Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 15 Mar 2022 00:12

ramana wrote:Missile launch was accidental but the strike was accurate.
Tie it with many things in march like the Karachi furniture dealer demise etc.
Accidental terminology is to give room for TSP as it's FATF time.
They can't admit who got killed by a missile.
It is all good.

* samajhne wale samajh gaye hai, na samjhe na samjhe wo anari hai!!!

Mistake or not, if I were Hafiz Saeed or Maualna Masood Azhar - what would be on my mind now?

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 15 Mar 2022 01:55

Aditya G wrote: Mistake or not, if I were Hafiz Saeed or Maualna Masood Azhar - what would be on my mind now?

Here's to hoping neither of them are in the state of being..jai Brahmaputra!!

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 15 Mar 2022 04:53

suryag wrote:yes, where is the doosra banda ? India DGMO to paki DGMO - swalpa adjust maadi, just missile without warhead

I know people here are wondering how can someone eject from a private plan, you do not need Ejuclation seats all you need is a good dose of Pindi channa and behold. Have you guys forgotten about the Raakit mard from the phamous Bakistan Dhaga, anything can happen in Bakistan

By the way I searched online for Raakit mard and got this page

viewtopic.php?t=6453&start=2160

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 15 Mar 2022 05:35

^^ is that Sheik chilli ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Mar 2022 06:54

LakshmanPST wrote:I went around PDF to see what they're discussing...
-
As expected, they want PAF to bomb some targets in India... Some are expecting some 'accidental' response from Pakistani Armed Forces in a few days...
Few are cursing the Govt. for not taking action and want Musharaff to be brought back to power coz. apparently Indians are scared of Musharaff...

Well this shows that for PAF things went badly enough on 27 Feb 19 they don't want to risk it

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Mar 2022 08:43

asbchakri wrote:
suryag wrote:yes, where is the doosra banda ? India DGMO to paki DGMO - swalpa adjust maadi, just missile without warhead
I know people here are wondering how can someone eject from a private plan, you do not need Ejuclation seats all you need is a good dose of Pindi channa and behold. Have you guys forgotten about the Raakit mard from the phamous Bakistan Dhaga, anything can happen in Bakistan

viewtopic.php?t=6453&start=2160

That is a Harrier so where does Bakistan come into it?
Unless I am missing something.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 15 Mar 2022 13:24

Raksha Mantri's statement to the Indian Parliament

I can assure the House that the missile system is very reliable and safe. Moreover, our safety procedures and protocols are of the highest order and are reviewed from time to time. Our Armed Forces are well-trained and disciplined & are well experienced in handling such systems

Lurkers from across can read the above as "No AK Misphyrr"

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 15 Mar 2022 14:22

No one believes this statement for a minute. But well-drafted.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Mar 2022 14:41

Guys look at this video from Pak Tv from 45 seconds onwards- casualties. If these were ordinary civilians, Paki would be demanding Billions, After 1:48 there is talk of many dying, clearly Pakis covering up means that they cant tell who the victims are. and video ends with Ellake meain Emergency laga hua hai.

and this video, certainly there was a Warhead which exploded and did some damage, why are Pakis hiding it unless they can't reveal the type of people who died

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 15 Mar 2022 15:02

^ That hospital video is from Sibi Blast.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Mar 2022 15:14

Ok maybe but from the looks of thinks there is definite Huge damage and in a populated areas, Hospital part clips on tthe Paki TV might be wrong, but definitely the Warhead has gone off and eyewitness talk of casualties. Why DGISPR is talking about lack of warhead?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 15 Mar 2022 18:36

All bum blasts look the same in Bakistan, so easy to conphuse one for another.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 16 Mar 2022 10:04

ramana wrote:Missile launch was accidental but the strike was accurate.
Tie it with many things in march like the Karachi furniture dealer demise etc.
Accidental terminology is to give room for TSP as it's FATF time.
They can't admit who got killed by a missile.
It is all good.

* samajhne wale samajh gaye hai, na samjhe na samjhe wo anari hai!!!

Aditya_V wrote:Ok maybe but from the looks of thinks there is definite Huge damage and in a populated areas, Hospital part clips on tthe Paki TV might be wrong, but definitely the Warhead has gone off and eyewitness talk of casualties. Why DGISPR is talking about lack of warhead?

