Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

niran · Post by **niran** » 18 Dec 2022 13:40

ramana wrote:
niran wrote:#GladTidings
IA has cleared for 150 ATAGS limited buy, they will use it for user manual and tactic development then, 3 batches of 300 guns will be ordered.
Great news. The limited buy is usually to set up the production line. Same modus operandi for Astra AAM.

Did they identify which make? Kalyani or Tata?
Both have the same barrel.

Kalyani hydraulic version is the selected gun electric system failed miserably Tata shell loading system has niggles Tata could not correct in allotted period. (yes an alien concept these production deadlines

) both Kalyani and Tata will get manufacturing order they will decide the numbers between themselves or MoD 70:30 formula if dispute arises.

almost forgot first batch handover is schedule for August 2023

niran · Post by **niran** » 18 Dec 2022 13:47

Tanaji wrote:
Greatest news for a while. Hopefully this is the final nail in the Athos saga… Is that 300 guns per batch or in total?

saar had made a post earlier during Athos outrage "the one paying says no import means no import" it will be first batch of 150 followed by 3 batches of 300 guns, now don't ask me what about missing 850 from 2000 original requirement? i simply don't know

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 18 Dec 2022 17:10

niran wrote:
ramana wrote:
Great news. The limited buy is usually to set up the production line. Same modus operandi for Astra AAM.

Did they identify which make? Kalyani or Tata?
Both have the same barrel.
Kalyani hydraulic version is the selected gun electric system failed miserably Tata shell loading system has niggles Tata could not correct in allotted period. (yes an alien concept these production deadlines ) both Kalyani and Tata will get manufacturing order they will decide the numbers between themselves or MoD 70:30 formula if dispute arises.

almost forgot first batch handover is schedule for August 2023

So as it stands the gun has niggles and may not meet all its GSQRs?
Kalyani’s cannot walk on water afterall!
Perhaps repeated trials were warranted after all.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Dec 2022 18:15

- The funniest contradiction that one sees on BRF, and now Twitter, is the constant call on one side for domestic development and lamenting about weapons trials.
- Things get more complicated because we get bits and pieces of information w/o full picture or context and assume the worst (Arjun scenario).
- While the reality is that any new weapon will have development trials to validate the concept, technologies and the weapon system as a whole.
- This will be followed by user trials which will factor in the geographical realities of our borders.
- Yes, we should be working on reducing the development time-frame by embedding User with Development team and also removing duplicate set of trials.
- But even then, we'll take time to come-up with new weapons.
- This development timescale will reduce as we go to next iteration or level in the same category. For examples, consider development time-frame for radars or SAMs or ATGMs. Newer programs have benefitted from knowledge gained in previous programs.
- Good thing is that once the weapon system passes trials and is inducted, its a irreversible process and the weapon delivers as per expectations.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 18 Dec 2022 21:55

rohitvats wrote:- The funniest contradiction that one sees on BRF, and now Twitter, is the constant call on one side for domestic development and lamenting about weapons trials.
- Things get more complicated because we get bits and pieces of information w/o full picture or context and assume the worst (Arjun scenario).
- While the reality is that any new weapon will have development trials to validate the concept, technologies and the weapon system as a whole.
- This will be followed by user trials which will factor in the geographical realities of our borders.
- Yes, we should be working on reducing the development time-frame by embedding User with Development team and also removing duplicate set of trials.
- But even then, we'll take time to come-up with new weapons.
- This development timescale will reduce as we go to next iteration or level in the same category. For examples, consider development time-frame for radars or SAMs or ATGMs. Newer programs have benefitted from knowledge gained in previous programs.
- Good thing is that once the weapon system passes trials and is inducted, its a irreversible process and the weapon delivers as per expectations.

100% Agreed rohitvats jee; the problem is lack of transparancy by all involved:
MOD: Biggest culprit every thing is top secret {using secret as an excuse to hide all the mess}
DRDO: Tests completed successfully {first test to 50th test}
Private Companies: Ready for orders/deployment
News Media: Putting out half baked facts and the other half telling the story of their pay masters

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2022 08:27

Rohit, As a wise person said "You can't innovate what you don't make!"

