Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

saip · Post by **saip** » 13 Mar 2022 00:51

Look at the dumb questions:

Explanation of the measures and procedures in place to prevent accidental missile launches and the particular circumstances of this incident.
Explanation of the type and specifications of the missile that fell in Pakistani territory.
Elaboration on the flight path/trajectory of the accidentally launched missile and how it ultimately turned and entered Pakistan.
Was the missile equipped with a self-destruct mechanism? Why did it fail to actualise?
Were Indian missiles kept primed for launch even under routine maintenance?
Why did India fail to immediately inform Pakistan about the accidental launch of the missile and waited to acknowledge it till after Pakistan announced the incident and sought clarification?
Explanation if the missile was indeed handled by its armed forces or some rogue elements given the profound "level of incompetence".

Last q uses 'undiplomatic language'
Do they really expect India to respond?
This is from Dawn.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 13 Mar 2022 01:01

Anoop, you are right. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

ManuJ wrote: But on a serious note, this is unpardonable. Heads need to roll.

sohamn wrote:If this was a mistake then it is unpardonable and not acceptable. I am also surprised at the hyper jingoism in BRF where instead of going into a technical discussion we are treating it like a joke.

Excuse me, you two? No head need to roll nor it is “unpardonable” that an accidental launch with zero casualties or fatalities (as per even Pakis) occur against a country that executes Indian civilians or soldiers without humanity for decades.

So you both are not going to judge, GoI have clarified it is accidental and that is the final word as far as this forum is considered. If you feel this forum is too jingoistic because we don’t kowtow to your sensibilities towards paki POVs, you are welcome to ignore this forum.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 13 Mar 2022 01:01

Mukesh.Kumar wrote: None of that sir. Found out the real reason.

It was a Bong Commanding officer ......
After a long day at work, inspecting missiles and launchers, he said:
"Oodi Baba...Eetna der ho giya!!! Cholo, obhi launch korta hai!!"
......and instead of proceeding to the mess for LUNCH, someone pressed the "LAUNCH" botton!!!!

This has to be the best explanation. +1001

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 13 Mar 2022 02:06

If someone wants to believe this was accidental sure go ahead... However, what's the probability that first of all it was an accidental launch(crews train like crazy I have seen them doing it with Prithvi 24 years ago), even if it was, look at the trajectory swing, so apart from accidental launch we couldn't track and self destruct it (wow I need to believe this now!!), If it was ops ready why was there no war head, okie everything failed and eventually it travelled 120km into toilet territory and almost as if on cue crashes into a building(not some vacant place), and after all this the Pakees keep quiet, .... Whatever... I believe the message was delivered or the target was destroyed or both ... Jolly

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 13 Mar 2022 03:14

hnair wrote:
ManuJ wrote: But on a serious note, this is unpardonable. Heads need to roll.
Excuse me, you two? No head need to roll nor it is “unpardonable” that an accidental launch with zero casualties or fatalities (as per even Pakis) occur against a country that executes Indian civilians or soldiers without humanity for decades.

So you both are not going to judge, GoI have clarified it is accidental and that is the final word as far as this forum is considered. If you feel this forum is too jingoistic because we don’t kowtow to your sensibilities towards paki POVs, you are welcome to ignore this forum.

Whoa! Who cares about the Pakis and how did you make that leap of judgement?
I'm concerned about the break-down in the processes, procedures, chain of command, etc. that led to this incident.
A missile like the Brahmos is not fired accidentally that easily.
There are multiple checks and balances, predefined procedures that are heavily tested & verified, and pre-fed targets.
I know it will investigated very seriously & thoroughly to ensure such an incident is not repeated.
I will be very surprised if at the end of the investigation, there aren't any consequences for the people involved.

