Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 28 Feb 2023 13:40

We have so many key components that need volumes to make in india. Take LDP, Radar, IRST, EW, avionics, RAM paint, RAS, composites, heat exchangers, newer production tech like jigless mfg, advanced 3d printing techniques, Forging(!) and so on and on and on. All these have Indian programs with private sector companies coming forward to manufacture. You need volumes to bring down cost not just for Mk2 but for AMCA and TEDBF too. How does drip-fed production sanction get anything done in india? HAL guys are on record saying initial production quantities were not enough to indigenise many components. Have we learnt nothing from Arjun?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Feb 2023 14:20

Prasad wrote:The Air Chief said - https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 209_1.html
"Indian Air Force has already given commitment for the induction of six squadrons of Light Combat Aircraft Mark 2 fighter jets. We will decide on additional numbers once the production of these aircraft starts," Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari told ANI.
There is zero reason to justify or support this statement. And he has said the same thing about AMCA too. Neither of these programs have got funding even today. Mk2 disbursal hasn't happened yet. You cannot behave like you're buying murukku in the store. That is not how these things work. If as Air Chief he does not know how production lines and supply chains work or how % indigenisation is dependent on order quantity, all this movement geevement will stay absolutely static.

Question to you Prasad-- is the disbursement of funds for the Tejas Mk2 being done by the IAF or by MoD? If it is the MoD which is responsible for not having disbursed funds, then the blame lies directly on the MoD and ultimately on the Defence Minister not on the IAF.

To me it seems that there is a lot of lip service being made by the current Def Min without making sure that it is met with appropriate action on the ground.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 28 Feb 2023 22:11

We never had great expectations from RM.
He is definitely not someone like Parrikar and Ashwin V. who showed proactive participation in decision making and will to find solutions.

But still good part is that we are on upward path and he deserves some praise for it.

https://www.ddpmod.gov.in/whos-who
There must be better selection criteria set for IAS officers joining MoD in terms of relevance of their skills in MoD and compulsory specialized training will go a long way.

Rather than trying to find RM replacement, it is better to find more able leaders like Suresh Prabhu and VK Singh who could help RM to execute the vision of "Atmanirbhar Bharat" and clear the clutter/jargon from MoD babus.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Mar 2023 21:56

Air HQ will hum and haw over Tejas Mk2. Will eventually order the planned six squadrons and then claim no additional aircraft are needed.

They adopted a similar strategy over the Tejas Mk1A. Ordered 83 first and then got the bright idea to order 50+ more. But prior to that, entertaining anything more than 83 Mk1As was considered ill-advised, as the Mk1A was considered a band-aid solution between the Mk1 (the three legged cheetah) and the more capable Mk2. So they will order six Mk2 squadrons and then wait for the AMCA to arrive. When that program is delayed (and it will be), then the light bulb will turn on. What would have been cheaper if ordered up front, Air HQ will spend more.

What will be more expensive - for the country - in the long run, when ordered in a piece meal manner? 133 Mk1As or 83 Mk1As?

But 114 MRFA has stayed consistent. That number never changes

All the OEMs in the MRFA contest require a minimum order of 100 aircraft to transfer a production line. And all the stakeholders in India are firmly behind that snake oil idea, because they don't have another choice. They have to play by the rules set by the OEM. But with local maal, all sorts of shenanigans can be pulled.

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 01 Mar 2023 22:53

hemant_sai wrote:We never had great expectations from RM.
He is definitely not someone like Parrikar and Ashwin V. who showed proactive participation in decision-making and will to find solutions.

We consistently underestimate Rajnath Singh. He has been a great all-around RM. He has smoothly introduced much-needed deep and wide-ranging changes to the structure of the forces, is great at personnel management, and is well aware of the requirement for building the defense industrial base.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Mar 2023 01:26

Rakesh wrote:Air HQ will hum and haw over Tejas Mk2. Will eventually order the planned six squadrons and then claim no additional aircraft are needed.

