Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 20 Jun 2023 03:31

From the list of ToT techs - looks like we will be unblocked to make a better and usable Kaveri? If that is correct - it is a big win - I guess that would make sense for India to negotiate for along with local testing facilities. IMO - Kaveri is not going anywhere - it has a great base and might see the light of day with these techs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jun 2023 03:48

chetak wrote: https://twitter.com/CNBCTV18Live/status ... 45376?s=20 --->

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/16 ... 49315?s=20 ---> What exactly is "new" here that DMRL & HAL haven't done already?

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/16 ... 14849?s=20 ---> Saw repair of blades, discs as part of ToT somewhere. Laser based blade repair (Cladding & DED) is a research area funded by PW & GE at IISc. Open source literature abounds.

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/16 ... 02529?s=20 ---> But here's the thing - PMC for Casing & ducts, PM for discs were/are work in progress. Any manufacturing technology in these areas is welcome. And a good option to take to avoid re-inventing the wheel in these areas and switch focus (& funds) to areas that we wont get any help in - CMCs, Hi temp SX alloys.

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/16 ... 34050?s=20 ---> Even here EDM/ECM & LFW are being researched & developed in our institutes. Its a coin-toss decision whether to do it on our own or get it from outside and get over it. It needn't be 400% indigenous (something naysayers constantly use as a strawman).

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/16 ... 98304?s=20 --->

PMC - Polymer Matrix Composites
CMC - Ceramic Matrix Composites
PM - Powder Metallurgy
EDM/ECM - Electrical Discharge/Electro Chemical Machining
LFW - Linear Friction Welding
SX - Single Crystal

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jun 2023 03:49

https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1 ... 54336?s=20 ---> Fan with high inlet pressure distortion tolerance for Kaveri. Such Atmanirbhar efforts must continue independently even when F414s are made in India in a few years. Only then can benefits of any new technologies obtained via ToT be transferred seamlessly to all Indian engine programs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jun 2023 03:51

V_Raman wrote:From the list of ToT techs - looks like we will be unblocked to make a better and usable Kaveri? If that is correct - it is a big win - I guess that would make sense for India to negotiate for along with local testing facilities. IMO - Kaveri is not going anywhere - it has a great base and might see the light of day with these techs.

We will learn how to assemble F414s and that is a win. It should help us with Kaveri. See post right above this one.

No hot section coming though.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jun 2023 03:53

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/167 ... 76417?s=20 ---> I think the Navy should donate a MiG-29K to GTRE for use as a flying test-bed for the Kaveri Derivative Engine (Non-afterburning).

https://twitter.com/Tochka21/status/167 ... 97888?s=20 ---> Better to buy a 2nd hand A340. A lot of them are stored after Covid. Plus they would be more safe for testing. More equipment can be stored on them for tests.

https://twitter.com/bheemmz/status/1670 ... 99618?s=20 ---> IAF can also donate IL-76 which are gathering dust due to lack of use.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 20 Jun 2023 05:02

Rakesh wrote: We will learn how to assemble F414s and that is a win. It should help us with Kaveri. See post right above this one.

No hot section coming though.

We always knew no hot section ToT will come thru ever. If this helps in getting Kaveri over the hump closing gaps in core tech and manufacturing tech - along with testing facilities - that is more than a win.

From what i understand - other engine manufacturers were not even offering that.

Maybe we opened up about how far we are with Kaveri and the result is this deal and we will now be able to ask France for testing facilities with the long pending Rafale offsets...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jun 2023 05:23

V_Raman wrote:We always knew no hot section ToT will come thru ever.

Baring one poster, virtually everyone on the forum knew no TOT for the hot section of the turbofan was going to come. The news reports that came out have confirmed that.

V_Raman wrote:If this helps in getting Kaveri over the hump closing gaps in core tech and manufacturing tech - along with testing facilities - that is more than a win.

Lessons learnt from Kaveri + with the lessons (to be) learnt from F414-INS6 assembly, will likely help in key areas for the 110kN turbofan program for AMCA. But at the end of the day, there has to be an ATV* type program for engine development. ATV was a program that got support regardless of the political party in power. The gestation period was long, but the program delivered. That is not there at the moment with regards to low and high bypass turbofans. License production of F414-INS6, RD-33 and AL-31FP turbofans is not the pathway to self reliance.

*Advanced Technology Vessel, precursor to the Arihant SSBN.

