former lieutenant-general and American ambassador to NATO.

“On NATO territory, we should be the Pakistan,” he said, stockpiling matériel in Poland and organizing supply lines to the Ukrainians as Pakistan supplied the Taliban in Afghanistan.

What happens after its curtains for Pakraine? I'm honestly curious.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 03 Mar 2022 21:54

Anant wrote:
Also, for all of you American haters, it seems to me that the C-17s outperform the IL-76s in pretty much everything. That's a real shame isn't it?

big chance of C-17s becoming defunct due to sanctions before they complete their frame life. At that time inefficient il76 will be handy.

Something for America-lovers to ponder.

Remember how during '98 sanctions our Tejas scientists were pushed and insulted out of American labs. Even their made in India Tejas parts were confiscated.

KL Dubey · Post by **KL Dubey** » 03 Mar 2022 21:55

Anant wrote: What happens after its curtains for Pakraine? I'm honestly curious.

I don't think anyone here knows exactly what Volodya is thinking....

Going by what he stated last week before launching the invasion: I am guessing that Pakraine military establishments will be systematically dismantled, the army will be disbanded or dramatically shrunk, Zelensky et al will be in the slammer (or in jannat), and a puppet regime will be established with some sort of treaty that hands defense and foreign policy to Russia. Donetsk and Lugansk will become independent and/or join Russia.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 03 Mar 2022 21:56

KL Dubey wrote:
Karan M wrote:Y'all mean the sanctions aren't knocking them Iranians down...?
Much smaller and much less capable country.

KL Dubey Saru, u did not get the joke

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 03 Mar 2022 21:57

hanumadu wrote:The Indian government should stop students and citizens going to unstable countries. After the 2014 Crimean takeover, Ukraine became a conflict zone and Indian students shouldn't have been allowed there. China is another country Indian students or citizens shouldn't be allowed. China has far less compunctions than Ukraine to use them as hostages. I see some Indians marrying Chinese too and settling in China. How dumb can they be?

Nothing dumb in that. We are not able to make enough institutions to cater increasing population. And one more thing any simple institute in Uki or Russia is far far better than anything you get in India. Student gets exposure to other students from 100 s of countries. Learn about culture, politics, traditions and people. In India you learn to bring down others so that you can climb. women folks are treated as fair game. Sports are real sports and not muscle making drama to impress girls. Frankly when you see this Gym culture, bad language, gang culture, Jat Gujjar drama, senseless Punjabi Puja, big big words in the name of patriotism, cast religious poisoning.............I would send my child any time. I studied in Russia. Weekly debates at students club ( with scientists and politicians), Weekend Theater, classic music, Olympic medalists are sports teachers.
It is fashionable to discard these countries as they are not as rich as US or Europe. I had my kids studying in UK. I know what I am talking. It is just window dressing. I spent hours on skype to explain simple basic science. Field work is great. My friends studying Geographics were in Kamchatka for for course work (flown all the way once a year). If you have academic hunger..........these are places to be. And yes you do not have to clean vessels in order to make the ends meet.
We in India do not know how badly we live. Salam

ritesh · Post by **ritesh** » 03 Mar 2022 21:58

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Anant wrote:
Also, for all of you American haters, it seems to me that the C-17s outperform the IL-76s in pretty much everything. That's a real shame isn't it?
big chance of C-17s becoming defunct due to sanctions before they complete their frame life. At that time inefficient il76 will be handy.

Something for America-lovers to ponder.

Remember how during '98 sanctions our Tejas scientists were pushed and insulted out of American labs. Even their made in India Tejas parts were confiscated.

Manish ji, that's why we need Make in India for the World and Made in India for our domestic strategic requirements.

KL Dubey · Post by **KL Dubey** » 03 Mar 2022 22:03

Atmavik wrote:
KL Dubey wrote:
Much smaller and much less capable country.
KL Dubey Saru, u did not get the joke

Oh.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 03 Mar 2022 22:05

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Anant wrote:
Also, for all of you American haters, it seems to me that the C-17s outperform the IL-76s in pretty much everything. That's a real shame isn't it?
big chance of C-17s becoming defunct due to sanctions before they complete their frame life. At that time inefficient il76 will be handy.

Something for America-lovers to ponder.

Remember how during '98 sanctions our Tejas scientists were pushed and insulted out of American labs. Even their made in India Tejas parts were confiscated.

Yet they still fly with GE engines....

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 03 Mar 2022 22:08

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Mar 2022 22:12

His end game is to live in peace. Given the US Ukrainian provocations of the last 20 years.

