India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Jun 2023 08:45

Amber G. wrote:
arshyam wrote: Genuine Q: what would have us (BRF) do so that this "sanity" is returned? I'm labelling this as a genuine question since I'm not quite sure how to respond to standard diplomatic protocol followed by the US. <snip>
Assuming the Q is genuine:
- Why not cover the news items as honestly like our PM, or EAM's or POTUS treats. (Hint: The modi visit is NOT some routine visit - first of its kind, per both by Biden and Modi.

- Stop attacking poters like me (personally) if their views differ from you. Show more dignity that a typical Rana Ayyub or Rahul Gandhi.

- Stop bringing really dumb talking point (Garcetti this..Biden that ... (. 1962 China that... Hint: Just like there is little actual evidence/honesty about the 'minorities/democracy' in danger in Modi's India' by Rana Ayuub's et all but it does not prevent them to repeat Gujarat this and that, and quote each other ... after a while brfites repeating the same stale points (especially those which are close to zero truth) become tiring. (Hint: GoI does NOT think the ambassador is 'bin bulaya Mehman and must resign)

Fair enough, but Garcetti has been prepping the ground about civil society and the like, which is far beyond the remit of any ambassador. At least when talking publicly. An ambassador is an official representative of his/her country, so their words will have to be taken as such. When such a representative talks about bypassing official channels, the other side will naturally look at it with suspicion. So to ask that Garcetti-uvacha be ignored is impractical, and a disservice to what this board stands for.

Beyond that, news about Indo-US relations do get shared here, but many of us "beware of Greeks bearing gifts", hence the mild suspicion of American actions. Rather than blaming ourselves for it, it's for Americans (including those on this board) to reflect upon why that is so - a fellow democracy with no direct conflict with the US, and generally amicable to everyone, yet she views the American govt with suspicion by default, 30 years after the Cold War ended. And no, NaMo and JS may show only bonhomie in public, but the suspicions remain.

Lastly, about the personal attacks: yes, they have no place in a serious discussion. I hope we can move beyond this. Since I'm not part of this issue, I have nothing further to add. But one request to you as well: kindly tone down your mild condescesion toward other, presumably "non-scientific" folks. Such folks are also individually accomplished in their own ways, and naturally won't take such positioning kindly. Especially when they engage with due respect:

Amber G. wrote:
arshyam wrote: Genuine Q: <snip>
Assuming the Q is genuine: <snip>

Avoiding posturing like the above would prevent us from getting into unproductive sidebars as we see so often on this thread, and elevate the quality of discussion. Since this itself is a sidebar, it's my last on the topic.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Jun 2023 08:57

sohamn wrote:Also, increasingly I am seeing that BRFites are alluding to things like China is is not our real enemy and rather it is US which wants India to fight China and it is US who is our real enemy. This is the same line many anti nationals took during the previous india china war. I hope Mods take note of that.

USA is more of a friend and less of an ally. We will work together when our interests converge, and disagree when it doesn't. With China it does, with Russia it doesn't.
China = enemy number 1 and has been the number 1 enemy since decades now.

I don't think anyone claimed China is not our enemy. But certainly no one (except a few) claimed the "USA is our friend". Enemy number 2? Perhaps. There is a very good reason for that, see below:

“It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal.” ― Henry Kissinger

So is this what you want for India?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 15 Jun 2023 09:51

To quote someone, "Everyone who is not us is the enemy". We have even Nepal trying to backstab us at times. SL does it once in a while. BD sends its millions illegally and pretends that it is our friend, and if the opposition party wins there, it will act like another pakiland openly. So let us not have who is not our enemy.

As far as China goes, it is our enemy. Period. Mainly an external enemy with a minor role as an internal enemy. The US is the primary internal enemy with a minor role as an external enemy. That is how things are today. It all may change in future.