V_Raman wrote:From what i understand - other engine manufacturers were not even offering that.

The other engine manufacturers do not have a turbofan for the Tejas Mk2. The closest was RR with the EJ200, but they lost out to GE in 2010. If the EJ200 was the winner, Eurojet would have offered the same.

V_Raman wrote:Maybe we opened up about how far we are with Kaveri and the result is this deal and we will now be able to ask France for testing facilities with the long pending Rafale offsets...

For that we will likely have to see how the MRFA contest plays out.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 20 Jun 2023 06:42

India does have some hot-section technology, and will have to see its compatibility with GE"s engine technology.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jun 2023 07:49

Guys and gal, Not one expert knows whats in the GE engine procurement till it gets signed.

And the usually chatteratti are raising objections without knowing whats in it.
I am sure the MAD team was not born yesterday and it will be all good.
Most importantly Mk2 , TEDBF, and AMCA trio will get engines and fly. Not become penguins or Kiwis.
Ukraine war has cut off the arms procurement boondoggle of writing ASR once the deal is fixed because no one will sell you new stuff.
They busy refurbishing their own inventory feverishly.

And it will be not difficult to cross-pollinate ideas and techniques.
BTW, Dr Thomas is leading the dry Kaveri revival. What it needs is a new afterburner to make it more promising.
Let us not R/D yet.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Jun 2023 11:43

It appears that the US has provided the executive approvals for the GE HAL engine deal and now the process of notifying the US Congress has been started. That should take another 30 days, after which the deal is as good as done.

US seals key jet engine deal ahead of Modi's visit to USA

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 20 Jun 2023 16:52

Kartik wrote:It appears that the US has provided the executive approvals for the GE HAL engine deal and now the process of notifying the US Congress has been started. That should take another 30 days, after which the deal is as good as done.

US seals key jet engine deal ahead of Modi's visit to USA

Normally, wouldn't have cared about all these rah-rah* so-called "news reports", but since you, Kartikji, have posted this, so thought of asking - exactly which one of the so-called "sensitive jet engine technology" is getting shared via this deal.

... sharing a substantial share of sensitive jet engine technology ...

Ofcourse, there are some some carefully-hidden technically challenging aspects, I'm seeing getting mentioned in these reports that are supposedly going to be shared - but whilst those are also very important to master, but they are not exactly in the technology-critical-path of a 4th gen turbofan design and dev initiative domain.

*Note - I can fully understand, as long as these spokespersons pepper their sentences with difficult sounding technical gibberish, which these reporters would have absolutely no clue about anyway, it appear to be difficult and thus sensitive etc.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jun 2023 17:38

Kartik wrote:It appears that the US has provided the executive approvals for the GE HAL engine deal and now the process of notifying the US Congress has been started. That should take another 30 days, after which the deal is as good as done.

US seals key jet engine deal ahead of Modi's visit to USA

Kartik ji,

The amrikis will not steal bidenwa's thunder by announcing such deals ahead of the visit.... This is merely the hors d'oeuvres, the entrée, as it were, and le plat principal is yet to be served.

That serving will be accompanied with drum rolls and fanfare

Something big is coming down the pike and it will be announced during the state visit and that too, from the white house

The GE HAL engine deal looks like it is a part of Modi's atmanirbharta project and also a way for GE to diversify its engine repair and over haul facilities closer to Diego Garcia.

One expects lots of comings and goings of diplomatic passported US military personnel who cannot be arrested in India for any offence

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jun 2023 19:18

Why the 2016 M777 Howitzer deal is a perfect model to follow
https://www.news9live.com/india/why-the ... ow-2184330
20 June 2023

srin · Post by **srin** » 20 Jun 2023 21:31

Really funny that there such a song and dance about so-called TOT etc of F414, while this was already promised 13 years ago in order to win the contract ! This is not a great favour - it is just what was committed already.

But in any case, have we approached Russians for the engine hot section TOT ? Or is it that the Russian tech is old and we want something much more contemporary ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Jun 2023 21:31

Rakesh wrote:Why the 2016 M777 Howitzer deal is a perfect model to follow
https://www.news9live.com/india/why-the ... ow-2184330
20 June 2023

Hmmm do M777's sent to Ukraine have any Indian Manufactured parts, or spare parts for these guns being supplied from India?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jun 2023 21:43

maitya wrote:*Note - I can fully understand, as long as these spokespersons pepper their sentences with difficult sounding technical gibberish, which these reporters would have absolutely no clue about anyway, it appear to be difficult and thus sensitive etc.

