Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 15 Jun 2023 20:09

GTRE may be much maligned but it is inconceivable that they are not aware of most of what Maityaji is saying. They developed the engine so they would know.

Some of the options may not be feasible due to impacts or trade off that result in some other subsystem. A few mat be beyond their capability due to lack of capability and knowledge. I will be surprised if there are any low hanging fruit to be had - even the options that are possible will require taking risks, accepting >50% chance of failure and a hard slog - qualities they may not have.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jun 2023 04:21

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/i ... r-AA1czblZ

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Jun 2023 06:07

Tanaji wrote:GTRE may be much maligned but it is inconceivable that they are not aware of most of what Maityaji is saying. They developed the engine so they would know.

Some of the options may not be feasible due to impacts or trade off that result in some other subsystem. A few mat be beyond their capability due to lack of capability and knowledge. I will be surprised if there are any low hanging fruit to be had - even the options that are possible will require taking risks, accepting >50% chance of failure and a hard slog - qualities they may not have.

Tanaji saar,

Maitya ji has done a good job and has taken the great trouble to compile, collate, put out the data, and also made it available in one place for easy reference. His efforts are to be appreciated

As for the lab, they are more than aware of their shortcomings and have been aware for decades now. Get a technical audit done by professionally knowledgeable subject matter experts, and see them run for cover

It is only of late that many folks are rightfully asking all these guys and their country cousins in other labs "what results have you produced so far with my money"

The ecosystem that they have created for themselves is a closed and perks filled cozy club and their promotions are never stopped because of the unions.

Everybody is not only an outstanding scientist, but also a favored and entitled son/daughter in law of the ecosystem and none is accountable for the thousands of crores just poured down the drain over the years

The cheenis call this phenomenon the "iron rice bowl"

"Iron rice bowl" (simplified Chinese: 铁饭碗; traditional Chinese: 鐵飯碗; pinyin: tiě fàn wǎn) is a Chinese term for an occupation with guaranteed job security.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 16 Jun 2023 10:47

To an outsider, the path to perfecting and then gradually improving the underlying tech using the unmanned aircraft program makes sense. However, more than one engine program is needed given the diversity of military aircraft desired. This is where the lack of investment is apparent. If there were multiple programs running, there would necessarily be an upgradation of test facilities as one program or the other would be testing something new every year.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 16 Jun 2023 12:21

Adding to Vera_k's post.

Smaller incremental targets for example with 5, 10, 25, 50kN thrust for different platforms leads to better chances of being commoditized, indigenized , and going into production platforms. Just one successful platform, just one , with 100s of engines sold completely changes the dynamics of engagements with investors i.e. babus and GoI.
This leads to good marketing pitches, revenue streams and funds surplus and confidence. You create jobs, the babus are happy, the govt will sell it to the people.
Asking for funds based on past success is easier. Sharing costs on Infra development becomes easier. Everybody wants to join and come out shining including DMRL, Midhani etc.

Just look at the confidence at IMRH presentation at Aero India. Some 10K Cr investment, which needs GoI approval since it is major shareholder, and no one is batting a eyelid. It comes AFTER the success of Dhruv, LCH and LUH. Not before.

Denis · Post by **Denis** » 17 Jun 2023 15:41

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/india ... 957211.htm

India and HAL will get technology for the following aspects of GE jet engines:
> Special coating for erosion and corrosion
> Repair technology for turbine
> Compression disc and blades
> Coating and machining of single crystal turbine blades
> Machining & coating of hot end parts
> Complete tech transfer for blisk machining
> Machining of powder metallurgy
> Polymer matrix composite
> Laser drilling for combustion
> Bottle boring of shafts
The process of collaboration on jet engine production will begin after the signing of the deal between GE and HAL. The technology transfer is likely to happen in phases and by the end of three years, 80 percent of the value added to the engine will happen in India.

Denis · Post by **Denis** » 17 Jun 2023 15:44

Question to Maitya SIr, would any of these technologies listed for transfer by GE help us leap frog?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jun 2023 16:35

What is being transferred will make us keep the engines running ourselves, it will not help us design and make new engines.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Jun 2023 17:56

Can Kaveri be fabricated using the tools and materials procured for the 414.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Jun 2023 18:16

Pratyush wrote:Can Kaveri be fabricated using the tools and materials procured for the 414.

every bit of scrap including the turnings from the lathes have to be accounted for and these accountings are audited.