They adopted a similar strategy over the Tejas Mk1A. Ordered 83 first and then got the bright idea to order 50+ more. But prior to that, entertaining anything more than 83 Mk1As was considered ill-advised, as the Mk1A was considered a band-aid solution between the Mk1 (the three legged cheetah) and the more capable Mk2. So they will order six Mk2 squadrons and then wait for the AMCA to arrive. When that program is delayed (and it will be), then the light bulb will turn on. What would have been cheaper if ordered up front, Air HQ will spend more.

What will be more expensive - for the country - in the long run, when ordered in a piece meal manner? 133 Mk1As or 83 Mk1As?

But 114 MRFA has stayed consistent. That number never changes All the OEMs in the MRFA contest require a minimum order of 100 aircraft to transfer a production line. And all the stakeholders in India are firmly behind that snake oil idea, because they don't have another choice. They have to play by the rules set by the OEM. But with local maal, all sorts of shenanigans can be pulled.

Don't go by the nonsense articles in media.

IAF is fully behind the Mk2 and will get its order.
It will be at least 200 as Nirmala Sitaraman said.

The 114 MRFA is a number to keep in mind.
Mk2 is already better than M2k the old MRCA candidate.

After the Russo-Ukraine war there is no capacity to get imports. All countries will be building inventory.
So to hold out for imports is denying the service to narrow-minded interests.

Added later:
The 123 Tejas Mk1+Mk1A is to replace the 6 squadrons of Mig-21.
After reviewing the force structure and aging the 50 additional are being required.
The good thing is they reviewed the force structure.
Previously they would realize after the mfg line is shut down they want more.
Eg M2K after Kargil.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Mar 2023 01:32

KaranM, Can we please track the black boxes for Mk2 in the Radar thread?
For starters, folks can post the poster boards from Aero India 23.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Mar 2023 03:00

Boss comparison of MP with any past Def.minister is unfair, MP used to run an engineering manufacturing unit (and i believe his son does it today) and was very well versed with design, procurement and manufacture in heavy engineering area. RNS has probably done very well on an absolute terms it is just that the clutter of rules that people need to get through and the same clutter is used by some people with agenda in MoD and Forces to slow down acquisition. BEL, HAL and OFB havent acquitted themselves very well although they have improved tremendously. Addition of Private sector has greatly helped. Starting 2014 the procurement and MoD working has experienced a sea change. The only thing that i still have some bitterness is the Arjun thingie

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Mar 2023 03:12

Saar do you really need engineering and industry experience to understand that Atmanirbharta will remain just a dream unless private entrants into defence manufacturing and R&D are given large orders to help make their business viable?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Mar 2023 07:22

N sir, given the difficulties and given that the system is making RNS' life difficult i believe Modi/RNS ji rightfully put out import embargo list. This basically forces the Forces and MoD machinery to self regulate and somehow move forward because it is very painful to get an approval for even one exception. I presume even if you get an exception MoD might ask when the indigenous alternative would be available. I believe it can only get better here on, just pray that Modi ji gets one more term to give enough irreversible momentum to this sector/effort. Once private sector gets enough momentum even if a non bhajpa govt comes the private sector will spend enough on T&E to keep the contracts flowing. I know members are frustrated but Modi ji staying on for one more term will do dilkhush to all members.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 02 Mar 2023 07:24

^^ hope that is true, until then I am watching the railways and roads threads. Some amazing work is happening in those two sectors

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Mar 2023 19:51

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 00897?s=20 ---> Note the common systems and modules. LCA AF Mk2 is critical to both de-risk the AMCA and also make it's key items affordable with a larger production run.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Mar 2023 14:26

Tejas Mk2 IRST currently being tested by HAL

Update- India to integrate indigenous IRST into fighter aircraft

India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is testing an indigenous infrared search and track (IRST) system that has been developed for the Indian Air Force (IAF) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mk2.

HAL told Janes at the Aero India 2023 show in Bangalore, held from 13 to 17 February, that the Tejas Mk2 variant is expected to feature an internally mounted IRST sensor alongside a missile approach warning system (MAWS), and an improved cockpit.

Kaushik Sorabh, HAL LCA Mk2 project manager, said the design of the IRST is similar to the Passive Infrared Airborne Track Equipment (PIRATE) IRST system, which was built primarily for the Eurofighter Typhoon platform and developed by Eurofirst, a consortium led by Leonardo.