The firing was accidental. That is the unfortunate fact and I'm afraid is really the bottom-line.

The GoI statement is factual and reviews to the SOPs etc will no doubt be swiftly completed to obviate such dangerous mishaps that could precipitate into absolute disaster, in the future.

sajo · Post by **sajo** » 16 Mar 2022 10:23

Learned gurus, is it a possibility that when they say "accidental", it meant done deliberately (perhaps in response to a current or future threat perception) without adequate levels of clearance from the chain of command ? Maybe decision to strike at an HVT was taken locally?

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 16 Mar 2022 10:48

sajo wrote:Learned gurus, is it a possibility that when they say "accidental", it meant done deliberately (perhaps in response to a current or future threat perception) without adequate levels of clearance from the chain of command ? Maybe decision to strike at an HVT was taken locally?

Sajo, refer my post above.

That is really the bottom-line, my friend, even though we wish to believe otherwise.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Mar 2022 11:00

sajo wrote: without adequate levels of clearance from the chain of command ? Maybe decision to strike at an HVT was taken locally?,,

Use of force is not authorised by the government during peace time. If some officer has taken upon himself authority to launch the missile. He has by actions launched a mutiny.

There is a reason why civilian authority exists.

sajo · Post by **sajo** » 16 Mar 2022 11:05

Thank you guys, I was just alluding that it is unlikely a system failure, but a decision matrix failure/loophole.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 16 Mar 2022 11:20

sajo wrote:Thank you guys, I was just alluding that it is unlikely a system failure, but a decision matrix failure/loophole.

Hari Nair Sir has already said that everything will be looked at. Unless missiles can spontaneously launch then it is an SOP issue yes?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 16 Mar 2022 11:22

Hari Nair wrote:
sajo wrote:Learned gurus, is it a possibility that when they say "accidental", it meant done deliberately (perhaps in response to a current or future threat perception) without adequate levels of clearance from the chain of command ? Maybe decision to strike at an HVT was taken locally?
Sajo, refer my post above.

That is really the bottom-line, my friend, even though we wish to believe otherwise.

Thanks, Sir for setting the record straight.

Very amusing to read the khayali pulao's here though.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Mar 2022 13:36

sajo wrote:Thank you guys, I was just alluding that it is unlikely a system failure, but a decision matrix failure/loophole.

this gives a whole new meaning to the term "self test".

How ever much you idiot proof any system, there is always a bigger idiot lurking just round the corner.

One paper says that it happened during a Directorate of Air Staff Inspection (DASI) inspection

and finally, in the military, shoe size and IQ seem to be directly corelated, starting from single digits. This old joke is rather painfully coming to be true, more so with each passing day

sorry to say that we seem to have reached the very pits

ships toppling over in dry docks, missiles being fired off during routine inspections and landing in enemy territory, submarines exploding alongside while being armed are but a few examples of the rot that seems to have set in.

Like in all aviation or other accidents, it is a case of the holes in the swiss cheese aligning in risk scenarios simply not envisaged or taken into consideration during the design phase.

Only one CNS has had the moral fibre and the courage of his convictions to accept the responsibility, and to put in his papers and quit.

there was once a time when multiple careers would have instantly evaporated for far less minor infringements and justifiably so.

And, who knows in what condition the brahmos has been recovered by the pakis. The cheeni would be all over it by now

will it give up some of its secrets to the pakis and the cheenis and using the wreckage, can they develop an effective counter to India's once lethal missile.

There is no option but to assume that the wreckage will give up many secrets and a worst case scenario has to be factored in as to the residual combat utility of this system. May be it can be developed and modified using either a new system/sub system upgrade or redesigned all together by completely junking the existing systems

A realistic risk universe has to be developed to estimate the possible strategic and tactical costs of this missile being rendered less effective now than it was in its earlier existence under the military purdah.