Often, the scrap waste from specialized alloys and other patented material have to be returned.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Jun 2023 18:18

Aditya_V wrote:What is being transferred will make us keep the engines running ourselves, it will not help us design and make new engines.

critical parts will still be "bought out" meaning supplied by the OEM.

so, they still hold the leash rather tightly

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 17 Jun 2023 19:49

What is interesting about the whole Kaveri issue is we clearly have the funds and talent but we can’t seem to translate these ingredients into critical tech advancements. In my view, what is missing are incentives, transparent and forward thinking procurement system, and institutional oversight of talent retention, milestones, and quality improvement. And ofcourse, none of this will happen unless we have a completely different setup and accountability for civil services whose livelihood will be jeopardized if things take off.

It’s a sad state affairs that after so long Kaveri failed. you have spin offs and that’s great but it’s primary mission was indeed a failure. We have instead now decided to do “make in India” for 414 which is basically a rebranding of our current procurement system. We will manufacture non critical spare parts for the engine making it cheaper while all the IP and critical tech remains with US and they will give the permission to export.

It brings me back to this thing I read once - Some people are good leaders and some people are good managers, but rarely do you find both. I think this has been the case over successive governments when it comes to building autonomy in defence.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2023 20:45

RoyG wrote:What is interesting about the whole Kaveri issue is we clearly have the funds and talent but we can’t seem to translate these ingredients into critical tech advancements.
......

Still on my vacation, so a quick response.

There is absolutely no will in India to design an engine.

After reading most posts, there is absolutely nothing unique to India in any of these situations.

If India is serious start designing and building and investing in state of the art test facilities. Even if a JV were to be signed all serious testing would be done abroad.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 17 Jun 2023 21:03

I would disagree that there is talent in GTRE to design a F414 class engine. Three seems to be a fundamental lack of basic research and applied engineering that is hampering their efforts to go to the next level. The lack of flying test bed is a red herring - that would come after they have reached the thrust level in static fire.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 17 Jun 2023 21:24

I think we are expecting too much. that engine TOT will give us technology to design our own engines.
Maybe our goal is engine TOT that will allow us to make the engines and hence make Tejas sanction proof. Avoid any mischief by the US. Thats it.

williams · Post by **williams** » 17 Jun 2023 23:02

Tanaji wrote:I would disagree that there is talent in GTRE to design a F414 class engine. Three seems to be a fundamental lack of basic research and applied engineering that is hampering their efforts to go to the next level. The lack of flying test bed is a red herring - that would come after they have reached the thrust level in the static fire.

No technocrat in their sane mind will go/stay in a job where you are paid criminally low, interrupted all the time with changes in specs and change in the road map, and at the end of the road, the final product will be rejected for an inferior product. That is mostly the story in GOI engineering institutions this long (examples are Arjun, ATAGs, etc). Not to mention the constant political maneuvering and budget constraints that are thrust upon these projects by people who hardly understand the complexity and the crucial technical know-how to make such financial decisions. The world is changing but we are still expecting saints like Kalam where everybody works against you and you still stay the course to deliver. Our technocrats have talent, they have invariably produced results. We need to change the ecosystem otherwise the same technocrats will move on and produce results where they are respected.

As someone said, if we are serious about engine development, spend real money on the needed testing infrastructure, hire the necessary talent, and give them a mission with a goal. Our technocrats will do it even with lower pay is a guess. Until then this rat dance will continue. BTW that is what happens in the space and missile programs before. We need the same approach for engine development too.

chaitanya · Post by **chaitanya** » 18 Jun 2023 02:22

Maybe this is a stupid question, but in the ‘TOT’ will there be any know-how transfer on production technologies? Meaning automation methods, qc, robotics, etc?

The reason I ask is, sure maybe the latest materials technology, etc. won’t be transferred, but is there anything lacking in manufacturing methods? From my understanding Russian production technology is more manual than western, maybe that’s what we are after… sorry if it doesn’t make sense but I am trying to find some logic in this decades long chase for TOT and the ensuing discussion here!

williams · Post by **williams** » 18 Jun 2023 03:37

chaitanya wrote:Maybe this is a stupid question, but in the ‘TOT’ will there be any know-how transfer on production technologies? Meaning automation methods, qc, robotics, etc?