Through its intel agencies, NGOs, and chamchas, the US is the biggest supporter of the BIF. Just because there is a dinner with a demented older man, it will not change its efforts to destroy us. We may be ok if our relationship is only transactional and we do not delude ourselves about our "friendship" with the US.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Jun 2023 11:09

Latest news is that Indian Navy will get 26 F18s. Plus sea guardians. Plus 414s.
Source: Maj Gaurav Arya https://youtube.com/watchv=MdC1zFZu11M&feature=share9

Heh. Not enough. How about a FREE CV to go with the F18s?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 Jun 2023 13:42

Cain Marko wrote:Latest news is that Indian Navy will get 26 F18s. Plus sea guardians. Plus 414s.
Source: Maj Gaurav Arya https://youtube.com/watchv=MdC1zFZu11M&feature=share9

Heh. Not enough. How about a FREE CV to go with the F18s?

Careful what you ask for.. we rather pay for a good product then get a 'free' one which we have to then refurbish extensively

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Jun 2023 14:33

Personally, I will be happy for the Indian Navy to make up it's mind and pull the trigger on a full size carrier with 4*190 mw reactor and 4 steam catapult.

This is doable with the current capabilities of the Indian industry.

Build 4 such ships over 20 years. While a more powerful reactor and EMALS gets designed and certified for the Indian Navy.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Jun 2023 14:35

However, I will be open to the idea of India taking consultations from the EB for Indian attack submarine and it's making it as silent as current generation of US submarine.

While India focused on other parts of the submarine.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 Jun 2023 14:41

^^ +1 on the full size carriers
^ That would be like expecting LockMart to share F35 stealth tech

RaviB · Post by **RaviB** » 15 Jun 2023 15:17

There is no question that China is our primary enemy over the next 20 years. USA can be the competitor from 2040 on and perhaps a counterpole from 2050 on.

There should not be any aversion on our part to have a cautious friendship with US, to help us counter China in the meantime.
There is a lot to learn from China itself. They promised friendship and a way to balance USSR to the Americans and implicitly a transition to democracy during the Nixon era. They profited heavily from it and now have become a near peer adversary. China had a lot more reason to distrust the USA back then (compared to India right now) but it was a strategically brilliant manoeuvre that has paid off great dividends for them. They would never have become near-peer without the pretense of harmless friendliness. There is no reason for us to not throw money and friendly words at USA and even have carefully calibrated democracy theater and such, while keeping the long term in sight.

Overt friendliness now, combined with a healthy distrust will get us quicker to the goal of becoming an equal of the US in the 2050-70 timeline. In the meantime it will help us balance China until demographic collapse removes them from the picture around 2050.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 15 Jun 2023 15:43

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Jun 2023 16:27

Manish_P wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Latest news is that Indian Navy will get 26 F18s. Plus sea guardians. Plus 414s.
Source: Maj Gaurav Arya https://youtube.com/watchv=MdC1zFZu11M&feature=share9

Heh. Not enough. How about a FREE CV to go with the F18s?
Careful what you ask for.. we rather pay for a good product then get a 'free' one which we have to then refurbish extensively

I was being a little tongue in cheek but hasn't the ex. Trenton served IN well enough?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 Jun 2023 17:38

^ I was not referring to the INS Jalashwa. She didn't come for free nor made any claims to that effect.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 15 Jun 2023 18:00

Is America's interest in this new initiative mainly based on creating a new base for joint defense production & supply chain?

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 15 Jun 2023 19:00

Going by the way things are being phrased by NSAs, EAM, AmbUS ityadi log, I'm inclined to think the US proposed the usual state department vision of Rules Based Order and Security Umbrella yadda yadda and DoD's bag of wares to sell was spread on the ground that India can buy to join the club.

Modi's response to that (and detailed by Doval, Dr SJ, RS...) I'm guessing, was that both countries should go after realising a much bigger, broader vision, one that might have initially surprised the US but they soon came to realise that it's the only way forward for both sides.

I can't see the full contours of what that vision exactly is, but I get a feeling the Reaper drone purchases and GE engines etc are small (though important) fry.

That's why these purchases have been more or less announced itsy bitsy by various official sources, so they won't be the main news items during Modi's visit. The real big move forward will be something else, and I get the feeling it will be quite bold and far reaching.

We'll get to know soon though...

