Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

[pravula]

Not with S400 around…

[Cain Marko]

Right now, both the US and the Russians are in a tight spot and could use India's support (at least economically). Time to leverage this, drive a bargain, a hard bargain.

Will the US take the leap of faith and transfer India production of 414 + f35 (s400 be damned}.

Will the Russians turn over the know how for izd 30 engines (to be used for LCA + mki upgrade). India may buy some tu160 to sweeten the pot.

[Rakesh]

The off the shelf replacement one of the scientists quoted was RD-93 engine which is being produced in HAL. But we have to settle with less engine life.

RD-93 is used to power the JF-17.

Are you referring to the AL-31FP? HAL does a license production of that turbofan at Koraput.

We made the right decision going with F-414. The F414 has the same size and interfaces for mating as F404. If we had gone for EJ-200, then DRDO will sing the same song of ab initio design, new intakes and power delivery systems. You can see that Korea has done the same and how quick their program has been. Not to mention the Engine is price competitive. The Turks too have used F404 in Hurjet as well despite geopolitics due to cost. So mk2, AMCA and HLFT-42 will be more affordable especially once the Engine is made in India. And EJ-200 will not bring any Geo-political benefits either. Just look at Germany. The strongest nation in Europe. But had to pull out of Iran nuclear deal due to Trump and less said of the English the better despite their desi PM.

From a technical stand point, the F414 is the best turbofan for the Tejas. No contest there.

The issue lies with the US' political unreliability. At that stage, no matter how excellent the turbofan is...it matters little.

No turbofan = no plane.

The French are a different bunch. We can count on the French to co-develop a 110 kn engine. But for that MRFA 114 should go to Dassault and then Safran will do offset investment to develop the Engine. But we should never give up on our own efforts. Let us hope the Dry Kaveri Engine in production at Godrej meets its performance goals.

The French are very zealous about their crown jewels. They will not part with it that easily. The French are wily

Even if the 114 MRFA goes to France, India needs to cross every T and dot every I, when it comes to a JV for a 110kN turbofan.

[Rakesh]

Will the US take the leap of faith and transfer India production of 414 + f35 (s400 be damned}.

Unless Lockheed Martin figures out a work around (to have the S-400 and F-35 operate together, without the latter being compromised), no F-35 will come. If the F-35 is compromised, it will compromise the plane for the global F-35 community.

Will the Russians turn over the know how for izd 30 engines (to be used for LCA + mki upgrade). India may buy some tu160 to sweeten the pot.

It is at a time like this, that I wish the fable of a crystal ball that predicts the future is actually true.

One thing is certain, if there is no license production of the F414 in India, then GE can kiss the JV for the 110kN turbofan for AMCA goodbye.

[SRajesh]

^^Will a change of regime at GOTUS do any good
Republicans /Trumpwa are probably same?? or is it the Deep State calling the shots and denying ToT
The only issue : What if Emperor decide to invade Taiwan??
Will any of the opinions change

[Pratyush]

^^Will a change of regime at GOTUS do any good
Republicans /Trumpwa are probably same??

If Trump wins and is able to purge the DC establishment that his supporters are planing to achieve. Then the US can return to being the old transactional nation.

or is it the Deep State calling the shots and denying ToT
The only issue : What if Emperor decide to invade Taiwan??
Will any of the opinions change

The deep state of the US these days is incapable of finding it's own Musharraff. Even if you provide written instructions, a map and a flash light.

Xi, will not be invading Taiwan. Simply because he lacks the cross straight logistics capacity to do so in the near term.

However, the PRC has reached a place where it has to be chopped down to size soon. Or it becomes impossible for the US to manage them without Russians. ( Which is why I said that the US deep state these days cannot find it's own Musharraf ?) But even that is not really going make any difference.

[Pratyush]

The only way any western power will ever genuinely assist India in any way shape or form. Is when India has reached, through its own efforts 90% of where it needs to be.

Even then the assistance will be to insure that India is not able to achieve independence in that technology.

We want something done. We have to finish the bloody journey by our self. Every single step of the way.

If people on BRF find it difficult to understand. Then there is little hope for man on the street.