The reason I ask is, sure maybe the latest materials technology, etc. won’t be transferred, but is there anything lacking in manufacturing methods? From my understanding Russian production technology is more manual than Western, and maybe that’s what we are after… sorry if it doesn’t make sense but I am trying to find some logic in this decades-long chase for TOT and the ensuing discussion here!

None of the stuff that is being transferred will provide any know-how or why. You just got a way to manufacture the engine in your country with the key components coming from a foreign country. It is not sanctions proof or a way to build your own know-how or why. There will be some economic benefits like the availability of jobs and hopefully, we manufacture stuff locally cheaper. That is it.

WRT building your own capability to create your own engines and manufacturing ecosystem etc has to evolve in your own country and it has to be done the hard way. Just think about how CE 20 replaced Russian engines. This setup will run the same way hopefully. One benefit could be once you have the capability to manufacture your own engine, you will have the trained manpower to hire locally.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 18 Jun 2023 04:49

Williams,

Building knowledge generating institutions is very challenging. We had the beginnings of institution building in ancient times with the different sampradayas but the islamic colonialism snuffed it out. According to SN Balagangadhara's research program, colonialism did two things: 1) It physically destroyed these knowledge generating institutions 2) It severely disrupted our ability to access our own experiences.

IMO, we need to somehow rediscover both with the zeal we once had in order to churn out quality talent and knowledge. I am currently going through challenges in setting up an institution in medicine and let me tell you, it is a b*tch - Dealing with an entrenched bureaucracy, finding funding, and to find and train talent which will stay and continue building the institution. This is very small scale, and the challenges to produce something like a high tech jet engine are one thousand fold higher.

I think the PMO has given up on trying to reform the civil services which is why he is building a parallel architecture at every rung of the talent generating chain starting with setting up foreign universities on indian soil. We need to do more however and a good place maybe to start is to get these IIMs to do some serious investigating into what ails our indian research and what kind of leadership and management setup is required to fix it.

I think the penalty is increasing both to our strategic autonomy and economy especially with advancements in AI and we will be in big trouble very soon if things dont change.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2023 06:16

More details are filtering in with the advent of the GE F414-INS6 turbofan deal. Posting what all I have come across.

Maitya-ji, please elucidate some of the next series of posts...so everyone can understand.

maitya wrote:Rakeshji (or any mod), is there a way you guys can rectify some typos in the last few posts (in my reply to Pratyush ji above and to the Part-2 post etc) - just wanted to make them as accurate as possible.

Saar, you can edit your own posts. Go to your post in question and right next to your username (at left), you will see some buttons. One of them is a button with a pencil/pen graphic. Click on that and you can edit your post.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2023 06:18

Rakesh wrote:Because if India can xerox copy her own version of the F414-INS6 - right down to the nut and bolt - why then would India waste valuable FOREX and award GE yet another contract for 200+ to 260+ turbofans? GE knows this. The US knows this too. What really is the net positive for either of these entities to lose out on billions of dollars of business + geopolitical leverage (which has an immeasurable value)? And the same is true for Rolls Royce (UK) and Safran (France).

The engine manufacturers from these three countries have a full monopoly in low and high bypass turbofans.

So much for full ToT (i.e. hot section) of the F414-INS6 turbofan.

Modi’s State Visit to the U.S.: Five Wish List Items
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articl ... 40871.html
15 June 2023

The Biden administration should approve a new agreement under review to produce fighter jet engines in India. India is purchasing roughly 100 U.S.-made F414 jet engines to power its Tejas fighter aircraft and the Biden administration is reviewing a pact to that will allow more of the engines to be produced domestically in India, increasing the technology transfer involved.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2023 06:20

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 31168?s=20 ---> This is the 'Know-How', manufacturing level ToT. We are not getting any 'Know-Why' for the design and manufacturing of GE-414 engine.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2023 06:23

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/167 ... 53856?s=20 ---> The way I look at it: This F-414 INS6 agreement with GE can put Indian industry on a better footing to co-develop with DRDO the ab initio engine that will be required to power the AMCA Mk2. However, the indigenization of the rather crucial parts for which the Americans are withholding manufacturing ToT needs to be embarked upon ASAP by engaging credible private sector partners in India.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/167 ... 79906?s=20 ---> It was always unlikely that the Americans would agree to include the investment casting process required to produce Ni-based superalloy single crystal blades for say the High-pressure turbine blades in any manufacturing and licensing agreement.

https://twitter.com/dkbharati/status/16 ... 68098?s=20 ---> But what is being received, how good it is?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/167 ... 43457?s=20 ---> Yeah, so if this list is correct, the standout parts are:

1. The Americans agreeing to the transfer of the thermal barrier coatings used on the HPT single crystal blades. These are typically applied using a robotic thermal (plasma) spraying process.