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 15 Jun 2023 19:22

RaviB, good points. However I would add there are many ways to negotiate: being nice and agreeing to provide neo-slave labour to a post-colonial globalist west is one way. But crying in a corner about past grievances of colonialists and acting coy is another strategic position to make the big table guys to laboriously pull the table to that corner. If we learn any lesson from BLM, it is that the idiots who are pushing for Rules based Order also has a huge domestic votebank for reparations but no appetite for big wars of their own.

BRF don’t have a lot of debate about the nitti-gritties of FTAs that GoI signs or is keen to sign. China was deft in that department and did well for itself at WTO. THAT is where we are going to get shafted and US will be a beast to negotiate with, if we go by Piyush Goyal’s lament about South Koreans shafting us when sourcing components.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Jun 2023 20:45

Cyrano wrote:Modi's response to that (and detailed by Doval, Dr SJ, RS...) I'm guessing, was that both countries should go after realising a much bigger, broader vision, one that might have initially surprised the US but they soon came to realise that it's the only way forward for both sides.

I can't see the full contours of what that vision exactly is, but I get a feeling the Reaper drone purchases and GE engines etc are small (though important) fry.

If you recall, Jaswant Singh had a dozen meetings with Strobe Talbott in various spots of the world after 1998 as India insisted that the US didn't appreciate India's compulsions and it was time for them to do so. That was a very broad discussion which ultimately resulted in the 123 Agreement. Of course, there was so much angst against the deal, not only by the Communists, but even by others but that agreement has been overall excellent for us.

I certainly agree with RaviB's assessment and I have been saying for quite some time here that we have to look at both 19th century Japan & 20th century China and have confidence in our diplomacy that we cannot go asunder just because of increasing proximity with the US. Let's not conflate the US with China because the latter is our only existential threat. We will cross the bridge with the US later if we have to but that certainly is far away. It looks to me at times that people want us to take on both the US and China at the same time, for no reason at all.

While we will not forget history, we cannot remain forever shackled by those memories. We never had as bad and an ideologically acrimonious relation with the US as China. We never fought them in a war losing a quarter million men, as China did. Our equation with the US is very different.

We have to insist with the US that its dealings with Pakistan will have to be very different from now onwards, being very mindful of Indian sensitivities. At the same time, there will have to be reasonable 'give and take' and we have to be confident that GoI will handle those situations responsibly.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Jun 2023 21:10

Cain Marko wrote:
Manish_P wrote:
Careful what you ask for.. we rather pay for a good product then get a 'free' one which we have to then refurbish extensively
I was being a little tongue in cheek but hasn't the ex. Trenton served IN well enough?

the trenton was commissioned in August 1968 and she is fifty years old now.

What great service can anyone expect from her.....

must be a great and expensive chore, just to keep her running

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 15 Jun 2023 21:13

I think he is hinting at vikramaditya which was Admiral Goroshkov offered free to be refurbished

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Jun 2023 21:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfZRdELm7j8

Why India will be a close friend but not an ally of US, as Modi goes to America : Ashley

Tata Chair for Strategic Affairs and a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Ashley J. Tellis tells Senior Consulting Editor Jyoti Malhotra that while India-US relations are on the rise, why India is unlikely to offer military support to the US military agendas or part ways with Russia and why US needs to understand India's strategic concerns better and seek a partnership.

and tellis's article in foreign affairs journal

America’s Bad Bet on India

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 15 Jun 2023 21:45

We can continue doing Hindi-Amreki bhai bhai and buy a few billions dollar equipment now and then,
as long as Khalistanis in the west keep dying of cancers and gas explosions and other internal saboteurs keep visiting ED.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Jun 2023 21:59

Cyrano wrote:I think he is hinting at vikramaditya which was Admiral Goroshkov offered free to be refurbished

Cyrano ji,

caveat emptor is a well known principle since ancient times

what were our guys doing, sleeping or what....

This was after the USSR breakup and the whole situation in russkiland was very fluid and chaotic. Our guys, though not completely to blame, did not do their home work and the required risk analysis.

