CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

[Prem Kumar]

Agree with Jay. Abduls don't need reasons to strike at the Kufr. ISI will show Atiq encounter on live TV and use it to mobilize jihadis under a "Muslims are getting killed openly in India" banner.

But killing off jernails, ISI handlers and other officers, sowing dissent and suspicion in their ranks etc will destroy the power-pyramid that exists in Pakistan. Currently the PA sits on top of that pyramid but that's slowly getting eroded. If we smash them up further, their position on top will crumble. If the power-structure in a society collapses, chaos will follow. Especially true in Islamic societies, where its easy to foment dark-green vs light-green action.

ISI & PA must be castrated. Then we can grab a popcorn and watch the fun

[RoyG]

Agree with Jay. Abduls don't need reasons to strike at the Kufr. ISI will show Atiq encounter on live TV and use it to mobilize jihadis under a "Muslims are getting killed openly in India" banner.

But killing off jernails, ISI handlers and other officers, sowing dissent and suspicion in their ranks etc will destroy the power-pyramid that exists in Pakistan. Currently the PA sits on top of that pyramid but that's slowly getting eroded. If we smash them up further, their position on top will crumble. If the power-structure in a society collapses, chaos will follow. Especially true in Islamic societies, where its easy to foment dark-green vs light-green action.

ISI & PA must be castrated. Then we can grab a popcorn and watch the fun

You're overthinking this. In politics, institutional (military in this case) and public placation is important. Regardless of the response, Pakistan will continue to face worsening instability.

[Aditya_V]

Apparently explosives and money for Poonch attack came via drones, we better have some way tackle this.

https://www.deccanherald.com/national/n ... 13860.html

[Prem Kumar]

Pakis might have stopped sending bullets flying across the LOC, a.k.a ceasefire. But

1) They continue to send jihadis across
2) Send drones across

We need to decide what our redlines are?

We seem happy to shoot down a drone or to kill the drug-addicted jihadis who are not worth dried dog-poop. We need to go after the Paki Army, both directly (surgical strikes, destroying posts) & indirectly (via proxies, just like they send across jihadis)

There was also heavy local informants - about 30 have been arrested. They targeted a van carrying goodies for the Iftar party that the IA was organizing. Gives insight into the Muslim mind. Hope the IA comes out of its Sadbhavana mentality. You can't win over Islam with an olive branch. You need to drop a banyan tree on it.

[ks_sachin]

Pakis might have stopped sending bullets flying across the LOC, a.k.a ceasefire. But

1) They continue to send jihadis across
2) Send drones across

We need to decide what our redlines are?

We seem happy to shoot down a drone or to kill the drug-addicted jihadis who are not worth dried dog-poop. We need to go after the Paki Army, both directly (surgical strikes, destroying posts) & indirectly (via proxies, just like they send across jihadis)

There was also heavy local informants - about 30 have been arrested. They targeted a van carrying goodies for the Iftar party that the IA was organizing. Gives insight into the Muslim mind. Hope the IA comes out of its Sadbhavana mentality. You can't win over Islam with an olive branch. You need to drop a banyan tree on it.

One needs balls for this....the Govt has to redraw the lines for the Army to act...

[AkshaySG]

5 men of the 9 Para SF were killed in action in an encounter with Terrorists in the Kandi Forest area of Rajouri Sector.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/16 ... 70115?s=19

Operations were being conducted to flush out terrorists who were involved in the ambush of the Army truck a few weeks ago

[RoyG]

5 men of the 9 Para SF were killed in action in an encounter with Terrorists in the Kandi Forest area of Rajouri Sector.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/16 ... 70115?s=19

Operations were being conducted to flush out terrorists who were involved in the ambush of the Army truck a few weeks ago

This group is clearly well trained. Detonated/tripped a claymore type device? The casualty count is now 10 overall.

[Cyrano]

Right on the dot for Paki FM visit to India for SCO meeting. Provocation that deserves a disproportionate response.

[vikassh]

10 is a very big number for a elite unit. It is probably the pressure to deliver results fast. The other side is hell bent to show the world that atmosphere is not good for a global summit.

[Cyrano]

Based on the details we are getting, able to inflict such losses on our SF Paras using IEDs etc is beyond the ability of charsi terrorists. Most likely Paki SFs are involved without uniforms. Reading this together with Pak's heartburn on G20 meetings planned in J&K, this seems like a specific operation to make J&K appear unstable and dangerous.

Secondly, there could be others who are tacitly encouraging Pakis to derail/disturb India's presidency of G20 and SCO with this type of unrest and provocations that test our "this is not an era of war" statement.