2. They also seem to be talking about giving the 'machining' needed for single crystal turbine blades. I think this may be a reference to the fettling component involved in the creation of such blades.

Nowhere, however, do I see any mention of the word 'casting'.

https://twitter.com/bheemmz/status/1670 ... 65504?s=20 ---> What about growing Single crystal blades, discs and casting of various components? Electronics? Software? I think 20% value addition being projected as 80%

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/167 ... 20672?s=20 ---> No investment casting for SCBs, or isothermal forging tech for HPC Blisks is being transferred.

https://twitter.com/dkbharati/status/16 ... 58914?s=20 ---> Does it gives us the capability to uprate engine in the future?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/167 ... 70979?s=20 ---> No. However, we can indigenize the engine in the future much more easily.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2023 06:31

US-India Landmark Jet Engine Deal Includes Unprecedented 80 Per Cent Tech Transfer By Value: Report
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/us-indi ... lue-report
17 June 2023

During the upcoming state visit by Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the United States, India and the US are set to sign a deal for the co-production of General Electric's F414 fighter jet engine. According to a source quoted by CNBC-TV18, the agreement between GE and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will involve an impressive 80 per cent transfer of jet engine technology by value, marking a significant milestone in cooperation between the two countries. Currently, the negotiating teams from India and the United States are focusing on finalizing payment mechanisms, procurement of machinery, and modalities for technology transfer.

The transfer of technology will encompass several crucial aspects of GE jet engines. These include special coating for erosion and corrosion, repair technology for turbines, compression disc and blades, coating and machining of single crystal turbine blades, machining and coating of hot end parts, complete tech transfer for blisk machining, machining of powder metallurgy, polymer matrix composite, laser drilling for combustion, and bottle boring of shafts.

The US has not shared engine technology to this extent with any other nation. A source familiar with the deal stated, "This level of technology transfer has not been given by the US, the UK, and France to any country." The transfer of technology is expected to occur gradually, taking place in different phases over the next few years. Within a span of three years, it is anticipated that India will contribute 80 percent of the value added to the engine through this technology transfer process.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2023 06:44

The U.S. Should Transfer Advanced Jet Engine Technology to India to Support a Strong Partner in Countering China
https://www.heritage.org/defense/report ... ng-partner
08 June 2023

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 18 Jun 2023 10:16

Rakesh,

That 20% is everything we need to manufacture ourselves. We will not be any closer to putting Kaveri engine into high gear and they know that. This is all gimmick.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jun 2023 10:18

RoyG wrote:That 20% is everything we need to manufacture ourselves. We will not be any closer to putting Kaveri engine into high gear and they know that. This is all gimmick.

Told ya

BTW, we already have most of this tech, in one project or the other, and in one form or the other

What is "unprecedented" in this case is only the BS

These guys are blowing smoke, as usual

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 18 Jun 2023 10:27

chetak wrote:
RoyG wrote:That 20% is everything we need to manufacture ourselves. We will not be any closer to putting Kaveri engine into high gear and they know that. This is all gimmick.
Told ya

BTW, we already have most of this tech, in one project or the other, and in one form or the other

What is "unprecedented" in this case is only the BS

These guys are blowing smoke, as usual

Look the bull in the eye. Unfortunately, Modi and company can’t do it.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jun 2023 10:42

RoyG wrote:
chetak wrote: Told ya

BTW, we already have most of this tech, in one project or the other, and in one form or the other

What is "unprecedented" in this case is only the BS

These guys are blowing smoke, as usual
Look the bull in the eye. Unfortunately, Modi and company can’t do it.

The Indians have not reacted to this amriki PR blitz

The political hierarchy is aware of the amriki agenda and their attempt to play to the gallery.

garcetti is part of this snake oil agenda operating from within India, and he has not got the expected traction from the media in India.

Also, there is not much interest being shown to overtures like becoming a part of NATO+ and the amriki politicos passing resolutions inviting India into some NATO labyrinth hasn't got the expected response, even from the lootyens/congi clubs and their foreign policy wonks

This garcetti joker comes across as an amriki khujliwal, even though he is well dressed, impeccably groomed, and has a daily bath

This tech transfer may not be the pièce de résistance, so we wait to see what is actually brewing in their witches cauldron: the concoctions, hell-broths, and potions

all will be revealed, in the fullness of time....

