Indian Interests_2

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Not related to India in a direct way but ponder on how Sadat played a weak hand to get Egypt forward in the 1970s.

https://thestrategybridge.org/the-bridg ... ry-victory
...
When Gamel Abdel Nasser unexpectedly died of a heart attack on Sept. 28, 1970, many viewed his vice president, Sadat, as a temporary replacement.[3] Unlike the charismatic and popular Nasser, Egyptians initially viewed Sadat as ineffectual. This assessment, however, was incorrect, and Sadat’s impact proved to be immense.[4] Not only was Sadat faced with the task of stifling political isolation, he also inherited a number of problems from Nasser.

One of the foremost concerns on Sadat’s mind was Egypt’s failing economy. In Sadat’s memoir, he wrote, “The economic legacy Nasser left me was in even poorer shape than the political.”[5] Sadat largely blamed Egypt’s economic woes on its relationship with the Soviet Union, saying that with “crass stupidity” Egypt had “copied the Soviet pattern of socialism.”[6] Sadat’s distaste of communism was reflected during his early presidency when he carried out the Corrective Revolution, shocking Egyptians by dismissing and imprisoning two powerful officials from Nasser’s old regime—Sharawy Gomaa, the Interior Minister, and Sadat’s vice president Ali Sabry, who had close ties with the Soviets.[7]

To bolster Egypt’s collapsing economy, Sadat reoriented emphasis in Egypt’s relations from the Soviet Union to the Unites States. In his memoir, Sadat described Egypt’s relationship with the Soviets as disadvantageous, because “the Russians had practically no relations with anybody.”[8] Several obstacles, however, stood in his way. Sadat believed the situation after the 1967 defeat needed to be redressed to regain Egypt’s self-confidence and the world’s confidence in Egypt. To Sadat, the economic situation was merely one of the facets of the problem.[9]

Another obstacle in the way of reorienting Egypt to the West was the strong relationship between Israel and the United States. Tensions were still high between Israelis and Egyptians. Israel was satisfied with the status quo after capturing the Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula in 1967, which served as potential security buffers. Sadat not only needed to take away Israel’s bargaining chips at the negotiating table, but also convince the United States to pressure Israel to even come to the table. After U.S. President Richard Nixon’s first trip to the Soviet Union in May 1972, however, the policy of détente was issued jointly between the two superpowers, calling for a military relaxation in the Middle East. Sadat viewed this decision as giving in to Israel.[10]

A close adviser to Sadat described him as one who took “big leaps over small steps and often used what he called ‘electric shocks’ to stir up the stagnant waters of diplomacy.”[11] In line with his political style, Sadat decided to wage a limited war against Israel to break the deadlock, forcing the United States to step in and earning a respectable place at the negotiating table at the same time. To achieve a lasting peace with Israel, regain the Sinai, and improve Egypt’s economy, Sadat laid out three objectives:

Restore Arab self-confidence after 1967;
Shatter the Israeli myth of invincibility; and
Alter U.S. policy toward the Arab-Israeli conflict.
By achieving these goals, Sadat would ultimately restructure the Middle Eastern regional order.
..
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Link in above post
THE WAR’S IMPACT IN ISRAEL
While Israel emerged from the war militarily victorious—encircling Suez City and penetrating 20km into Syria—Sadat achieved his goal of destroying Israeli confidence in its security and reorienting U.S. policy in the Middle East. Over 2,800 Israelis died in the war, and 7,500 were wounded. For a small country like Israel, this figure was immense. If compared to U.S. losses in Vietnam, which numbered around 50,000, Americans would have suffered 200,000 dead in proportion to the number of Israelis killed in 1973. Another type of casualty arose in the Israel Defense Forces. Prior to 1973, there were few psychiatric cases resulting from battle. The war, however, produced a high ratio of cases.[46]

After the war, Israelis became obsessed with the question of what went wrong. With mandatory service, all Israeli homes felt the effects of war and called for accountability and an inquiry to investigate the failure of the government and Israeli military. After a series of protests, Meir agreed to the conduct of an investigation, carried out by the Agranat Commission. The investigation criticized Israeli Military Intelligence for failing to provide accurate information pointing to a high probability of war and recommended the termination of its director’s career, among a few others. Its report also found Elazar seriously negligent in his overconfidence in the Israeli military’s ability to repel an attack on two fronts. It criticized him for not ordering a partial mobilization by the morning of October 5 as a precautionary measure and called for his resignation. The commission also criticized the Israel Defense Force for lacking a detailed plan based on realistic assessments of Syrian and Egyptian capabilities in the event of a surprise attack.[47]

While many other military officials received negative evaluations, the commission failed to indict the Israeli political leadership. As a result, there was public outrage and protests throughout the country. Many Israelis felt the commission used the military leadership as a scapegoat for the failure caused by Meir and Dayan. The national turmoil had already affected politics, with Meir’s Labor Party losing six of its previous 57 Knesset seats in the December elections. Meir was unable to form a coalition until March 10, 1974. With public outrage over the report, however, Meir decided to step down as prime minister on April 11, 1974. When another round of elections occurred in 1977, Menachem Begin and the Likud Party came to power, ending the Labor Party’s control of the country, a tenure that had endured since the establishment of the state in 1948.[48]

It is important to note the formation of the Agranat Commission and the political changes within Israel, because they shed light upon the effects caused by the war. One of Sadat’s main objectives in 1973 was the disintegration of Israeli invincibility and confidence in its security. He achieved this by inflicting heavy casualties in a limited war that came as a surprise to Israel. The war humbled his adversary and altered the Israeli political landscape. Furthermore, it brought the Israelis to the negotiating table.
Note the contrast to India's Henderson Brooks Report which focussed on the military only and allowed the political leadership to escape scot-free. Had Nehru resigned in 1962, the entire political history of India would have changed. see how the Labour Party stranglehold on Israel since 1948 ended in 1977. In fairness, India was a uni-party system in 1962 and probably the turmoil would have been chaotic, to say the least.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32594
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by chetak »

India explores barter trade with cash-strapped Egypt.

Egypt can be allowed to settle it's debt through Egyptian products like fuel, gas, and fertilizers, and other items that will be of use to India.

Egypt has shown interest in receiving wheat from India

https://www.livemint.com/news/world/ind ... 51909.html
sanman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 22 Mar 2023 11:02

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sanman »

I find Mr Rajagopalan's reports to be full of juicy info:

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32594
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by chetak »

WA
"Yes we colonized India, but we also gave independence. We called for interim elections in 1946, accepted partition & resigned from India. But what about those who created Azad Hind Fauj, & the navy to mutiny & rise up against an elected govt? Were they very democratic? #BritishIndia #15thAugust

Logic of LeLis!

Image
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2025
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by bala »

Rajiv Malhotra dissects the recent PM Modiji's US visit. Obummer bombed 6 islamic nations during his rule now he wants to shed tears for some Muslims being in danger in India. The blinkered ex-Prez won't say a word about how Hindus are being slaughtered in Pakistan and Bangladesh .. that would be not fitting his middle name.

Rich Indians (Murthy, Mahindra, Piramal, Reliance, etc) keep funding stupid Harvaard projects which are anti-India. US is really playing good cop - bad cop routine. SoreAss, harvaard, google, US deep state players etc are playing against India. Wokeism, LGBTQ, critical race theory are many tools used against India. Many Indians in the US are part of the gang, eg Fareed Zakaria.