[S_Madhukar]

Om shanti to the brave Paras!
Bakis seem to have a textbook method of inflicting casualties and all we can talk is difficult terrain this and that… high time we took tech in our stride and let drones loose for recon and SAR instead of relying on humint and more risk. It’s almost like they have gamed this better than we do

[Aditya_V]

We always think Pakis want peace, but as long as that nation exists, this is what they will do. We need to keep on killing till the country is broken thier pollution is tackled.

[Prem Kumar]

Vikassh: 10 is not from Para. 5 was from the earlier truck ambush and were RR

1) Its time to make Surgical Strikes part of the new normal with Pakistan. Not just "once in 3 years" spectacular hits but constant, pro-active hits.
2) We need to hit ISI, Paki Officers, SSG etc. Not just cannon fodder, drug-addled jihadis
3) Expecting to be hit & hit often must be the new Overton window that the Paki Army must get used to. Just like infiltration & terror-attacks are a normal for us, getting blown up must become the new normal for them
4) Pakis will be prepared for a Surgical Strike and on high alert. Terror camps will be relocated. Which is why we must hit as often as we want. They must not know when the next hit comes (or they should tear their hair out, being paranoid all the time)

We have the capability and over 9 years, Doval would have built it up even further. What's needed is the political will and the budgets

[Jay]

Vikassh: 10 is not from Para. 5 was from the earlier truck ambush and were RR

1) Its time to make Surgical Strikes part of the new normal with Pakistan.
2) We need to hit ISI, Paki Officers, SSG etc. Not just cannon fodder, drug-addled jihadis
3) Expecting to be hit & hit often must be the new Overton window that the Paki Army must get used to. Just like infiltration & terror-attacks are a normal for us, getting blown up must become the new normal for them
4) Pakis will be prepared for a Surgical Strike and on high alert. Terror camps will be relocated. Which is why we must hit as often as we want. They must not know when the next hit comes (or they should tear their hair out, being paranoid all the time)

We have the capability and over 9 years, Doval would have built it up even further. What's needed is the political will and the budgets

This needs to be written down as a policy, yet we have people, some even here in BR thinking that the response should be a covert one else we wil unite their mango abduls and such...

NO. If our objective is to stop these attacks then the only logical way it to extract disproportionate pain on Paki's and make sure that everybody knows this is what we did. Pakis have started to think, because we do not want to slowdown economic progress we will take these kind of attacks and so far this year, it seems like it. If not publicly addressed by show of force, this restraint will come back to bit us.

[sanman]

Vikassh: 10 is not from Para. 5 was from the earlier truck ambush and were RR

1) Its time to make Surgical Strikes part of the new normal with Pakistan. Not just "once in 3 years" spectacular hits but constant, pro-active hits.
2) We need to hit ISI, Paki Officers, SSG etc. Not just cannon fodder, drug-addled jihadis
3) Expecting to be hit & hit often must be the new Overton window that the Paki Army must get used to. Just like infiltration & terror-attacks are a normal for us, getting blown up must become the new normal for them
4) Pakis will be prepared for a Surgical Strike and on high alert. Terror camps will be relocated. Which is why we must hit as often as we want. They must not know when the next hit comes (or they should tear their hair out, being paranoid all the time)

We have the capability and over 9 years, Doval would have built it up even further. What's needed is the political will and the budgets

Pak Army is orchestrating these attacks precisely because it wants to provoke some counterattack from India.

Otherwise, Pak Army will continue to feel attacks from a disenchanted public who are starved for food by that army.

We should look for some option besides surgical strikes, which would only play into Pak Army's hands to give them what they want.

Possibilities:

1) counter-response thru TTP or Balochistan
2) reduce river water flow through dams
3) both

[AkshaySG]

^^ This makes little sense.. So if Pak Army is causing these attacks and inflicting high casualties on our personnel we should shy away from attacking them directly???

What exactly do you think "would play into their hands" here if IA stages some direct attacks.. At max they might go crying to their American Masters for a "relief package" or get some PR points for western press . Neither of which are nearly as important as enacting punishment for these strikes and deter future ones

Pak Army still has its common population by the neck.. Just because there have been a few whispers of discontent here and there doesn't mean they are in any danger of losing their power

You think reducing water flow or some more disturbances in Baloch will make Isi and Pak Army take a step back from insurgency?... They only fear a direct response, The common man dying from water scarcity or a few more truck bombs in some corner province means nothing to them.

Might as well be back to MMS kadi ninda while we're at it

[Jay]

Pak Army is orchestrating these attacks precisely because it wants to provoke some counterattack from India.