Sorabh added that, like the PIRATE, HAL's new passive-ranging IRST is a long-range dual-band system that is capable of tracking multiple targets with a large field-of-view (FoV). The IRST is equipped to handle air-to-air and air-to-ground target tracking.

...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2023 19:12

https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/164 ... 28320?s=20 ---> Air Intake Test Certification in France, before Tejas Mk2 prototype is rolled out next year. DRDO hopes to bag the certification in May-June this year year as the air intakes of Mark II is similar to Mark I. Lack of testing & certification facilities in India leads to delays in design & development of weapons.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Apr 2023 22:05

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/164 ... 28320?s=20 ---> Air Intake Test Certification in France, before Tejas Mk2 prototype is rolled out next year. DRDO hopes to bag the certification in May-June this year year as the air intakes of Mark II is similar to Mark I. Lack of testing & certification facilities in India leads to delays in design & development of weapons.

Anyone dreaming that MK2 will not have to qualify everything again because of MK1 should forget about it. Chandigarh lobby will not let it happen.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 08 Apr 2023 00:30

This could be due to the fact that they are getting a larger new engine, which requires different flow characteristics over the current design.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 09 Apr 2023 09:21

JTull wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/164 ... 28320?s=20 ---> Air Intake Test Certification in France, before Tejas Mk2 prototype is rolled out next year. DRDO hopes to bag the certification in May-June this year year as the air intakes of Mark II is similar to Mark I. Lack of testing & certification facilities in India leads to delays in design & development of weapons.
Anyone dreaming that MK2 will not have to qualify everything again because of MK1 should forget about it. Chandigarh lobby will not let it happen.

Certifications should not lead to prototype delay if project team is sure of design

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 09 Apr 2023 09:42

The IAF and ADA is damned if it does and damned if it does not!!!

Tomorrow if there is a crash our own BRF will villify all the supposed short cuts taken!!!

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 09 Apr 2023 21:54

PMO urges HAL, DRDO to speed up indigenous fighter aircraft program

https://www.firstpost.com/india/pmo-urg ... 30802.html

The Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) recently had a meeting with the head of DRDO, ADA, and HAL and came hard on the shifting schedule in the Indigenous Fighter jets programme specifically Tejas MkII (17.5 tonnes) and AMCA (24.5 tonnes) programme.

williams · Post by **williams** » 09 Apr 2023 22:59

Interestingly there is no word about speeding up stop-gap MMRCA.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Apr 2023 09:00

JTull wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/164 ... 28320?s=20 ---> Air Intake Test Certification in France, before Tejas Mk2 prototype is rolled out next year. DRDO hopes to bag the certification in May-June this year year as the air intakes of Mark II is similar to Mark I. Lack of testing & certification facilities in India leads to delays in design & development of weapons.
Anyone dreaming that MK2 will not have to qualify everything again because of MK1 should forget about it. Chandigarh lobby will not let it happen.

"certification" is a regulatory obligation. Being a compliance issue, do not know how a lobby can influence such a process. Some gov body has written the rules of that game.

Testing of components on the other hand (which is perhaps what you are thinking about)(and a part of the "certification) if already satisfied for the Mk1 can be rolled over to the Mk2. No need to repeat the test as long as certain parameters are the same across both platforms.

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 10 Apr 2023 14:29

NRao wrote:
JTull wrote: Anyone dreaming that MK2 will not have to qualify everything again because of MK1 should forget about it. Chandigarh lobby will not let it happen.
"certification" is a regulatory obligation. Being a compliance issue, do not know how a lobby can influence such a process. Some gov body has written the rules of that game.

Testing of components on the other hand (which is perhaps what you are thinking about)(and a part of the "certification) if already satisfied for the Mk1 can be rolled over to the Mk2. No need to repeat the test as long as certain parameters are the same across both platforms.

Did Tejas mark 1 [ not 1a] have to go through any foreign certification ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Apr 2023 05:23

drnayar wrote:
NRao wrote:
"certification" is a regulatory obligation. Being a compliance issue, do not know how a lobby can influence such a process. Some gov body has written the rules of that game.