BINGO! Well said maitya-ji. Same strategy used in this thread. Sprinkle a few technical words, throw in a pinch of geopolitical fantasy and you have a wonderful narrative. Facts & Reality do not matter to these people.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 20 Jun 2023 22:59

srin wrote:Really funny that there such a song and dance about so-called TOT etc of F414, while this was already promised 13 years ago in order to win the contract ! This is not a great favour - it is just what was committed already.

But in any case, have we approached Russians for the engine hot section TOT ? Or is it that the Russian tech is old and we want something much more contemporary ?

Good idea. Hot section technology can be acquired from Russia -- they won't refuse if given enough dollars, considering their current situation. Procuring the rest from others won't be a problem

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 20 Jun 2023 23:58

With the recent Air India & Indigo airplane orders, India will get the MRO facilities setup for the single aisle aircrafts for both Airbus & Boeing, if not already operational. The next thing would be the setup for MRO facilities for the different LEAP engines that we need in India to avoid situations like GoAir. These and the eventual aviation boom in India during this decade, will eventually lead to manufacturing of Aero engines in a big way. With such an ecosystem, I hope we will eventually overcome the challenges we have endured with the jet engine technology by the end of the decade. The key though is that we need private aerospace companies to pitch in with investments backed by PLI from the GOI and Jet engine technology / manufacturing categorized as National mission.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 21 Jun 2023 08:42

chetak wrote:
sanman wrote:
The Hot part of the engine, and the single-crystal turbine blades are the most crucial, and most difficult to master.
We won't be getting that tech transfer as part of this deal.
the single-crystal turbine blades tech is already available with us and we are using it in an engine that is being made here. Don't know what percentage of indigenization has been achieved in the overall engine per se or even in the single-crystal blade itself.

Both, the engine and the single-crystal blade, seem to be working well enough.

One lab, DMRL is in the midst of a dedicated process to develop and master this tech. Modi seems to have lit a serious fire under all these guys

let's see what else can be dug out

Here's a quote from Bharat Karnad:

https://bharatkarnad.com/2023/06/18/mod ... -into-one/

Possibly, keeping Markey’s warning in mind, the Pentagon is preparing to transfer all but 20% of the tech involved in the 414 engine. That 20%, however, is critical tech relating, as a former IAF officer suggested, to design and production of crystal-edged turbine blades, the very thing GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment), try as it might, has failed to produce and why the indigenous Kaveri engine project has so far not reached fruition. It is a tech void the GE 414 deal won’t fill.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Jun 2023 08:51

Aditya_V wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Why the 2016 M777 Howitzer deal is a perfect model to follow
https://www.news9live.com/india/why-the ... ow-2184330
20 June 2023
Hmmm do M777's sent to Ukraine have any Indian Manufactured parts, or spare parts for these guns being supplied from India?

OT for the thread, the answer is, the parts are being supplied to the US army. What happens after that is their business.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 21 Jun 2023 10:02

sanman wrote:
chetak wrote:
the single-crystal turbine blades tech is already available with us and we are using it in an engine that is being made here. Don't know what percentage of indigenization has been achieved in the overall engine per se or even in the single-crystal blade itself.

Both, the engine and the single-crystal blade, seem to be working well enough.

One lab, DMRL is in the midst of a dedicated process to develop and master this tech. Modi seems to have lit a serious fire under all these guys

let's see what else can be dug out

Here's a quote from Bharat Karnad:

https://bharatkarnad.com/2023/06/18/mod ... -into-one/

Possibly, keeping Markey’s warning in mind, the Pentagon is preparing to transfer all but 20% of the tech involved in the 414 engine. That 20%, however, is critical tech relating, as a former IAF officer suggested, to design and production of crystal-edged turbine blades, the very thing GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment), try as it might, has failed to produce and why the indigenous Kaveri engine project has so far not reached fruition. It is a tech void the GE 414 deal won’t fill.

Bharat Karnad is obviously wrong ...

GE is not transferring > 80% of design and manufacturing tech that goes into F414 - SKD assembly and some system level testing (with the acceptance data also provided by OEM) is not == the tech involved in design, development, certifying and mass-manufacturing of a 4th Gen military turbofan (like 414 engine).

