Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2023 22:02

Maitya,
Thanks for the info about SAFRAN seeking a $6B investment for the 130KN.
Gives a cost perspective.

All,
Am sure even GE will offer its own version.
Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA 1 are all F414.
That's a lot of planes.
No need to lose sleep over the AMCA-2 engine.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Jul 2023 21:23

I am asking myself a simple question.

Rakesh has answered one part of it on the AMCA thread. Not saying that his answer is wrong.

But looking at the different power output for different JV. It seems to me that India is discussing about different engines with different JV partners.

With a speculation on my part, that both the programs will be funded for different applications.

AMCA is a clear and present, most visible application.

However, the Su30 needs replacement as well.

Such a plane will need a high performance 130kn + thrust engine.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Jul 2023 21:29

Not so easy for Su30. Has to fit into airframe.

mody · Post by **mody** » 05 Jul 2023 21:50

Given that we will have 123 Tejas MK1/MK1A, with a likely additional order of upto 50 planes, GOI absolutely should fund and take it up as a national endeavour, to develop a Kaveri version with 56-60 KN dry and 84-86 KN wet thrust.
If the same would have been achieved by now and would have been in production, it would have given us much higher bargaining power with the western engine manufacturers.

Besides even if we can do this by 2028-30, it is a must. Having the Tejas fly with an indigenously designed, developed and manufactured engines would be a truly great achievement.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Jul 2023 22:04

RoyG wrote:Not so easy for Su30. Has to fit into airframe.

I am thinking about the replacement of the Su30.

AMCA is not going to be it.

Al31 is a 122 kn wet thrust engine.

The French are offering a 130 kn thrust engine for joint development.

Do they not know that the AMCA MK1 is approved with a 98 on wet thrust engine?

32kn thrust difference is too much for a single aircraft design. Unless the Indian side is also working on a larger 5.5 or a 6th generation jet. It makes no sense for such a development offer.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Jul 2023 22:14

@Pratyush: We do not know what Safran is offering. 130kN is likely a figment of some over enthusiastic journalist, who has to please his/her boss. Dr Kota Harinarayana is studying all three proposals from Safran, Rolls Royce and General Electric. Nobody - who is not supposed to know - has an iota of a clue as to what is being proposed. It could be 110kN, 120kN, 130kN or some entirely other figure. Let more concrete information come out and then we can hash out whether the power is sufficient or not.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 06 Jul 2023 01:46

Pratyush wrote:
RoyG wrote:Not so easy for Su30. Has to fit into airframe.
I am thinking about the replacement of the Su30.

AMCA is not going to be it.

Al31 is a 122 kn wet thrust engine.

The French are offering a 130 kn thrust engine for joint development.

Do they not know that the AMCA MK1 is approved with a 98 on wet thrust engine?

32kn thrust difference is too much for a single aircraft design. Unless the Indian side is also working on a larger 5.5 or a 6th generation jet. It makes no sense for such a development offer.

Any aircraft that carries an excess of 6500 kgs of fuel and has external plumbing for two tanks and IFR capability can replace Su-30MKI for all roles. It doesn't matter what engine it has.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Jul 2023 02:25

Rakesh wrote:Ahead of PM Modi’s visit, France offers to co-develop engine for combat jets
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 82106.html
02 July 2023

The knives are already out, post the publication of the above news item.

Shukla now pushing for GE F-414EPE

Broadsword column: India’s strategic choices
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/07/broa ... tegic.html
07 July 2023

Modi’s Paris visit crucial for Indian aero engines
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/07/modi ... ndian.html
06 July 2023

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 08 Jul 2023 10:55

Rakesh wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Ahead of PM Modi’s visit, France offers to co-develop engine for combat jets
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 82106.html
02 July 2023
The knives are already out, post the publication of the above news item.

Shukla now pushing for GE F-414EPE

Broadsword column: India’s strategic choices
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/07/broa ... tegic.html
07 July 2023

Modi’s Paris visit crucial for Indian aero engines
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/07/modi ... ndian.html
06 July 2023

Nothing there in these articles that's new or that needs commenting upon - however, the following needs pointing out:

The Kaveri’s 50 kiloNewtons (kN) thrust will suffice for the unmanned UCAV, but it does not have the performance and reliability to power the manned Tejas fighter.

