Indian Light Tank: News & Discussion

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Apr 2023 10:18

Not Rohit, but this has been a concern with me ever since I learnt that this vehicle will be limited to 105 mm gun.

My reasons for this are as follows.

1) 105 has not been able to kill modern medium or heavy tanks ever since composite armour was invented.

2) We know that the PLA had supported modern heavy armour during and after the Galawan clash. As did the Indian army with our deployment of the T90 tanks opposite to PLA heavy armour.

3) in the face of historical deployment of PLA heavy armour. The Indian army seems to be extremely confident that Zoravar will never be compelled to fight against the PLA modern heavy armour.

4) the US with the XM 360 and Switzerland with 120 mm compact tank gun have tools to give MBT firepower for vehicles such as the Zoravar. So it is doubly troubling for me. That the Indian army is limiting Zoravar to 105 mm.

The above were a list of my concerns WRT, the Zoravar vehicle.

The main counterpoint to the above list is the indications from the Indian army that it is also planning to deploy the NAMICA combat module to 8*8 vehicles. This should increase the numbers of such vehicle substantially along with the tank destroyer capacity of the Indian army.

It is possible that the army is looking for a team up between Zoravar and the NAMICA in order to combat PLA heavy armour.

However, in the absence of TOE of the formation, it's impossible to say what the doctrine is going to be.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Apr 2023 10:01

The Indian army had close to 4000 tanks with 105 mm guns in service. Some of these tanks are still in storage even now.

There must be stockpiles of hundreds of thousands of rounds for those tanks.

When you look at the choice of 105 mm gun for Zoravar from that POV. It starts to make sense.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 26 Apr 2023 17:54

I am also against the imported Cockerill cannon.
Our experience with Bhishma was bad.Not only did we get the short end of the stick as far as ToT for the Barrel was concerned(which lead to a DRDO intervention), our experience with ammo was terrible.We only managed to get the Mango/AMK339 ToT just some years back.
Better put the Gandiva on the Z.
We already have a fine suite of weapons qualified for that including a PCB round.
We have fired off CLGMs too and I wish to see a cannon fired drone too.Future is bright.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 27 Apr 2023 04:31

MeshaVishwas please kindly do not speak in riddles for the benefit of simple folks like me. The reason language exists is to communicate and be understood yes?

I presume Gandiva is the 120mm run from DRDO.
I presume Z is the Zoravar.

The 120 gun and resultant turret cannot be fitted on the Zoravar. The Chassis will not take the weight.
The Cockerill turret is a good way to go to derisk it.
We are not getting any ammo from Cockerill; in any case, 105 mm ammo is easy to procure against the more bespoke T series ammo.
We can progressively replace it if required.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 27 Apr 2023 13:42

ks_sachin wrote:MeshaVishwas please kindly do not speak in riddles for the benefit of simple folks like me. The reason language exists is to communicate and be understood yes?

I presume Gandiva is the 120mm run from DRDO.
I presume Z is the Zoravar.

The 120 gun and resultant turret cannot be fitted on the Zoravar. The Chassis will not take the weight.
The Cockerill turret is a good way to go to derisk it.
We are not getting any ammo from Cockerill; in any case, 105 mm ammo is easy to procure against the more bespoke T series ammo.
We can progressively replace it if required.

My apologies.
My point is that the hull is a bespoke model and a DRDO one at that.Instead of readymade foreign turret and custom hull, we could have used the turret from Arjun.
If Roos can build a Sprut with the same cannon as the T series
We can definitely adapt the 120mm Arjun cannon in a smaller hull.
Weapons part as well, this makes so much sense.

mody · Post by **mody** » 29 Apr 2023 17:24

For a 25Ton weight limit, the Arjun 120mm rifled gun is out of the picture.
Going for off the shelf gun and off the shelf engine is the easiest way to proceed with the project. Also remember that IA has only committed to purchasing upto 59 tanks from L&T-DRDO combine, if the tests of the tank are successful. The balance requirement will be tackled separately.
It would have helped if we had developed a family of engines along with the 1,500 HP engine for MBTs. A 600HP and 750HP-800HP engines would have been useful. However, the current effort can almost be called a proof of concept project. If the Zorawar turns out to be successful, then IA will firm up its requirement, based on the envisaged role for light tanks.