Ofcourse, it has nothing to do with SC tech mastery etc - infact, GTRE/DMRL employed SC tech is slightly better than what goes on in F414, but ofcourse not what is required for the 5th Gen turbofans (aka the 120KN turbofan initiative or what GE will easily put into their EPE program, as they have got that tech long back).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jun 2023 10:50

Thanks Maitya.
Sadly experts with a blunt are to grind are giving gratuitous remarks.
None and I repeat none nows what's in the deal.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Jun 2023 10:52

Pratyush wrote:
Aditya_V wrote: Hmmm do M777's sent to Ukraine have any Indian Manufactured parts, or spare parts for these guns being supplied from India?
OT for the thread, the answer is, the parts are being supplied to the US army. What happens after that is their business.

I am not complaining from Tonbo imaging night sights to M-777 parts, it is good we are supplying to the US MIC.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jun 2023 10:53

ramana wrote:Guys and gal, Not one expert knows whats in the GE engine procurement till it gets signed.

And the usually chatteratti are raising objections without knowing whats in it.
I am sure the MAD team was not born yesterday and it will be all good.
Most importantly Mk2 , TEDBF, and AMCA trio will get engines and fly. Not become penguins or Kiwis.
Ukraine war has cut off the arms procurement boondoggle of writing ASR once the deal is fixed because no one will sell you new stuff.
They busy refurbishing their own inventory feverishly.

And it will be not difficult to cross-pollinate ideas and techniques.
BTW, Dr Thomas is leading the dry Kaveri revival. What it needs is a new afterburner to make it more promising.
Let us not R/D yet.

What I wrote yesterday.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Jun 2023 17:03

IMO the Kaveri has already succeed in its current form.

It's the basis for a 16 MW marine GT.

It will power the Indian UCAV.

It's good enough for the HLFT.

It needs to be persisted with. So that it's successors can power a future Indian fighter.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 21 Jun 2023 17:51

maitya wrote:Bharat Karnad is obviously wrong ...

GE is not transferring > 80% of design and manufacturing tech that goes into F414 - SKD assembly and some system level testing (with the acceptance data also provided by OEM) is not == the tech involved in design, development, certifying and mass-manufacturing of a 4th Gen military turbofan (like 414 engine).

Ofcourse, it has nothing to do with SC tech mastery etc - infact, GTRE/DMRL employed SC tech is slightly better than what goes on in F414, but ofcourse not what is required for the 5th Gen turbofans (aka the 120KN turbofan initiative or what GE will easily put into their EPE program, as they have got that tech long back).

Why are we not able to get more thrust out of Kaveri?

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 21 Jun 2023 18:52

sanman wrote:
maitya wrote:Bharat Karnad is obviously wrong ...

GE is not transferring > 80% of design and manufacturing tech that goes into F414 - SKD assembly and some system level testing (with the acceptance data also provided by OEM) is not == the tech involved in design, development, certifying and mass-manufacturing of a 4th Gen military turbofan (like 414 engine).

Ofcourse, it has nothing to do with SC tech mastery etc - infact, GTRE/DMRL employed SC tech is slightly better than what goes on in F414, but ofcourse not what is required for the 5th Gen turbofans (aka the 120KN turbofan initiative or what GE will easily put into their EPE program, as they have got that tech long back).
Why are we not able to get more thrust out of Kaveri?

Must admit, you got me there ... completely at a loss, how to actually respond to such a completely generalised question.
Anyway, instead of me offering an answer, how about this:
1) One way to go about this is to frame the question as to how to increase the thrust of a low BPR military turbofan engine - and then google around and gradually build the answer.

2) Another way to go about is to do a quick search of my last 10-15 posts in this thread, and you should be able to get the answer.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jun 2023 21:14

@ Maitya-ji: Check this out...

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 32001?s=20 ---> For those wondering, DMRL (Defence Metallurgical Research Lab) has produced Directionally Solidified and Single Crystal Turbine Blades & Vanes - Can this technology be adopted for use on F-414s assuming we aren't getting full single-crystal technology from the US?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/technology-clus ... l/1529/170

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 21 Jun 2023 21:50

Rakesh wrote:@ Maitya-ji: Check this out...

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 32001?s=20 ---> For those wondering, DMRL (Defence Metallurgical Research Lab) has produced Directionally Solidified and Single Crystal Turbine Blades & Vanes - Can this technology be adopted for use on F-414s assuming we aren't getting full single-crystal technology from the US?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/technology-clus ... l/1529/170

Rakeshji, I can provide my non-expert-lay-man-perspective to this - but will require me to write-up a (actually rehash some of my old posts from last 7-8 years) slightly longish post.
However, if Vishnuji is still part of BRF, I'll take the trouble of doing so in an expedite manner ... as maybe, he can then better frame some of the questions to various of his guest-experts, as this topic is going to be flavor of atleast few months now.