The government often speaks diplomatically or euphemistically due to multiple constraints.
Taking the government's official statement at mouth value is not how a serious defense forum should work.
This is not a government mouth-piece, and I hope it stays that way.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 13 Mar 2022 03:21

The official statement by MoD is that it was a technical malfunction during routine (periodic) maintenance. I would take what has been stated at face value. What needs to be done is to determine if technical orders for Periodic Maintenance (PMs) need to be revised including who in the chain of command needs to be informed in the event of an accident. This is a time not to blame individuals, but to strengthen operational procedures and logistics. When things like this have happened in US DoD, usually the service chiefs, command officers, and members of congress complain of lack of funding where the military branch needs to be funded better.

Statement on accidental firing of missile
Posted On: 11 MAR 2022 6:33PM by PIB Delhi
On 9 March 2022, in the course of a routine maintenance, a technical malfunction led to the accidental firing of a missile.

The Government of India has taken a serious view and ordered a high-level Court of Enquiry.

It is learnt that the missile landed in an area of Pakistan. While the incident is deeply regrettable, it is also a matter of relief that there has been no loss of life due to the accident.

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1805148

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Mar 2022 04:19

ManuJ wrote:I'm concerned about the break-down in the processes, procedures, chain of command, etc. that led to this incident.

Who in BRF is going to illustrate the above for you with any certainty of clarity? Anyone in the know will not spill that out on a public defence forum either. We will be making speculations onlee. Is that how you want - as you say - a "serious" defence forum to work? Are we now going to pass judgements based on guesses?

ManuJ wrote:A missile like the Brahmos is not fired accidentally that easily.
There are multiple checks and balances, predefined procedures that are heavily tested & verified, and pre-fed targets.
I know it will investigated very seriously & thoroughly to ensure such an incident is not repeated.
I will be very surprised if at the end of the investigation, there aren't any consequences for the people involved.

When those consequences are doled out, will the media be advised? I am still waiting for many Court of Inquiries to be made public. They are all completed, but they will never be revealed. You and me will never know the outcomes and neither should we.

ManuJ wrote:The government often speaks diplomatically or euphemistically due to multiple constraints.
Taking the government's official statement at mouth value is not how a serious defense forum should work.
This is not a government mouth-piece, and I hope it stays that way.

Apart from taking the official statement at face value, what do you want the forum to do?

Are you willing to hold a morcha outside the MoD office to find out the real reason?

In the absence of this, what other avenue is available? We can sit and guess onlee.

Let me take it a step further. The govt is not speaking the truth. Now that I have stated that, I have to prove it no? But what evidence do I have? Am I aware of the processes, procedures, chain of command of a BrahMos launch? I don't. Do you? Assuming you also are not aware, who else wants to reveal this on a public forum? If someone does, I would need a full biography of that poster. So full name and rank, birthdate, place of residence, clear evidence of serving in the Indian Army's Regiment of Artillery (where BrahMos batteries are assigned) and so on.

Because in the absence of such a biography, on what basis am I to assume that poster is speaking the truth?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 13 Mar 2022 05:04

ManuJ wrote:Whoa! Who cares about the Pakis and how did you make that leap of judgement?
I'm concerned about the break-down in the processes, procedures, chain of command, etc. that led to this incident.
A missile like the Brahmos is not fired accidentally that easily.
There are multiple checks and balances, predefined procedures that are heavily tested & verified, and pre-fed targets.
……
……
Taking the government's official statement at mouth value is not how a serious defense forum should work.
This is not a government mouth-piece, and I hope it stays that way.

When someone sweeps their imperious hands at Indian forces and ask for retribution like you did, that raises red flags here and that does cause responses like mine. That is what we have been doing for decades in this forum - paki plinking. If you are not one, well and good, but I don’t know that yet from your last couple of posts.

About your claims of checks and balances plus missile firing SOP, which you are stating authoritatively, as Rakesh says how do we know you know Jack about all that? And even if you claim you do, again as Rakesh asks, what gives you clearance to state all that in an open forum? That you are not merely BSing without even a disclaimer like “this is what I think might have happened” is kind of what this is devolving into.

In these sort of situations, GoI is the final authority that this forum always quotes as record and if that is not good enough for you, please do all that questioning etc you want to do in your personal profile, not in this forum. Check the F16 downing thread, that pakis deny to this day if you have doubts about the iron clad trust this forum has on IAF’s official version.