[Pratyush]

The services also need to get out of khadi gram udyog order mindset. They have to be educated, that, if you want x nos of platforms to be produced in a year. Then the order quantity has to be such. That capital investment becomes viable to create that capacity. Or else the desired quantity will never be produced in the timeframe desired by services.

[SRajesh]

Pratyushji
all nice to order X number but when critical components have to to either bought off the shelf or imported or screwdrivergiri how will that help with local MIC
Unless the forces are willing to order pure desi maal and we are able to acheive >90% local Tech this presisits no.

[Pratyush]

I am afraid that it's not quite correct.

1) Even if x% of the item is imported. The way it gets used by us makes it indigenous.

2) in order to develop alternative to an imported component. We need to understand what is the economy of scale.

What also needs to be understood is that no foreign OEM will ever purchase from an Indian supplier. If they have an option of sourcing from domestic supply chains.

So in order to develop domestic sources. The forces have start thinking in terms minimum order quantity and scale of production.

Because no one is ever going to invest in plant and machinery. That requires a minimum order of 100 items to be viable. For the production of just 40 items. Or even for 90 item's.

[BenG]

Are you referring to the AL-31FP? HAL does a license production of that turbofan at Koraput.

https://hal-india.co.in/Product_Details ... y=&CKey=30
Rd- 33 and Rd -33 mk engines are manufactured in HAL Koraput alongside AL-31. Navy Bought Mig-29 K and notorious short life of the Engines had always been a problem for Air-force, the economies of scale supported TOT and local manufacture as solution for both services. The engines are being made here since 2010 I think.

From a technical stand point, the F414 is the best turbofan for the Tejas. No contest there.

The issue lies with the US' political unreliability. At that stage, no matter how excellent the turbofan is...it matters little.

No turbofan = no plane.

The French are very zealous about their crown jewels. They will not part with it that easily. The French are wily

Even if the 114 MRFA goes to France, India needs to cross every T and dot every I, when it comes to a JV for a 110kN turbofan.

Denying F414 now would be akin to shooting themselves in the foot, USA will not do that. I too understand the US govt is using stalling tactics to get MRFA or some other commitment. If Govt of USA wants a confirmed order, give an order for first 20 F414 and 50 F404 for the next 50 Tejas mk1a that is in the pipeline. The offset payments from previous 99 and the new order should be enough to pay for setting up a joint venture with HAL . This additional order might be enough to convince the US govt to move ahead. India has leverage. But we seem to lack nuance on how to navigate the issues without blowing them out of proportion. USA will act like USA which has the technology. We need it. But should not act needy. The agreement for the 20 F414 engines and other F404 engines should be directly linked to F414 manufacture by a 50-50 joint venture company.

However we must parallelly develop Kaveri Engine to replace F404 when its engine is due for a replacement. That should be non-negotiable.

The French defied America and supplied Uranium to our reactor after 1974 nuclear tests. That reactor was built by the USA. They might ask for an arm and a leg. But till now they have been reliable enough in HAL-Saffran venture to manufacture Sakthi engines. I myself am not a proponent of MRFA. But that is what we have to entice every competitor to help in the growth of our own military industrial complex.

[Yagnasri]

Mango man rant alert.

Go for a large number of LCA Mk1A and make them under Kaveri. Underpowered. Yes. But ok to replace Jags and Mig 21s. More than sufficient to take care of pakis and the f16s once we put Astra2 and 3. No further defence imports from the US other than spares for those already purchased. Rafale order for IAF and IN and close that drama. AMCA and others shall be done, which will be made in Bharat with 100 manufacturing and IP. I am sure even EJ2000 and French will jump for that. New engine design etc, fully from Private sector partnership. No HAL.

Order a large number of Ghatak with Kaveri dry. Fill the skies with it. Everyone saying the future is unmanned, so why not think future? They can do all the roles of present fighters if designed well even if they are sub-sonic in speed.

This can be done. Look what we did in the case of Artillery guns under private sector leadership. Let us do the same for IAF, also.