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Jun 2023 11:05

Or India needs to pay jazia for another decade for some reason. Before the tools are fully displayed.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 18 Jun 2023 15:13

Rakesh wrote: ...
maitya wrote:Rakeshji (or any mod), is there a way you guys can rectify some typos in the last few posts (in my reply to Pratyush ji above and to the Part-2 post etc) - just wanted to make them as accurate as possible.
Saar, you can edit your own posts. Go to your post in question and right next to your username (at left), you will see some buttons. One of them is a button with a pencil/pen graphic. Click on that and you can edit your post.

Sirjee, after a few days that edit button (pencil/pen graphic) disappears ... so have to rely on mods for editing slightly old posts.

=========================
Others I'm trying to squeeze out some b/w to post on these latest reports about F414 TOAST initiatives ... until then, here's some trivia (already posted about an decade+ back in this very thread) to chew on:

1) The supah-dupah F414 achieves 30 OPR with 3 stage LPC and 7 stages HPC ... however, the much maligned Kaveri achieves 21.5 OPR, with 6.4 coming from the 6 stages of HPC - which implies, in a very simplistic calculation (assuming all 6 stages of HPC have same SPR, which obviously it isn't) approx 1.36 SPR for the HPC.

Now by Dginn magic, if GTRE is able to squeeze in a 7th stage in the HPC, guess what the OPR of Kaveri (with exactly same poor-SPR based stages) will look like - you guessed it, 29.7.

Yes, both length and weight will increase, but if they can achieve what GE did in F404-to-F414 "evolution" i.e.
a) shortening of the afterburner by 10cm and the combustor by 2.5cm
b) introduced blisks in the largest (thus heaviest) section (1st 3 stages) of the HPC and reduced 23Kg of weight.
Ofcourse similar stunts by desi kallurams will immediately put down as crude attempt of bloody-cheating by all and sundry.

2) The supah-dupah Rene-N6 (3rd gen SC), based on which the F414 HPT blades are casted, has both lower metal temp capability (of ~1108deg C vs 1140degC of DMS4) and creep rapture strength compared to suddh desi DMS4.

And if one is trying to understand the various "Tech transfer lists" that have now started appearing in media (posted by Denisji, Rakeshji), vis-à-vis indigenous turbofan initiatives etc, you may want to do quick readout of these two of my earlier posts:
1. Post-1
2. Post-2

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 18 Jun 2023 18:00

According to a Defence AV channel HAL will manufacture the F414 engine, but:
- India will not get the Intellectual property rights, GE will retain the IPR
- Each engine manufactured by HAL will require GE's "pre-approval"
- India is prohibited from making unauthorized modifications to the engine

and here is the lollipop for the glorified screwdriver venture:
-There is a "scope for collaboration" to carry out "further engine advancement" that aligns with India specific requirements.

The media leaks about Rolls Royce kick backs coming out now is clear. It was only to sabotage and prevent RR from being a competitor in this multi billion dollar engine sale to India. RR had a very serious chance of winning the competition as it was willing to "share the IPR" with India and was also offering to make India a partner in the engine development program for UK's 6G fighter.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2023 19:17

@Vips: no one will share the IPR. Unkil will never allow it.

What license production of the F414-INS6 will however do is give India an insight into how the turbofan is put together. Hopefully some valuable lessons will be learnt from this. But at the end of the day, unless India makes significant investments into the fundamentals of turbofan engines, the investment made into setting up the F414-INS6 assembly line will be money wasted.

I hope this puts to rest the notion that India could successfully negotiate the hot section of the engine. Folks need to stop buying into what Ambassadors say or do. A number of the Indian-Americans (i.e. NRIs) on this forum want to so desperately see a reality (a utopian bonhomie between India and the US) come true. But at every step of the way, India has not been the standard partner that the US is used to dealing with. And when slivers of hope (this particular deal for example and the SE F-16 deal being another) come about, then simple logic is set aside and fantasies are weaved into existence. Decades spent outside of India, has left these NRIs in a twilight zone of their own making. The India they left (in the 60s, 70s or 80s) is not the same India today. While a number of systemic issues still persist, the Indian youth of today is not in the same bleak economic situation that these NRIs encountered in their youth.