With AtmaNirbhar, India gets to make and then comes innovation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2022 08:29

Vinod, Also MOD, and the services need to channel all communications through their spokespersons.
This "sources" technique is used to spread FUD by suggesting the false and suppressing the truth.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2022 08:38

niran wrote:
ramana wrote:
Great news. The limited buy is usually to set up the production line. Same modus operandi for Astra AAM.

Did they identify which make? Kalyani or Tata?
Both have the same barrel.
...

Kalyani hydraulic version is the selected gun, the electric system failed miserably.

Tata shell loading system has niggles, Tata could not correct it in the allotted period. (yes an alien concept these production deadlines ) both Kalyani and Tata will get manufacturing orders they will decide the numbers between themselves or the MoD 70:30 formula if a dispute arises.

almost forgot first batch handover is scheduled for August 2023

Made some corrections. Hopefully got it right.

Also, recall it was the TASL model that had some issues with shell and barrel interaction.

In another post you mentioned
150 LSP
300, 300, 300 batches.
Total= 1050. 18 guns/regiment.
equal 1050/18= 58 Regiments with spares.

So what happened with the ~50 each produced for development trials?

And can we track the Dhanush and Sharang numbers?

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 19 Dec 2022 09:30

from oct 22's link:
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 49581.html
(posted in this thread a few pages back)here is a starting point for tracking dhanush/sharang and others

k9 vajra
100 inducted
100 more to be inducted

Dhanush
1 regiment (18) inducted
1 more regiment (18) to be inducted by mar 2023

Sharang
3 regiment inducted
raising 4th and will have 15 in total, range 37 km

Pinaka
raising 6 more pinaka with 48km range

ATAGS (TATA? Kalyani?)
150 LSP ordered
900 more to be ordered (is this confirmed?)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2022 10:41

Thanks. Yes as good as confirmed.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 19 Dec 2022 10:52

ramana wrote:Vinod, Also MOD, and the services need to channel all communications through their spokespersons.
This "sources" technique is used to spread FUD by suggesting the false and suppressing the truth.

Sadly this works only when all actors are true-faith in the chain. We know that to not be true. Hence sources.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 20 Dec 2022 19:56

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... wpENslC7Aw

So what’s this now? Weight limit of 15t means ATAGS is explicitly excluded

They are doing their best to make an Arjun of the ATAGS

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2022 19:58

Hasn't the import of 155/52 been banned?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2022 20:01

This RFQ represent an excellent opportunity for Kalyani to develop a 52 calibre version of the light weight howitzer.

That should be under 10 tons.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 20 Dec 2022 20:02

Pratyush wrote:Hasn't the import of 155/52 been banned?

As per the rules they have written, SKD assembled in india is not an import and hence is not banned. I’ve been saying from the start that make in india for defence is a farce, it’s just imports by another name (aka rebranding buy and make (global))

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 20 Dec 2022 20:04

Pratyush wrote:This RFQ represent an excellent opportunity for Kalyani to develop a 52 calibre version of the light weight howitzer.

That should be under 10 tons.

Why should we assume they’ll bother when the capital investment in making such a new product is unlikely to result in orders from India. Kaylani has more arty gun products than they have in service with the IA

How many different ways are they going to cut this pie? 155/52 towed guns is now going to be split 4-5 different ways? Hard not to be incredibly cynical when you see this. Every new deal is another opportunity for kickbacks

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Dec 2022 20:44

A few points:

1) RFI weight of < 15 tons is certainly weird, given they know that ATAGS weighs 18 tons. Its not a mobility issue, since ATAGS has been through grueling mobility trials in the mountains

2) Kalyani Bharat 52 weighs 15 tons. Recent export to Armenia. Does it mean the IA has warmed upto it?

3) Why start with an RFI at this stage? Has the IA not tested Bharat 52?

4) They have said IDDM, but we shall see when we see the shortlist (whether its being circumvented)

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 20 Dec 2022 21:42

Prem Kumar wrote:A few points:

1) RFI weight of < 15 tons is certainly weird, given they know that ATAGS weighs 18 tons. Its not a mobility issue, since ATAGS has been through grueling mobility trials in the mountains

2) Kalyani Bharat 52 weighs 15 tons. Recent export to Armenia. Does it mean the IA has warmed upto it?

3) Why start with an RFI at this stage? Has the IA not tested Bharat 52?