[Tanaji]

This IDRW article seems to imply its just a clarification requested by US Gov and an assurance on IPR protection and approval is expected

https://idrw.org/f414-us-administration ... rom-india/

In the end there is no option other than the indigenous one. Which necessarily means that IAF must be ready to accept a 95% product as the first iteration

[drnayar]

This IDRW article seems to imply its just a clarification requested by US Gov and an assurance on IPR protection and approval is expected

https://idrw.org/f414-us-administration ... rom-india/

In the end there is no option other than the indigenous one. Which necessarily means that IAF must be ready to accept a 95% product as the first iteration

Indeed that's the only way forward. The Chinese despite their humongous resources did the same even after buying stealing engine tech , and now flies decently rated fighter engines ..no half way measures here.

[Cain Marko]

This IDRW article seems to imply its just a clarification requested by US Gov and an assurance on IPR protection and approval is expected

https://idrw.org/f414-us-administration ... rom-india/

In the end there is no option other than the indigenous one. Which necessarily means that IAF must be ready to accept a 95% product as the first iteration

That is true. But would you say that engine on a a fighter is only 5% of the product? If the IAF has been reluctant to get US mrca to avoid being at the mercy of supplier whimsy, maybe that applies to LCA too?

[BenG]

That is true. But would you say that engine on a a fighter is only 5% of the product? If the IAF has been reluctant to get US mrca to avoid being at the mercy of supplier whimsy, maybe that applies to LCA too?

IAF may have its concerns about US as a supplier. But that is not its purview. As Air Chiefs have repeatedly stated, they should fight with what they have.

IAF was willing to entertain Honeywell to re-engine jaguar. They want more Apaches. They will jump directly into the cockpit if F-35 is ordered. So engine is not the problem. It is the complete platform which will have intrusive inspections.

[Prem Kumar]

GE/GOTUS did not say they will not sell F-414 engines to India. They are only reluctant to allow us to manufacture them locally.

Cut the knot between the two. Just buy the damn engines outright. Local manufacturing will do zilch to accelerate Kaveri + the cost will be the more (given that the offset costs will eventually be borne by the buyer)

And yes, be willing to spend $10 Billion on own turbofan project on a mission mode. I hope some babu/lobbyist is not hoodwinking RM & PM by saying that Atmanirbhar in Turbofans can be achieved by local manufacturing of GE 414.

[vera_k]

I suspect the local manufacturing is purely a cost cutting exercise. How different this would be from HAL making LM2500 remains to be seen.

[drnayar]

This IDRW article seems to imply its just a clarification requested by US Gov and an assurance on IPR protection and approval is expected

https://idrw.org/f414-us-administration ... rom-india/

In the end there is no option other than the indigenous one. Which necessarily means that IAF must be ready to accept a 95% product as the first iteration

That is true. But would you say that engine on a a fighter is only 5% of the product? If the IAF has been reluctant to get US mrca to avoid being at the mercy of supplier whimsy, maybe that applies to LCA too?

He means accepting a lower powered engine, kaveri with afterburner. Once kaveri is in production , the initial problems ironed out successive iteration will get it to the goal.

[SRajesh]

Nayarji
That's the crux of the problem
Tejas with Kaveri we will be back to the same old : 'Three Legged Chetah' business
and it will in the 20-30 aliquots of ordering like a Israeli mastered drip-feed agriculture

[drnayar]

Nayarji
That's the crux of the problem
Tejas with Kaveri we will be back to the same old : 'Three Legged Chetah' business
and it will in the 20-30 aliquots of ordering like a Israeli mastered drip-feed agriculture

If i remember right , jet engine tech program is now directly under the PMO. Pretty sure they would have gamed "tech transfers" from US and UK. France seems to be the most likely winner.
There is that proposal for a fully? funded Jet engine factory with production tech from the foreign tie up. No news or updates regarding this in open media. Maybe that is good !!

[yensoy]

I think an unproven/underpowered engine will be better in a two engine jet than a single engine jet. Not only for safety, but also for range/power where the single engine aircraft is unforgiving compared to the two engine jet.

The working assumption here is that the three legged cheetah will eventually grow four legs as the design kinks are worked out, optimized and refined over time.