America is not the panacea to India's developmental challenges. Our problems are of our own making and the solutions must come from us.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jun 2023 20:02

Vips wrote:According to a Defence AV channel HAL will manufacture the F414 engine, but:
- India will not get the Intellectual property rights, GE will retain the IPR
- Each engine manufactured by HAL will require GE's "pre-approval"
- India is prohibited from making unauthorized modifications to the engine

and here is the lollipop for the glorified screwdriver venture:
-There is a "scope for collaboration" to carry out "further engine advancement" that aligns with India specific requirements.

The media leaks about Rolls Royce kick backs coming out now is clear. It was only to sabotage and prevent RR from being a competitor in this multi billion dollar engine sale to India. RR had a very serious chance of winning the competition as it was willing to "share the IPR" with India and was also offering to make India a partner in the engine development program for UK's 6G fighter.

why can we not still continue with this RR deal, a second development track for reducing the risk in the development process plus another viewpoint into the fighter engine design process and perhaps, also get ourselves a good deal in the bargain

the amrikis can hardly do much about any deal we sign with RR, will they dare sanction their own tail

If we open negotiations with RR, safran will jump in for sure, with a deal of their own

BTW, in a process very similar to what GE is offering us, we are already building the sukhoi engine in India

Poor kaveri though, it may finally just end up as a technology demonstrator

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jun 2023 20:32

https://twitter.com/JaidevJamwal/status ... 62882?s=20 ---> Real picture of USA transferring jet engine technology to India.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 18 Jun 2023 20:52

The problem is the successive leadership including this one messed up the whole thing. Now what choice do we have but to bite the bullet and buy. We have to get the planes up in the air and sell to other countries. F414 is best option for this. Scientific establishment and procurement is a mess. No good leadership or management from people at the top. What is the point of all these so called scientific bodies like niti ayog. Sit around and bullsh*t each other all day seems like.

This is all premeditated murder buy a very collusive entity made up of civil service, military seniors, and foreign intelligence. All across the board high ticket items like jet engines, subs, apcs, tanks, etc. are being sabotaged. They got it all figured out and feed Mughlai to Indian tax payer with “make in India”. Marketing gimmick and PMO doesn’t have a damn clue about anything.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jun 2023 21:51

RoyG wrote:The problem is the successive leadership including this one messed up the whole thing. Now what choice do we have but to bite the bullet and buy. We have to get the planes up in the air and sell to other countries. F414 is best option for this. Scientific establishment and procurement is a mess. No good leadership or management from people at the top. What is the point of all these so called scientific bodies like niti ayog. Sit around and bullsh*t each other all day seems like.

This is all premeditated murder buy a very collusive entity made up of civil service, military seniors, and foreign intelligence. All across the board high ticket items like jet engines, subs, apcs, tanks, etc. are being sabotaged. They got it all figured out and feed Mughlai to Indian tax payer with “make in India”. Marketing gimmick and PMO doesn’t have a damn clue about anything.

The PMO has every clue but everyone will not like what they have to say.

which is why this amriki deal is coming about, and entities like RR and safran are showing a great deal of interest. They smell good money and easy funding for their next gen engine.

left to the local yokels and those without any clue who are providing "leadership" in such projects, the iron rice bowl equipped सरकारी बिरादरी would still be pushing for the "flying test bed" as the panacea for all their problems

The bad workmen blame their tools and the good workmen are already in the gulf, doing their thing...

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 18 Jun 2023 22:11

If 80% ToT is the reason for this heartburn, please do overlook it. At the end of the day, I am glad that we will get the engines for the next 3 important projects, Tejas Mk2, TEDBF & AMCA Mk1. There was no going back on this specific engine with all the 3 programs at critical stages. We still can go with either RR or Safran for the AMCA MK2 engine program. That said, GTRE shot itself on its foot by directly trying to build a GE404 caliber engine for starters. Maybe it should start with a new clean slate design and build a replacement for GE404. The other option is to bring private industries with a PLI scheme to work with GTRE as a National Mission project with clear objectives and timelines.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jun 2023 23:14

https://twitter.com/CNBCTV18Live/status ... 76769?s=20 --->

https://twitter.com/CNBCTV18Live/status ... 45376?s=20 --->

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jun 2023 02:52

konaseema wrote:If 80% ToT is the....

80% by value.

Not the same as 80% by tech!!!

"Value" can include chai biscut and flights between New Delhi and Bengaluru to update people sitting in New Delhi.