Testing of components on the other hand (which is perhaps what you are thinking about)(and a part of the "certification) if already satisfied for the Mk1 can be rolled over to the Mk2. No need to repeat the test as long as certain parameters are the same across both platforms.
Did Tejas mark 1 [ not 1a] have to go through any foreign certification ?

I believe it was Calspan in the US, although I do not know for what.

BTW, "certification" is Indian, and I think it is Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) that is the authority. The trip abroad is because certain facilities required for certification are not present in India.

And, certification is essentially documenting every detail from the start to the finish. The vendor tells the authority what/how they are going to do, and the authority approves and makes sure that the vendor did what they said they would do. If something goes wrong, then they revisit the process, rewrite the doc, and the cycle starts all over again.

An excellent example of why certifications are a must: When NASA Lost a Spacecraft Due to a Metric Math Mistake

In September of 1999, after almost 10 months of travel to Mars, the Mars Climate Orbiter burned and broke into pieces.

..........

The navigation team at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) used the metric system of millimeters and meters in its calculations, while Lockheed Martin Astronautics in Denver, Colorado, which designed and built the spacecraft, provided crucial acceleration data in the English system of inches, feet, and pounds. JPL engineers did not take into consideration that the units had been converted, i.e., the acceleration readings measured in English units of pound-seconds^2 for a metric measure of force called newton-seconds^2. ...............

prashantsharma · Post by **prashantsharma** » 12 Apr 2023 18:58

Is their any official press release by HAL or ADA that uses the term certification?
The word certification seems to have been used by a news outlet and most of them don't know their arse from their elbow.
This is just a study / analysis to see how the design of the new air intake performs wrt airflow, aerodynamics, engine requirements, etc. No one is going to be issuing a certificate at the end of this.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Apr 2023 19:17

prashantsharma wrote:Is their any official press release by HAL or ADA that uses the term certification?
The word certification seems to have been used by a news outlet and most of them don't know their arse from their elbow.
This is just a study / analysis to see how the design of the new air intake performs wrt airflow, aerodynamics, engine requirements, etc. No one is going to be issuing a certificate at the end of this.

Indeed. Tweet was pulled from this news report. I have yet to see any official press release by HAL or ADA stating the same.

DRDO approaches CCS for AMCA project approval
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 4-amp.html
06 April 2023

The LCA Tejas Mark II with GE-414 engine is expected to roll out next year after completion of air intake test certification in France in May-June this year. Since the air intake of Mark II is similar to Mark I, the DRDO is confident about bagging the certification and rolling out the first prototype by next year.

wig · Post by **wig** » 04 May 2023 20:39

Why India's indigenous fighter jet programme has hit turbulence
https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/topstor ... f8df&ei=12
04 May 2023

extracts

Both the LCA Mk2 and AMCA are planned to be powered by the General Electric F414 engine. It's an American afterburning turbofan engine in the 22,000-pound (98 kN) thrust class and is produced by GE Aviation.

Despite multiple rounds of discussions with US authorities, including during National Security Advisor Ajit Doval's visit to Washington in February, regarding licensed production of GE F414 engines in India, the matter is stuck with the Biden government. GE is apparently willing to set up an engine manufacturing plant in India in collaboration with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) or other private players, but clearance from the US government is awaited.
it is estimated that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would require nothing less than 170 Tejas Mk2 aircraft-equivalent to six squadrons. In addition, the IAF is keen to induct seven squadrons of the AMCA. Given the potentially massive business involved with GE, the Indian government is insisting on transfer of manufacturing technology and production of the engines in the country. "India is only asking for knowhow of the manufacturing, not knowhow of the design. Even then, the US is not agreeing," said a defence source. "The US probably wants a clear-cut roadmap of India's plan for producing the aircraft. The US believes it's only indicators so far and no confirmation on the number of aircraft to be manufactured."

The absence of a roadmap for jet engines has impacted India's fighter jet programme. The AMCA will put India in a select group of countries with super-cruise and stealth aircraft capabilities-the others being the US, Russia and China. However, a nod is awaited from the government for additional funds to manufacture prototypes. To keep the programme running smoothly, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) of the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation), which is working on the AMCA for the past two decades, has even opened doors for private players to join them in the development of the jet.

this appears to be a replay of the HF24 Marut vs Jaguar DPSA

On the hullabaloo over the F-35's entry into Indian skies, a defence official said: "Our decision-makers are falling prey to international game and this is delaying India's fighter jet programme. Vested international arms lobbies do not want India to attain this niche technology."