Personally I have not understood the entire light tank requirement. A lightly armoured and lightly armed vehicle would stand little chance against a plethora of man portable ATGMS and the proliferation of a range to loitering ammunition and UAVs.

Probably IA intends to use them to strike and occupy land on the Chinese side of the LAC.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 29 Apr 2023 17:48

^^
Saar, If the Rooskies can fit a 125mm cannon inside a 21T package in the 80s, I am confident we can package a system with the Arjun cannon given today's engineering and materials science chops.
Plus the 105mm tank ammo is not made here anymore from what I have googled.
The missile fired from this cannon exists in small qty and I assume very very expensive.
And any future improvement will mean dialling +44 again.
Edit: I also want to add one more point.
We will surely add own Hard Kill APS on our Armour platforms in the future, so more cheques to Cockerill for certifying them on their Turret.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Apr 2023 18:02

Arjun canon will not fit a 25 ton vehicle.

If India wants an indigenous solution. Then one will have to be developed from the scratch. The fact is that the US, Russians and the Swiss of all people have demonstrated that it's possible to design and develop a MBT gun for vehicles in the 25 to 30 ton class.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 29 Apr 2023 18:09

Saar, I think your meant Arjun Turret won't fit in this vehicle?
The cannon on its own is a part of the turret and weighs a portion.
Not sure exactly how much though.
The Karna MBT/Tank EX saw DRDO reduce ammo storage and use other nifty tricks to mate the chunky Arjun Turret on the T-72 hull.
We can do it.Just needs the Parrikar Ji types to nudge all sides into agreement.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 29 Apr 2023 18:49

MeshaVishwas wrote:Saar, I think your meant Arjun Turret won't fit in this vehicle?
The cannon on its own is a part of the turret and weighs a portion.
Not sure exactly how much though.
The Karna MBT/Tank EX saw DRDO reduce ammo storage and use other nifty tricks to mate the chunky Arjun Turret on the T-72 hull.
We can do it.Just needs the Parrikar Ji types to nudge all sides into agreement.

Last point is the reason why it will never happen.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Apr 2023 19:29

MeshaVishwas wrote:Saar, I think your meant Arjun Turret won't fit in this vehicle?

No, the canon has to be designed in a way that it's recoil is mitigated in a such a way that it can be safely be deployed on a lighter vehicle. The Gandiv in it's current form is incapable of being used on a lighter vehicle.

MeshaVishwas wrote: The cannon on its own is a part of the turret and weighs a portion.
Not sure exactly how much though.

The gun plus turret is about between 25 to 30 tons. The gun itself is about 3.5 tons

MeshaVishwas wrote: The Karna MBT/Tank EX saw DRDO reduce ammo storage and use other nifty tricks to mate the chunky Arjun Turret on the T-72 hull.

Such experiments don't really work. Unless the turret is designed for the vehicle ab-intio. A new turret designed for another vehicle has never been successfully executed till date.

There have been attempts to fit the M1 turrets on the M60s of Turkey in the early 2000s. But that was rejected as too expensive. The Turks chose to go with the Sabra upgrade package from Israel.

The Ukrainian, Yataghan upgrade of the mid 90s for the USSR origin tanks was the best upgrade for such tanks.. But that didn't go anywhere.

The Russians have come up with the T90 MS. But that is a waste of time and money.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 29 Apr 2023 19:41

Got your points Saar thanks.
No more belabouring on this from me.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Apr 2023 22:29

mody wrote: Personally I have not understood the entire light tank requirement. A lightly armoured and lightly armed vehicle would stand little chance against a plethora of man portable ATGMS and the proliferation of a range to loitering ammunition and UAVs.