There are some positives of Modiji's visit like the GE deal, Semiconductor deal, Predator drones, etc. The US wants young talent to power its economy, a young soldier force from India, a Naval hub in India and much more. India wants to upgrade the nation with technology and strengthen its defence forces (mainly against China). Indians work for many multinationals, but are not taking the lead to be itself producing world products that compete on a world stage. Obedient but not entrepreneurship. ISRO and BARC are good, which established Atomic and Rocket self-sufficiency.

India internally infested with snakes and people with loyalties elsewhere. Vedic education, rewriting the Indian constitution to reflect Indian heritage, and other topics are still pending.

sanman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 22 Mar 2023 11:02

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sanman »

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

USI Journal:
https://www.usiofindia.org/strategic-pe ... flict.html
The Pivot of Geography and The Ukrainian Conflict
Author : Maj Gen Jagatbir Singh, VSM (Retd),



Mackinder held that geography, not economics, is the fundamental determinant of world power; and Russia, simply by virtue of its physical location, inherits a primary global role. Or as Robert Kaplan stated in ‘Revenge of Geography,’ “times of global upheaval, testing as they do our assumptions about the permanence of the political map, lead to a renaissance in thinking about geography”. Is there, therefore, a need to examine the clash between Russia and the West from this larger lens?

Because Ukraine connects Europe and Asia and controls the North of the Black Sea, the Russo-Ukraine conflict today has caused a structural change to the balance between great powers. From the West’s perspective Ukraine forms an integral part of pivot of the region. Surely, they would not give up the opportunity provided by Ukraine’s willingness to draw closer to them and join NATO. This would accord security, economic and political advantage in this vital region, pulling out would send a negative signal of weakness to its other allies in Eastern Europe as being uncertain and unreliable partner when faced with a threat from Russia. A repeat of the message sent out by their sudden withdrawal from Afghanistan which is now resulting in changing contours in West Asia, would be disastrous.

Further, does Russia’s push against Europe’s borderlands evoke the long-standing competition between essentially maritime countries and their land-based, Eurasian challengers?

Thinking about the rivalry that took much of its present form in two turn-of-the-century writings: Alfred Thayer Mahan’s ‘The Influence of Sea Power Upon History’, written in 1890 and Halford John Mackinder’s defining article ‘The Geographical Pivot of History’ published in 1904. More recently, Nicholas Spykman in 1942, propounded what came to be known as the Rimland thesis, which suggested that it was the coasts and peripheries of Eurasia—principally Europe and East Asia—that constituted the basis of geopolitical power.

The basic outlines of both Mahan’s and Mackinder’s concepts of world power are well known. Mahan posited that the determining factor in world power is sea power. The trade-oriented, maritime country, Mahan said, reliably prevails over the land-focused country. He thought that sea power was more important than land power in the fight for dominance. Mackinder’s theory of geopolitics, dominance of Eurasia (the “Heartland”) enables dominance of the outlying continents (the “World-Island”), and such a combination is tantamount to a World Empire whereas Spykman talked of control of the ‘Rimland’ which is essential to control the world.[ii]

Despite centuries of technological progress and human enlightenment, Mackinder believed that geography remained the fundamental constituent of world order, just as it had been during the Peloponnesian War, in which the sea power Athens faced off against Greece’s greatest land Army Sparta. Since then, geopoliticians have argued, most armed conflicts have always featured a stronger Navy against a stronger Amy. Seapower and land power, in other words, are destined to clash. The global seat of land power — inner Eurasia, the territory of the Russian Empire — would forever be in global competition with the sea power, the mantle of which was transferred from Great Britain to the United States.[iii]

The important geostrategic insight of the American political leadership at the end of World War II was that the Atlantic could no longer be the dividing line between East and West. America’s security became inextricably linked with the fate of the Heartland. [iv] The, then, American Chargé d’Affaires in Moscow, George Kennan, sent a ‘long’, now legendary telegram to Washington, where he urged it to implement the ideas of Spykman by containing the power controlling Eurasia. The result was America’s containment strategy. [v]

With the bringing down of the Berlin Wall and the disintegration of USSR the world, it was believed, had become unipolar and Francis Fukuyama had claimed the end of the history with democracy and capitalism as the victors. It was argued that liberalism had won the historic battle of ideas. “What we may be witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such: that is, the endpoint of mankind's ideological evolution and the universalisation of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government”. However, the collapse of Russian communism 1991, did not mark the ideological victory of capitalism, nor “the End of History”.[vi]

It rather designated a new stage in ‘the Clash of Civilisations’ as advocated by Samuel Huntington. He argued that the widespread Western belief in the universality of the West's values and political systems is naïve and that continued insistence on democratisation and such ‘universal’ norms will only further antagonise other civilizations.[vii] Huntington saw the West was reluctant to accept this because it built the international system and wrote its laws. Are we now witnessing a clash between two systems; democracy versus autocracy and a challenge to the liberal world order?

Or can the present crisis be traced to Thucydides; “the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must”. The options before Ukraine and Russia were either black or white; a grey area could have been Ukraine joining EU but not NATO. This neutral approach could have preserved the Ukrainian territorial integrity, offered the prospect of a better living standard for the Ukrainian people and satisfied Russian security concerns. Ukraine could have struck a balance and gained the best of both worlds.

Are we witnessing a pattern of structural stress that results when a rising power challenges a ruling one? This phenomenon is as old as history itself. The Peloponnesian War that devastated ancient Greece, as explained by the historian Thucydides was the rise of Athens and the fear that this instilled in Sparta, that made war inevitable. To paraphrase Graham Allison, a resurgent Russia is ‘Destined for War’. He, of course, had written the book with reference to the rise of China.

Ukraine currently stands at the heart of a new global crisis, pitting Russia against the West. The United States and the European view converge that “a strong, independent Ukraine is an important part of building a Europe whole, free, and at peace”. The rapid expansion of the NATO alliance and the EU, particularly since the 1990s, aims to secure Europe and curtail Russia’s influence over European territory and environs. Recent efforts to incorporate Ukraine under the umbrella of a Western economic and security partnership has tilted the balance, with the extension of Western influence into Russia’s own backyard, in order to bring the eastern gateway firmly under Western control. Russia, if weak in the past, seems now resurgent and though the current conflict aims to regain its own areas of influence. Russia is unlikely to allow the West to expand any further East to achieve its objectives and is viewing this as an existential crisis.

In the struggle between the West and Russia over influence in the ‘buffer zones’, geography has shaped and continues to shape their respective strategies regardless of the historical period or the circumstances. These so-called ‘buffer zones’ generally refer to Eastern and Central European states, even if for the most part these states have now joined NATO and/or the EU, leaving just two contested states – Ukraine and Belarus – to constitute the last barrier separating the West and its allies from Russia. Together they extend along the greater part of this ‘gateway’, the open land corridor stretching from the Black Sea to the Baltic Sea.[viii]

Russia still values the importance of the entire area occupied by the former Soviet Union as ‘regions of privileged interests for Russia’; Not surprising then that Russian President Vladimir Putin referred to the collapse of the Soviet Union as ‘a major geopolitical disaster’.