[sanjayc]

GE/GOTUS did not say they will not sell F-414 engines to India. They are only reluctant to allow us to manufacture them locally.

Cut the knot between the two. Just buy the damn engines outright. Local manufacturing will do zilch to accelerate Kaveri + the cost will be the more (given that the offset costs will eventually be borne by the buyer)

And yes, be willing to spend $10 Billion on own turbofan project on a mission mode. I hope some babu/lobbyist is not hoodwinking RM & PM by saying that Atmanirbhar in Turbofans can be achieved by local manufacturing of GE 414.

I think the idea is to get an insight into production steps and assembly line for building the engine, rather than any kind of IP or trade secrets. That will help set up the manufacturing plant for Kaveri.

[Cyrano]

I think the idea is to get an insight into production steps and assembly line for building the engine, rather than any kind of IP or trade secrets.

Is that such a holy grail? Aren't we just fighting on baby names even before the baby is conceived?

[Rakesh]

https://hal-india.co.in/Product_Details ... y=&CKey=30
Rd- 33 and Rd -33 mk engines are manufactured in HAL Koraput alongside AL-31. Navy Bought Mig-29 K and notorious short life of the Engines had always been a problem for Air-force, the economies of scale supported TOT and local manufacture as solution for both services. The engines are being made here since 2010 I think.

RD-33 yes, but not RD-93. The latter is a later spin-off of the RD-33.

But the same holds true. Installing any other turbofan at this stage in the game will only delay the program.

How feasible is it logistically to operate the same aircraft with different turbofans? Two Squadrons (No 45 and No 18) with GE F404 turbofans and the remaining squadrons with RD-33 turbofans? Same aircraft, different maintenance requirements. This is the best way to kill a program, with a service that has a proven bias towards phoren maal and views local maal as not being up to par.

Denying F414 now would be akin to shooting themselves in the foot, USA will not do that. I too understand the US govt is using stalling tactics to get MRFA or some other commitment. If Govt of USA wants a confirmed order, give an order for first 20 F414 and 50 F404 for the next 50 Tejas mk1a that is in the pipeline.

The ball lies in our court and not in theirs. So if we want further F404/F414 turbofans, we will have to show commitment (i.e. MRFA and MRCBF).

So do we want to continue purse the path of license production of the F414 or do we want to get F414s off the shelf? The former will give us what we want, but will likely end up with a US F-teen fighter (which Air HQ does not want). The latter will allow the program to continue, but it will be the more expensive route in the long run. The main reason why we are insisting on a local assembly factory is to control some portion of the supply chain. If that is threatened, the program is at risk i.e. delays. This delay only strengthens the case for the 114 MRFA, if not more.

The offset payments from previous 99 and the new order should be enough to pay for setting up a joint venture with HAL . This additional order might be enough to convince the US govt to move ahead. India has leverage. But we seem to lack nuance on how to navigate the issues without blowing them out of proportion. USA will act like USA which has the technology. We need it. But should not act needy. The agreement for the 20 F414 engines and other F404 engines should be directly linked to F414 manufacture by a 50-50 joint venture company.

The deal for 99 F404-IN20 turbofans was signed in 2021 ---> https://www.geaerospace.com/press-relea ... ght-combat

Do we know what offsets are involved from this deal? After a deal is signed, I doubt we can go back and extract any "new" offset payments from them. So whatever offset payments - if any - that were negotiated from this deal, will be executed as per the agreement.

Can you please advise what this 20 F414 turbofans agreement is? We are negotiating with the US Govt for a license production of the F414 in India and the number will be well above 100.

The reality is that any additional Mk1As require the F404 turbofan and Mk2s require the F414 turbofan. These aircraft are built around those turbofans. It not about acting needy, but being practical. And this is a reality that the US Govt is well aware of and they are now asking for their pound of flesh.

However we must parallelly develop Kaveri Engine to replace F404 when its engine is due for a replacement. That should be non-negotiable.

We are not even willing to get some FTBs to develop a turbofan. Our bean counters will not budge on this. Good luck parallelly developing our own turbofan with not even having the foundation in place.

But we will waste billions on phoren aircraft (MRFA, MRCBF, etc) and hope that will somehow spur our own development.