Independent existence of Ukraine is no longer possible.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 03 Mar 2022 22:13

Of all the things I have seen this really takes the cake

https://www.msn.com/en-in/entertainment ... reappshare

That fraud publicity seeker has been caught taking credit for other people’s work. He is at it again… shameless!

What did he charter a C-17?

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 03 Mar 2022 22:18

AFP News Agency
@AFP
#BREAKING Russian oil giant Lukoil calls for halt to Ukraine war

This is the second largest Russian oil producer. I’d say this is significant.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Mar 2022 22:23

Anant wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:
big chance of C-17s becoming defunct due to sanctions before they complete their frame life. At that time inefficient il76 will be handy.

Something for America-lovers to ponder.

Remember how during '98 sanctions our Tejas scientists were pushed and insulted out of American labs. Even their made in India Tejas parts were confiscated.
Yet they still fly with GE engines....

The C-17, C-130, P-8I and Chinooks have been a very good investment like the Su-30MKI and Brahmos. India needs to maintain its neutrality and is big enough strategically and economically to do that.

John · Post by **John** » 03 Mar 2022 22:25

Su-34 has been shot down, we saw some parts yesterday thought it was underbelly of Mi-17 but given the addl pieces it’s safe to say the cameo is def a Su-34. Not much left of it.

https://twitter.com/ukraine_af/status/1 ... 66722?s=21

Ukr has acknowledged Kharkov has been captured by Russian forces

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 03 Mar 2022 22:34

Don't know if it holds any water but none the less a completely different take on removal of Russia from SWIFT. Pls do read the entire thread.

https://twitter.com/MumbaichaDon/status ... 4o4LA&s=19

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 03 Mar 2022 22:36

Mort Walker wrote:
Anant wrote: Yet they still fly with GE engines....
The C-17, C-130, P-8I and Chinooks have been a very good investment like the Su-30MKI and Brahmos. India needs to maintain its neutrality and is big enough strategically and economically to do that.

I would agree with you on this point. The Apaches are also holding their own in the Himalayas and the Vajra is essentially an S. Korean product. There are many on here who believe it's either Russia or the high road and that is an extreme fallacy. Many want the American Empire to end and maybe that will come to pass but you might not want to witness what will replace it. It might be far worse.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 03 Mar 2022 22:38

John wrote:Su-34 has been shot down, we saw some parts yesterday thought it was underbelly of Mi-17 but given the addl pieces it’s safe to say the cameo is def a Su-34. Not much left of it.

https://twitter.com/ukraine_af/status/1 ... 66722?s=21

Ukr has acknowledged Kharkov has been captured by Russian forces

On the Su-34 shoot down all I saw in this and other videos was churned earth, small whitish particle like objects littered across, and one or two maybe 3 feet by 4 feet metal parts in a particular scheme that the Su- 34 has. Honestly I’ve never read of a plane loss so catastrophic.

Kharkov? That’s something. Or do you mean Kherson?

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 03 Mar 2022 22:42

That must be some shoot down...if a massive plane & supposedly armoured (at least cockpit) like Su-34 can crash with everything torn in to pieces...not much left except for crater and multiple fasteners and torn metal...unless it site was cleared off debris

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Mar 2022 22:44

We have a real firecracker in Modi's Team

He has coordinated outstandingly and pulled a rabbit out of the hat every single time

He is a real find, and a polished diamond in international affairs

Yes, Modi would have spoken to Putin repeatedly but it is Foreign Minister Jaishankar who has done all the heavy lifting

Paused a war for six hours outstanding onlee, way to go India

Abhijit Iyer-Mitra@Iyervval

India paused a war for 6-8 hours just to get Indians out - a war that nobody, not the US, not the EU, has been able to stop.

Let that sink in.

12:52 am · 3 Mar 2022

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 03 Mar 2022 22:46

rsingh wrote:
hanumadu wrote:The Indian government should stop students and citizens going to unstable countries. After the 2014 Crimean takeover, Ukraine became a conflict zone and Indian students shouldn't have been allowed there. China is another country Indian students or citizens shouldn't be allowed. China has far less compunctions than Ukraine to use them as hostages. I see some Indians marrying Chinese too and settling in China. How dumb can they be?
Nothing dumb in that. ...

I clearly said that students should not be allowed to unstable countries and mentioned conflict in Ukraine after 2014. I didn't say Russia. Also specifically mentioned enemy countries like China. You seemed to have missed all the key words in my post.

John · Post by **John** » 03 Mar 2022 22:49

Baikul wrote:
John wrote:Su-34 has been shot down, we saw some parts yesterday thought it was underbelly of Mi-17 but given the addl pieces it’s safe to say the cameo is def a Su-34. Not much left of it.

https://twitter.com/ukraine_af/status/1 ... 66722?s=21

Ukr has acknowledged Kharkov has been captured by Russian forces
On the Su-34 shoot down all I saw in this and other videos was churned earth, small whitish particle like objects littered across, and one or two maybe 3 feet by 4 feet metal parts in a particular scheme that the Su- 34 has. Honestly I’ve never read of a plane loss so catastrophic.