Mort Walker, you got it right - Indian govt admitted it was accidental after a corroboration period. And targeting individuals without a high level inquiry (which GoI immediately ordered) and before the report release is NOT what “serious forums”’would want to do. Even pakis seem docile over this due to GoI’s right response.

Well-trained missile crew does not come cheap or instantly. A machine glitch should not lead to loss of talent

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 13 Mar 2022 05:26

I agree that there is not much we can do but speculate on what really happened. There are only 2 scenarios here

Accidental
=============
This is the official version,
1. If the missile detonated and destroyed something, fine I don't care
2. If it is not mated with a warhead and did not detonate, I doubt it is intact to gather any real data on the missile after it's impact, given it's supersonic nature (I may be wrong here).
3. Even if they were able to gather critical data, I don't think we can do much about it now.
4. Also I'm not sure how much critical data can they gather and what can they really do with it, unless they know in advance it's launched and its path. It's still a supersonic missile coming at mach 3 speed at them. They did not detect it now. Do you think they can build their defences better now that they have some details?. (This is also a question on how much they can get from it and how bad it is for us)

Deliberate
==========
Well as per our speculation, if it was deliberately launched on some mission of clandestine in nature,
1. As long as it met the required mission parameters, I do not care
2. It did hit but at the wrong area, still I do not care

Bottomline we can do nothing unless we have real information, which we will not get and also do not want to get.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 13 Mar 2022 07:08

From some unverified videos , it seems a wide area flattened, and also the case of loud noise with one's car rear door openingup because of the impact of the missile from far-off distance . Not handiwork of inert missile .

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 13 Mar 2022 07:46

I hope they dip the missiles in extra virgin Olive oil before launching.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 13 Mar 2022 08:08

shaun wrote:Not handiwork of inert missile .

Reading press reports, Inert is interpreted as it was not a nuclear warhead.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 13 Mar 2022 08:11

Source based article in Print by Snehesh Alex Philip... Posting it here... FWIW
https://theprint.in/defence/missile-acc ... ck/870814/

Summarized here--->
https://twitter.com/freakingbeast_/stat ... kRTZw&s=19

1. The trajectory of Missile providing by PAF is wrong & this shows they lack tracking capabilities.

2. India Informed relevant Pakistani Authorities much before the ISPR Press conference.

3. Missile was not fired from Sirsa but from a Secret Satellite Base during inspection.

4. Regarding the failure in trajectory, Print's source said “Certain factors” played role ensuring missile won't hit Pre-fed Targets. Indicating perfect functioning of Missile.

5. Missile has multiple Mechanical & Software mechanism to prevent accidental fire.

6. Missile has multiple geo-locations of targets fed into the system, which need to be selected or new ones added.

7. After feeding/selecting target coordinates, missile need special code to Launch.

8. Missile fired was practice variant, thus no warhead.

9. He also mentioned, Pakistan lack capability to engage Missile.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 13 Mar 2022 08:24

The one things the Pakis did get right is that this was a danger to civil aviation in both India and Pakistan.

basant · Post by **basant** » 13 Mar 2022 08:50

Arun Prakash @arunp2810

Let us note that a fundamental attribute of a sound Command & Control system is: “Never/Always.” A weapon will NEVER be launched accidentally, and ALWAYS when duly authorised. Especially relevant in context of short flight times.

9:01 PM · Mar 11, 2022

'Even if authorised, missile firing makes no sense'

While the defence ministry has explained that the missile fired into Pakistan was due to a 'technical malfunction', former naval chief Admiral Arun Prakash has tweeted that these missiles can never be launched accidentally but only when authorised.What does that indicate?

Dr Bharat Karnad: The Admiral is right. This seems like an unauthorised firing. Further, even if authorised, the firing makes no sense, because there was no active warhead. So, what was the aim?

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 13 Mar 2022 09:22

Hakim's video. there is a BRF lingo joke at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZYZQKbWn94

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Mar 2022 09:48

This is such an extraordinary event, every one has been flat footed apart from GOI/ MOD. Pakis have no clue except they secured the area to remove bodies, what was hit for 36 hours. Indian media and public have no clue. And Pakistani public know the official version is BS and are even more clueless.