Otherwise, all in good time, b/w etc permitting.

Short answer ofcourse is, and again from my non-expert-lay-man pov, yes it can be done, provided US does the following two things:
1) Part with some "related information" regarding the F414-core, which will allow the "integration" of this new indigenously-built-HPT - which obviously they won't

2) Be generous, and allow us to do so (change the HPT itself and then provide enough data to allow the integration itself) but still retain the full warrant support ownership of the engine as a whole - which nobody would, and US wouldn't be no exception

So no joy there, I guess.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Jun 2023 14:59

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Jun 2023 15:59

maitya wrote:
Rakesh wrote:@ Maitya-ji: Check this out...

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 32001?s=20 ---> For those wondering, DMRL (Defence Metallurgical Research Lab) has produced Directionally Solidified and Single Crystal Turbine Blades & Vanes - Can this technology be adopted for use on F-414s assuming we aren't getting full single-crystal technology from the US?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/technology-clus ... l/1529/170
Rakeshji, I can provide my non-expert-lay-man-perspective to this - but will require me to write-up a (actually rehash some of my old posts from last 7-8 years) slightly longish post.
However, if Vishnuji is still part of BRF, I'll take the trouble of doing so in an expedite manner ... as maybe, he can then better frame some of the questions to various of his guest-experts, as this topic is going to be flavor of atleast few months now.

Otherwise, all in good time, b/w etc permitting.

Short answer ofcourse is, and again from my non-expert-lay-man pov, yes it can be done, provided US does the following two things:

1) Part with some "related information" regarding the F414-core, which will allow the "integration" of this new indigenously-built-HPT - which obviously they won't

2) Be generous, and allow us to do so (change the HPT itself and then provide enough data to allow the integration itself) but still retain the full warrant support ownership of the engine as a whole - which nobody would, and US wouldn't be no exception

So no joy there, I guess.

maitya ji,

This is probably in accordance with Modi's atmanirbharta efforts and that is probably the best way to see it. The publicity, for this "engine deal", seems to be a hype that the sold out media is pushing hard, perhaps on payment or the easy access to visas for the media jihadis

The rest, as you have noted is unobtanium. इसका न उम्मीद रखें तो बेहतर होगा. So, presently, we are on our own, still at the tender mercies of the amrikis as far as sanctions are concerned

They are never going to part with anything that has cost them many multiples of tens of billions of $ to develop, the virtually incalculable scientific, engineering and the research man hours involved, the specific high tech processes and unique tooling invented (for this engine), developed, optimized, and perfected, the interaction between the private company and the numerous projects funded by them in hundreds of US universities, the massive DOD funding and research grants which have cross pollinated this and other efforts like this

Ballpark, even $20 -30billion outright payment to a gora company ain't going to cut it.... and that is an estimate on the lower side.

Such tech is very rarely sold to countries like India, if ever.... but engine, nuke sub, and aircraft carrier tech have been transferred in some form or the other by the amrikis, to the frenchies, and the britshits... and maybe even to the japs, and the freeloading cheenis have stolen a lot of such critical tech from the amrikis

and BTW, only someone like the russkis would ever lease a nuke attack sub to us. And to India's credit, the west has not been able to find reason enough to object to this deal, though there have been gloomy grumblings in many gora quarters

India simply (and currently) does not have the industrial infrastructure muscle, the scientific dominance, an academically compatible ecosystem, or even the tech talent required to pull off something like a military rated modern fighter engine

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade but the proper problem definition is critical to finding a solution

I once watched a faceless frenchman who used to ride to work on a Bullet motor cycle, singlehandedly erect a dock side crane of massive proportions, with his team of locally recruited Indian labour which he supervised, despite the language barrier, and completed his job in a matter of weeks, delivered fully tested and accepted by the customer on the very first go.

There was no yelling, or screaming or doing his nut, he arrived on time and left on time, meticulously keeping to office hours, and he worked industriously through the day, with very little time out for breaks in between.

I remember thinking then, as I do now, that we would be really very hard pressed to find such people in India.