Probably IA intends to use them to strike and occupy land on the Chinese side of the LAC.

Cost: A single ATGM will cost say $100K, a HEAT-MP round will average $2500. A tank can fire this at a higher range, with better protection at lower cost and enough rounds (30-50) of them in store. Who would be more threatened the one with the ATGM or the one with better protection and staying power? These tanks would be integral to a brigade with sustained firepower and without over reliance on more expensive airborne assets.

Logistics and Mobility: In the mountains, the ability to transport by air and land quickly and efficiently is a vital need to react to changing dynamics over a large border. We are in process of reorienting our I-Corps for the mountains, which was plains oriented for decades. They need armor that can be effectively used in the mountains.

Maintenance and uptime: The IA has deployed the T-72 in Ladakh for over a decade and has learnt from experience on what it takes to keep these machines fighting fit every day. The altitude and temperate takes a toll on man and machine. The downtime of a newer lighter tank would be reduced.

The armor protection of large heavy tanks comes at the expense of mobility, maintenance and cost. China has about 500 Type 15 light tanks and they were designed specifically for the mountains.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 30 Apr 2023 01:04

MeshaVishwas wrote:Saar, I think your meant Arjun Turret won't fit in this vehicle?
The cannon on its own is a part of the turret and weighs a portion.
Not sure exactly how much though.
The Karna MBT/Tank EX saw DRDO reduce ammo storage and use other nifty tricks to mate the chunky Arjun Turret on the T-72 hull.
We can do it.Just needs the Parrikar Ji types to nudge all sides into agreement.

The Arjun turret on the T72 did not work. The chassis could not take the weight.
Too much of weight reduction through ammo and armr makes the tank a lovely parade piece

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 30 Apr 2023 03:21

ks_sachin wrote: The Arjun turret on the T72 did not work. The chassis could not take the weight.
Too much of weight reduction through ammo and armr makes the tank a lovely parade piece

Correct. The US tried the 105 mm on a Stryker platform weighing 20 tons and it has not worked well. The main gun of a light tank is not intended to take on modern heavy tank armor, it is to provide direct fire to fortified enemy positions and protection against artillery bursts and high caliber machine guns. I do not think it will be practical to expect more than 105 mm on a 25 ton platform. The name of the game for this machine would be its C4 ISR capabilities to fight and survive.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Apr 2023 11:49

The Arjun gun on T72 was wrong combination as the chassis could not handle the reaction forces.
The light tank is the K9 chassis using 155mm gun. So 105mm should be OK.
The threat is Chinese light tanks along LAC not the heavy tanks along Pak border.
During 2020 it was realized need a light tank. As usual Russian tank came up top of list till other options were ranked.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 30 Apr 2023 12:24

I believe Zorawar is not on K9 chasis

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Apr 2023 12:34

Very early concept vehicle was based on the K9 chassis.

This vehicle is now going to be based on a chassis developed by L&T.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 30 Apr 2023 18:04

If it’sa new chassis why not the Gandiv? Or is the gun too heavy as well for the given requirements?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Apr 2023 23:49

MeshaVishwas wrote:^^
Saar, If the Rooskies can fit a 125mm cannon inside a 21T package in the 80s, I am confident we can package a system with the Arjun cannon given today's engineering and materials science chops.
Plus the 105mm tank ammo is not made here anymore from what I have googled.
The missile fired from this cannon exists in small qty and I assume very very expensive.
And any future improvement will mean dialling +44 again.
Edit: I also want to add one more point.
We will surely add own Hard Kill APS on our Armour platforms in the future, so more cheques to Cockerill for certifying them on their Turret.