Cost of MRFA + MRCBF versus funding engine development. Where are our priorities?

The French defied America and supplied Uranium to our reactor after 1974 nuclear tests. That reactor was built by the USA. They might ask for an arm and a leg. But till now they have been reliable enough in HAL-Safran venture to manufacture Sakthi engines. I myself am not a proponent of MRFA. But that is what we have to entice every competitor to help in the growth of our own military industrial complex.

A clean sheet design to place aboard the Tejas Mk2 will delay the entry of the aircraft. A brand new engine will take a decade to develop, test and certify at minimum. Perhaps Air HQ may take that route, in favour of additional phoren MRFAs.

[konaseema]

Nothing gets executed on time in India especially in the defense industry. If we get that, then we won't have these frequent heartburns. That said, I think US may try to delay the project just a little bit more. But eventually will provide the engines that we need. On the domestic front, we should create a consortium that first works on a F404 replacement engine (call it anything else but Kaveri) with a mandate to provide ~ 5 kN more power than F404 (both Dry & Wet). Invest whatever $$ billions it takes to get that right by the end of this decade, which will cater to be the replacement engine for F404 on Tejas Mk1 / Mk1A. We can then progress to the creation of the F414 replacement and it should be ready to cater to the Tejas Mk2 / TEDBF engine replacement cycle. At this point, we will be shooting ourselves on our foot repeatedly, if we keep insisting on ToT or IP rights as no nation will partner or give away this niche technology. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try, but have a deadline for that and move on to a plan B.

[ramana]

This IDRW article seems to imply its just a clarification requested by US Gov and an assurance on IPR protection and approval is expected

https://idrw.org/f414-us-administration ... rom-india/

In the end, there is no option other than the indigenous one. This necessarily means that IAF must be ready to accept a 95% product as the first iteration

Is that a real name "Raunak Kunde" or a pseudonym?
Enqyoob would ROFL.

BTW it was US President who wanted GOI to consider GE engines also along with the SAFRAN and RR offers.
So what this new bokwas? Is IDRF stirring the pot for their own reasons?
They copy news from all over the media and put a copyright on the plagiarised news.

For example one of our members wrote some BS and promptly IDRF picked it up and put a copy left on it.

[Roop]

Nothing gets executed on time in India especially in the defense industry.

I have news for you: nothing gets done on time in the defence industry anywhere in the world. I know this because I have worked many years in this industry (in a previous job many years ago) for a high-faluting big-name US defense contractor and everyone has this problem. It is one thing if you are doing a build-to-print (as Dassault is currently doing with the Rafale), but if you are doing anything involving original development from scratch (which is what DRDO / HAL et. al. are doing) it won't get done on time, for the simple reason that you can never predict the unforeseen problems that will crop up.

This is true all over the world.

[maitya]

There are limited paths India can take now;

* Import F414 turbofans directly from the US. More expensive route, but that is what is available. Your leverage is entirely in the US' hands.
.....
* Get a clean sheet turbofan design (minimum a decade) and install it on the Tejas Mk2. Along this path, get a pair of used A330s/B747s and use them as FTBs. Invest in further improving the Kaveri. Maitya-ji should chime in here, as he is the expert.
.....

....

Paging You Saar

Rakesh-ji, not an expert or anything, by any stretch of imagination ... more of somewhat of an careful observer, maybe.

And based on that, given the attitude (wrt funding, encouragement etc) on display, wrt funding/support etc, we are more or less destined for hand-me-down foreign turbofans - and if that is so, then I firmly believe we should go for the best there is i.e. GE F404 and the F414 variants.

Preferably direct imports, but if some sort of screwdrivergiri can be arranged, nothing like it - as it will provide the netas to further sloganeering and tom-tom their achievements to aam junta etc. And as we all know, nothing is going to come about wrt indigenisation/atmanirbharata for turbofan design and development initiatives - but at least it will de-risk the parent programs, which are equally vital.

Now, if that's risky from platform availability in future combat situations etc, well, given our attitude on display wrt funding/supporting indigenous turbofan development initiatives, I don't think we deserve anything better. Isn't it?