Once again after some years truth will come out. Till then everyone will be speculating it's an accident to PAF shootdown of incoming Brahmos to Dawood Ibrahim to Hafiz Sayed being eliminated . After all online words are cheap.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 13 Mar 2022 11:52

Here are the various CPEC routes. Now look at the route from multan to lahore

And look where Mian Channu is - to this abdul's untrained eyes, we seem to have hit something on cpec. A msg to ILON blothels?

And connecting a few dots..

pakis took two days - they needed this time to gather tracing externally - default options sugar folks
now if the tracing is wrong - sugars also lack it at least in this geography
if sugars have some amount of tracing capability, we seem to know when there is a gap
net net we have said - cpec is game
and if we ended up destroying a some factory - bonus 1
and if we ended up secularly making someone meet the maker - bonus 2

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Mar 2022 11:54

Mort Walker wrote: When things like this have happened in US DoD, usually the service chiefs, command officers, and members of congress complain of lack of funding where the military branch needs to be funded better.

Can one expect some extra funding to be allocated to defence procurements ala Germany? High time the budget increased...

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 13 Mar 2022 12:22

Aditya_V wrote:I think the official story there are too holes in it
1) Given the destruction in local Pakistani videos it does not look to have a missing warhead , how a missile stored in a canister be launched without the Warhead? How can it be fueled but without warhead and kept in the launcher

2) Nobody does test drills right at the Border, yes missile have been launched at Targets in Pokran but highly unlikely near the Punjab Border

Remember it was just after 2002 UP elections last phase ended was the Godhra train bogie was burnt. Perhaps the target and timing have some connection to it. Regarding owning up, it will only invite International attention and force Pakis to try some stunt. Something we felt is not required now.

Your assumption that all missile that are in canisters are armed is wrong. Secondly it was not being tested. Missiles were being serviced. Such thing happens. Belgian F16 fired missile while it was being "cleaned" on the tarmac and ended up destroying few other F16.

kit · Post by **kit** » 13 Mar 2022 12:46

Atmavik wrote:Hakim's video. there is a BRF lingo joke at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZYZQKbWn94

the last word on the topic !!

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 13 Mar 2022 14:16

I believe it was a real life demo of Brahmos to convince prospective buyers who asked : "all your claims of missile performance and effectiveness are based on tests in your own country. We want independent validation.". GoI obliged.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 13 Mar 2022 14:26

kit wrote:
Atmavik wrote:Hakim's video. there is a BRF lingo joke at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZYZQKbWn94

the last word on the topic !!

Even Hakeem's video is restricted. Wah rr wah European free press.

S_Madhukar · Post by **S_Madhukar** » 13 Mar 2022 22:06

so are we now doing an Obama on the Bakis? Then we must get a Nobel prize also ji! Obama got Nobel then he unleashed Baki National Bird Ze Predator on them with precision droppings on all and sundry as identified by Cornails and Jernails. Man on this subcontinent parents don't give their kids any s*x-ed and definitely nothing told abt long mijjiles which turn and penetrate what not !!

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 13 Mar 2022 22:27

https://youtu.be/J9I1DWlYVjQ
Air launched bhrmos tested

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 13 Mar 2022 23:04

can we call the 9th march incident as a brahmos test as well? something got tested..
its a case of operation failed but mission accomplished

siddhu · Post by **siddhu** » 13 Mar 2022 23:09

Near by ground assets could have been activated to extract critical components?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Mar 2022 08:54

Missile launch was accidental but the strike was accurate.
Tie it with many things in march like the Karachi furniture dealer demise etc.
Accidental terminology is to give room for TSP as it's FATF time.
They can't admit who got killed by a missile.
It is all good.

* samajhne wale samajh gaye hai, na samjhe na samjhe wo anari hai!!!