All the signs were there and a lot of Indian cowboys were prowling around the erstwhile USSR, and russkiland, trying to make a quick buck by locating scarce spares, and selling them on the black market back in India.

Many factories there simply evaporated as workers stole and sold whatever they could before they relocated to find jobs for themselves. Others moved into these factories and repurposed them by making consumer goods

It was a real rough time for everyone there. Everyone in the Indian ecosystem knew what was happening and yet they got taken for a ride or so they claim

they should have towed the carrier to a suitable ukrainian yard and got the refit done there. it was the most economical and also the best option, bar none

the road not taken......

but that's 20/20 hindsight talking.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Jun 2023 01:15

chetak wrote:
Cyrano wrote:I think he is hinting at vikramaditya which was Admiral Goroshkov offered free to be refurbished
Cyrano ji,

caveat emptor is a well known principle since ancient times

what were our guys doing, sleeping or what....

This was after the USSR breakup and the whole situation in russkiland was very fluid and chaotic. Our guys, though not completely to blame, did not do their home work and the required risk analysis.

All the signs were there and a lot of Indian cowboys were prowling around the erstwhile USSR, and russkiland, trying to make a quick buck by locating scarce spares, and selling them on the black market back in India.

Many factories there simply evaporated as workers stole and sold whatever they could before they relocated to find jobs for themselves. Others moved into these factories and repurposed them by making consumer goods

It was a real rough time for everyone there. Everyone in the Indian ecosystem knew what was happening and yet they got taken for a ride or so they claim

they should have towed the carrier to a suitable ukrainian yard and got the refit done there. it was the most economical and also the best option, bar none

the road not taken......

but that's 20/20 hindsight talking.

Well, the hope is that they do a better job this time. And isn't US hardware supposedly more reliable?

Any way, The main idea behind suggesting a freebie is... If the US wants Indian Navy to help contain China, and incredibly develop a US based defense ecosystem, the least that can be offered is heavily subsidized products... That's the sweetener. I mean isn't that what they do with all their friends like Israel?

Don't see why India should pay pure market prices...

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 16 Jun 2023 01:16

arshyam wrote:Avoiding posturing like the above would prevent us from getting into unproductive sidebars as we see so often on this thread, and elevate the quality of discussion. Since this itself is a sidebar, it's my last on the topic.

@arshyam avare, good post as usual. You understand Telugu so posting this. All of us know the subject matter and more. But these kinds of videos serve a purpose to educate aam log paamarulu as opposed to panDita (policy wonks of BRF kind).

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 16 Jun 2023 01:24

RaviB wrote:There is no question that China is our primary enemy over the next 20 years. USA can be the competitor from 2040 on and perhaps a counterpole from 2050 on.

Why only next 20 years? You feel China's going to magically fall apart after that? Because of demographics?

Overt friendliness now, combined with a healthy distrust will get us quicker to the goal of becoming an equal of the US in the 2050-70 timeline. In the meantime it will help us balance China until demographic collapse removes them from the picture around 2050.

I think that even as China's demography declines, it will still continue to be a serious threat to us. They'll have more nuclear weapons, they'll still have a relatively large military - certainly larger than Pakistan's - and will have an advanced air force and navy.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Jun 2023 02:00

This guy is selling snake oil

@ANI

Ajit Doval, a village boy from Uttarakhand who has not only become a national treasure but an international treasure...

When I look at the foundation between the United States and India, it is so strong, it is so clear that Indians love Americans and Americans love Indians...: US Ambassador to India, Eric Garcetti
7:33 PM · Jun 13, 2023

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jun 2023 04:22

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/i ... r-AA1czblZ

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jun 2023 04:23

chetak wrote:This guy is selling snake oil

@ANI

Ajit Doval, a village boy from Uttarakhand who has not only become a national treasure but an international treasure...