Sure, Kaveri's 50KN (dry thrust) is not good enough for Mk1/1A, but 54KN for gora-F404 is supah-dupah and is God-gifted.
Never mind, technologically, Kaveri is almost a gen ahead of F404, and, if funding was available, could have easily met the F414-402/INS6 variants, as:
1. 7 stage (F414) vs 6 stages (Kaveri) of HPC
2. Rene N6 vs DMS4 for HPT blades
etc.

EPE though (as reported), is an altogether different beast though, incorporating a lot of the 5th gen Turbofan tech.
Also it will have a much shorter dev timeframe as most of the 5th gen technologies (as we are seeking via the AMCA engine joint-dev route - pls refer to my prev post) has been already developed (and tested) via the EDE and other assorted programs, approx a decade+ back (so must be fully matured by now):

1. CMC based LPT - this itself is a game changer.
(Speculative) may go for a Bling (instead of Blisk) design as well.
2. Next Gen SC HPT blades with further advanced blade cooling architecture - providing addn 83deg C TeT levels (so the insane levels of ~1650-70deg C)
3. Blisk FAN - baseline F414 already has Blisk HPC stages, EPE takes them to LPC as well.
4. Higher efficiency HPC - addn 3% increase in efficiency (so firmly in 92-93% isentropic efficiency category, Kaveri languishes at 85-87% levels).
Do note, an 1% increase in HPC efficiency has significant impact on OPR (so directly to SFC) and, if combined with matching TeT increase, to the dry thrust levels as well.
5. (Speculative) CMC based last stage of HPC (currently Ni-Superalloy based)
6. (Speculative) CMC liner in combustor, eliminating the need of film-cooling via cool-air from the HPC
7. Extensive usage of CMC on static peripheral parts like shrouds, casings etc (currently Ni superalloys are used), significantly impacting the overall weight.
etc etc ... I've always favored EPE route (for AMCA engine dev), provided there's a true design/dev/testing ToT (so oxymoron).

Another important point, though indirect, needs to be kept in mind:
With EDE/EPE initiative GE wants to have all of the above-mentioned achieved, via a 6 stage HPC (currently 7) route.
Now, given that we daily hear a different target thrust values (110-120-130KN values), if any addn thrust level requirement is suddenly popped out, there's a much better (and quicker) chance (via retaining the 7-stage HPC design), to addressing that thru this program.
(Notice, how easily GE offered IN20 version of F404, providing almost 10% of dry thrust growth (54KN vs 49KN of baseline 404), just like that)

But the obvious question, given all these, just how much is there to co-develop etc, and thus how much of tech knowhow will be actually shared.
And my guess is, not much, given what we are witnessing in the F414-INS6 mfg deal (under negotiation), and most probably, it'll be another ToAsT type deal. So 0 value-add for indigenous turbofan design/dev/testing effort etc.

So, if we are to anyway fund a furrin OEM for their next gen turbofan development program, it's better to go for Safran or RR offer - though it will take much longer (and riskier) there, atleast since these above technologies will also be developed, we will have some fighting chance of getting/experiencing some 15-20% (doesn't matter what % the assorted MoD baboons or politicos claim

) exposure of that tech design/dev/testing as well.

But atleast, that will be better than, open-and-shut case of a ToAsT type EPE deal.

All of the above IMVHO only …

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 08 Jul 2023 11:04

Not just that but how much can be extracted from the 414 over the lifetime of the MK2& TEDBF? DRDO wants F135-level engine parameters ( that you'd listed in an earlier post) in a smaller form factor with corresponding thrust levels, nominally 110kN.
Even if we get an engine with all these techs in them, there's no way we would be in a position to work on a derivative for more thrust ten years down the line to cater to increased power demand from newer subsystems (both outright thrust & electrical).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Jul 2023 01:33

maitya wrote: ↑08 Jul 2023 10:55Sure, Kaveri's 50KN (dry thrust) is not good enough for Mk1/1A, but 54KN for gora-F404 is supah-dupah and is God-gifted.
Never mind, technologically, Kaveri is almost a gen ahead of F404, and, if funding was available, could have easily met the F414-402/INS6 variants, as:
1. 7 stage (F414) vs 6 stages (Kaveri) of HPC
2. Rene N6 vs DMS4 for HPT blades
etc.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/167 ... 88256?s=20 ---> The Government of India must give DRDO's GTRE the go ahead to integrate a Kaveri engine demonstrator (of the relevant standard of preparation) with a LCA-Tejas test vehicle for limited envelope flights. This will not only generate valuable data, but will also strengthen India's position when dealing with foreign collaborators for the AMCA engine.