4) They have said IDDM, but we shall see when we see the shortlist (whether its being circumvented)

Why even impose a weight limit (and that too aimed supposedly to exclude the ATAGS only) when as you said mobility is the issue more so than weight. As can be seen by this they are able to take 50t K9s to forward areas using existing infra/trucks (I remember some ‘experts’ had opined that they’d have to buy brand new more powerful trucks to take the ATAGS up to the mountains)

https://twitter.com/kunal_biswas707/sta ... KDfj4aZzpw

It’s not a coincidence that a few days back L&T are said to have made an unsolicited offer to locally assemble the Nexter towed 155/52 gun

This reminds me of the NUH farce where IN capped the AUW at 5t knowing the ALH’s AUW is 5.5-5.75t. No justification was ever given for that either

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2022 21:50

Its for the lightweight gun to augment the M777 which is no longer produced.
So they want a longer barrel and lighter weight.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 20 Dec 2022 21:56

ramana wrote:Its for the lightweight gun to augment the M777 which is no longer produced.
So they want a longer barrel and lighter weight.

No it isn’t. This isn’t a ULH they are asking for, the RFI asks for autoloaders and APUs

It’s for a 155/52 towed gun in the ATAGS class but with a weight limit to keep ATAGS out

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2022 22:03

https://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTemp ... EMHw%3d%3d

The RFI shows that it's not about the ULH requirements.

It's the Indian army telling the PM that we like Athos and we shall have it. F you and your Atmanirbhar Bharat.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2022 22:20

Somehow the pdf is not opening in my browser.
Link to a tweet

https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... XqmNufDd2A

RFI images

page 2

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2022 22:24

Can some one find Part 2?
So far it says, Indian vendors. Not all vendors.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2022 22:26

Dhanush 155mm/52 cal gun spec is under 14 tonnes.

I think we need to stop this sky is falling bokwas.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2022 22:28

Bharat 52 gun

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2022 22:33

I got it. ATAGS has 25-liter chamber and no way can reduce the weight.
So the rest of the 2000-1050 guns will be the 23-liter chamber guns that can be under 15 tonnes.
And there are two to choose from : Dhanush 52 and Bharat 52

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 20 Dec 2022 22:51

ramana wrote:I got it. ATAGS has 25-liter chamber and no way can reduce the weight.
So the rest of the 2000-1050 guns will be the 23-liter chamber guns that can be under 15 tonnes.
And there are two to choose from : Dhanush 52 and Bharat 52

What a colossal waste of time and money ATAGS was then, they drew the design specs up in consultation with the IA but the IA wanted the ATAGS to defy the laws of physics apparently- world class range but lighter than helium.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 21 Dec 2022 00:10

ramana wrote:I got it. ATAGS has 25-liter chamber and no way can reduce the weight.
So the rest of the 2000-1050 guns will be the 23-liter chamber guns that can be under 15 tonnes.
And there are two to choose from : Dhanush 52 and Bharat 52

This is mental gymnastics.

What was the point of atags?

This is just a continuation of pathetic procurement practices and corruption. Everything from small arms to artillery and submarines is a mess.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Dec 2022 01:03

ATAGS has its uses and is not a waste of time.
Only for the critics.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Dec 2022 06:45

Unless the Indian army specifically comes out and states that they have a requirement for 2 different types of 155/52 towed guns. This one and ATAGS with a requirement of over 3000 thousand pieces between them as a part of the future 2 front requirement.

This is the end of ATAGS. Everything else is just lipstick on a pig.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Dec 2022 07:22

Ramana,

I appreciate your optimistic look at the situation.

But this RFI is a way to get the ATHOS.

Due to the following points.

1) Bharat 52 dosent have a shell handling crane. Unless the gun barrel can be mated to the ATAGS carriage and that new piece weighs in at under 15 tons. It's not going to be selected. The gun barrel of ATAGS is not 3 tons heavier than a standard issue 155/52 gun barrel. Or a new gun carriage has to be developed for the gun. In both the case's we are looking at a brand new gun. Given the experience of testing the Dhanush and the ATAGS. It a 5 to 7 years process from now.

2) Dhanush 52, is an untested weapon. It will take 5 to 7 years to be certified by the army. Keeping the experience of testing and certification of both Dhanush and the ATAGS.