President, Boris Yeltsin, who sought integration with the West, concluded that while the ideological struggle prevalent during the Cold War was ruled out, the struggle to achieve strategic goals was still alive. Russia closely watched the West expanding its influence towards Eastern Europe by means of NATO and EU membership. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov considered Western strategic behaviour as “spreading … geopolitical influence to the East, which has become, in essence, ‘a new edition’ of the policy to contain Russia’.[ix]

President Putin’s desire to irreversibly absorb Eastern Ukraine into his desired territory can be reduced to two main factors relating to these theories: access to warm water ports, aligning with Spykman’s ‘Rimland’, and the expansion and protection of Eastern land power, reflecting Mackinder’s ‘Heartland’. In a globalised world, the ability to trade with ease brings economic leverage, and leverage brings power.[x]

For a country with such vast coastal territory, Russia has appallingly bad access to global sea routes and trading, with many ports frozen year-round. The Crimean Port of Sevastopol is, hence, vital in providing warm water access to global shipping routes and allowing the Russian military control into the Black Sea and further beyond. Secondly, any Westwards territorial expansion is deemed as advantageous to the Russian regime, who see the US and NATO as a threat.

All countries must make decisions as to where they direct their resources. Resources are finite, including for the United States. For centuries, the exponents of Sea Power have prevailed by devoting the resources necessary to preserve freedom of navigation and to deny any Heartland aggressor use of the seas as a route for expansion.[xi]

The region between the Black and Baltic Seas represents the Eastern gateway leading to the West, but can be also viewed as the Western gateway leading to the East. Russia has not forgotten the invasions of Napoleon and Hitler via this gateway. Moscow has resorted to both soft and hard power in its efforts to consolidate a sphere of influence in the inner Eurasian heartland of the former USSR called the Eurasian Union.

In the present conflict, Russia quickly blockaded Ukraine by closing the Kerch Strait, which connects the smaller Sea of Azov to the Black Sea and established complete control of the Sea of Azov, and by stationing ships off Odessa and other Ukrainian ports blockaded Ukraine from the sea. This ensured that it eliminated the ability to resupply the Ukrainian military via the sea, which could have moved far more material, far more quickly towards the fighting in the East rather than from the Polish border across the entire length of the country.[xii]

The Russian invasion of Ukraine appears, on the surface, to be a land war but we also need to appreciate the central role the seas and naval power play in securing strategic security interests. [xiii]To be a major power, Russia needs to control not only the heartland but also the rimland and thereafter control the seas. Hence to paraphrase Mackinder;

Those who control the Heartland, command the Rimland

Those who control the Rimland, command the World Islands

Those who control the World Islands, command the World

Throughout history, geography has been the stage on which nations and empires have collided. Geography is the most fundamental factor in international politics because it is the most permanent. For that reason, geography also shapes the perspectives of leaders and, thereby, influences their decision-making in matters of foreign policy. It is thus, imperative that we build on the insights, and theories of great geographers and geopolitical thinkers to look at the evolving global scene. Zbigniew Brzezinski in his book ‘The Grand Chessboard’ quoted Napoleon; “to know a nations geography is to know its foreign policy”.


Endnotes

Robert D. Kaplan, The Ukrainian Pivot: Why NATO Is More Crucial Than Ever, The National Interest, February 24, 2022, https://nationalinterest.org/feature/uk ... ver-200805

[ii] Thomas D. Grant, Europe’s Borderlands and China’s Challenge: Why War in Ukraine Matters, The SAIS Review of International Affairs, March 12, 2022 https://saisreview.sais.jhu.edu/europes ... n-ukraine/

[iii] Charles Clover, The Unlikely Origins of Russia’s Manifest Destiny, National Interest, July 27, 2016 https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/07/27/ge ... iny-putin/

[iv] Dieter Dettke, Geopolitics in the Trump Era: The Dual Challenge of Russia and China for Europe and the Need for a New Containment Strategy, American German Institute, February 22, 2019 https://aicgs.org/2019/02/geopolitics-i ... -strategy/

[v] Office of the Historian, Department of State , George Kennan and Containment, https://history.state.gov/departmenthis ... ory/kennan

[vi] Fukuyama, F. (1989). The End of History? The National Interest, 16, 3–18. http://www.jstor.org/stable/24027184

[vii] Akhil Ramesh, The US needs India, and much more, to make inroads into the Global South, The Hill March 28, 2023 https://thehill.com/opinion/internation ... bal-south/

[viii] Kaddorah, E. (2014). Flashpoint Ukraine: The Pivot of Geography in Command of the West’s Eastern Gateway. Arab Center for Research & Policy Studies. http://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep12661

[ix] Kaddorah, E. (2014). Flashpoint Ukraine: The Pivot of Geography in Command of the West’s Eastern Gateway. Arab Center for Research & Policy Studies. http://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep12661

[x] Ezra Sharpe, Back to the future: Putin’s return to classical geopolitics, The Cherwell, January 17, 2022, https://cherwell.org/2022/01/17/back-to ... opolitics/

[xi] Thomas D. Grant, Europe’s Borderlands and China’s Challenge: Why War in Ukraine Matters, The SAIS Review of International Affairs, March 12, 2022 https://saisreview.sais.jhu.edu/europes ... n-ukraine/



[xii] BJ Armstrong, The Russo-Ukrainian War At Sea: Retrospect And Prospect, War on the Rocks, April 21, 2022 https://warontherocks.com/2022/04/the-r ... -prospect/

[xiii] BJ Armstrong, The Russo-Ukrainian War At Sea: Retrospect And Prospect, War on the Rocks, April 21, 2022 https://warontherocks.com/2022/04/the-r ... -prospect/



Major General Jagatbir Singh, VSM (Retd) is a Distinguished Fellow at the USI of India. Commissioned in 1981 into the 18 Cavalry, he has held various important command and Staff appointments including command of an Armoured Division.



Very nice paper. We need to take these concepts and think about Indian geography and hence its foreign policy.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

https://www.usiofindia.org/publication- ... ngler.html
Indian Civilisation from the Perspective of Oswald Spengler
Author : Major General (Dr) RS Thakur (Retd),




Abstract

On 20 October 2022, the author gave a talk at Blankenheim, German Eiffel, during the Spengler Conference 2022, on ‘Relevance of Moral Philosophy of Oswald Spengler to Indian Civilisation and His Remembrance in the Indian Academic Landscape’. This article, based on the above talk, is an outcome of the research carried out by the author into the writings of the famous German historian Oswald Spengler and covers the essence of his thoughts on world history, major civilisations, and his prophecies. The article gives an insight in to his outlook on many aspects of Indian civilisation, including the imperial nature of few Indian dynasties, Buddhism, and Indian philosophy. Various works of Spengler and his historical concepts and prophecies are also be discussed here. An endeavour has been made to present the history of the Indian civilisation, from the perspective of Oswald Spengler, to help the Indian strategic and academic community to have a better understanding of their civilisation.

Introduction

In recent times, the existing historiography concerning Indian history is under scrutiny and there is much emphasis on re-writing the Indian history from new perspectives or using fresh sources. As such, looking at Indian history with plural perspectives around the world, rather than from a single narrow viewpoint, will facilitate the Indian strategic community to imbibe a holistic understanding of our past. There exists a popular perception in India that the westerners have largely considered the Indian civilisation as some what inferior when compared to their own civilisation.

Contrary to this popular perception, the strengths of the Indian civilisation and the wisdom of ancient Indians, were acknowledged a century ago by none other than the renowned German historian and philosopher, Oswald Spengler (29 May 1880- 08 May 1936).Spengler is known for his book ‘Der Untergang des Abendlandes’ originally published in German (subsequently translated in English as ‘The Decline of the West’), in which he has highlighted the uniqueness and spiritual nature of the Indian culture, along with the detailed study of seven other cultures, i.e., Egyptian, Chinese, Classical Antiquity, Mexican, Babylonian, Islamic and Western (Faustian).