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 14 Mar 2022 09:26

So India took out some person or persons and gave Pakistan a fig leaf. Which Pakistan eagerly wore. Very much possible.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Mar 2022 10:12

I have no doubt the the missile launch was a "mistake". As claimed by the MOD.

I also don't have any doubt that some thing was killed by the "mistake".

As long as it was relevant to India. I don't care what it was.

It's amazing what can be done by a government that is looking out for Indian interests.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Mar 2022 11:13

Alpha defence about the SFDR.

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 14 Mar 2022 12:00

sanjaykumar wrote:So India took out some person or persons and gave Pakistan a fig leaf. Which Pakistan eagerly wore. Very much possible.

Why should india use an expensive weapon just to take out a guy? If it was a big guy, we would have heard bigger noises from Pakistan.
I would like to think that this was a warning to indicate that they can strike Pakistan anywhere at will. May be something was brewing in Pakistan and India got a wind of it, and gave Pakistan some food for thought.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 14 Mar 2022 16:39

one wonder where is the pilot who ejected safely from the plane which crashed. Mystery

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Mar 2022 18:10

rsingh wrote:one wonder where is the pilot who ejected safely from the plane which crashed. Mystery

in paki term., ejaculate

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 14 Mar 2022 18:14

yes, where is the doosra banda ? India DGMO to paki DGMO - swalpa adjust maadi, just missile without warhead

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Mar 2022 18:19

Pratyush wrote:I have no doubt the the missile launch was a "mistake". As claimed by the MOD.

I also don't have any doubt that some thing was killed by the "mistake".

As long as it was relevant to India. I don't care what it was.

It's amazing what can be done by a government that is looking out for Indian interests.

indeed if the paki army had to "clean up" for two days, there was definitely something

williams · Post by **williams** » 14 Mar 2022 18:57

Pratyush wrote:I have no doubt the the missile launch was a "mistake". As claimed by the MOD.

I also don't have any doubt that some thing was killed by the "mistake".

As long as it was relevant to India. I don't care what it was.

It's amazing what can be done by a government that is looking out for Indian interests.

Agreed!

There are reasons to believe that some wink-wink is going on. One Pakis are only making a token protest after something that is quite serious. Think about the implication of what would have happened if a missile landed in India from the Pakis or the Chinese by mistake. There would be all kinds of AD systems activated and will become a big thing irrespective of casualties. Imagine the media circus.

Then even if it happened by mistake, I doubt India will ever admit it in public. But they did that too 2 days after the incident. So I think that something of value was targeted. Admitting that it was targeted will embarrass the Pakis. They would have asked for a way out through back channels and GoI obliged.

Finally, the amount of damage displayed in youtube videos is quite extensive. That does not prove dummy warhead and MoD's official statement did not say it was dummy warhead.

Real questions to ponder
Are there going to be more such wink-wink accidents in the future?
Pakis don't have the necessary tracking facility to respond to incoming missiles? And probably the concerned people in India know about it?

SinghS · Post by **SinghS** » 14 Mar 2022 19:11

India government response today morning:
Link: https://www.news18.com/news/india/move- ... 69647.html

“We understand the seriousness of the matter and we appreciate Pakistan’s response on this. Pakistan being properly briefed about the circumstances of this accident and has been informed that in future extra care will be taken,” India responded late on Saturday, top government sources told News18.

“There are many joint probes in the past pending with Pakistan. As a neighbour Pakistan should accept this as a mistake and move forward,” New Delhi posited.

-----This makes it amply clear as what has actually transpired. The interesting part is that google is not showing this and is showing China and Paki sound bytes only.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Mar 2022 21:31

“There are many joint probes in the past pending with Pakistan. As a neighbour Pakistan should accept this as a mistake and move forward,” New Delhi posited.

Seems like we are just toying with them going by the kind of wordings used in official statements

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 14 Mar 2022 23:42

I went around PDF to see what they're discussing...
-
As expected, they want PAF to bomb some targets in India... Some are expecting some 'accidental' response from Pakistani Armed Forces in a few days...
Few are cursing the Govt. for not taking action and want Musharaff to be brought back to power coz. apparently Indians are scared of Musharaff...