=========================================

A MiG-29K would be better for this, no?

=========================================

Added Later: Saurav Jha answered my question above.

https://twitter.com/cvkrishnan/status/1 ... 45696?s=20 ---> Slapping a test engine on a single engine fighter? Sounds pretty risky to me. Better to do it on a platform that has multiple redundancies with larger instrumentation and telemetry.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/167 ... 61248?s=20 ---> That is the kind of confidence GTRE has. Carefree throttle handling on K9 has been demonstrated beyond doubt now. And don't forget more than 57 hours of testing on an IL-76 flying test bed has been done already + 180 hours in an altitude test facility. There is no need to put in on a MiG 29 to be sanguine. That has been achieved already.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/167 ... 57025?s=20 ---> So, the point about instrumentation and telemetry is now redundant because that has already been done via the IL-76 FTB at GFRI*, Russia.

*Gromov Flight Research Institute

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Jul 2023 09:53

I am sorry guys. But I don't understand what this issue of government giving GTRE a test platform for Kaveri.

The dry Kaveri is meant to be fitted to the AURA/SWIFT vehicle and flown.

That by definition is an example of high confidence in the engine that it's being used to power such a vital technology demonstration platform.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jul 2023 07:23

Twitteratti create fake issues to show off their patriotism.
How will Tejas take off without the afterburner?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jul 2023 07:26

Rakesh, All These chatteratti don't know Modiji.
He now understands the system.
EPE is on the table to ensure SAFRAN delivers.

IAF always torpedoes any competition and their wisdom was accepted.
Long ago Bristol offered engine tech for 15M pounds. The IAF rejected it.

basant · Post by **basant** » 11 Jul 2023 09:14

ramana wrote: ↑11 Jul 2023 07:23 Twitteratti create fake issues to show off their patriotism.
How will Tejas take off without the afterburner?

May be for testing it should be okay considering that they may never need to test with any payload or with max fuel. Mk1 has max takeoff weight around 13.5t, about twice the empty weight. The variant used for TD1 had a wet thrust of around 84 kN IIRC.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 11 Jul 2023 11:37

GTRE wants to test the Kaveri with afterburner on the Tejas to generate data. Has been asking for it for a few years now. Not the dry version.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 11 Jul 2023 11:52

GE 414 deal doesn't make any sense to me.
India owned engine via JV is anyways highest priority.
None of Tejas mk2 , Amca or Tedbf will be ordered or signalled for production this decade.
We are unnecessarily committing to GE 414.
There are obvious rework w.r.t. new engines but planning
the same along the development of new engine, means necessary design changes are ready by the time engine will be ready in 2030.

With JV engine, we are unnecessarily aiming too high and delaying that too. Our first target should be self sufficiency.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 11 Jul 2023 15:06

Prasad wrote: ↑11 Jul 2023 11:37 GTRE wants to test the Kaveri with afterburner on the Tejas to generate data. Has been asking for it for a few years now. Not the dry version.

May be MoD is waiting for OMCA (unmanned) version of Tejas

And if GTRE is really willing then they are also sure of safety and no threat to pilot due to engine for a short flight? if that is true then why would MoD not allow it? Should MoD even be in picture for this?
It should be between ADA, HAL and GTRE. All 3 entities can decide to fund for this without dedicated MoD funds?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Jul 2023 18:51

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/16 ... 43392?s=20 ---> I explain why India-France talks on co-developing a jet engine for our futuristic AMCA fifth gen fighter is a far bigger & more meaningful quest than any Rafale deal.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 14 Jul 2023 18:23

As someone pointed out, OEMs never start with a clean slate while developing a new engine. So in a co-development what is the fair share of work that Indian technologists can bring to the table? Where is the leverage here?

I strongly believe that salvation still resides in pursuing Kaveri. GE and Safran deals might make a lot of economic, geopolitical, military sense and even help preparedness. Technologically it'll be close to zero.