When I look at the foundation between the United States and India, it is so strong, it is so clear that Indians love Americans and Americans love Indians...: US Ambassador to India, Eric Garcetti
7:33 PM · Jun 13, 2023

He thinks he is in Hollywood.
NSA won't fall for such praise from.a weathercock.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 16 Jun 2023 06:20

I liked this one - interesting tidbits:

Never knew our own drones were ineffective below -45C. They said Predators are superior for their lower temperature tolerance.
(Unless of course everybody's just shilling for this deal)

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 16 Jun 2023 07:36

chetak wrote:This guy is selling snake oil

@ANI

Ajit Doval, a village boy from Uttarakhand who has not only become a national treasure but an international treasure...

When I look at the foundation between the United States and India, it is so strong, it is so clear that Indians love Americans and Americans love Indians...: US Ambassador to India, Eric Garcetti
7:33 PM · Jun 13, 2023

Did he really say that? I mean as in a direct quote

Rana · Post by **Rana** » 16 Jun 2023 10:54

The normally supercilious, condescending and suffering from colonial hangover magazine, The Economist, this week has a largely positive cover story on India.
https://archive.is/p3VfD

There are 5 other links within

*America is courting India in part for its growing economic clout
*India’s foreign minister on ties with America, China and Russia
*On defence, America and India edge closer together
*Banyan: Narendra Modi is the world’s most popular leader
*India’s diaspora is bigger and more influential than any in history

disha · Post by **disha** » 16 Jun 2023 12:44

Manish_P wrote:Did he really say that? I mean as in a direct quote

Yes. That's Garcetti for you.

Vayutuvan wrote: But these kinds of videos serve a purpose to educate aam log paamarulu as opposed to panDita (policy wonks of BRF kind).

Vayutuvan avare, can you please post an english summation what the "Prem Talks" Telugu vlog is saying about Biden, US, Modi, Garcetti, Xi and China? He has some >1 Million subscribers and I am sure his reach will be ~2M for some such video blogs. That is bigger than CNN in US.

In US and in India and across US and India, video-blogs have taken over big way. On any given day, a good vlogger has a reach surpassing CNN/FOX/NDTV/ABP.

-----

Also I am reproducing Bloomberg article syndicated by MSN below in full linked by Ramanaji above. Some of emphasis are mine. And some notes there in as well.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/i ... r-AA1czblZ

Bloomberg
India, US Near Deal to Build Jet Engines in Boost to Modi
Story by Sudhi Ranjan Sen • Yesterday 6:20 PM

IN THIS ARTICLE

Indian Air Force's fighter aircraft Tejas. Source: Indian Air Force/Anadolu Agency/Getty Images
© Getty Images via Bloomberg

(Bloomberg) -- The US and India are likely to agree to jointly manufacture fighter jet engines in the South Asian nation when Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits Washington next week, a sign of closer military cooperation between the two countries in the face of China’s growing assertiveness.

The deal is close to the finish line, according to people with knowledge of the matter, who asked not to be identified as the details are confidential. The White House is expected to clear the proposal from General Electric Co., the Massachusetts-based aerospace manufacturing giant, to produce the engines with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. for the Tejas light-combat aircraft, the people said.

Modi starts his first formal state visit on June 21. President Joe Biden will host him for a state banquet, and the Indian leader will also address the US Congress.

A number of the deliverables from Modi’s visit “are not just bullet points on a page,” US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said at a conference in New Delhi on Tuesday. “They are fundamentally designed to remove those obstacles in defense trading, in high tech trade, in investment in each of our countries.”

It is inline with my expectation that US-India relations "are not just bullet points on a page". I posit that the global order has changed already and only two countries are capable to lead the world. US and India.

World is helped if both US and India work together for a better world future. Of course, for this US has to do more to get out of its self-centered Pax America policy and India (in general) has to be more confident about its role and responsibility. China does not matter, being a 1000lb self-centered gorilla, it has nothing to offer to the world other than strife, disease and cheap electronics.

Here is a thought exercise for the forum members, I state with complete confidence that the entire Asian identity, spanning from west Asia (not the middle-east/africa) and all the way to Japan is the result of Indic philosophy. What Asia thinks and behaves, except the colonial, islamic and the communist imprints, is basically rooted in Indic philosophy.