We have culturally internalized the organizationally detrimental credit grabbing mindset and institutionalized the ever present 'crab mentality' that is part of our colonial baggage that the britshits so generously gifted to us, narratives that they so effectively used in their divide and rule psyops that persist even today

The amrikis have no such awards like the padmas that is dished out liberally every year. But every babooze, senior "scientists", and civil society glamour guys/gals, politically connected petty businessmen, et al in ye olde Bharat, is hoping to make it to the Indian equivalent of the britshits "Birthday Honours list".

And so, the drivers of motivation, in such a convoluted and labyrinthine climate, remains a complex and tortuous mystery....

And as a society, we still seem transfixed by the concept of a culturally stratified, hierarchically defined, and anthropologically set ideas of stature as exemplified by the moghuls, the britshits and our own indigenous kingdoms of yore...

Why else would judges, babooze, and govt ministers, bollywood actors, petty businessmen, in this day and age, be personally served by turbaned attendants, and why would those in petty positions of power have attendants opening their car doors, carrying their briefcases, bring them tea and water, and what not.. jumping to attention at the sound of a calling bell/buzzer sounded by the "master"...

Is this historically enforced narrative helping or is it actually holding us back, especially in organizations where there is a discernible physical separation in the various layers of hierarchy leading to poor and inefficient communication protocols that ultimately influence work culture and limit delivery potential

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 22 Jun 2023 18:51

chetak sir, you missed - caste, (wa the herirechal a code for that), no ability to write history (perhaps the kingdom of yore, I cannot interpret, but you cannot fault me, afterall I am what you define above), no God (only true ones are well known), language....(allow me time to refer more of economist to find what ahs been missed)...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Jun 2023 19:21

fanne wrote:chetak sir, you missed - caste, (wa the herirechal a code for that), no ability to write history (perhaps the kingdom of yore, I cannot interpret, but you cannot fault me, afterall I am what you define above), no God (only true ones are well known), language....(allow me time to refer more of economist to find what ahs been missed)...

Very true, fanne saar.

I did not want to muddy the waters by bringing in the caste factor but many here already know who dominates the DRDO ecosystem and who dominates the ISRO ecosystem, to name just two premier institutions of immense national importance.

Over the years, many outstanding people have left these organizations because they were not considered to be in "canonical conformity" and hence would never be anointed as part of the chosen cohort whose continuous rise would be systemically enabled.

The non conforming few who punch through are mostly politically patronized either by the likes of ghandhywadi topiwallas (of various hues) or by senior babooze from any stream.

disha · Post by **disha** » 22 Jun 2023 21:38

Do not know where to post this news, so posting it here:

F-414 engine production deal is still in chai-biskoot stage. It will depend on how much biskoots does the Indian side offer up and is it silver or gold biskoots.

Even if India gets to secure the supply chain inputs to an advanced jet engine, it will be a great step forward. Once we have jet engines in "make in India" label, it will help India to design and develop its own advanced jet engine, since the sourcing components (and I assume several hundreds high tech ones) would be readily available.

HAL, General Electric sign MoU to manufacture jet engine, mark new era for India-US defence ties
https://theprint.in/defence/hal-general ... s/1637930/
22 June 2023

HAL, General Electric sign MoU to manufacture jet engine, mark new era for India-US defence ties.

The agreement includes the potential joint production of GE Aerospace’s F414 engines in India, and GE Aerospace continues to work with the US government to receive the necessary export authorisation for this, the American firm said in a statemen

Sources in the defence and security establishment said that an actual deal will be signed once both sides thrash out the nitty gritties and the deal goes through the US Congress, the permission of which will be required.

The clearance from the US Congress is a 30-day process.

Once cleared, HAL will carry out the work at its Engine Division facility in Bengaluru and the co-production will not be through a joint venture, the sources said.

Jet engine technology is seen as the holy grail when it comes to aviation. While a number of countries, including India, make their own fighter aircraft, the technology of engine manufacturing has been aced by only a select few.

Asked about how much of transfer of technology (ToT) is involved given the fact that some reports have put the value at 80 per cent, sources refused to get into the details saying that everything is still under discussion and finer details are yet to be firmed up.

“The level of ToT and the engine manufacturing work done in India will be very significant. This is not an assembly, but joint production that will take place,” a source said.

The sources underlined that the jet engine partnership heralds the beginning of a new era of India-US relationship.

As reported by ThePrint, ToT for jet engines was the main thrust of National Security Advisor (NSA) Ajit Doval’s talks with his American counterpart Jack Sullivan in February when they also operationalised the US-India Initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET).