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 May 2023 22:23

^^^ Thank you wig. The chickens have come home to roost. Any delay in the above proposal, will only boost the MRFA's chances.

1) The article states that "...the US wants a clear-cut roadmap for producing the aircraft." Therefore, quid pro quo for a US-built MRFA cannot be ruled out. The question is whether the IAF will bite*. This will also affect exports to other countries, as whichever country the US feels is inimical to their geopolitical interests, they will deny the sale of the turbofan. So kiss goodbye to that as well.

2) If the IAF does not take the bait and insists on a non US-built fighter aircraft, then Rafale will come. The Gripen E will automatically be eliminated, due to the GE F414 turbofan that powers her. The IAF will not touch Russian aircraft. The only aircraft left in the contest will be the Typhoon. MRFA could end up the MMRCA way.

3) The only option then left for the Mk2 and AMCA is to acquire the F414 turbofan directly from the US. So no license manufacturing. Whether that will pan out - after the US refusal for manufacturing - remains to be seen. Our world renowned decision making (i.e. time) will paralyze both the Mk2 and AMCA programs.

4) This refusal will also likely sink the order for 50 additional Tejas Mk1As (powered by the F404 turbofan). This will only play into the hands of the argument (@ Air HQ, in the GOI and in the bureaucracy) that Amreeka is unreliable. Well played GOTUS!

But it will be a major win for the OEMs (i.e. Dassault, Airbus, Boeing and LM) in the 114 MRFA contest.

*From the IAF's perspective ---> do they want a majority portion of their future fleet (MRFA + Tejas + AMCA) being powered by a US-built turbofan?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 May 2023 22:32

The only fallback (i.e. ready made, off the shelf) turbofan option is the EJ200, which lost out to the F414 turbofan for the Tejas Mk2. But installing another turbofan on the Tejas, is easier said than done. It will delay the Mk2 program.

However if chosen, Rolls Royce will get a new lease of life. Once again, India will revive another phoren aviation company. Rolls Royce is also in competition with Safran and GE for the 110kN AMCA turbofan program.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 May 2023 23:37

Not related to fighter aircraft or low bypass turbofans, but a current issue ---> https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 72896?s=20

Better info on this issue in this video...

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 May 2023 07:24

Rakesh wrote:The only fallback (i.e. ready made, off the shelf) turbofan option is the EJ200, which lost out to the F414 turbofan for the Tejas Mk2. But installing another turbofan on the Tejas, is easier said than done. It will delay the Mk2 program.

However if chosen, Rolls Royce will get a new lease of life. Once again, India will revive another phoren aviation company. Rolls Royce is also in competition with Safran and GE for the 110kN AMCA turbofan program.

I do blame the decision-makers who made the choice to go with the 414 over the eurojet. If This was a move to scupper the Tejas, they couldn't have done any better!

I think ultimately it was a decision that favored every stakeholder but the nation itself. The developers g got to play with latest US tech, which they have always shamelessly hankered after.

The IAF flyboys gave it the go ahead because cynically knew that they always could use the notorious non reliability of the US as a way to cast shade in the local bird and push for their favorite import!

Navy guys have been unabashed admirers of US toys and also pretended to go along with the nlca when they very well knew it couldn't be used for stobar ops.

I know this sounds conspiratorial and cynical. And I hope I'm wrong but damned if this isn't playing out the way I suspected it would. Caesar had been stabbed and everyone has blood on their hands but no one entity can be held responsible! Hack thoo!

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 05 May 2023 13:02

Tejas_Mk2_developments wrote: https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 00897?s=20 ---> Note the common systems and modules. LCA AF Mk2 is critical to both de-risk the AMCA and also make it's key items affordable with a larger production run.

Tejas Mk2 IRST currently being tested by HAL

Air Intake Test Certification in France, before Tejas Mk2 prototype is rolled out next year.

The Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) recently had a meeting with the head of DRDO, ADA, and HAL and came hard on the shifting schedule in the Indigenous Fighter jets programme specifically Tejas MkII (17.5 tonnes) and AMCA (24.5 tonnes) programme.

The chief of ADA Dr Girish Deodhare has repeatedly quoted that Mk2 was needed to mature technologies that would go into making AMCA affordable. I don't doubt the validity of the claims. But with Mk2 deadline being pushed further behind and mk1a itself running at catch up mode. AMCA program itself seems to be lacking resources and manpower to move forward.

AMCA however is far more important capability wise for the air force. We already have a singe engine fighter in Tejas mk1/1a. So AMCA is vital to build the knowledge base for a FBW enabled 2-Engine fighter. If we manage to move half the funds and a portion of workforce from mk2 to AMCA, then the program might have more resources to execute new technologies like DSI and interface for loyal wing-man.

What if we could skip the process of mk2 in front-line service? We may develop 2 prototypes of mk2. Let us develop all the mk2 technologies like intakes, IRST and internal jammer. But not put it to a production line. We can port them directly to AMCA and HLFT-42. AMCA can serve as the high end fighter and the all metallic cheaper HLFT-42 can serve as the low end of the fighter. The current efforts will not go in waste. If we have 4 jammers and irst ordered, We can use 2 of them on HLFT-42 development. There will be an immediate market of 108 numbers of HLFT-42 too which will make it an affordable development venture with least 54 IOC and 54 FOC aircraft to be made in 2 tranches. This will help skip the Tejas chicken-egg problem of low order numbers and low production rate.

We have 3 production lines for Tejas mk1a. An additional 50 order reported during aero India by Shiv aroor should keep the production line running till HLFT-42 is ready. HLFT-42 specs should be framed in such a way that a trainer/fighter variants are both possible with the same airframe like T-50/F-50 of Korea. In order to use the same radar and engine, the same interfaces should be used on the fighter fuselage. F-414 with the higher thrust should manage the increased weight of HLFT-42.

Rakesh wrote:The only fallback (i.e. ready made, off the shelf) turbofan option is the EJ200, which lost out to the F414 turbofan for the Tejas Mk2. But installing another turbofan on the Tejas, is easier said than done. It will delay the Mk2 program.

The off the shelf replacement one of the scientists quoted was RD-93 engine which is being produced in HAL. But we have to settle with less engine life.

We made the right decision going with F-414. The F414 has the same size and interfaces for mating as F404. If we had gone for EJ-200, then DRDO will sing the same song of ab initio design, new intakes and power delivery systems. You can see that Korea has done the same and how quick their program has been. Not to mention the Engine is price competitive. The turks too have used F404 in Hurjet as well despite geopolitics due to cost. So mk2, AMCA and HLFT-42 will be more affordable especially once the Engine is made in India. And EJ-200 will not bring any Geo-political benefits either. Just look at Germany. The strongest nation in Europe. But had to pull out of Iran nuclear deal due to Trump and less said of the English the better despite their desi PM.

The French are a different bunch. We can count on the French to co-develop a 110 kn engine. But for that MRFA 114 should go to Dassault and then Safran will do offset investment to develop the Engine. But we should never give up on our own efforts. Let us hope the Dry Kaveri Engine in production at Godrej meets its performance goals.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 05 May 2023 14:40

^^ Only the quality of the product should not be the sole criteria. Reliability of the vendor is a big issue that should not have been ignored. Russian would have been a better bet. No point in choosing the best in the world, and then find that delivery has been blocked because the vendor is a shrewd Shylock who doesn't want your own product to come to the market.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 May 2023 15:11

I don't see the point in license producing GE 414s in India. Years of manufacturing AL-31's have done ****-all in our ability to design & manufacture our own Kaveri.

We shouldn't let license-manufacturing deadlock come in the way of the MK2 or AMCA program. Lets just buy them off the shelf.

srin · Post by **srin** » 05 May 2023 15:43

GE-414 vs EJ-200 bake off happened and was decided in 2010. See the GE press release at that time ...

John Flannery, President & CEO, GE India said, "The LCA selection is a big step forward for GE and demonstrates our strong commitment to India. GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement."

Did we select GE-414 without the US Govt approval for ToT (or even screwdriver-giri in India) ?