Kharkov? That’s something. Or do you mean Kherson?

Err you are right all these names sound the same. As for Su-34 could be some of larger debris were removed, I know the wing was displayed yesterday and is no longer present, noticing the fact that they have excavator in the background definetly some salvaging was happening (not sure if it military Intel purpose or just scavenging for metal).

“Russian forces have fully captured the building of the Kherson Oblast Administration, according to governor Hennadiy Lahuta.”

https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/sta ... 39521?s=21

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Mar 2022 22:50

Zynda wrote:That must be some shoot down...if a massive plane & supposedly armoured (at least cockpit) like Su-34 can crash with everything torn in to pieces...not much left except for crater and multiple fasteners and torn metal...unless it site was cleared off debris

The armor does not protect against SAMs and AAMs. If an aircraft gets hit with a missile at 10 or 20 thousand feet and pilot is killed or ejects, it is going to plummet straight down and hit the ground at very high speeds and shatter into a million pieces. Armor or no armor.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 03 Mar 2022 23:08

nachiket wrote:
Zynda wrote:That must be some shoot down...if a massive plane & supposedly armoured (at least cockpit) like Su-34 can crash with everything torn in to pieces...not much left except for crater and multiple fasteners and torn metal...unless it site was cleared off debris
The armor does not protect against SAMs and AAMs. If an aircraft gets hit with a missile at 10 or 20 thousand feet and pilot is killed or ejects, it is going to plummet straight down and hit the ground at very high speeds and shatter into a million pieces. Armor or no armor.

To the point where the crash site looks mostly like just scattered small confetti? Feels unusual.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 03 Mar 2022 23:13

hanumadu wrote:
rsingh wrote: Nothing dumb in that. ...
I clearly said that students should not be allowed to unstable countries and mentioned conflict in Ukraine after 2014. I didn't say Russia. Also specifically mentioned enemy countries like China. You seemed to have missed all the key words in my post.

Until there is war, any of these countries are safer then India. That is the point. Why do you think if somebody is studying in China then he is traitor? What about mind boggling anti india sentiments amongst wester educated people? Even people living jn India are ready to sell motherland for 500 USD

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Mar 2022 23:17

Baikul wrote:
nachiket wrote: The armor does not protect against SAMs and AAMs. If an aircraft gets hit with a missile at 10 or 20 thousand feet and pilot is killed or ejects, it is going to plummet straight down and hit the ground at very high speeds and shatter into a million pieces. Armor or no armor.
To the point where the crash site looks mostly like just scattered small confetti? Feels unusual.

There have been airline crashes with dozens of people on board where the crash site looks like that.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 03 Mar 2022 23:17

Deans wrote:
Div wrote:Btw IAF has a serious airbridge going between Delhi and Romania/Hungary/Poland with the C-17s. At least 3 round trips already today with another 3 outbound (IFC2622, IFC3822, IFC2822).
No other country has even attempted an evacuation on this scale. Not China or US or EU. Something to be proud of.

+1

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 03 Mar 2022 23:21

Pratyush wrote:
Deans wrote:
No other country has even attempted an evacuation on this scale. Not China or US or EU. Something to be proud of.
In the last few years. I think we are averaging one evacuation every 2 years.

Something is very wrong that our people are ending up in so many conflict zones.

If IAF (plus civil aviation) can evacuate 20k+ from a war zone in a short timeframe, does it imply the reverse?

That they can (with some favorable conditions) deploy the same number of soldiers in the same timeframe?

Just posing the Q as food for thought.

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 03 Mar 2022 23:22

Tanaji wrote:Poor dog has no idea what is in store for him. India is no place for Huskies and malamutes.

Wo bhi firangi dog. Apni gali ke desi kuttes....I can only imagine

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 03 Mar 2022 23:25

https://youtu.be/tFnl81osXUI

Watch the first few mins of students from Ukraine.

Some entitled bunch is saying bringing them back from Romania and Poland is not evacuation. They needed GOI to act in Ukraine.