Spengler: An unorthodox Historian and Philosopher

Eighty-six years after his death, Oswald Spengler remains one of the most controversial yet, a fascinating historian and philosopher of twentieth century. He stands out as a brilliant historian who challenged the traditional idea of endless linear progress of civilisations, and propounded that civilisations follow a cyclic pattern.1 Spengler advocated, with a kind of fatalism,2 that every civilisation, just like an organism, goes through phases of youth, maturity, and eventual decline.3 As per him, the period of about 900 years of dominance of the west was over and its decline commenced sometime in 1800.4 He further substantiated his argument about the end of civilisation by stating that Patliputra, the capital city of many empires in the ancient India as also the largest city in the world during the Mauryan Empire, was found abandoned amidst a vast mass of empty houses as seen by Hsuan Tsang in the year 635 AD. Spengler further added that every civilisation, confined in a given geographical area exists like a closed system free from interference from external factors. His cyclic theory as well as the comment about the decline of the western civilisation invoked strong criticism from many historians and academicians.5

{Linear history is a biblical concept. Anything that challenges it is seen as heresy. Caroll Quigley too has a cyclical description of the history of civilizations. And any open-minded study of history shows a cyclical pattern.}

Spengler was inspired by the writings of the German philosopher, Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900) and the latter’s views on European thought. Spengler’s ideas were also greatly influenced by Johann Wolfgang Goethe and had much similarity with those of the Greek philosopher, Plato.6 He commenced work on 'The Decline of the West’ in 1911 and the first volume of the book was published in 1918. The book, which proclaimed that the first World War was a predestined event as part of the larger world-historical rhythm and manifestation of the historical phase of the preceding centuries, provided much-needed philosophical succour to the German public and academic community who were still smarting under the humiliating defeat at the hands of Allied Forces.7 The book was a resounding success and was read widely within and outside Germany.8 It was soon translated into many other languages. His second book ‘Prussianism and Socialism’ was published in 1919. This is another thought-provoking book that gives out a comparative analysis of the political ideologies of Britain and Germany.

The third book by Spengler, ‘Man and Technics’published in 1931, highlighted the pitfalls of technology and industrialisation. The book mentioned the likelihood of the proliferation of Western technology to other regions of the world. The fourth and the last book by Spengler ‘The Hour of Decision’ was published in 1934. The book, critical of the racial theories propagated by the Nazis, also became immensely popular, however, it was banned subsequently by the Nazi regime. As Spengler found the approach of the Nazis towards Jews, as also their biological ideology, unacceptable, he fell out with Hitler sometime in 1934, a year after the latter assumed the Chancellorship of Germany.

Spengler’s views on world history were criticised by some of his contemporaries. However, his writings inspired millions of people and also influenced many leading personalities. Henry Kissinger, the former Secretary of State of USA, discussed in great detail about Spengler’s ideas in his thesis ‘The Meaning of History: Reflections on Spengler, Toynbee and Kant’, submitted to Harvard University in 1950. Ludwig Wittgenstein, the famous Austrian philosopher, had stated that Spengler was one of his main inspirations. Spengler’s thoughts also influenced the writings of Joseph Campbell, Martin Heidegger, and many other philosophers.

Spengler’s views on concept of History Writing

Spengler, in ‘The Decline of the West’ dismissed the traditional way of looking at the world history on the ground that it is too narrow and flawed. He added that there is a need to view world history from new perspectives. He also remarked that the world history cannot be holistically comprehended by the existing periodisation of history in terms of ancient, medieval, and modern. Spengler remarked that the notion held by most western writers that world history should be focused around west; the highest civilisation, similar to the Ptolemic theory, is faulty. He also observed that as per the perception of the West, the history of the cities such as Athens, Florence, and Paris are accorded greater relevance than Loyang or Patliputra. Spengler enunciated his own Copernican model by which history should not be the life story of only one civilisation, but that of many civilisations.

Spengler writes that cities are the essence of a civilisation, which facilitate the understanding of the political and economic history of that civilisation. In addition to the mention of the other world-cities such as Paris, Rome, Thebes, and Baghdad, Spengler has highlighted that the large cities of Ujjain, Kanauj and Patliputra were equally evolved and known even in China and Java.9

Major Predictions made by Spengler

In addition to his brilliant book, ‘The Decline of the West’, Spengler is admired for his various prophecies some of which eventually came true. In 1936, months before he died, he wrote in a letter to his friend, Hans Frank, that the ‘thousand-year Reich’ of Hitler would not last beyond 1946. At that time, no one believed him as the Nazis seemed all powerful then. He was much condemned for saying so and faded into oblivion thereafter. However, when in 1945 his statement was proven right, his writings were re-discovered in a big way.

In 1933, Spengler foretold that just like the Hague Conference of 1907 paved the way for the First World War, similarly the Washington Naval Treaty of 1921 will also result in another World War. These predictions came true. In his ‘Man and Technics’, he correctly predicted, in 1931 that in the future the labour force of Europe would be replaced with the labour force from third world countries.

Spengler also stated that after 2000 AD, cities will grow to mega-cities of 10-20 million inhabitants that will be spread over huge areas and will surpass the biggest cities existing in his era. This prediction can be validated by the fact that as per UN 2018 population estimate, 33 cities around the world have a population of more than 10 million people. Lastly, Spengler in 1917 had also predicted the collapse of communism in the erstwhile USSR, a prophecy that came true in 1990.

Spengler’s views on Indian Civilisation

Spengler has written about multiple aspects of Indian history in ‘The Decline of the West’. He writes that as per his analysis, the culture of India including the cultures of Babylon, China, Egypt, the Arabs, and Mexico are as significant as the western cultures and, in fact, over shadowed the latter in terms of spirituality. He further adds that unlike the western civilisation, which possesses high level of historical sense, the Indian mind was spiritually inclined, and inwardly focused, and, therefore, did not concern much about recording the physical world10 around it. As a result, the chronological recording of various historical events is inadequate and less accurate.11

Spengler laid lot of emphasis on Buddhism and stated that ‘Buddhism is not a religion at all in the sense of Vedas’. This is because, as per him, Buddhism did not impose any restrictions or code of conduct on its followers. He further added that the Indian philosophical thought of soul attaining its ultimate aim and release from the cycle of life was also influenced by Buddhism towards new thoughts.12

Spengler also brought out the imperialistic nature of Mauryan and Sunga dynasties in India during the period 321 BC to 185 BC, during which the Mauryan Empire had expanded its reach to the whole of northwestern empire. He adds that during that era came a rare occasion in history when the Indian Buddhist culture could have come in contact with the Chinese Confucian and the classical Stoic cultures. However, Spengler also qualifies further by stating that owing to the Indian nature, these endeavours did not succeed beyond a point.13

Apart from the ancient Indian imperialist efforts, Spengler also talks about the French imperialistic efforts and explains how providence prevented Napoleon from establishing a French colonial empire in India in the early nineteenth century. He refers to the incident of 14 February 1804, when the fleet led by Charles-Alexandre-Leon Durand Linois was defeated by the naval force of British East India Company in the Indian Ocean. Spengler opines that this small naval action led to a rethink of strategy and the French Government cancelled their plans to invest more forces against the British in India. Spengler states further that Tsar Alexander’s denial of support to Napoleon was another reason for this decision. Incidentally, similar opportunity came to France in 1754, when efforts by Dupleix, the then Governor of Pondicherry made significant progress in colonising India. However, these efforts were disregarded and Dupleix was recalled to France by the Versailles Court under Louis XV.