I mean K9 (51KN/75KN at 1235Kg - suboptimal yes but brilliant for an ab-initio initiative) has been ready for almost an decade now - however, no initiative whatsoever towards making it fly on a LCA prototype and baseline the design.

Material tech and other component level tech improvements (eg HPC blisks, CMC based LPT, etc, etc) can always be brought in by and by, but getting the design baselined thru 1000s of hours of flight-testing, over the entire envelope, is absolutely vital.

Without the design baselined, there's not much of a hope of getting any follow-on improved versions inline quickly.

Ditto wrt getting a FTB created.

etc, etc.

And we dream of getting into a equal-IP-sharing-mode for 5th gen turbofan development etc - I mean there must be some limit of Mungerilal-Ke-Haseen-Sapne

Anyway, coming back to where we are wrt the Kaveri program is concerned, maybe this post of mine provides a good summary. Also, do note the public confirmation by the-very-recent-ex-GTRE-director:

all technology of a 4-gen turbofan exists indigenously - and it's a matter of funding, that's all.

So, let's see what we have got in the currently funded program - a 48.5KN dry thrust version (for UCAV application - and at 1180Kg).

1) Firstly, it has got, a brand-new Fan focusing more on high inlet pressure distortion tolerance and surge margin etc, due to serpentine intake of the platform etc.
It has got the same Fan PR (of 3.4:1) and same mass-flow rate (78Kg/s).
Now for std 4/4+ fighter applications with conventional air intake etc, the same fan can be tweaked go for 4:1 (for example) Fan PR.

2) Then there are reports of developing an "improved" HPC with higher stage-PR (current 6.4:1) - ostensibly to augment the thrust levels of the dry-thrust-variant to a 53-54KN (currently designed 46KN, achieved 48.5KN in Russia).
Sample this - roughly, a 4.5-5% improvement in Stage-PR (for a 6-stage HPC) will result ~27% increase in OPR (with same isentropic efficiency).

Normally higher Stage-PR can be achieved by improving the aerodynamic design of compressor blades and, to a smaller extent, by optimizing the compressor inlet and outlet geometry.

One example of improvement of aerodynamic design of compressor blades is improving the end-wall countouring (to prevent secondary losses, better distribution of Mach number across blade surface.

Another method is by increasing the rotational speed of the compressor-stages - can be achieved by going for lighter stages (say via blisk or even maybe blings) etc.

(Other methods like Increasing the number of compressor stages, Increasing the inlet air temperature etc are far more complex and may involve large redesign of the Core itself)

If successful, this will again be introduced to other versions/variants as well.

3) Then, also the baseline Kaveri did achieve 81KN wet thrust (with afterburner) but was unable to sustain it for longer duration etc (73-75KN sustained).
RCA supposedly revealed,

a) this is mainly due to certain shortcomings in the hot-section of the core (Kabini) - and one of the goals of the dry-thrust variant program (core being same) is to address those very shortcomings.

b) inadequate cooling of the A/B components, most probably, the exhaust nozzle flaps. Wrt which, there were reports that Bilayer TBC has been successfully tested on the exhaust nozzle flaps on "another" in-use-military-turbofan. So, this issue may also have been mitigated by now.

===============================================
A point of digression wrt Pts 1 and 2 above:
Increasing the Fan PR and the HPC Stage-PRs would have a dramatic impact on the OPR of Kaveri (or any of its variants) - OPR is currently at a very modest levels of 21.5:1 (F404-IN20 et all achieves 27.5:1 etc).
And as we all know (pls refer to the gyan thread), increase in OPR will definitely augment the dry thrust levels - but upto a point, beyond which the thrust levels will starts falling, if TeT is also not proportionately increased.
================================================

So, coming back to the topic, if GTRE et all, without any specific funding, is trying to somehow get a 58-60KN/88-90KN Kaveri variant (K10?), based on these "improvements" being achieved via the funded dry-thrust-variant program, then IMVHO it's not that much of a far-fetched idea/concept.
Any other serious/self-respecting nation would have gone all-out wrt budget-allocation/support of such programs independently, but then that's us (and our MoD's army of baboons) - so be it.