Time for some very serious butt kicking, starting at the top and reaching all the way down.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Mar 2022 14:03

Reverse Engineering is overhyped, the condition of ereakage, nothing useful was left. Why haven't Pakis got a 1000 heron copies after 1 was shot down in Pak in 2002?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Mar 2022 14:49

Aditya_V wrote:Reverse Engineering is overhyped, the condition of ereakage, nothing useful was left. Why haven't Pakis got a 1000 heron copies after 1 was shot down in Pak in 2002?

Assuming that the missile was accidently fired off sans warhead, per press reports, there should have been no fire on impact unless the residual fuel, if any, ignited on impact. The reports also say that the missile was airborne until it ran out of fuel.

even so, the debris field would have been somewhat spread out it would be wise to assume that the fire, if any, would not have been able to consume all the debris

No one is talking "reverse engineering"

The israelis didn't reverse engineer the styx missile to counter it. They just developed systems to jam or confuse the guidance and homing subsystems of the styx and rendered it totally useless in battle

This they did by recording and analysing emanated frequencies from the styx and developing counters to render them ineffective. This is one way but not so effective these days.

There will be some antijamming measures built into the brahmos. It is not outside the realm of belief that the pakis and the cheenis may be able to guess/workout some of these features from the items recovered. Since there was no warhead, and hence no explosion, it is best to assume that some components may have survived in a state that could enable recognition. Even in the case of an impact and subsequent fire, some individual components are almost always recognizable.

ICs, partially recovered circuit boards and what not can give an indication as to the rough function of the board per se.

Many IC numbers may still be decipherable or can be physically matched to samples. Many times manufacturer's (COTS or even MIL grade ICs) data sheets will give application and configuration details for a smart engineer to get a rough idea of what the board may have been used for.

Many years ago, an airhostess survived after being trapped in the tail section of the aircraft that broke up at great height and free fell from a height of almost 30-40,000 feet. She was in the rear section when the aircraft broke up and she was the sole survivor.

Every impact doesn't mean the the wreckage turns to unrecognizable powder after it is "pulverized" on impact

Regarding the shot down heron, how do we know what the cheeni have done with it.

Since this an open forum, one will not go into the serious implications of the heron being shot down

If the shoe was on the other foot and we had recovered a paki missile wreckage, DRDO, the services, BEL, HAL, Bharat Dynamics Limited, etc would have been very keen to inspect the wreckage and the debris and a fairly voluminous report would have been the result.

And one can bet his boots that some very educated guesses along with the reasoning based on available component and some circuit board details would be included in this report, and engineers of various sub and super specialities would have a long and interesting discussion, possibly leading to some tangible outcome

Vesna Vulovic, an air stewardess who survived the highest ever fall by a human being after her plane broke up at 33,000ft (10,000m), has died aged 66.

According to investigators, Vulovic was trapped by a food cart in the plane's tail section as it plummeted to earth in freezing temperatures.

State TV in Vulovic's home country of Serbia said she was found dead in her apartment in Belgrade. The cause of death was not immediately known.

Vulovic was working on a Yugoslav Airlines Douglas DC-9 on 26 Jan 1972 when a suspected bomb brought the plane down among mountains in Czechoslovakia.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 16 Mar 2022 16:02

Having spoken some yrs ago to very Sr scientists who know a thing or two about missiles, reverse engineering is extremely, extremely difficult even if we gave Pakis a gift wrapped intact missile. Even after sourcing components from abroad it took us decades to make our own RLGs or actuators that can operate at very high mach numbers.
Pakis, even chinis can keep mining all they want from this missile debris, they will get jack orifice aurum out of it. (there I've used your expression that had me in splits

)

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Mar 2022 16:07

If a circut board is found intact by Pakistan. How will it help them figure out how it interacts with the other compute elements within the missile.

Or even how to spoof one before and after launch.

This is clearly not an element of concern for the MOD.

So why worry so much about what Pakistan will do with the remains of the missile.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Mar 2022 17:44

Pratyush wrote:If a circut board is found intact by Pakistan. How will it help them figure out how it interacts with the other compute elements within the missile.

Or even how to spoof one before and after launch.

This is clearly not an element of concern for the MOD.

So why worry so much about what Pakistan will do with the remains of the missile.

No circuit board will be found intact in the way that you mean.

whether MOD is concerned or not will not be known in the public domain.