Isn't there a use case for a Kaveri based mediocre performing platform? Isn't there a market in the "global South"to sell such a platform? Strategic blindness

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 14 Jul 2023 18:39

Kailash wrote: ↑14 Jul 2023 18:23 As someone pointed out, OEMs never start with a clean slate while developing a new engine. So in a co-development what is the fair share of work that Indian technologists can bring to the table? Where is the leverage here?

I strongly believe that salvation still resides in pursuing Kaveri. GE and Safran deals might make a lot of economic, geopolitical, military sense and even help preparedness. Technologically it'll be close to zero.

Isn't there a use case for a Kaveri based mediocre performing platform? Isn't there a market in the "global South"to sell such a platform? Strategic blindness

With some of the tech from ge engine along with our own indigenous development we could end up contributing significantly to the engine overall. BUT the Crown Jewels of the engine will remain with France. The labor and r&d costs will drive the engine price down and hence price per aircraft unit down for both domestic and export market. Kaveri for fighter aircraft m is pretty much good as dead at this point.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jul 2023 02:19

Safran of France has clinched the JV tender, to develop a new turbofan for the AMCA program, thus eliminating GE and Rolls Royce.

On the highlighted part in red...this roadmap might provide key data points i.e. maximum wet thrust, supercruise capability, division of labour, program dates, etc. This is why I was insisting on waiting for more concrete info to come out, rather that speculate.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 69152?s=20 ---> India and France will extend their ground-breaking defence cooperation in advanced aeronautical technologies by supporting the joint development of a combat aircraft engine. A roadmap on this project will be prepared between Safran and DRDO before the end of this year.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 70304?s=20 ---> They also support industrial cooperation for motorization of heavy-lift helicopters under the Indian Multi Role Helicopter [IMRH] programme with Safran Helicopter Engine, France. To enable progress on the IMRH programme, a Shareholders’ Agreement between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), India and Safran Helicopter Engine, France has been concluded for engine development. These ventures are in line with the spirit of trust that prevails between India and France in the sharing and joint development of critical components and technology building blocks, based on the successful Indo-French experience in technology transfer.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/16 ... 10688?s=20 ---> Biggest takeaway in the India-France joint communiqué: the 2 countries will co-develop a combat aircraft engine (for India’s AMCA). As I said before, in terms of substance, this goes further, deeper and way beyond any procurement deal. Unprecedented.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jul 2023 03:04

Maitya-ji, I know you will take offense to the tweet below

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 67464?s=20 ---> As @PMOIndia sits down for dinner with President Macron, there will be satisfied faces on both sides on conclusion of truly pathbreaking outcomes. For me, the announcement that Safran and DRDO will jointly develop a military jet engine in India for the AMCA is truly significant.

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 70241?s=20 ---> That India will jointly own the IP for a military jet engine which neither the Russians nor the Americans have given all these years (GE 414 is ToT only for manufacturing, remember) will be a game changer. Safran will also co-develop with HAL an engine for the IMRH.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 15 Jul 2023 03:16

Any contract India signs with France much impose payments tied to clearly defined outcomes "engagement de résultats" and not "engagement de moyens".

The difference between the two is like fixed price and T&M contracts.
If anyone here has access to the ear of any MoD Babu, or GoI minister, please pass this on.

Other wise we will get scalped.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 15 Jul 2023 03:18

Nitin gokhale is unwatchable these days sadly. Atleast his tweets are readable...

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 15 Jul 2023 09:30

Rakesh wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023 03:04 Maitya-ji, I know you will take offense to the tweet below

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 67464?s=20 ---> As @PMOIndia sits down for dinner with President Macron, there will be satisfied faces on both sides on conclusion of truly pathbreaking outcomes. For me, the announcement that Safran and DRDO will jointly develop a military jet engine in India for the AMCA is truly significant.

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 70241?s=20 ---> That India will jointly own the IP for a military jet engine which neither the Russians nor the Americans have given all these years (GE 414 is ToT only for manufacturing, remember) will be a game changer. Safran will also co-develop with HAL an engine for the IMRH.