Spengler as viewed by Indian Philosophers

Many Indian philosophers and historians have commented upon the works of Spengler. PC Chatterji has referred to Spengler while writing about the birth and death of civilisations, as explained by the Irish poet, William Butler Yeats. Yashdev Shalya, on the other hand, has classified Spengler, along with Hegel, Marx, Puranas, and the Christian philosophy as historicists those who view history as a goal-oriented process.14

Interestingly, Devadoss has done a comparative analysis between the ideologies of Schopenhauer, Mahatma Gandhi and Oswald Spengler.15 Schopenhauer regarded Buddha and Christ as ideal personalities for their self-sacrifice and renunciation of the world whereas, Spengler viewed fact and power as more important. However, Gandhi’s ideology combined both the facets: moral idealism and political success.

Another Indian philosopher, Raghuramaraju has highlighted that many Indian philosophers have not correctly understood the Western philosophy, referring to the ‘Decline of the West’. MN Roy has drawn a comparison of the cyclic theory of civilisations by Spengler to a similar theory conceived by the Italian philosopher, Giambattista Vico in the eighteenth century.16 BK Jha speaks of Spengler’s thoughts while describing the concept of trans-humanism. He refers to the Spengler’s dream of the formation of a world community as the final stage of evolution of major civilisations of the world.17 Oroon Kumar Ghosh was also influenced by Spengler’s writings as is evident from ‘Convergence of Civilisation’, written by the former. Lastly, the famous Indian philosopher, Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, while talking about the history of mankind and cosmos, refers to the cyclic theory of Spengler to fully explain the historical concept.18

Relevance of Moral Philosophy of Spengler to the Indian Civilisation

India has recently completed the seventy-fifth year of its independence. As a nation known for its spirituality and ancient wisdom, and striving for overall growth, what can we learn from Spengler’s historical concepts? Should we, like some other civilisations in the past, fall in the trap of adopting the Ptolemic model and describe own culture as the centre of gravity and the most dynamic in the hierarchy of civilisations? Such a standpoint has often led nations to a destruction path. Or should we follow the Copernican model as advocated by Spengler and take a rational view of other civilisations based on factual position and critical analysis, with the aim to imbibe their strengths and shun their weaknesses for refinement of our civilisation? Does the greatness of our nation not consist in working towards the goal of ‘Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam’, as enunciated in Maha Upanishad, and contribute towards overcoming the larger goal of numerous challenges that the world community faces today?

The study of ‘The Decline of the West’ clearly reveals that the Greek, Roman, and Egyptian civilisations had an advanced system of recording history. The Egyptians preserved their history through stone memorials and hieroglyphic script, which can be read today, even after a passage of 4000 years. However, the ancient India apparently did not give requisite focus towards this aspect, as stated by many historians. As such, a significant period of Indian ancient history has not been recorded at all. Moreover, a large part of Indian history is reconstruction of events by Western writers/academicians from various texts and monuments or travel accounts by foreigners. This aspect of incorporating a well-structured system of history writing needs to be imbibed by Indian culture.

Conclusion

The article has made an attempt to provide a glimpse into the works of Oswald Spengler, a controversial yet revered German historian. Spengler has given an in-depth analysis about various aspects of the eight major civilisations of the world, including the Indian civilisation, whose uniqueness and strengths have been brought out in a manner very few western historians have done so far. Spengler’s writings and his great insight into world history has much relevance to the Indian academicians even after passage of a century. An endeavour has also been made to bring out the relevance of Spengler’s thoughts to India; in its current journey towards growth and accomplishment of the goal of ‘Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam’.

Endnotes

1 Charles Van Doren, The Idea of Progress, Frederick A Praeger Publishers, New York,1967, pp 117-118.

2 DP Chattopadhyay, Knowledge Freedom and Language, Motilal Banarasidass Publishers, Delhi, 1989, p 141.

3 Theodor Oizerman, Problems of the History of Philosophy, Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1973, p 380.

4 CEM Joad, Counter Attack from the East: The Philosophy of Radhakrishnan, George Allen & Unwin Ltd, London, 1933, p 10.

5 Arthur Koestler, Insight and Outlook, Macmillan & Co. Ltd, 1949, p 158.

6 Lily Abegg, The Mind of East Asia, Thames and Hudson, London, p 320.

7 John Edward Sullivan, Prophets of the West, Holt, Rinehart and Winston Inc, New York, 1970, pp 165-169.

8 Will Durant, The Story of Philosophy, Pocket Books, New York, 1953, p 344.

9 Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West, Vintage Books, New York, pp 246-247.

10 Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West, Vintage Books, New York, pp 11-12.

11 William S Haas, The Destiny of the Mind, East and West, Faber and Faber, London, pp 46-47.

12 Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West, Vintage Books, New York, p 244.

13 Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West, Vintage Books, New York, p 237.

14 Yashdev Shalya, Perspectives in Philosophy, Indo-Bulgarian Philosophical Studies, Ajanta Books International, New Delhi, 1995, p 265.

15 Anand Amaladass, Sebasti L Raj, Jose Elampassery, Philosophy and Human Development, Satya Nilayam Publications, Madras, 1986, p 140.

16 MN Roy, Reason, Romanticism and Revolution, Renaissance Publishers Ltd, Calcutta, 1952, p 216.

17 P George Victor, Teaching Philosophy in the Twenty-First Century, DK Printworld (P) Ltd, New Delhi, 2002, p 75.

18 Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan,” An Idealist View of Life”, George Allen & Unwin Ltd, London, pp 20, 64.



@Major General (Dr) RS Thakur (Retd) is pursuing post-doctoral research on “German Response to the Indian Revolt of 1857” from Goethe University, Frankfurt under Prof. Dr. Andreas Fahrmeir. His article “Indian Revolt of 1857: Was Leadership a Prime Factor in Deciding the Outcome of the Revolt?” was published by National Defence College, New Delhi in October 2022.

Journal of the United Service Institution of India, Vol. CLII, No. 630, October-December 2022.
Share:

Two things: Need to read the 'Decline of the West!'
Second is Geroge Soros inspired by Oswald Spengler?
Varoon Shekhar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2178
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 23:26

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Spengler didn't think much of India's scientific achievements, if he was even aware of them. He was impressed by Indian art. People like Elst, Frawley, Armstrong , Gauthier et al, are much more balanced and holistic in their awareness and appreciation of India
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

He was way before all these folks and in his time Inda was under occupation for over 900 years.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Chetak, A question for you to think about.

Is the Congress 2008 Beijing Accord between Rahul Gandhi and XJP similar to the Vichy France accord with Hitler?

Congress has not recovered from its 1962 defeat by China.
Vichy France had been defeated by Hitler.
Varoon Shekhar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2178
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 23:26

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

ramana wrote:He was way before all these folks and in his time Inda was under occupation for over 900 years.
No question, but it is that dismissive tone he had, in his reference to science in India. Nobody now will accept the idea that India was a land purely of art, religion and philosophy. With no science or industry. It would be laughable.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

It is a trait we have to look for one bad thing and keep that in mind.
Yet our ancestors had the wisdom to say we will take the best that the world can offer and retain what is ours.

When Spengler wrote his thing India was under the British boot and hardly any modern scientific thing going on.
Hriday
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 81
Joined: 15 Jun 2022 19:59

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Hriday »

On the 10th page of the Indian Interests_2 thread, I had written about several pieces of supporting evidence for the science of astrology. I also said that astrology is worth considering as a major component of the soft power of Hinduism.

Writing a bit more about astrology which I missed including earlier. I am writing about the personal experiences of my relative. There is a Christian lady in Kalathipady, Kottayam, Kerala who practices astrology. She learnt it from her father and her brother also practices astrology. She is well known in her locality as a very good astrologer. Locals say that her clients include prominent Christians such as priests and MLA. She remains unmarried because of lack of support from the Church.