So if India is now responsible (uttardayitva) and rightful nation (uttaradhikari) to lead the world, the dayitva and adhikar has been handed to us by our ancestors tying us to the only unbroken human civilization on this Earth.*

Sullivan is in India this week for meetings with top Indian officials ahead of the Modi visit.

Modi’s visit comes as the Biden administration is working to deepen its relationship with countries that are crucial to counter what it sees as China’s growing threat. In deepening its ties with India the US has also appeared willing to overlook its democratic backsliding as it seeks to pull the South Asian nation away from Russia’s sphere of influence.

1. US needs allies against China threat. Or does it need a frontline ally? Yes, China did a cardinal and strategic mistake of attacking its neighbour in the south twice and losing complete trust and respect. No different than the neighbour in north-west which is always tactically brilliant and strategically stupid.

2. And it is interesting an article from a banana republic (US) is putting out "overlook its (India's) democratic backsliding" as if the later needs any approval card! Is the assertion a common edit from the editorial board of bloomberg?

Ties between US and India have grown stronger as concerns over China have increased despite significant differences “in the fields of values and vision,” said Sushant Singh, a senior fellow at New the Centre of Policy Research, a New Delhi-based think tank. “Those are currently being overridden by interests.”

The jet engine agreement, which would require technology transfer from America, will need approval from the US Congress, where India is banking on the general upswing in ties and bipartisan support to clear remaining hurdles.

Bengaluru-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and India’s Ministry of External Affairs didn’t immediately reply to requests for comment. The US National Security Council had no comment, and GE declined to comment.

The jet engine agreement would fit in with Modi’s wider push to boost defense manufacturing locally but with technology partnerships with nations that are keen to draw New Delhi into their orbit as Russia’s war in Ukraine drags on into a second year. Earlier this month Germany’s Thyssenkrupp AG’s marine arm and India’s Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd. signed an initial agreement to jointly build submarines for the Indian navy.

Russia remains India’s largest supplier of military hardware, though purchases have slowed by 19% in the last five years due to sanctions and increased competition from other manufacturing countries. Russian deliveries of military supplies to India have ground to a halt as the countries struggle to find a payment mechanism that doesn’t violate Western sanctions.

The domestic production of the GE engines will strengthen India’s fighter jet program and its air force, whose fleet of rapidly aging Russian fighters need to be replaced. It will also boost Modi’s image as he looks at a third term in office in national elections next year.

India and the US will also likely inch closer to agreements on other defense issues, including India’s purchase of over a dozen armed drones that could exponentially boost its sea and land defense capabilities.
...
--With assistance from Jennifer Jacobs and Ryan Beene.

One outcome that I am rooting for is for India to get enough cooperation from US to bolster its security, including defense & energy security and economy and deepening trade ties.

* PS: If mods permit, I want to gather articles, information and evidences in a thread under "Indian Philosophy and how it molds the Asian identity". This thought was triggered by one-off statement by an ASI historian in a vlog and my visits to museums and seeing art & sculpture from Mongolia, S. Korea and Japan. And of course, the PM of Papua New-Guinea touching the feet of PM of India.

ricky_v · Post by **ricky_v** » 16 Jun 2023 15:26

disha wrote: China does not matter, being a 1000lb self-centered gorilla, it has nothing to offer to the world other than strife, disease and cheap electronics.

apologies if off-topic

imo, this view is incorrect, i have been looking at some of the videos of african and latin leaders with western broadcasters / officials, the view is always the same "you (the collective west) can only give lectures, china gives us infrastructure", that china gains through exorbitant rates and chinese companies is another matter, at the end of the day, these deprived nations get some much needed infra, whether it be power plants, dams, roads, bridges, airports, city infra ityadi, china, thus has heft and it would be unwise to broadly dismiss this outreach. These nations are also realising that though the west gave a lot of aid to them, this mostly went to chieftains, warlords who kept their nation in disarray for easier access to rare earths, the rest went to the ngos which very neatly operate out of any government jurisdiction (the assertion is not far-fetched, we all remember the halcyon days of the maino-led vaunted NAC). So, when the chinese show up and actually build something on the ground, it goes a long way in trust.

