Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

basant · Post by **basant** » 12 Oct 2022 08:43

Rakesh wrote:Hate to nitpick, but that is not correct Saar.

Good morning Admiral sir. I just meant to explain the relevance of RR to Rolls Royce than to Ramana garu.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Oct 2022 09:13

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Oct 2022 10:20

Twitter reports the AMCA decision is with CCS.

PDR is over, will use GE F414 for early versions, Mk2 will use a different engine 130KN
IAF wants 7 Squadrons.

Aggressive schedule with first flight by 2024.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Oct 2022 10:32

If the reports of Mk2 being planned to be powered by 130 KN powerplant are accurate.

The so called Mk2 is going to be a literal hotrod. If the IAF dosent act the way it has acted with the LCA MK2. Turning it into a different class of fighter.

The interesting thing to note is that the rated wet thrust of the AL 31 is 137 KN for routine operations and 147 KN for emergency use.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Oct 2022 10:38

AMCA close to getting CCS approval: from News18

https://www.news18.com/news/india/ccs-a ... 63845.html

Rollout from hangar is 3.5 years from approval. Assuming approval happens by end of 2022, that means rollout by mid-2026
1st flight within a year of rollout, meaning by mid-2027

IAF has supposedly asked for 7 squadrons to begin with

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 31 Oct 2022 12:41

ramana wrote:Twitter reports the AMCA decision is with CCS.

PDR is over, will use GE F414 for early versions, Mk2 will use a different engine 130KN
IAF wants 7 Squadrons.

Aggressive schedule with first flight by 2024.

First flight can't be in 2024. Dr Ghosh mentioned that the rollout itself will happen 3 years after CCS sanction. Assuming CCS sanction comes in first quarter of 2023, that means a roll-out in 2026 and first flight in 2027.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Oct 2022 16:43

Kartik: plz see above. I have posted the News18 report, which says the same thing. InshaGanesha, 1st rollout mid-2026 and 1st flight mid-2027

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 01 Nov 2022 09:44

Dear Sirs, is it true that the AMCA will be coming without an internal weapons bay?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Nov 2022 10:05

It has an internal weapons bay of 1.5 tons carriage.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 01 Nov 2022 11:09

Pratyush wrote:It has an internal weapons bay of 1.5 tons carriage.

Gloria Maurya! Thank you Garu!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Nov 2022 21:27

Twitter thread on internal weapons bay mechanism on the AMCA and Ghatak. Click on the link below...

https://twitter.com/DefenceReach/status ... 7xjBTFnOfQ

S_Madhukar · Post by **S_Madhukar** » 07 Nov 2022 00:10

Thanks Ganesha for small mercies !

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Nov 2022 00:09

India’s fifth-generation combat aircraft programme has to succeed if it wants be part of the big league
https://www.firstpost.com/opinion-news- ... 06121.html
09 Nov 2022

A ‘whole of nation’ vision and approach will be required. Spelling out clear end-states, timelines and regular path-line reviews would be important. The time to act is now, lest it is too late.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Nov 2022 06:17

And commitment by the user and not changing requirements along the way at the whim of the IAF chief.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 18 Nov 2022 17:28

India initiates fifth-generation AMCA fighter project

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... er-project

Jane reporting that the construction of a box to test the RCS and Bird hit capabilities of AMCA has begun. Also the process for CCS approval for design and development of AMCA has begun

basant · Post by **basant** » 10 Feb 2023 01:30

Given the claim that AMCA will fly in 2024, I have been wondering if the jigs are in place for the same. Any news on the issue in public?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Feb 2023 06:44

basant wrote:Given the claim that AMCA will fly in 2024, I have been wondering if the jigs are in place for the same. Any news on the issue in public?

That is physically impossible at this point. The chief either misspoke or the journalist misunderstood what he was saying.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Feb 2023 07:08

AMCA will require production of Bulkheads, something new for HAL

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 10 Feb 2023 07:24

Aditya_V - How so? I am a newbie in AMCA world but what is special in bulkheads for airborne platforms?