Don't know what she recommended as remedies for the life problems of Christian clients. My Hindu relative told her that he was mainly into mental Sadhana of worshipping a single Ishta Devata and was not interested to observe other Hindu customs such as offerings for various Hindu deities. She replied that the various Hindu deities are there for specific reasons similar to various arms in civil organisations and are recommended by Rishis. She cited the many successes of her clients and said that she would regularly visit prominent temples for worship. As per my relative, her accuracy in the predictions is well above 90 per cent.

Priyanka @AstroAmigo also strongly recommend several Hindu remedies such as specific mantras of certain deities for a certain duration at a certain time etc. She also mentioned the successful results obtained by her clients after practising these remedies.

On seeing the above one can understand why temples of various deities are very important.

Swami Rama who is famous for displaying superhuman body control in front of Western doctors once mentioned that a similar thing happened in his youthful period in his autobiography. He once disobeyed his Guru and read and chanted a black magic mantra. When the chant count reached very near the specific count recommended in the text, two very large nude men and a woman appeared in front of him. They looked at him and talked about eating him. He fainted in fear. When he opened his eyes, his Guru was nearby and repeatedly kicking and scolding him for disobedience. The nude persons had disappeared.

A knife can be used as a surgical tool to help a man from death. The same knife can be easily used to kill him also. There is still a lot to do for spreading basic awareness of Hinduism. I still see a lot of Hindus who would cringe at the mention of mantras or astrology.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12356
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Chetak, A question for you to think about.

Is the Congress 2008 Beijing Accord between Rahul Gandhi and XJP similar to the Vichy France accord with Hitler?

Congress has not recovered from its 1962 defeat by China.
Vichy France had been defeated by Hitler.
1) It could be.

But, it is not something that should be. Because India was ruled by the family until 89 and PVNR till 96.

Those PM s were not in awe of PRC. Nor was the Congress party by extension.

Therefore, they had no need to fall in line in front of PRC.

2) The current branch of the family is unique in its lack of confidence in the future of India.

Thus, it's possible for them to act in a way that undermines Indian interests in different ways.

The sabotage of the MMS days. The constant running down of Indian accomplishments post MMS days is a demonstration of this lack of belief. Not just politics.

So it's possible for them to sign such a treaty subordinating India to PRC.

3) However, the counter argument against the above is the background in which, MMS approved the creation of 2 mountain strike corps. Following his visit to Beijing, sometime in 2012.

What changed in 2012?
sanman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 22 Mar 2023 11:02

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sanman »



Definitely our best foreign minister yet
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2025
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by bala »

Discovery of Hinduphobia & how Hindus are asserting by Rajiv Malhotra.

Rajeev Malhotraji, an intellectual kshatriya, a MahaRishi avatar, is doing a super job for Hindus and their philosophy to counter Hinduphobia. There is an "industry" of people employed in academic circles in the US, Britain, Europe, etc whose sole agenda is furthering anti-Hinduism in various ways subtle and overt. They paint a dismal often incorrect unethical version and highlight British created nonsense like Caste (Casta in portuguese), Sati, Women-hatred in India, Devadasi and much more. However the core concepts in Hinduism like Brahman, Consciousness, Devas and Devati, Idols (prana pratishta) for worship are avoided like the plague. There is open ridicule of Hindu practices in the West without any understanding of the origins/know-how-why of such practices. The Bindi is laughed upon, veshti/dhoti/kurta etc are put down/frowned upon.



It is becoming increasingly clear that Western ideas are all rubbish, e.g. big bang is now in the dust after Webb telescope found 500+ galaxies. Vedas talk about infinity (purnum) and infinite universes. Much of math/science is borrowed from India. Newton pilfered calculus and all 3 physics laws (from Vaisheshika Sutra of Kanad Maharishi), relativity is mentioned in the Vedas including time dilation, energy and mass are the same underlying phenomenon, so is creation/destruction (a form that is manifested from Sankhya).
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2025
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by bala »

Indian Knowledge revolution in the Nehru Centre of London! Continuing on the theme of Rishi Rajiv Malhotra's stupendous effort in asserting the India viewpoint in International forums, a string of research papers/books on India's knowledge based (pilfered left right and center by the West) with actual evidence and yes peer reviewed too, gathered over a period of 30 years.

राजीव मल्होत्रा इनफिनिटी फ़ौंडेशन



BTW Rajivji talks about verifiable evidence and thus rules out Vimana.

However, there is a Chakra Vimana painting on a wall at Tirumalai Jain Temple in South India. Shivkar Bapuji Talpade flew an unmanned flying saucer MARUTSHAKTI eight years before the Wright Brothers flew their plane in 1903. It was an advanced Vedic Mercury ion plasma, imploding and exploding vortex, noiseless flying machine, which could move in all directions. Shivkar’s wife was very technically savvy and was his partner on the day the flight of MARUTSHAKTI took place. The airplane was aloft at nearly 200 meters height and was airborne for 18 minutes. After that the small Naksha Rasa accumulators ran out of energy. This feat was witnessed by more than three thousand people, including Britishers, at Chowpatty beach in 1895, eight years before the Wright brothers. The incident literally sent shock waves to the British who ruled India at that time. Bal Gangadhara Tilak, the editor of Kesari Pune, had written an editorial on Talpade. It was also reported by two other English newspapers, albeit a rather terse account. Eminent Indian Judge, Mahadeva Govinda Ranade and King of Baroda, H H Sayaji Rao Gaekwad witnessed the flight. The Maharaja of Baroda was summoned by East India Company bosses and warned not to finance any such projects, failing which they would take away his Kingdom. In an atmosphere of intimidation and dire consequences, pretty soon Talpade’s co-partner and wife died mysteriously and Talpade, without his wife and finances, went into deep depression and died in 1916.

The Vedic texts in Sanskrit were taken to Germany by Hermann Gundert. The ion engine was then demonstrated by German-born NASA scientist Ernst Stuhlinger. The use of ion propulsion systems were first demonstrated in space by the NASA Lewis “Space Electric Rocket Test - SERT”. These thrusters used mercury as the reaction mass. The first was SERT 1, launched July 20, 1964, successfully proved that the technology operated as predicted in space. The second test, SERT-II, launched on February 3, 1970, verified the operation of two mercury ion engines for thousands of running hours.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5510
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Cyrano »

Srilankans also can make such a claim based on Ravana's vimana used to abduct Sita. And so can Ayodhyavaasis today because even Shri Ram returned with Sita and his entourage from Lanka in a vimana.

Imagination can go to some extent in theoretical physics. Regarding the nature of the universe for example. But Verne's ether, phlogiston were just imaginations. So was Well's anti gravity generator and Cavorite.

When I was a kid, there was a serial story in chandamama titled "The Gandharva Emperor's Daughter". She and her girlfriends donned a flying suit to just lift off from their palace and go visiting places and have fun at will. In 1991 there was a jet (back)pack movie called The Rocketeer. Today we have the tech thats making this a reality.