The F414 engine, which is an afterburning turbofan engine in the 22,000 pound (98 KN) thrust class of engines, was shortlisted by India in 2010 to power the Mark II version of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, which currently comes with GE F404 engine.

Once the engine production starts in the country, the F414 engine will power all future fighter jets including the Tejas Mk II and the indigenous Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) for the Indian Navy.

The Boeing Super Hornets and the Swedish fighter Gripen, both of which are on offer to the Indian military, are among those aircraft that run on this engine.

India is also working on a 5th generation plus fighter known as the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which could be powered through a newer version of a higher thrust class.

Sources said that the road taken for partnership could eventually lead to joint design, development, and manufacture of more powerful engines. As per the schedule plan, the process will involve first making components for the engines in phases before actually moving to the full step up which will take at least a decade, the sources said.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jun 2023 21:57

disha wrote:Even if India gets to secure the supply chain inputs to an advanced jet engine, it will be a great step forward. Once we have jet engines in "make in India" label, it will help India to design and develop its own advanced jet engine

I am afraid this is not true.

Production of F414 in India is just that, Production of F414 in India.

Want to make more powerful engines, cough up $$$$$ please. About a billion a year. Build test facilities. Pay engineers competing salaries. And, hope for the best. Without base data one is only building that base data, then designing a brand new engine.

I am hoping that the techs for the F414 help other efforts. I doubt they will.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 22 Jun 2023 22:16

^^ I was also wondering the same for some years. Every second name you read in these organizations are of the "True God, False God" types. Didn't realize they have a stranglehold. I have seen this gang (all Indians) in some other companies too (one of them an American MNC operating in India), and actively discriminate against Hindus. Basically, one will join, and then he will keep hiring of the same persuasion. Then those who get hired will hire more under them. After some years, a close-knit gang is in operation, with Hindus being edged out to the periphery

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jun 2023 22:39

@Disha: The main positive this deal brings to the table is cementing the future of the Tejas Mk2. With a triple digit order for F414s for the Tejas Mk2, the program can fly (figuratively speaking). No Turbofan = No Tejas Mk2. Other programs (TEDBF and AMCA Mk1) will also use the same turbofan. And the same turbofan powers the F-18SH and Gripen E, participants in the MRCBF and MRFA contests.

So it is a good thing to assemble these turbofans within the country. Also looks good in the annual MoD achievement brochure

But do not buy into all the spin (100% ToT, etc) from these reporters. They are just regurgitating talking points given to them. It is all smoke-and-mirrors. Similar strategy adopted by BRF's risk assessor! Thank goodness for posters like maitya-ji and chetak-ji who put an end to that bokwas.

Number of deals the Americans get (MRCBF, MRFA, etc) will see a proportional increase in Indian ownership of F414 assembly. But still there will never be any ToT. Many of these Indian reporters have zero clue what they are talking about. Classic example at the link below;

https://twitter.com/StratPost/status/15 ... 24640?s=20

The sheer number of lies in the video (above link) is astounding. I called him out (in my twitter replies), but he never responded.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 22 Jun 2023 22:55

somebody needs to come up with a white paper on ToT, know why, Know How, assembly, CKD, SKD, parts from raw material, parts from ingots from ome ETC.

My touchstone is simple,
if all the OEM partners disappeared, can you make the thing in house 100% - we have manufacturing ToT
if all the OEM partners disappeared, can you make the next thing in house 100% - we have 100% know why

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jun 2023 00:10

Aadhi Achint, on Alternative Media/News, said that the French are willing to give anything India wanted. IF true, that is what the US (not GE) is up against. Main difference, GE already has an engine that is better than the F414-INS6, in the EPE. GE has data that is far ahead of what anyone else not called P&W has.

He also stated the BOTH GE and P&W have funded research in India to use lasers in blade formulations!!!!

Go figure.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jun 2023 08:38

NRao wrote:Aadhi Achint, on Alternative Media/News, said that the French are willing to give anything India wanted. IF true, that is what the US (not GE) is up against. Main difference, GE already has an engine that is better than the F414-INS6, in the EPE. GE has data that is far ahead of what anyone else not called P&W has.

He also stated the BOTH GE and P&W have funded research in India to use lasers in blade formulations!!!!

Go figure.

Now the French will give as India has another source.

EPE is vapor ware. Not in full production.