Except the Russians haven't. Their program had multiple issues with hull failures. It's OK if we get the ammo from abroad provided DRDO's partner get the mfg tech. We are behind in FSAPDS ammo right now, a step up can't hurt. With a mere single regiment commitment, it's a miracle we are planning a functional system - a testament to our frugal engineering, and hence imported subsystems are unavoidable. In contrast, any other tank will be fully imported. If the Israeli 120mm out penetrated the 105mm significantly, it'd be one thing, chances are its a low pressure variant with consequently reduced performance. Cockerill has a low pressure 120mm on offer too.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Aug 2023 18:58

Indian Army may have to wait longer for light tank
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/indi ... -102544150
09 August 2023

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Aug 2023 20:56

Why is the CVRDE 600 hp diesel not in consideration for the vehicle?

Or why is it so hard to develop a higher rated engine for the vehicle.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Oct 2023 05:17

India turns to American engine for light tanks after German deal falls through
https://www.defencenews.in/2023/10/indi ... s-through/
14 Oct 2023

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Oct 2023 10:31

Whatever happened to the 600 hp engine CVRDE had developed in partnership with Ashok Leyland.

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1782003

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 16 Oct 2023 18:07

Just thinking aloud.
Instead of having a main gun can this light "tank" have a sizebale number of anti-tank missiles, say 12- 16 Nag / Amogh ?
Crew of 2. A medium MG for self protetction against enemy infantry

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 16 Oct 2023 20:29

Kersi wrote: ↑16 Oct 2023 18:07 Just thinking aloud.
Instead of having a main gun can this light "tank" have a sizebale number of anti-tank missiles, say 12- 16 Nag / Amogh ?
Crew of 2. A medium MG for self protetction against enemy infantry

That’s NAMICA which went thru endless rounds of winter , summer monsoon trials and a small batch was ordered

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 15 Nov 2023 14:25

Manu Pubby reporting that the light tank developed by DRDO and L&T will begin trials by end of the year. Its not based on Vajra chassis. Will have a US engine, 105 mm main gun, APS and integrated UAV

The induction plan, if this report is true, is baffling to say the least. 59 to be ordered right away & the 300 remaining to be opened to competitive tendering, which will result in them getting delivered over a decade

Why would L&T co-develop a tank for it to be tendered-out? Why 1 decade for 300 tanks? These are questions that mere mortals cannot fathom

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/17 ... gr%5Etweet

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 15 Nov 2023 14:27

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/indias- ... n-december

India's indigenously designed and developed light tank, tentatively named Zorawar, is likely to be ready for trials by the end of this month

India's indigenously designed and developed light tank, tentatively named Zorawar, is likely to be ready for trials by the end of this month, a report in the Economic Times says.

The tank, designed for operations in high-altitude regions, primarily on the border with China in response to its armored deployments, is expected to exhibit superior mobility and firepower compared to its Chinese counterpart, the Type 15 tank.

The tank will undergo a series of trials in December, the report adds.

Developed in record time, the 25-tonne category light tank addresses the need for increased mobility in extreme altitudes, a crucial factor in the context of escalating tensions in eastern Ladakh in 2020.

China's deployment of light armor in high-altitude locations prompted the rapid development of the Indian tank, which has been designed with a unique chassis, dispelling earlier reports that it might utilize the K9 Vajra self-propelled gun chassis.

The tank, featuring a 105 mm gun manufactured by John Cockerill, is set to undergo trials in December after receiving approval for development in April 2022. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) collaborated with Larsen and Toubro (L&T) for this project, aiming to equip the Indian military with a highly mobile and accurate firepower platform.

Contrary to initial speculation, the tank is an entirely new design, showcasing indigenous technological prowess.

The 105 mm gun, a critical component, is likely to be produced in India for serial production of the tanks.

The design incorporates active protection against incoming attacks and includes an integrated Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) to enhance battlefield visibility, a crucial feature for operations in challenging terrains.

The Zorawar tank is specifically tasked to operate in all terrains, ranging from high-altitude areas to island territories, and is designed to be air transportable for rapid deployment.