They are already very curious about the brahmos in a military way and will not spare any effort to reconstruct with the available and identifiable parts of the wreckage to the extent possible. Once the damaged parts are roughly in place they will be able to do some sort of analysis

reconstruction of the wreckage is standard aviation practice

The rest, one assumes, they will be able to bribe out of the philippines for sure. If they have not already done so from India itself or gotten from the russkis. No need to remind anyone that all sorts of people here have been compromised by the ISI and the cheeni intelligence. Some have been caught and it is safe to assume that many have not been caught yet.

Agrawal, a senior systems engineer in Brahmos Aerospace facility in Nagpur, was arrested on October 8, 2018 in a joint operation by Uttar Pradesh and Maharashtra Anti- Terrorism Squad (ATS).30-Jul-2019

"Agrawal had been asked to download an app from a fake ID as a part of honey trap. As a result, Brahmos files and mechanism were automatically made available to Pakistani agents, which can pose danger to the country's security.

when we have landed in the soup, so it is prudent to assume the worst case situation and take some remedial measures which are best left to the operators and the designers

To simply assume that all the wreckage will be lost completely and totally and some joker said that reverse engineering is very difficult/impossible is talking through his/her hat

The original shenyang migs made by the cheeni were copies of the russki migs that were being sent to vietnam or korea whatever via cheeni territory. Many such migs were stolen by the cheeni and studied carefully by them

They then duplicated the entire aircraft by copying component by component. They did not have the technology to recreate the russian metallurgy so their early shenyang migs had a total life of 125 or so hours.

The pakis/cheeni have whatever system details that horny agarwal gave them, and now they also have the wreckage of an actual brahmos missile. The identifiable components could yield some further details

The brahmos is a very high speed supersonic missile and some amount of aerodynamic details will be undoubtedly be decipherable from the wreckage

So now, what else would they want....

DRDO employee detained for leaking sensitive details about BrahMos missile

A man employed with the Defence Research and Development Organisation was detained today on suspicion of leaking sensitive details about the nuclear-capable BrahMos cruise missile.

The DRDO employee was detained on charges of suspicion and is currently being questioned. Sources said that some suspicious material was recovered from his possession.

October 08, 2018

https://www.indiatoday.in/programme/ind ... 2018-10-08

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Mar 2022 17:52

Cyrano wrote:Having spoken some yrs ago to very Sr scientists who know a thing or two about missiles, reverse engineering is extremely, extremely difficult even if we gave Pakis a gift wrapped intact missile. Even after sourcing components from abroad it took us decades to make our own RLGs or actuators that can operate at very high mach numbers.
Pakis, even chinis can keep mining all they want from this missile debris, they will get jack orifice aurum out of it. (there I've used your expression that had me in splits )

no need to reverse engineer the missile.

they just need to be able to counter it when the time comes.

and they may be able to cull, test, and possibly incorporate some of the aerodynamics into one of their own designs

kit · Post by **kit** » 17 Mar 2022 01:59

woke media woken up

"bloom" berg

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ory-strike

Pakistan held back after realizing something was amiss: people

.. the eja@ting pilot ?

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 17 Mar 2022 02:02

Hari Nair wrote:
ramana wrote:Missile launch was accidental but the strike was accurate.
Tie it with many things in march like the Karachi furniture dealer demise etc.
Accidental terminology is to give room for TSP as it's FATF time.
They can't admit who got killed by a missile.
It is all good.

* samajhne wale samajh gaye hai, na samjhe na samjhe wo anari hai!!!
The firing was accidental. That is the unfortunate fact and I'm afraid is really the bottom-line.

The GoI statement is factual and reviews to the SOPs etc will no doubt be swiftly completed to obviate such dangerous mishaps that could precipitate into absolute disaster, in the future.

Thanks Hari Nair for quashing the irresponsible rumor-mongering and setting the record straight.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 17 Mar 2022 02:14

kit wrote:woke media woken up

"bloom" berg

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ory-strike

Pakistan held back after realizing something was amiss: people .. the eja@ting pilot ?

OMG!!! We came this close to nuclear war in subcontinent and it was averted because Pakistan wisely decided to refrain from retaliation!!*

*Pakis sent terrorists across the border with authorization at highest levels, which killed 175, wounded 500, and somehow that was responsible behavior and wise. Ask them to stuff the missile in their musharraf.