Wonder why they did not give up there seat and stayed back in refugee camps

srikandan · Post by **srikandan** » 03 Mar 2022 23:33

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 ... nhhs8pAAAA

Putin asking Ukrainian neo-nazis to let foreigners out of war zone and not use them as human shield.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 03 Mar 2022 23:42

The UA’s war effort seems to be crystallising around three ultimate centre’s of resistance, all cities: Kharkiv in the North East, Kyiv in the West/ Northwest and Odessa in the South West. With small towns in between becoming strongholds. (Melitopol, Mariupol, Kherson. Chernihiv, etc). Meanwhile ambushing Russian supply lines on highways and other targets of opportunity, through ground or air assets.

in the South and South West the Ukrainian army has pulled to the West of the Bug river, possibly to consolidate around Odessa. It’s been a ‘somewhat’ or comparatively easy run for Russia. Odessa will be the major point of resistance.

To East the Russians / Donbas militia haven’t been able to finish off Ukranian resistance despite gains. Fighting continues around Mariupol.

In the North East, Kharkiv continues to hold and will be a major point of resistance. Apparently it is yet to be encircled, and as a consequence the UA in the Donbas area has avoided the threat of encirclement.

Kyiv of course is the centre of all resistance with attacks coming from multiple directions; however the UA today claimed it was counterattacking

John · Post by **John** » 03 Mar 2022 23:52

Looks like Kharkiv hit was from a Kalibr missile as per this post based on frame by frame analysis it was reported by Ukranians earlier as an Isklander. Gives you an idea how destructive it is.

https://twitter.com/ferencdv/status/149 ... 75202?s=21

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Mar 2022 23:53

Garooda wrote:
Tanaji wrote:Poor dog has no idea what is in store for him. India is no place for Huskies and malamutes.
Wo bhi firangi dog. Apni gali ke desi kuttes....I can only imagine

Better to take a dog to India over a Paki.

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 03 Mar 2022 23:55

Mort Walker wrote:
Garooda wrote: Wo bhi firangi dog. Apni gali ke desi kuttes....I can only imagine
Better to take a dog to India over a Paki.

+100

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Mar 2022 23:59

hanumadu wrote:
rsingh wrote: Nothing dumb in that. ...
I clearly said that students should not be allowed to unstable countries and mentioned conflict in Ukraine after 2014. I didn't say Russia. Also specifically mentioned enemy countries like China. You seemed to have missed all the key words in my post.

make them all carry compulsory insurance for repatriation and endorse this in the passport.

no insurance, no ticket to leave India hence no freeloading

achy · Post by **achy** » 04 Mar 2022 00:05

Article 21 of Constitution of India: Protection of Life and Personal Liberty covers Right to travel Abroad... Does it also mean that Indian State is duty bound to bring back Indian citizen from Abroad? Or is there some other constitutional provision that covers it?

I do understand that it is moral and humanitarian obligation of Indian state to help Indian citizen in distress.. but my question is legal rather then moral?

Entitlement creep has made us a nation of entitled.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 04 Mar 2022 00:17

There is another side to this - imagine the govt left these students to fend for themselves and are taken hostage. That would be a massive headache at home and outside. All indians abroad given our huge diaspora will start becoming opportunistic targets for some group or hostile govt sans scrupules.

The govt rather spend money and energy getting them back and be done with it.

This is a secondary but nevertheless very important reason. The first being discharching it's duty to protect its citizens as a honorable nation.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 04 Mar 2022 00:22

Anant wrote:What is Putin's end game? I am serious. So you destroy and defang a country. Then what? Form a partnership with India and China versus the rest of the world? Is that it?

Also, for all of you American haters, it seems to me that the C-17s outperform the IL-76s in pretty much everything. That's a real shame isn't it?

@Anantji - I hear your frustration, but while I am super confused about what is Putin's strategic objective here and fear he has lost the plot in trying to overrun Ukraine, I can also understand his anger with NATO and the constant threat of being pushed around.

This is a very difficult situation for India as Russia has been one of India's staunchest allies but if these sanctions remain then they will certainly be pushed to China's lap.
This is a dream come true for China as they will get to ally with Russia militarily in the future wars to come. Furthermore, USA and EU will be more Russia focussed than in Indo-Pacific and this will further embolden China.

A larger war with China will come in 10-15 years, and I hope
a) India becomes stronger militarily and atmanirbhar in sensitive weapon systems.
b) India exceeds 10 trillion in GDP to fight the war economically.
c) India aggressively minimizes dependency on Oil , reduces current account deficit and lowers debt to gdp ratio

KL Dubey · Post by **KL Dubey** » 04 Mar 2022 00:34

Garooda wrote:
Tanaji wrote:Poor dog has no idea what is in store for him. India is no place for Huskies and malamutes.
Wo bhi firangi dog. Apni gali ke desi kuttes....I can only imagine

Just keeping thangz a little light....turns out there were not one but two dawgs on dat flyte.

https://twitter.com/Gen_VKSingh/status/ ... 2M7k_dSk-g