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 10 Feb 2023 07:57

from the same link:

While talking about HAL’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, the HAL chief stated,”We are also a design partner in building prototypes in this project. In another five to six years, the product should be available.”

is the prototype available in 5-6 years (most plausible explanation)
whoever is speaking needs to really make it clear.

basant · Post by **basant** » 10 Feb 2023 08:26

nachiket wrote:
basant wrote:Given the claim that AMCA will fly in 2024, I have been wondering if the jigs are in place for the same. Any news on the issue in public?
That is physically impossible at this point. The chief either misspoke or the journalist misunderstood what he was saying.

Yes, I thought so as well. But then I found it to be consistent claim based on news from July 2022.

It is expected that according to the plan, the first prototype rollout of AMCA is expected by 2023 and the first flight by 2024. However, HAL is looking to start production between 2026-28 and full-fledged production will commence by 2029.

Prima facie, this appears to be 'tareekh pe tareekh' policy.

basant · Post by **basant** » 10 Feb 2023 10:06

bharathp wrote:from the same link:

While talking about HAL’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, the HAL chief stated,”We are also a design partner in building prototypes in this project. In another five to six years, the product should be available.”
is the prototype available in 5-6 years (most plausible explanation)
whoever is speaking needs to really make it clear.

What perplexed me here is the possible dichotomy of ADA vs HAL in production. Like TDs verses series production types. I am pretty sure 2024 is out of question, but the statements regarding 2024 come from HAL itself.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Feb 2023 11:47

ks_sachin wrote:Aditya_V - How so? I am a newbie in AMCA world but what is special in bulkheads for airborne platforms?

Being an Armchair warrior from what I can understand on the net, in LCA Tejas different parts of the Fuselage and fitted together on the Jigs, whereas for AMCA Bulkhead production which began on 14 Jul 2022, like for other 4.5 Gen, 5 Gen aircraft, almost all of fuselage will be prepared in Hydraulic presses and specialized tooling to make it make it 1 single unit onto which wings, engines, cockpit, radar, nosecone will be fitted.

Bulkheads lead to lesser tolerances for better radar absorbent skin and standardised wiring etc.

basant · Post by **basant** » 10 Feb 2023 12:13

Thanks Aditya_V. I found the following article by ADA interesting and 6.2 talks about jig-less manufacturing.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Feb 2023 14:27

Per ADA, AMCA roll out will be 3-3.5 years from the date of sanction. No sanction has been accorded yet. All dates are hence fluid until CCS sanction is granted. No point talking dates.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2023 21:50

basant · Post by **basant** » 13 Feb 2023 10:39

basant wrote:Thanks Aditya_V. I found the following article by ADA interesting and 6.2 talks about jig-less manufacturing.

The relevant part:

Jig-less assembly is aimed at reducing or eliminating the need for product specific jigs during assembly by developing new assembly concepts, models, tools and procedures.

In the new concept of jig-less aircraft assembly, the end locators are replaced by transferring the holes directly on to the part. These holes are made by high precision machines. In this approach, all the parts will have atleast two holes so that the part can be assembled with the adjacent part. These holes are termed as ‘key holes’. In this method, the tooling elements (end locators) are eliminated and only the jig is used as the main assembly structure (as shown in Figure-12). This approach reduces the tool manufacturing time, reduces the product dependent fixture and also increases the accuracy of the assembled product. This approach results in reduction in number of tools and joints (rivets) and subsequently weight also.

I have to obviously spend some quality time on this topic but some confusions remain, especially in the titles! For instance, REQUEST FOR INFORMATION (RFI) FOR DESIGN, MANUFACTURE, ASSEMBLY, AND CERTIFICATION OF CENTRE FUSELAGE ASSEMBLY JIG BY ADOPTING THE METHODOLOGY OF JIG-LESS CONCEPT FOR FIXED WING FIGHTER AIRCRAFT. It is of relevance to mention the components listed here in page 3:

Bulkheads
Trouser duct
Circular duct
Side skin structure
Top skin structure
Fuel Bay side walls
Longerons
Shear walls
Doors & hatches
Fuel tanks
Main Undercarriage
Spine structure
Wing pick up points
Landing gear doors
Gun bay structure
Lifting points
Other systems installation inter changeability requirement
Symmetry points

basant · Post by **basant** » 14 Feb 2023 13:09

DRDO chairman Dr Samir V Kamat said that AMCA's first flight will be in 7 years but the induction may take 10 years. I guess he meant 10 years more (ie 17 years).