Unless someone builds a working vimana that performs as advertised, its just wonderful imagination. All vignana needs pramana before it can be elevated to any nirdharita sutra or formalised as shaashtra.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

The Birth of Modern Politics: Andrew Jackson, John Quincy Adams, and the Election of 1828
Lynn Hudson Parsons

The 1828 presidential election, which pitted Major General Andrew Jackson against incumbent John Quincy Adams, has long been hailed as a watershed moment in American political history. It was the contest in which an unlettered, hot-tempered southwestern frontiersman, trumpeted by his supporters as a genuine man of the people, soundly defeated a New England "aristocrat" whose education and political sum were as impressive as any ever seen in American public life. It was, many historians have argued, the country's first truly democratic presidential election. It was also the election that opened a Pandora's box of campaign tactics, including coordinated media, get-out-the-vote efforts, fund-raising, organized rallies, opinion polling, campaign paraphernalia, ethnic voting blocs, "opposition research," and smear tactics. In The Birth of Modern Politics, Parsons shows that the Adams-Jackson contest also began a national debate that is eerily contemporary, pitting those whose cultural, social, and economic values were rooted in community action for the common good against those who believed the common good was best served by giving individuals as much freedom as possible to promote their own interests. The book offers fresh and illuminating portraits of both Adams and Jackson and reveals how, despite their vastly different backgrounds, they had started out with many of the same values, admired one another, and had often been allies in common causes. But by 1828, caught up in a shifting political landscape, they were plunged into a competition that separated them decisively from the Founding Fathers' era and ushered in a style of politics that is still with us today.
I submit the 2014 elections in India were similar.
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2025
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by bala »

Cyrano wrote: 13 Jul 2023 21:42 Unless someone builds a working vimana that performs as advertised, its just wonderful imagination. All vignana needs pramana before it can be elevated to any nirdharita sutra or formalised as shaashtra.
Cyranoji, there is an actual photo of Talpade's MARUTSHAKTI flying over Mumbai's Chowpatty Beach (I have one copy). Tis not imagination anymore but wilful suppression of the Indian spirit to demonstrate that gyan of the ancients.

Talpade studied and consulted a number of Vedic treatises like Brihad Vaimanika Shastra of Maharishi Bharadwaja, Vimanachandrika of Acharya Narayan Muni, Viman yantra of Maharishi Shownik, Yantra Kalp by Maharishi Garg Muni, Viman Bindu of Acharya Vachaspati and Vimana Gyanarka Prakashika of Maharishi Dhundiraj. Vaimaanika Shastra explains in detail the metals and alloys and other required material, which can make an aircraft. Many of these scripts have been carted of by the Britshits to Germany and Oxford and they will not share the original texts with India.

Just ponder on this fact mentioned in:
The Markandeya Purana (54.12) speaks of Earth as being flattened at the poles and bulging at the equator, that is, not perfectly spherical.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

If we have capable people should try to understand the math of the ion engines from the descriptions given.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Stuhlinger

NASA oral history

https://historycollection.jsc.nasa.gov/ ... 2-8-97.htm
drnayar
BRFite
Posts: 993
Joined: 29 Jan 2023 18:38

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by drnayar »

bala wrote: 13 Jul 2023 23:39
Cyrano wrote: 13 Jul 2023 21:42 Unless someone builds a working vimana that performs as advertised, its just wonderful imagination. All vignana needs pramana before it can be elevated to any nirdharita sutra or formalised as shaashtra.
Cyranoji, there is an actual photo of Talpade's MARUTSHAKTI flying over Mumbai's Chowpatty Beach (I have one copy). Tis not imagination anymore but wilful suppression of the Indian spirit to demonstrate that gyan of the ancients.

Talpade studied and consulted a number of Vedic treatises like Brihad Vaimanika Shastra of Maharishi Bharadwaja, Vimanachandrika of Acharya Narayan Muni, Viman yantra of Maharishi Shownik, Yantra Kalp by Maharishi Garg Muni, Viman Bindu of Acharya Vachaspati and Vimana Gyanarka Prakashika of Maharishi Dhundiraj. Vaimaanika Shastra explains in detail the metals and alloys and other required material, which can make an aircraft. Many of these scripts have been carted of by the Britshits to Germany and Oxford and they will not share the original texts with India.

Just ponder on this fact mentioned in:
The Markandeya Purana (54.12) speaks of Earth as being flattened at the poles and bulging at the equator, that is, not perfectly spherical.

those hidden warehouses in old Indiana Jones movies and the "librarian" makes some meaning :D .. truth is somewhere near to fiction
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5510
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Cyrano »

Bala saar,
Please post that picture. When someone in India can reproduce what Talpade has done, we wont have any need to disbelieve it. Else its claims and counter claims in infinite loops.
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2025
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by bala »

Cyrano ji I cannot post the picture due to copyrights issue. However here are some links you can peruse.

Prasad's Prapata movie

TOI article of flight over chowpatty beach

Shivkar Bapuji Talpade where a mention is made of murutshakti. Wiki of course states things wrongly like they do for Dates on Adi Shankarcharya and Lord Gautama Buddha.

Knowing the history of the Britshits and their fairy tales spun on their demented rule over India, I am quite sure this incident did occur.

On the German angle about mercury ion technology, the German submarine U-859 was sunk by the Brits. Later during salvaging ops 12 tons of mercury were recovered.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Good job Bala!!!
archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6823
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by archan »

From Twitter:

https://twitter.com/MrSharma987/status/ ... Nmk2g&s=19

Quote

"!! Breaking!!
As per WikiLeaks, the ex-CM of Madhya Pradesh, Kamal Nath, leaked information about India's nuclear test in 1976 to America.
This leak pushed our Nuclear programme back by 22 years.
Congress is a termite that’s eating India from the inside."
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by RoyG »

archan wrote: 18 Jul 2023 16:08 From Twitter:

https://twitter.com/MrSharma987/status/ ... Nmk2g&s=19

Quote

"!! Breaking!!
As per WikiLeaks, the ex-CM of Madhya Pradesh, Kamal Nath, leaked information about India's nuclear test in 1976 to America.
This leak pushed our Nuclear programme back by 22 years.
Congress is a termite that’s eating India from the inside."
Politicians and civil servants have done worse. Too long ago to do anything about it now. Anything is for sale for the right amount.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12356
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by Pratyush »

How did Kamal Nath learn about the supposed test in 76?

If it was IG, then she had 4 years until her death to revisit test.

Why did Rajiv not do it?

The report doesn't pass the smell test.
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by RoyG »

Indias top most strategic interest will have to be to improve education, retain talent, and build knowledge building institutions. This is first paper I have seen which gives us a glimpse into brain drain phenomena. PDF in link.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w31308
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by ramana »

Link: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dludden/econhist3.html
Economic data on regional disparities do not reveal other regional outcomes of unven development. I want to end with a story of one hidden region in southernmost Tamil Nadu.

In 1975, a colleague of mine put his hand on my shoulder and turned me around to face north as we stood on the main street of Tirukkurungudi, a large, prosperous village nestled at the foot of the ghats in southwest Tirunelveli District, near Kanya Kumari. "Look," he said proudly, "from here north to Madurai, it is all Marava country!"

This "country" (nadu) appears on no map. It is a discontinuous territory that runs north from Tirukkurungudi across a dry landscape dotted with irrigation tanks spanning about twenty miles across the edge of mountains and the plains below; and from Madurai it curves east down to Rameswaram. It is the territory in which Maravars or Tevars have exercised dominance for roughly 400 years. It is marked by the old fort towns founded by Marava palayakkarar under the royal Nayaks of Madurai. Its records include stories of battles against the British that became nationalist lore. Its history also includes a very particular legacy of caste conflict, which hinges on contested control of local territories pitting Tevars against various competitors. This Marava territory was historically defined by its separation from areas of Telugu Nayak power in the east and Vellala/Brahman power in the south along the Tambraparni River.