The tank's capabilities are expected to outshine the Chinese Type 15 tanks, providing the Indian military with a strategic edge in the region.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Nov 2023 20:20

Indian light tank for high altitude operations to be ready this month
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 216702.cms
14 Nov 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Nov 2023 22:15

German engines available now but India to use American power plants for entire Zorawar light tank project
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 116203108/
16 Nov 2023

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Nov 2023 09:02

What is the engine size or model number ?
None of the report has that info.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 18 Nov 2023 09:46

ramana wrote: ↑18 Nov 2023 09:02 What is the engine size or model number ?
None of the report has that info.

Would it be the Cummins ACE?

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/cummins-ma ... -cylinder/

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... in-october

I doubt it given that it is very new and not battle-proven.

But it is quite compact (for light tanks) and modular (for MBTs)

hgupta · Post by **hgupta** » 18 Nov 2023 10:00

What's the torque? Torque is way more important than horsepower for heavy vehicles.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2023 09:59

And German engine ?

I don't think you need 1000 hp for a 25 ton tank.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Nov 2023 10:12

This engine issue is incomprehensible to me.

CVRDE was developing a 600 hp engine with tech transfer to Ashok Leyland. What happened to that effort?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 20 Nov 2023 10:24

ramana wrote: ↑20 Nov 2023 09:59 And German engine ?

I don't think you need 1000 hp for a 25 ton tank.

Ramana ji, as per the RFP the Power to Weight ratio is defined as 'not less than 30 HP per Ton' with 'combat weight' not to exceed '25 +/- 10% Tons'

So the power requirements seem to be specified at a minimum of 750 hp for a 25 ton tank.
(or a range of 675 hp to 825 hp based on the 10% weight flexibility)

Therefore at altitudes where the IA wants to operate it, the upper limit would require to be near 1000 hp.

Also mil equipment, almost inevitably, will tend to get heavier with add-ons like protection systems (even dumb systems like tiles/anti-drone canopy etc). So the 1000 Hp figure seems to be what is thought to be needed.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Nov 2023 14:19

Our engine/powertrain ecosystem is a disaster. For a country with such a huge automobile industry, we still import 1000 Hp engines. Similarly, there was much talk about marine-Kaveri and that has gotten nowhere

Just like National Semiconductor mission or Supercomputing mission, we badly need a National Powerpack Mission. We must master engines/motors at every power and scale level, on a mission mode.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 20 Nov 2023 16:43

Isn't the T-90/T-72 engine around 800HP? Couldn't the same be used for Zorawar? The T-90 engine powers around 50-55 ton tank, so it should be sufficient for the 25 tonner. Aren't we manufacturing these engines in India now?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 20 Nov 2023 20:13

Prem Kumar wrote: ↑20 Nov 2023 14:19 ...
Just like National Semiconductor mission or Supercomputing mission, we badly need a National Powerpack Mission. We must master engines/motors at every power and scale level, on a mission mode.

+1. No truer words than these...

Powertrains - the heart of all mobility - air, land, sea, sub-surface.

We must keep at it. There is no other way.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Nov 2023 20:31

Prem Kumar wrote: ↑20 Nov 2023 14:19 Our engine/powertrain ecosystem is a disaster. For a country with such a huge automobile industry, we still import 1000 Hp engines. Similarly, there was much talk about marine-Kaveri and that has gotten nowhere

Just like National Semiconductor mission or Supercomputing mission, we badly need a National Powerpack Mission. We must master engines/motors at every power and scale level, on a mission mode.

It is not a disaster.

2000 onwards I used to travel as a consultant (100%) in the US. I have accidentally met dozen+ of Indian engineers working for various US motor companies (Ford, Caterpillar, etc). I asked all of them the same question - is India starved of brains to make a "powerpack"? Every one of them said it was a matter between the government and the services. Nothing to do with technology.

IMO, it is some combination of politicians, services, and bureaucracy.