This conversation should have happened 15 years ago.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 May 2023 20:16

srin wrote:Did we select GE-414 without the US Govt approval for ToT (or even screwdriver-giri in India) ?

This conversation should have happened 15 years ago.

Yes, but we also need to look at various other geopolitical events that happened in 2010.

In 2010, MMRCA 1.0 was in full swing. To everyone - except Air HQ - it was a near certainty that either the F-16IN or the F-18 Block II was going to make the cut. In 2010, Ashley Tellis wrote a 150 page article on MMRCA 1.0 and at the end he famously remarked ---> "A selection process that is transparent, speedy, and focused on the right metrics will not only strengthen the IAF’s combat capabilities, but it will also earn the respect of all the competing vendors and their national patrons. Some of them will be disappointed by India’s final choice, but those, alas, are the rules of the game."

Words that came back to haunt Ashley Tellis, but no one - not the GOI, HAL, GOTUS, Geopolitical Analysts, Media, etc - had an inkling of what was coming down the pipeline. When the hammer struck on 27 April 2011 (technical downselect), it came as a shock to everyone. Ashey Tellis ruefully wrote that India should have quietly advised the US Govt of this decision.

See the stakeholders who had to make the decision (EJ200 vs GE F414). They are HAL, the bureaucracy and the then GOI (the UPA Govt). See also the bonhomie that preceded this decision (i.e. 123 Nuclear Agreement, then President Obama's visit to India, etc). Boeing was making significant inroads via the C-17, P-8I and Lockheed Martin was not far behind with the C-130. Purchasing American hardware was the preferred choice back then (and still is i.e. Predator drones, MH-60R, etc). Air/Naval HQ was buying such American kit without batting an eyelid. So to everyone (incl GOTUS), the next logical step was an American fighter for India.

So when the decision came in 2010 to select a turbofan for the Tejas Mk2, the choice was between the EJ200 or the GE F414. The latter was the easier route in 2010 and HAL had significant experience (by 2010) with the GE F404. It had been nine years in 2010, when the Tejas TD-1 flew on 04 Jan 2001. By 2010, HAL knew everything that needed to be known about the GE F404. They had sufficient experience with it and the GE F414 was the logical choice for the next Tejas variant. So in 2010, GE expected to build a license production factory for the F414 in India. Because it would serve not just the Tejas Mk2, but the F-18SH Block II as well. The Rhino was the rumoured choice in MMRCA 1.0, as Pakistan operated the F-16 and India would have never purchased it.

American turbofan powering 126 F-18SHs plus 'X' number of Tejas Mk2s. The US Govt would not have been apprehensive to such a deal. But now we are in 2023 and see the geopolitical events today;

* Air HQ basically said FU to Amreeka in MMRCA 1.0 when they rejected the American birds. It angered everyone in the GOTUS and Ashley Tellis channeled that anger via a number of articles.

* MMRCA 1.0 died a slow death (from 31 Jan 2012 till 26 May 2014), as Dassault and the GOI could not see eye-to-eye on producing a triple digit Rafale order in India.

* 26 May 2014 was the date when NaMo became Prime Minister. The whole process was rebooted. MMRCA 1.0 finally ended up in a truncated number of 36 Rafales.

* Then came the SE fighter contest in 2016. American hopes came up again and so did the posters on BRF (who were rooting for Amreeka in MMRCA 1.0). F-16 production was going to revolutionize the Indian aviation industry. But that died in 2018, when the SE contest was scrapped in favour of the MRFA contest. That angered the Americans yet again, as India was now proving to be an unreliable ally. India was not funding the American MIC, as the Americans had hoped.

* By 2023, all 36 Rafales have joined the Indian Air Force. The Rafale has proven to be an excellent multi-role fighter in service. Significant resources have been poured into setting up two Rafale air bases in India. Rafale M is supposedly the winner in the MRCBF contest. None of this has been lost on Boeing (F-15EX, F-18SH), Lockheed Martin (F-21) and GOTUS. They now realize that they are holding the short end of the stick and they desperately want a win. Their hope now lies in the MRFA (and perhaps even the MRCBF) contests.