That's beyond the point on what Pakis objectives are with this attack. When someone slaps you with the objective of eliciting a response, you not responding in kind and theorizing how you would hurt their mai baap would also increase further attacks on you. All this round about way of theorizing would not accomplish much as Pakis do not care if they lose a few abduls in a covert operation. Also, can you categorically say with any proof did India ever achieve any thing or if India ever carried any ops in TTP or Baluchistan? I'll wait till you get some cited sources. On the other hand, I can cite a dozen sources on what India did with Balakot attack, and what was achieved and how it brought peace for a few years.

Otherwise, Pak Army will continue to feel attacks from a disenchanted public who are starved for food by that army.

Absolutely should not be our concern. Are we saying, not only we should mind Paki forces feelings, but also Paki abduls feelings too? Really? This thinking shows gross incompetence by over estimating the value of these paki Abduls. It's like you are inventing reason after reason to stall in getting the job done.

We should look for some option besides surgical strikes, which would only play into Pak Army's hands to give them what they want.

What does the Paki army want? Please explain!

Possibilities:
1) counter-response thru TTP or Balochistan
2) reduce river water flow through dams
3) both

You forgot to add 'kadhi nindha' and finger wagging.

[Prem Kumar]

"This is what Pakistan wants & hence we must not do it" was the asinine policy/excuse given during MMS era for our pusillanimity

So, if a neighbor comes and hits our son, we shouldn't hit him back because "that is exactly what he wants"?

While Modi sarkar has done 10X more than MMS or any previous Govt, we have come up short on the proactive, disproportionate-response front. A lot more is expected from this Govt.

Like I said elsewhere, part of this is the hidden understanding that our Armed Forces, even against Pakistan, cannot control the escalation ladder. The shameful episode of being outranged by AMRAAMs & not having enough AEWs could be causing diffidence. But to be fair to our Forces too, we have since then acquired S-400s, Rafales/Meteors & some Astras. So, we should make a go of it!

Another reason is that each surgical strike in the past has been a long-preparation, calculated affair to inflict maximum casualties. It involved everyone from the PM down, including deception by the EAM etc. All this makes them costly, time-consuming & hence minimally used

We need to get out of this mindset. Yes, we can occasionally have these heavily-planned strikes that blows up a massive hole in the enemy's heart. But we should also have a continuous program of micro, mini, big & deluxe surgical strikes being constantly planned and executed all the time. Approval authority at various levels in the Armed/Special Forces establishment. By own troops, proxies, own-assets inside enemy-land etc

If there is intel of 50 terrorists at a launch-pad and we feel they can be taken out by an artillery barrage + shallow incursions for mop-up, it does not need the PM's permission. It can be pro-active and approved at lower levels in the hierarchy. Kill them there, so that we don't have to kill them here

[Aditya_V]

We should not focus on the cannon fodder terrorists, but infrastructure, electrical equipment, telecom equipment, roads, bridges, Paki miltary personal, fuel dumps, ammo dumps, missile storage facilities, live hitting of Paki army vehicles full of personal, cause maximum Pakistani army casualties and thinming of Paki civilian s, basically make 20-30 km of Paki side of loc a no man zone, , with artillery launched mines on thier side. So Paki terrorists should be targeted before they cross the LOC.

Easier said than done, but it is an either them or us policy.

[S_Madhukar]

Bakis are emboldened by the lizard on our LAC. Let’s just do the simple things that we know cause pain. The new Jernail of Pindi should also be made to stand cap in hand suing for peace. Gosh the script keeps repeating every time as we keep fiddling

[stephen]

Bakis are emboldened by the lizard on our LAC. Let’s just do the simple things that we know cause pain. The new Jernail of Pindi should also be made to stand cap in hand suing for peace. Gosh the script keeps repeating every time as we keep fiddling

And since the lizards are now also busy with their Taiwan issue, we should also make sure that the LoC is hot again. This is the only way the paki army hurts and the only way to make them bleed..both in terms of men and money. Ceasefire time has hopefully been used to strengthen our positions and carry out a lot of constructions.

[Pratyush]

The PRC is not busy with Taiwan. That is an impression created by the USA.

It's the modern day equivalent of the WMD from the early 00s.

The PRC lacks the fleet and sea and air lift capacity to even threaten to invade Taiwan.

We have to handle PRC on our own.

The forces in this particular operation got unlucky. Or were lured into a trap. On the basis of the specific inputs.

An identification of the root cause has to be done and SOP improved. There is not much else to it.

The G20 is summit is going to be interesting.