Of course then there are further dreams of a K11 program - another variant wrt 67KN/98KN at 950Kg etc. Which of course will require a complete redesign of the Core (read higher TeT for HPT, Bilayer TBC on rotors, better efficient HPC and Fan, CMC based LPT, higher mass-flow rate etc etc etc), and also almost every aspect of the turbofan itself.

==================================================
But before I end for today, pls bear with me with another point of digression:
Do note, achieving a higher Fan PR would definitely going to increase the mass-flow rate - which, though good news from a theoretical thrust increment pov etc, will require significant re-design (re-testing and thus years of re-validations) of the core itself.

One way to circumvent it of course is, increase the BPR sufficiently so that mass-flow thru the core remains same – which would mean, higher mass-flow thru bypass, and that itself will further augment the dry thrust levels. Of course, this will require the LPT to be improved so that this additional mass of bypass air-mass is further accelerated, increasing the dry-thrust levels.
And LPT improvements can be via maybe by making it lighter via CMC route or maybe by improving its efficiency via further redesign etc etc etc – so, that the torque available to the Fan is higher (so higher rotational speed).
==================================================

[ajay_hk]

I don't know how true this article is! Looks like we've tied ourselves in some sort of a knot here! Extremely disappointed, angry and sad at the same time with all the parties involved in decision making. This is bound to have an impact on AMCA Phase 1 as well!

All eyes on Modi ji's US visit in June but not keeping any hopes. I don't know if its good to just end this TOT tamasha and just buy off the shelf.

Tejas Mk 2 languishes amid lack of funds

India's Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) officially approved the project on 1 September 2022 for development, flight testing, and certification. Janes previously reported that funding of INR66.17 billion (USD809.17 million) was sanctioned.

However, Janes has learnt that the Indian government included a clause in the funding approval stipulating that this money would be released only after the US government approved a 100% transfer of engine technology to India. The clause is related to India's 2010 selection of the General Electric (GE) F414-INS6 engine to power the Mk 2, according to previous disclosures by GE and India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) – an agency under the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

“The clause states that the money will be released if the US government agrees to transfer the technology of the F414-INS6 engine,” a source told Janes .

full article is behind paywall

[Pratyush]

Why do you want to do this?

It's not like the MK2 will be Built in numbers greater than 200 units. Why limit yourself this way.

What happens if the US refuses to transfer any technology to India? Or even delay it by 3 years.

India will not even build the prototype?

[vera_k]

If the engine is not available, another engine has to be used. Seems logical to wait then. Also wonder if this isn't the result of someone wanting to push the local jet engine program forward.

[Cain Marko]

I don't know how true this article is! Looks like we've tied ourselves in some sort of a knot here! Extremely disappointed, angry and sad at the same time with all the parties involved in decision making. This is bound to have an impact on AMCA Phase 1 as well!

.

My guess is that there's a huge trust deficit between the IAF + GOI and Gotus. I'm not sure how 100% tot will help out or what's even meant by this. If goi expects ge and Gotus to just relinquish all secret sauce on the 414, that's ridiculous. I'm thinking the IAF is playing this with an eye on 114+ rafale knowing fully well that deep tot is never going to happen.

[nash]

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... k-of-funds

“The clause states that the money will be released if the US government agrees to transfer the technology of the F414-INS6 engine,” a source told Janes .

It doesn't make any sense at first, then you may think of the most probable reason of reliability of engine, but why now why not 15 years back.

IAF took anyway about a decade to approve the CDR, considering Rafale as their prefer choice they could had selected the M-88 4 in 2008-10 and go for rework.

[Prem Kumar]

Take whatever Janes claims with a pinch of salt. They made all sorts of claims after Aero India too

Overall, this ToT business is bakwas. No one will part with their crown jewels and AL-31's manufacture by HAL after a deep tech transfer amounted to zilch in terms of our ability to bring Kaveri to fruition

Hope we don't make the mistake that we did with Tejas-Mk1, by unnecessarily tying it with Kaveri readiness. Just buy the damn engines outright. Uncle Sam will be quite happy to sell 200 engines to us

[KrishnaK]

The reality is that any additional Mk1As require the F404 turbofan and Mk2s require the F414 turbofan. These aircraft are built around those turbofans. It not about acting needy, but being practical. And this is a reality that the US Govt is well aware of and they are now asking for their pound of flesh.