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 17 Mar 2022 06:30

This is just Pakistan milking it for all it's worth, both internationally and for its domestic audience. According to the report, India didn't even use the DGMO hotline to inform Pakistan of the launch; in fact we didn't acknowledge it until Pakistan complained. A complaint is hardly the action of a country that was contemplating a counter strike.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2022 06:36

Hari Nair agree Process and Procedures will be reviewed.
As they should be.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 17 Mar 2022 08:01

Anujan wrote: OMG!!! We came this close to nuclear war in subcontinent and it was averted because Pakistan wisely decided to refrain from retaliation!!*

It was 2 close..

2 days close

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 Mar 2022 11:08

Though this was a malfunction & unintended, I like what it does to the Paki psyche

After Surgical Strike 1, Balakot, cross-border shelling to take out terror launchpads and now this --> what it has done is strengthen our deterrence. Pakis know 100% that we will press the big red button if it comes to that. We have shown sufficient intent + that wee bit of crazy-ness that is important for deterrence.

Under Congress & Manmohan Singh (especially after 26/11), even Indians had doubts about whether we would even respond to a nuclear strike. Lack of such deterrence signalling, if continued, would have invited a 1st strike or dirty bomb or other flavors.

kit · Post by **kit** » 17 Mar 2022 12:34

And the diwali rackit after elections especially so., why should pakis miss out on celebrations

nits · Post by **nits** » 17 Mar 2022 15:40

Twitter buzz with one more missile falling in Pak; not sure its old or a new video

https://twitter.com/i/status/1504385894169645056

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Mar 2022 10:25

@rathorekaran17:
Iskander has been widely used in the Russo Ukraine war. Our equivalent is the Prithvi. It will be a work horse tactical missile.

@daeroplate_v2 replies:
Question is how soon can we trickle fund a significant rocket force of pralay prahaar… none have been ordered or approved after a decade of fitful trials. Unless wholesale org reforms are forced by PMO , we will drag our sorry tails in this mode till 2050… nobody cares
We are like a dysfunctional High school where only direct intervention by the headmaster has any impact.

In these 2 tumultous years since 2020 the process of theater cmd, ibg, rocket force has not moved forward. In same 2 yrs even pak has organized and now inducting tons of new kit

Each missile will need lead time for production line setup, command trucks, training … these 2 yrs could have been used to get those in place atleast. I have given up any hope of proactive moves.. we operate in start stop emergency mode only

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... GxFBA&s=19

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 19 Mar 2022 11:17

ks_sachin wrote: That is a Harrier so where does Bakistan come into it?
Unless I am missing something.

Mard+Musharraf+jet exhaust = raakit mard

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 19 Mar 2022 20:20

Aditya_V wrote:Guys look at this video from Pak Tv from 45 seconds onwards- casualties. If these were ordinary civilians, Paki would be demanding Billions, After 1:48 there is talk of many dying, clearly Pakis covering up means that they cant tell who the victims are. and video ends with Ellake meain Emergency laga hua hai.

and this video, certainly there was a Warhead which exploded and did some damage, why are Pakis hiding it unless they can't reveal the type of people who died

Bismallah, in first video they think that it was Pak fauz fizaya. Even went on reporting that 2 jawan are in Hospital. Question is what were they securing? Pilot are not Zwans and it is not simple that somebody survive. This corroborates with Yawn story about civilian plane crash. But that report was buried under soiled salwars .
In second video somebody is asking for shutting down of tower. I assume this was mobile tower, to stop on ground reporting.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Mar 2022 21:50

Manish, Inventories are usually classified.
I don't like this BRF oldies penchant for open kimono in other forums.
Here we have some control by fellow members and admins.

GD can speculate what he wants.
The fact that PLA did not escalate across LAC should have its own meaning.
And accidental launch shows the preferred missiles.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Mar 2022 21:52

There is a problem with our folks.
All are intellectual Brahmins with ego issues.
What do I mean?
They gloat with half knowledge to show off.
And GOI has no right to have secrets.
Even here.
What you don't know, you don't know should be a guiding principle.