Actually I'll be not

- pls refer to the highlighted/bolded part of my earlier post:

maitya wrote: ↑08 Jul 2023 10:55 <snip>
But the obvious question, given all these, just how much is there to co-develop etc, and thus how much of tech knowhow will be actually shared.
And my guess is, not much, given what we are witnessing in the F414-INS6 mfg deal (under negotiation), and most probably, it'll be another ToAsT type deal. So 0 value-add for indigenous turbofan design/dev/testing effort etc.

So, if we are to anyway fund a furrin OEM for their next gen turbofan development program, it's better to go for Safran or RR offer - though it will take much longer (and riskier) there, atleast since these above technologies will also be developed, we will have some fighting chance of getting/experiencing some 15-20% (doesn't matter what % the assorted MoD baboons or politicos claim ) exposure of that tech design/dev/testing as well.

But atleast, that will be better than, open-and-shut case of a ToAsT type EPE deal.
<snip>

All these MoUs etc are anyway fluff, nothing much to read in them - basic aspect that I'd be looking for:
1) How much of CMC tech will be joint-designed-developed-tested-and-manufactured for,
a) the high-pressure high-temp rotary parts (e.g. LPT, final stages of the HPCs)
b) static parts like the Combustor liner

2) usage of indigenous superalloys: the indigenous SC one for the HPT blades, and the indigenous DS one for the HPT Vanes
No need of French superalloys to be used for the so-called co-development etc - plus improvement to the overall blade cooling architecture/design (this will involve improvement to the blade core design etc).
Plus develop the bond-coat, top-coat interface and TBC applying technology (like EBPVD) involving only the indigenously developed bilayer YSZ-LZ TBC.

3) HPC and HPT (and LPT) design (and then manufacturing aspects) wrt,
a) secondary loss minimization (i.e. improvement of isentropic efficiencies to low 90s%, WITHOUT resorting to rmp increase)
b) achievement of supersonic blade speeds
c) improvement in Ti casting etc tech towards implementing multi-circular arc profile 3D blade design technology for HPC stages

4) Improve the already available Kaveri combustor - no need of trying to improve a French combustor (say from M-88 etc) and then call it co-development

5) Brand new design and development of afterburner section with 60% thrust addition (wrt dry thrust) and max 1.1 mass-fraction

6) Improve the already developed Ghatak turbofan FAN (plus 2 stages of LPC) for >5 PR - sorry we don't need any other Fan design to start as the baseline of this co-development route.

etc etc etc.
Later, I'll expand this above post further (as long as the forum software allows me to edit my own post), but one of the key theme that needs understanding wrt such so-called co-development route is:

Except for where there are de-novo design/dev involvement (e.g CMS usage etc), std OEM trick is to use one of their already developed base technology/material/product, and then use our funds to improve them, and come up with next gen technologies.
That way, there's no hassle of sharing anything etc, as even-if (and huge/big if) the incremental tech dev aspects are shared with, the already-technology-pichchde partners like us, it's not much of an use (without first getting the basic design and test data of the base technology/product itself).

Our money, their product, their IP, and whatever incremental IP that got shared (so no contractual violation etc), is of no use anyway - yes a slightly-improved version of ToAsT will materialize though.

Ofcourse expecting a bunch of medieval-history-degree-dhari-baboon (or some glorified BWT rep), participant in such negotiations, to understand/appreciate such nuances is well ...

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 15 Jul 2023 12:18

I do hope that agreement translates to the DRDO similar to what Vikas rocket engines did for ISRO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikas_(rocket_engine)

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Jul 2023 12:53

drnayar wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023 12:18 I do hope that agreement translates to the DRDO similar to what Vikas rocket engines did for ISRO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikas_(rocket_engine)

drnayar ji,

vikas suffered through a prolonged and frustrating development process in India because of inaccurate transfer of documents and tech details

Many engines failed tests, oftentimes catastrophically, when the manufacturing drawings were followed meticulously until ISRO, fairly soon, realized that they had been sandbagged, and started to correct the shortcomings on their own, using trial and error, and managed to get the vikas going. Today, the vikas it is a reliable workhorse for ISRO

Whether this was done deliberately at the lower levels with a view to sabotage the agreement, maybe because some french chaprasi was ideologically opposed to brown folks acquiring such technology, or someone up the food chain was paid off to fudge the critical details is not clear

There are many major powers which are vehemently opposed to transfer of tech for a MIL grade or fighter engine tech to India and they will do their best to kill the process.