Exactly what is this pound of flesh ?

[BenG]

Can you please advise what this 20 F414 turbofans agreement is?

When we are planning to run 3 fighter jet programs on F414, we should have planned to buy at least 20 Engines outright. This will help with spares as well as against supply chain disruptions like Covid or shooting ourselves in the foot like the clause we have in mk2 for F414 local manufacture. We never planned to manufacture Tejas mk1 with F404. It was always Kaveri which was supposed to be the intended turbofan. But we imported quite a few F404-GE-F2J3 immediately after US govt lifted sanctions. So I don't see why F414 local manufacture should hold up an order for 20 F414 for mk2 and AMCA project prototypes.

I mean K9 (51KN/75KN at 1235Kg - suboptimal yes but brilliant for an ab-initio initiative) has been ready for almost an decade now - however, no initiative whatsoever towards making it fly on a LCA prototype and baseline the design.

Wouldn't it be optimal to test it on a twin-engine platform like Mig-29 in Russia?
Tejas is single-engined and crashing it could put a huge liability on the program balance sheet. Mig-29 is a proven airframe. Russians have helped with the testing so far. Mikoyan can definitely use the funds too. We can't wait forever for all our own infrastructure to be ready.

As we all know the Dry-Kaveri (for UCAV application) was based on baseline K9 version but with a new redesigned Fan.
- Godrej was chosen to develop all the modules for 7-8 test engines required for certification of this engine.

let's see what we have got in the currently funded program - a 48.5KN dry thrust version (for UCAV application - and at 1180Kg).

Excuse me if I'm wrong. But HAL is already developing HTFE-25 for CATS warrior. What application does dry K-9 have use for?

Uprating this Dry Kaveri engine and adding an A/B to it to produce a 60KN/90KN version - enough for Mk1/1A versions.
In comparision, F404-IN20 version produces 54KN/85KN.

This would be a dream come true. However, We need to fit the engine in the same footprint that F404 IN20 occupies in Tejas now. Is that possible now?

“The clause states that the money will be released if the US government agrees to transfer the technology of the F414-INS6 engine,” a source told Janes .

Whoever was responsible for this clause should be tagged by counter intelligence and investigated whether he is leaking info on the mk2 discussions to US intelligence or any of our friendly neighbors.

HLFT-42 could be the better plane
https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ha ... 35.article
"HAL states that the advanced trainer concept will feature a fly-by-wire control system, an active electronically scanned array radar, an electronic warfare suite and a nose-mounted infrared search and track sensor."

If Tejas mk2 is not even started yet, then HLFT-42 will be the better option for IAF. The unit cost will be cheaper. HAL can fund HLFT-42 development with its own funds. IAF funds can be focused on AMCA(I hope we have not put any TOT clauses). With the clause of GE F414 local manufacture and general elections next year, I doubt any decisions will be made.

Hurjet took flight within 6 years of project being commenced by TAI. If HAL can do a TAI, then it should take less time since they already have Tejas mk1 manufacturing and detailed designs already. The 108 Tejas mk2 is best split between Tejas mk1a and IOC versions of HLFT-42.

[Cain Marko]

I don't see why we can't consider kaveri for tedbf. This bird needs priority.

[drnayar]

I suspect the local manufacturing is purely a cost cutting exercise. How different this would be from HAL making LM2500 remains to be seen.

i dont think it is , license manufactured from raw materials, the russian engines are more expensive than same stuff imported, but it does give a certain degree of independence.,

[ramana]

Ben, Already 12 F414 were bought for Mk2 and other aircraft development. Hence the confidence in the programs. Only bug is the IAF keeps addiinng quietly more payload and ADA meekly accepts. We get to know when program is replanned. And cussing restarts.
ADA fear is they don't get the program funded unless they keep accepting changes.
IAF keeps adding changes to delay program.
Ukraine war has put a kabash as no one has the spare capacity to cater to IAF imports.