Here is a thought exercise for the forum members, I state with complete confidence that the entire Asian identity, spanning from west Asia (not the middle-east/africa) and all the way to Japan is the result of Indic philosophy. What Asia thinks and behaves, except the colonial, islamic and the communist imprints, is basically rooted in Indic philosophy.

i disagree with assertion for you have not included the elephant.. or the lion in the room, persia / iran. Islam was spread by the arabic sword, yes, but it was nurtured and maintained by the persian philosophy / outlook and more chiefly by its bureaucrats / officials / vizier, i beleive there are many accounts of core arabs lamenting the persian involvement in governance during their "golden ages", also nowroz (inb4 navratri)

added later

; the prthus and parsus have been alien and distant ever since the days of the Dasarajanaya Yudhha and we have drifted apart much, persia was more molded by its conflicts with the Hellenistic worldview and the mideast including well into the balkans has a bedrock of both persian and hellenistic influences topped up by arabic, med, orthodox, turkic in varying proportions.

Now, the indic civilisation has also been influenced by the hellenstic outlook, yavanas have been a common feature in antiquity, and once their bloodlines intermingled with the hunas, sakas and kushanas, they were also major players in indic politics for some time, though this time the bedrock was indic...iow, if there are similarities, then it is a combination of outlook of pre-schism india and greek influence... and later with the mughals, but the layering is superficial, the meat of our philosophies are very different

World is helped if both US and India work together for a better world future. Of course, for this US has to do more to get out of its self-centered Pax America policy and India (in general) has to be more confident about its role and responsibility.

all major civilisations have this 3-power phase

, india (rashtrakutas, chalukyas, pala-pratihara), china (most of its history has this 3 power), europe and then the west, and this is the phase that the world is entering currently, imo, china supplies the hardware for the world (infra building), us supplies the software (institution building) as it wishes, india supplies it as it is (the rules based), there are always chances of a conflict in this matter

again, apologies for this ot post

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 17 Jun 2023 05:33

Quick summary is for state of relationship between India and US at best be transactional based on mutual interests (China threat), but no shared values. And the useless "backsliding in democracy, freedom, minority" from the echo chamber is used to substantiate the claim.

India as It Is, Washington and New Delhi Share Interests, Not Values
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/india/ma ... ted-states

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 17 Jun 2023 07:16

https://www.usip.org/people/daniel-markey-phd

Some GOTUS think tanky. $55 million budget coing from SDOTUS, DOD, USAID and Congressional budget office.

More here. They have a nice pad in Duplicity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... e_of_Peace

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 17 Jun 2023 15:32

krithivas wrote:Quick summary is for state of relationship between India and US at best be transactional based on mutual interests (China threat), but no shared values. And the useless "backsliding in democracy, freedom, minority" from the echo chamber is used to substantiate the claim.

India as It Is, Washington and New Delhi Share Interests, Not Values
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/india/ma ... ted-states

For those who do not wish to read this article, a summary, Why won't India take orders from us, alternatively, Why is India refusing to be enslaved!

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 17 Jun 2023 19:27

disha wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Did he really say that? I mean as in a direct quote

Yes. That's Garcetti for you.

...

amazing.

Pity our diplomats are too polite.

Someone should have channeled his inner Humphrey Appleby and replied to the effect that - Thank you ambassador for recognising our common history in that we cast off the same imperialist yolk. and yes brown Indians have loved America, even when America reserved it's affections to our neighbour, at least it didn't put us in reservations like it did of the 'red' kind.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jun 2023 08:49

Ricky_v & RoyG, please take these non-germane posts elsewhere. Thanks.

ricky_v · Post by **ricky_v** » 18 Jun 2023 09:09

done SSridhar sir, x-posted in western universalism thread

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Jun 2023 18:21

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 19 Jun 2023 23:45

This is a rumor from a reliable source

US wants to make deal on Ukraine. Europe is restless.

Blinken is China. Biden invites Modi and lays out red carpet. There is a theory that Jin Ping and Modi to initiate a peace deal and work it out as their initiative and make it US reluctantly agreed. They don't want this war next yar during the election.

Any take on this theory?