* The only way to do this is to choke Indian programs (Tejas Mk2 and AMCA) and force India to the negotiating table. If you want GE F414 production in India, you must select an American fighter. This is what was likely conveyed to NSA Ajit Doval, when he visited the US in February. But Air HQ will not touch an American fighter (i.e. the F-15EX, F-18, F-21) with a ten foot barge pole. Technically sound aircraft, but geopolitically highly unreliable. Denying license production of the F414 in India plays right into that argument.

* Along this train of thought, there is another threat that the US sees. In the past 2+ decades since the Tejas first flew, the program has evolved significantly. No one in India could have imagined this progression on 04 Jan 2001. From Tejas Mk1, today you have Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA, TEDBF, CATS Warrior, etc, etc. This will threaten sales of American hardware to countries that want air power but cannot afford Western kit. But why should India sell a Tejas fighter (with a US engine), when we can sell a US fighter, with a US engine. Why divide the pie?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 May 2023 20:29

There are limited paths India can take now;

* Import F414 turbofans directly from the US. More expensive route, but that is what is available. Your leverage is entirely in the US' hands.

* Go to the EuroJet Turbo GmbH consortium and install the EJ200 on the Tejas Mk2. Will see significant delays in the Tejas Mk2 if this route is taken. However, Rolls Royce (part of the consortium) is hoping to win the 110kN turbofan contest for the AMCA program. Perhaps some deal could be worked out (?). Unfortunately, England is a vassal state of the US and when Uncle Sam says jump, England dutifully and obediently asks how high. So any contract signed with Rolls Royce will have to get Uncle Sam's nod.

* Get a clean sheet turbofan design (minimum a decade) and install it on the Tejas Mk2. Along this path, get a pair of used A330s/B747s and use them as FTBs. Invest in further improving the Kaveri. Maitya-ji should chime in here, as he is the expert.

The only winner in this twist to the story is the OEMs in the MRFA contest. 114 MRFA - if not more - will now have to come. The numbers are falling and rapidly. And if Air HQ has its way, it will be Dassault.

P.S. MRFA will be expensive in triple digits. So India will turn back to her tried & true friend, Russia. A bad dream could likely turn out be true. A possible repetition of the 1980s Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 acquisitions. Today it is Rafale and (?) MiG-35/Su-35/Su-57/Su-75 (?)

GOTUS will do what they did *NOT* want to see happen --> Send India right back to Mother Russia. Putin will smile

maitya wrote:....

Paging You Saar

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 05 May 2023 20:38

Great sum-up of the events and history Rakesh ji. Obviously not everything happens in a vacuum and I personally feel IAF HQ came to the right decision of not getting on the US fighter wagon, till now. Were any lessons learnt by GoI, AirHQ, HAL from this Tejas/MMRCA saga in the last 20 years is still up in the air and by all talk that's blowing around it seems we are about to walk the same walk, yet again. Crucial in all this are our missteps with Kaveri's development. Where and how the Kaveri program goes dictates who India will make happy or jilt in the next 2 decades.

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 05 May 2023 21:57

India must put Kaveri in air locally. Go the route of yf17 to f18 if needed.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 May 2023 01:14

After the 1998 sanctions, ADA shouldve dropped all US inputs like a hot brick! That they did not do so shows a clear lab rat / technocrat mindset with little emphasis on practical production for user needs.

The 2007-08 thrust deficit issue was another moment of opportunity when the US could and should have been discarded and the LCA redesigned. perhaps around the Al31FP. In one stroke, we could have met the mmrca requirement, replaced the mig 21, and had a powerful NLCA.

The 2010 engine decision was another moment of opportunity to make the Tejas program strategically independent.

But no, the decision-makers dug in their heels and now we are the mercy of US Congress. Even people here continue to defend these decisions. As a result, things will never change and we will continue to depend on and whine about phoren imports. We deserve what we get.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 May 2023 01:26

Maybe there is a way out of this situation:

India demands local production of 414 in return for a silver bullet force of 36-45 x F35... For the Navy. At least that will add some value to the equation.

The AF can get another 36 rafale, 300+ Tejas in all versions, and shut their whining.

Pay the piper. We made the choice to sleep with him ages ago!