[AkshaySG]

The forces in this particular operation got unlucky. Or were lured into a trap. On the basis of the specific inputs.

An identification of the root cause has to be done and SOP improved. There is not much else to it.
.

Yes and No.

Obviously there are going to be important lessons to be learned from this incident which may shape future tactics and SOP however it doesn't really change the big picture much.

See when the opposition doesn't care about it's casualties and has an almost unlimited supply of abduls ready to sacrifice themselves for the cause then however better we get at these CI/CT Ops doesn't really change the game for Pak.

Like the IRA once said they only need to get lucky once while we need to be at 100% every time.

So unless we can decrease the actual insurgency by destroying all terror Infra on the near side of the LOC the crossings or putting the fear of strong retaliation in Pak Army it will just be more of the same.

[sanman]

You forgot to add 'kadhi nindha' and finger wagging.

Purpose of retaliation is to punish and deter, not to reward an aggressor.

If we respond in the way that they want, then we are rewarding them and not deterring them.

We have to find a response that will cause them distress, but which will not benefit them in the way that they want.
We have to think on this.

[Cyrano]

Pak is back to the strategy of needling and provoking India but staying under the Pulwama type threshold that will elicit a punitive response. They might be calculating that in G20 & SCO presidency year, India may not want to initiate any major cross-border action which would mean ending the LOC cease fire, and drop J&K from the venue list. India might just call that bluff.

[Prem Kumar]

Time to say b@lls to all of that and strike massively against Pakistan

Modi sarkar seems to create some self-inflicted problems like being in a rush to state that J&K is peaceful after Art 370 withdrawal. They'd be much better off telling everyone that Nehru and his devil-spawned, in collusion with Kashmiri jihadis have ethnically cleansed Pandits and it will take decades to restore its glory! That Art 370 scrapping is only one of many such steps/

Instead they claim that "all is well", which constrains them to act as if it is. They have to now answer questions from the same devil-spawn on why terror attacks continue to happen.

This is like "owning" the economic mess that UPA-1 & 2 created & promising solutions, without educating the public about the depth/nature of the mess (via say a whitepaper) and how it will take 3 terms just to undo the damage

I suspect this is the RSS "do, do, do" attitude without thinking, strategizing, positioning & media management

[RoyG]

Time to say b@lls to all of that and strike massively against Pakistan

Modi sarkar seems to create some self-inflicted problems like being in a rush to state that J&K is peaceful after Art 370 withdrawal. They'd be much better off telling everyone that Nehru and his devil-spawned, in collusion with Kashmiri jihadis have ethnically cleansed Pandits and it will take decades to restore its glory! That Art 370 scrapping is only one of many such steps/

Instead they claim that "all is well", which constrains them to act as if it is. They have to now answer questions from the same devil-spawn on why terror attacks continue to happen.

This is like "owning" the economic mess that UPA-1 & 2 created & promising solutions, without educating the public about the depth/nature of the mess (via say a whitepaper) and how it will take 3 terms just to undo the damage

I suspect this is the RSS "do, do, do" attitude without thinking, strategizing, positioning & media management

What kind of massive strike would you like?

[Jay]

Sanman ji, you and I know what Pakis are up to and how their civic-mil society is, and how the current transition is happening. We however seem to differ on understanding what unites them and how how far we should care about their unity.

To quote you,

then we are rewarding them and not deterring them...will cause them distress...not benefit them in the way that they want.

Who is "they" you are referring to here?

[Prem Kumar]

PAFF assholes have released a gopro video of the truck ambush, including the killing of an RR jawan

I don't want to drop it in here. But we should post about it on Twitter and tag the PM, RM etc. As gut-wrenching as it is, its important for those in power to watch it.

Response has to be massive and not just against the jihadis. We were careful even when we bumped off 300 yahoos in Balakot, that we didn't touch the PA. In retaliation they almost bombed our Brigade HQ.

I hope & pray that we create 10X the number of widows, orphans & grieving mothers in the PA, compared to what we suffered

[rrao]

when two ti mes paki ministers visited india,there were two major attackes on our soldiers in J&K , pulwama and rajouri...is this paki way of challenging indian defence establishment and terror outfit welcoming their masters. They did serial blasts in all cities like this earlier.

[RoyG]

PAFF assholes have released a gopro video of the truck ambush, including the killing of an RR jawan

I don't want to drop it in here. But we should post about it on Twitter and tag the PM, RM etc. As gut-wrenching as it is, its important for those in power to watch it.

Response has to be massive and not just against the jihadis. We were careful even when we bumped off 300 yahoos in Balakot, that we didn't touch the PA. In retaliation they almost bombed our Brigade HQ.