AkshaySG · Post by **AkshaySG** » 14 Feb 2023 18:47

I took it to mean 7 for first flight and then 3 more (a total 10 for induction).... Although I guess it depends on if he means starting of induction or finishing the induction of all 126

The first flight estimates are all over the place though.. Have seen every year from 2024 to 2030 mentioned.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 14 Feb 2023 19:01

AMCA 1 with F414 engines he said would be 'ready for induction' 3 years past the first fly ie 2033. He refused to give any time line for AMCA 2 unless there is confirmed time line for 'domestic engine' roll out.

basant · Post by **basant** » 14 Feb 2023 19:16

AkshaySG, he did mean 10 (=7+3) years for induction. But it is straight forward to see that it is hardly possible and it's just a play for time and relevance of the project. By that time frame China might be flying 6th gen (however inferior to its US counterpart).

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 15 Feb 2023 16:50

Source: DDR Tweet

Can any guru identify what kind of actuator this might be? Is it a hydraulic actuator or an electro-hydrostatic actuator? The difference would be for the latter the elimination of the hydraulic piping replaced by power wires. AFAIK DRDO is also working on a electro mechanical actuators.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 15 Feb 2023 18:05

^^Probably hydraulic actuator...the conduit visible near the piston seems like a pipe used in hydraulic lines.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 16 Feb 2023 13:37

Republic tv's Update on Amca from the project director

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Feb 2023 20:19

Congratulations all around!

Systems Level Critical Design Review has been completed for the AMCA and the team will now progress to Platform level CDR in the next 2-3 months!

Aero India 2023 - AMCA finishes systems level CDR

The critical design review (CDR) of all systems for India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) has been completed, a senior project official said.

Speaking to Janes at the Aero India 2023 show being held in Bangalore from 13 to 17 February, the project official said that the aircraft's 16 primary systems have completed the CDR. “This will allow us to complete the platform-level critical design review of the AMCA in one to two months,” the project official with India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) said.

Sixteen aircraft systems were assessed in the systems-level CDR, said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. These include hydraulics, cockpit avionics, Integrated Vehicle Health Management (IVHM), electricals, the weapons systems, and the internal weapons bay.

When Janes last spoke to ADA in November 2022 about the project, some of the systems were still in the process of development.

...

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Feb 2023 21:32

Kartik: When Janes last spoke to ADA in November 2022 about the project, some of the systems were still in the process of development - by this, do they mean that the design of some systems were still work in progress in Nov 2022?

Because we are in the design stage, I am assuming that the fabrication is yet to start. Or is the process these days to develop working proofs-of-concepts even while the design is ongoing?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Feb 2023 21:46

Prem Kumar wrote:Kartik: When Janes last spoke to ADA in November 2022 about the project, some of the systems were still in the process of development - by this, do they mean that the design of some systems were still work in progress in Nov 2022?

Because we are in the design stage, I am assuming that the fabrication is yet to start. Or is the process these days to develop working proofs-of-concepts even while the design is ongoing?

Possibly.

Fabrication won't start till Platform level CDR is completed and CCS approval for funds doesn't come through.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Feb 2023 21:51

Kartik wrote:Congratulations all around!

Systems Level Critical Design Review has been completed for the AMCA and the team will now progress to Platform level CDR in the next 2-3 months!

Indeed. Thank you for posting this. I have updated page 1 of this thread, with the above info.

I have moved some posts you made in the AMCA thread (AH-64 Apache, TASL, etc) to the relevant threads.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 20 Feb 2023 08:28

Interview with Dr Dheodare about AMCA

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Feb 2023 07:19

S_Madhukar wrote:Thanks Ganesha for small mercies !

Internal weapons bay is the whole point of stealth aircraft.