Given the immediacy of the tactical situation on the LAC. The Indian army citing the above will prevail upon the Indian government to go for the ATHOS 52.

It's the logical outcome of what the Indian army is doing.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 21 Dec 2022 08:12

There might be another explanation. IA had floated a RFI last year for 2000 Gun Towing Vehicles capable of handling 20 tons

https://theprint.in/defence/army-plans- ... in/683329/

The vehicles, it states, will be used to carry 155mm towed guns weighing upto 20 tonnes, carry gun stores, ammunition and gun crew on metalled roads, tracks and cross country in plains, deserts, semi-deserts, mountains and high altitude areas.

Perhaps this RFI for guns is for gun towing vehicles we already have (RFI mentions "in service GTVs") and these are capable of handling less than 15 tons?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Dec 2022 10:19

Anujan wrote:
Snip.....

Perhaps this RFI for guns is for gun towing vehicles we already have (RFI mentions "in service GTVs") and these are capable of handling less than 15 tons?

Saar, seriously?

This is the most optimistic take on the situation.

On a seperate note.

I have been thinking about the the carriage design of the ATAGS.

1) The Kalyani gun has the carriage derrived from the GCN 45. The plant of which was bought by them.

2) The Tata gun carriage is derrived from the South African G 5.

The common factor to both the guns was Gerald Bull. It could well have been a case of an over designed carriage. Thereby having excessive weight.

Perhaps a different carriage with a single main Axel can be designed reducing the weight of ATAGS. But that also adds a great deal of delay to an already delayed system.

A third point.

A single axle carriage will have most of it weight on a single axle while being towed.

Whereas, the current twin Axel carriage, even though it's 18 tons. It will have an Axel load of only about 9 tons per Axel.

Whereas, 15 ton gun with a single carriage will have nearly 15 ton Axel load.

To conclude.

If transportation of the gun is a huge challenge because of poor infrastructure. In the mountains. Then the twin Axel carriage gun will be a better option due to lower Axel loads. When compared to a single axle gun. Due to it's comparatively higher Axel load.

Keep the above points in mind a question then arises.

Why is the Indian army asking for such a gun?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Dec 2022 11:48

As mentioned above, mobility is not an issue here. ATAGS has done excellently in this regard & K9 has also been deployed in all sorts of terrain. Our infra has also improved considerably leading upto the LAC.

Either ATAGS or Bharat 52 has also bagged an export order

RFI says explicitly IDDM

If an Athos even makes it to the shortlist, its a mockery. Lets wait & see who gets shortlisted

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 21 Dec 2022 11:55

If I remember correctly there was/is some kind of an agreement between Indian/Isreali side on ATHOS - I would not be surprised if it is procured.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Dec 2022 12:22

What agreement?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 21 Dec 2022 12:34

Prem Kumar wrote: RFI says explicitly IDDM

If an Athos even makes it to the shortlist, its a mockery. Lets wait & see who gets shortlisted

Not quite.

https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... 201222.pdf

Item 6j of part I specifies indigenous content (IC) has to be 50% for IDDM and 60% for buy Indian (similar to K9 Vajra).

Appendix A, Item 6t(ii) explicitly asks about IPR owned by foreign OEM.

It is a hole big enough for Athos or any foreign gun.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Dec 2022 12:40

Yes, I have seen these clauses for Make-I projects too & agree that the holes are big enough for imports to sneak in. But have not actually seen real examples of such imports being down-selected under explicitly Make-I/IDDM programs.

That's why I want to wait & see

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 21 Dec 2022 13:44

It's an RFI, not a RFP. Gather info before setting requieements
Years to procurement and twists in the tale quite possible.

Athos had tied up with bharat forge and ofb (jabalpur) for the 1580 gun award that went nowhere. Make in india has major loopholes.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 21 Dec 2022 13:54

Pratyush

On your post regarding axels etc of ATAGS, bear in mind the Arty will deploy guns based on doctrine and suitability. We have multiple options now.

ULH for really tricky spots
The Dhanush in its previous FH77B avatar has proved itself in the mountains
I dont see ATAGS deployed in all mountain areas. Its range is an huge asset in the plains.

JMT am no expert