I hope & pray that we create 10X the number of widows, orphans & grieving mothers in the PA, compared to what we suffered

Can you post here

[Maria]

Shraddhanjali to our fallen braves, I won't advise any viewer discretion because I want our lurkers to see what our men are facing and what we have to face if it comes down to fighting in our cities:

https://twitter.com/SilentBKhan/status/ ... 6736091136

https://twitter.com/Erosthen/status/1655523131895824385

[RoyG]

Shraddhanjali to our fallen braves, I won't advise any viewer discretion because I want our lurkers to see what our men are facing and what they have to face:

https://twitter.com/SilentBKhan/status/ ... 6736091136

https://twitter.com/Erosthen/status/1655523131895824385

Thank you for posting. Retribution will come.

[Maria]

Shraddhanjali to our fallen braves, I won't advise any viewer discretion because I want our lurkers to see what our men are facing and what they have to face:

https://twitter.com/SilentBKhan/status/ ... 6736091136

https://twitter.com/Erosthen/status/1655523131895824385

Thank you for posting. Retribution will come.

Oborsho asbe

[Jay]

Thank you for posting. Retribution will come.

Oborsho asbe

Decades of fighting terror in the valley and we still send our jawans to patrol in a canvas topped light vehicle and wonder why we have causalities. The negligence and contempt with which our "leaders" both in civil and defense treat and equip our jawans is despicable and this outcome is not at all surprising. While this goes on, these same leaders attend fancy brochure review retreats to dream up a new light tank/fancy weapon requirements and merrily spend their careers without any achievements to show.

[Prem Kumar]

To rub salt into the wounds, serving and retired chiefs talk vacuously about 5th gen warfare and induct jet-packs

We have a ton of MPV options locally available but these aren't inducted in numbers. Waiting for some futuristic "F-MPV (Futuristic Mine Protected Vehicle")", I suppose

And enough of this Sadhbhavana crap. Appeasing Muslims is like feeding a crocodile, hoping that it will eat you last (to paraphrase Rajiv Malhotra). The very truck carrying Iftar supplies was destroyed & the informants were the Muslims for whom this Iftar was supposed to be for. Burn the village down, cleanse them and re-populate with Hindus. Rinse & repeat. We won't win the war in J&K (and in India) without massive social re-engineering

[Davidrock]

We need to make it part of SOP to use MPV for all transport in these areas.
Having said that, I am certain Army knows best what it is doing.

PA needs to pay for this, at any cost to us.

Even after Oct 21 attacks, there was no major response.

[sajaym]

https://twitter.com/SilentBKhan/status/ ... 6736091136

https://twitter.com/Erosthen/status/1655523131895824385

My message to the mofos who took the video..."all that shooting and bombing and video-taking looked great...but guess what?!...Kashmir is still with us...and those 5 men you killed? There are a billion more where they came from. We have more people than you have bullets. Video banate banate thak jaaoge saalon!"

[mody]

There seem to be some black ops type action going on in Pakiland over the past few months. A lot of the senior and old jihadi hands are getting bumped off. Just 2 days ago the head of the Khalistan Commando Force was bumped off along with his bodyguard, while on his morning jog.

Close to 10 old jihadi/terror commanders have been killed over the past 6 months. Some top terror handlers of the ISI should now be taken care off.

[Prem Kumar]

After Poonch-Rajouri Terror Attacks, 'Playing-It-Safe' Attitude Of Field Commanders In Focus; Army Plans To Increase Tenure In Counter Insurgency: Report

Well, this is all fine & dandy. But we are missing the forest for the trees if all we do is tighten the (N+1)th SOP of our troops. COIN is an exhausting, stressful activity, especially considering that you are amongst fellow citizens, any one of whom could be the enemy. No air support. Stone-pelters who will disrupt your operation/evacuation & you cannot even fire at them in self-defense. One mistake and you could be facing a court-martial.

The Amreekans make a big deal about PTSD while doing Iraq/Afghan duty even though they are not amongst their countrymen and have often shot-up entire weddings, called in air-support etc. Still, many can't take the stress.

Imagine what our folks go through!

So, making 1 more change is exactly the wrong idea. It gives the feeling of "doing something" and prevents people like HM & RM from taking a hard look and solving the problem at its source. They will send SF, kill the jihadis, do some kadi-ninda and declare victory.

We should be solving the (N+1)th SOP problem while dismembering Pakistan & when our troops face resistance in the Paki hinterland. That's where the battle needs to be fought, objectives accomplished & problems solved