In the 1890s, caste riots broke out regularly in the booming market towns in this territory as Maravas tried to stop the rising status of Nadars merchants who were fighting in the courts and on the streets for rights of temple entry. Keeping people out of temples, defending sacred temple precincts from pollution, expressed a wider power over space. Land ownership, access to forests, privileged house sites, places of honor in processions, a place at the table of the Raja or in the court of the British Collector - all of these constituted power by control over symbolic space. Territory obsessed Maravas, who fought one another for what British observers took to be totally worthless bits of scrubland.

In the twentieth century, generations of locally prominent Marava families, lead by the Raja of Ramanathapuram, have struggled to keep and expand their local power. They became active in the Dravidian Movement, ultimately forming a solid vote block that swung to MG Ramachandran in the 1980s and stayed behind Jayalalitha until the 1999 elections.

In the 1990s, Maravas have engaged in caste riots, often pogroms, against formerly untouchable Dalit landless laborers who have earned increasing incomes by working in the Gulf and by sending sons and daughters to school in towns rather than in villages. Dalits are installing statues of B.RAmbedkar, the symbol of Untouchable militancy in India; as Tevars fight to glorify their hero, Muthu Ramalinga Tevar, former Raja of Ramanathapuram, by erecting his statue at the prominent cross-roads. Struggles focus on control of public space and access to public resources; and often riots begin with fights among children in school, on the school bus, or on the road on the way to and from school. Maravas are still fighting for Marava country, inch by inch, day by day, facing opposition all the way.

This struggle seems to be merely local. But in the context of the long history of globalization in South India, it is part of local, regional, national, and global history, all at once...
Something to ruminate on. In one section he describes the politics of TN and the D*K parties and situates them in the matrix of local, regional, national, and global factors. If I may add also the linguistic milieu.
There is an undercurrent of Telugu vs Tamil too.
sanjayc
BRFite
Posts: 1111
Joined: 22 Aug 2016 21:40

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sanjayc »

Swaminathan S. Anklesaria Aiyar is apparently a research fellow at the Cato Institute, a think tank based in Washington. (Natives are supposed to swoon at this recognition of the native sepoy from the White man).

He is in actuality a resident house negro singing for his supper in foreign press about how bad ancient India was and how the Mughal rule was a deliverance. These old farts, left-overs from Nehruvian era, need to kick the bucket. They have secured their careers by grovelling before the white man as an art form. They don't belong to today's India and need to fade away, as the older they get, the more they stink.
In sum, India's era of Hindu rule was one of stark poverty, economic stagnation and high mortality. Nothing golden about it.
Under Muslim rule, roughly between 1000 and 1700, India's annual GDP almost tripled to $90.75 billion.
However, India did not get poorer in per capita income terms in the British era, as alleged by the BJP. India's share of world GDP plummeted mainly because incomes in the West soared after the industrial revolution.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/India-s ... just-begun

The entire article is vomit from a sepoy.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32594
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by chetak »

sanjayc wrote: 23 Jul 2023 22:33 Swaminathan S. Anklesaria Aiyar is apparently a research fellow at the Cato Institute, a think tank based in Washington. (Natives are supposed to swoon at this recognition of the native sepoy from the White man).

He is in actuality a resident house negro singing for his supper in foreign press about how bad ancient India was and how the Mughal rule was a deliverance. These old farts, left-overs from Nehruvian era, need to kick the bucket. They have secured their careers by grovelling before the white man as an art form. They don't belong to today's India and need to fade away, as the older they get, the more they stink.
In sum, India's era of Hindu rule was one of stark poverty, economic stagnation and high mortality. Nothing golden about it.
Under Muslim rule, roughly between 1000 and 1700, India's annual GDP almost tripled to $90.75 billion.
However, India did not get poorer in per capita income terms in the British era, as alleged by the BJP. India's share of world GDP plummeted mainly because incomes in the West soared after the industrial revolution.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/India-s ... just-begun

The entire article is vomit from a sepoy.

the clown is manishankar aiyar's brother

why are we not surprised

"Anklesaria" and for some strange reason, he has taken his wife's name also into his own name

ultra woke
S_Madhukar
BRFite
Posts: 543
Joined: 27 Mar 2019 18:15

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by S_Madhukar »

I recall reading this other Aiyar’s swaminomics columns in Toilet when I was young and some of it was actually good and made sense. He might have even criticised his bro in the past…. So now not in power hence suddenly all this anti - India BS… jeez does he have a shadow writer or has started writing fiction…
He might even prefer being in a Mughal harem now :((
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2025
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by bala »

In the 1790s, British philologist and founder of the Asiatic Society of India, William Jones (who does not know Sanskrit) made an erroneous correlation between the Indian kings Xandrames and Sandracottus mentioned in Greek historical accounts during Alexander’s invasion of India in 323 BCE, with Chandragupta Maurya, the founder of the Mauryan Empire. This correlation came to be established as a sheet anchor in Indian History and the monumental blunder caused the erroneous identification of many historical figures with dates of the modern era. Traditional Indian historians bitterly contested the historical sheet anchor of Jones’ identification of Xandrames with Chandragupta Maurya as flawed, as it did not match with the much older and elaborate chronological accounts found in the Puranas from the time of the Mahabharata till the period of the Guptas.

Dr M.L. Raja is an Eye Surgeon, Archaeologist, Epigraphist, Historian and Director at AVINASH Research Centre, shows how erroneous William Jones' conclusion is and the sheet anchor is now a Cheat Anchor. Megasthenes is in fact a known liar who made up junk about India (check out YT v=ncy994HWrUk).



This information has huge ramifications on Chanakya/Kautilya and Alexander tales.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6135
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sanjaykumar »

William jones was a philologist who definitely knew Sanskrit, having translated shakuntula and making the well known remarks on the relationship among Sanskrit, Greek and Latin.
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by RoyG »

Bala,

The problem isn’t William Jones or the Greek historians. It’s GoI which has not yet constituted a decolonization or truth and reconciliation body. Until then much of the knowledge will remain in forums, books, and videos outside state education and research publications.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32594
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by chetak »

It is the "Non-basmati white rice" that is becoming costly for the Indian consumer

what's wrong with the Indian Govt specifically protecting Indian consumers before all else


Non-basmati white rice: IMF ‘encourages’ India to remove export restrictions

https://indianexpress.com/article/busin ... s-8860981/
The Indian government on July 20 had banned the export of non-basmati white rice to boost domestic supply and keep retail prices under check during the upcoming festive season. This type of rice constitutes about 25 per cent of total rice exported from the country.

There would be no change in export policy of par-boiled non-basmati rice and basmati rice, which forms the bulk of exports, the food ministry had said in a statement.

In the current environment, these types of restrictions are likely to exacerbate volatility on food prices in the rest of the world. They can also lead to retaliatory measures, Pierre-Olivier Gourinchas, Chief Economist, International Monetary Fund (IMF), told a press conference here.

“So, they are certainly something that we would encourage the removal of these types of export restrictions, because they can be harmful globally,” he said in response to a question.

The total exports of non-basmati white rice from India was USD 4.2 million in 2022-23 as against USD 2.62 million in the preceding year. Major destinations of India’s non-basmati white rice exports include the US, Thailand, Italy, Spain and Sri Lanka
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6135
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Interests_2

Post by sanjaykumar »

Obesity rates in the western hemisphere are alarming. It is not uncommon to see human beings weighing 350-400 lbs.

Perhaps the IMF can gently suggest lower levels of consumption that will leave more for the poor of the planet.

It is not just economics it is cultural. The Japanese have a very high standard of living but are rarely obese.

I am sorry to observe that Indians are heading the way of westerners.
Post Reply