Remember what the amrikis did to India (and Nambi Narayanan) when they stopped russia from transferring the cryogenic engine tech to ISRO, our amriki pal sleepy joe was the main driving force behind that entire episode

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 15 Jul 2023 12:56

chetak wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023 12:53
drnayar wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023 12:18 I do hope that agreement translates to the DRDO similar to what Vikas rocket engines did for ISRO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikas_(rocket_engine)

drnayar ji,

vikas suffered through a prolonged and frustrating development process in India because of inaccurate transfer of documents and tech details

Whether this was done deliberately at the lower levels with a view to sabotage the agreement, maybe because some french chaprasi was ideologically opposed to brown folks acquiring such technology, or someone up the food chain was paid off to fudge the critical details is not clear

There are many major powers which are vehemently opposed to transfer of tech for a MIL grade or fighter engine tech to India and they will do their best to kill the process.

Remember what the amrikis did to India (and Nambi Narayanan) when they stopped russia from transferring the cryogenic engine tech to ISRO, our amriki pal sleepy joe was the main driving force behind that entire episode

i guess there is no shortcut to plain hard work and sustained effort into our own indigenous solutions. Kaveri is not dead anyway.

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 15 Jul 2023 15:43

chetak wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023 12:53
drnayar wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023 12:18 I do hope that agreement translates to the DRDO similar to what Vikas rocket engines did for ISRO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikas_(rocket_engine)

drnayar ji,

vikas suffered through a prolonged and frustrating development process in India because of inaccurate transfer of documents and tech details

Many engines failed tests, oftentimes catastrophically, when the manufacturing drawings were followed meticulously until ISRO, fairly soon, realized that they had been sandbagged, and started to correct the shortcomings on their own, using trial and error, and managed to get the vikas going. Today, the vikas it is a reliable workhorse for ISRO

Whether this was done deliberately at the lower levels with a view to sabotage the agreement, maybe because some french chaprasi was ideologically opposed to brown folks acquiring such technology, or someone up the food chain was paid off to fudge the critical details is not clear

There are many major powers which are vehemently opposed to transfer of tech for a MIL grade or fighter engine tech to India and they will do their best to kill the process.

Remember what the amrikis did to India (and Nambi Narayanan) when they stopped russia from transferring the cryogenic engine tech to ISRO, our amriki pal sleepy joe was the main driving force behind that entire episode

I would expect a similar situation with the tots.. we are also hedging our bets anyway. Keep learning and this time money won't be an issue.

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 15 Jul 2023 17:06

My view is that tech transfer and all is build experience. Our people - Children of Bharat with clear head and loyalty can learn quite a lot while being part of this manufacturing. Observe, imbibe, bribe, adapt, build, iterate and build again is the only say to go. I have my serious doubts that something other than a black box is arriving ( for engine core) for this so called JV product.

I have been fairly critical of these agreements. Lot of fury amounting to nothing much. Nobody is going to transfer any deep tech unless we hold their balls in tight squeeze over putting men on Tibet border (whenever the balloon goes up between US-China- Unlikely though).

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 15 Jul 2023 17:09

Cyrano wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023 03:16 Any contract India signs with France much impose payments tied to clearly defined outcomes "engagement de résultats" and not "engagement de moyens".

The difference between the two is like fixed price and T&M contracts.

Sent

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 15 Jul 2023 20:49

Dhanyavaad mahoday !

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 16 Jul 2023 01:20

Even in the CMCs we don't have the tech to manufacture certain fibres. And our research into gamma TiAl is still not where we would want.

So replacing Ni alloys in the core with these alloys, CMCs in non rotating parts (theyve done tons of research into umra high temperature composites. where are the French wrt rotating parts?) will be very interesting to see. As also how much of this manufacturing so be indigenised all the way through.

Our own heht turbine programs are ongoing. Much like in the Kaveri program I assume there will be a lot of handlooms, verification etc apart from areas where we will seek to learn.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jul 2023 03:40

Last Jan Safran (and MTU?) did successfully test (preliminary?) an engine meant for their 6th gen craft. For what that is worth. There are a few papers in French on this topic.

WRT the JV, the challenge is going to be to develop a 110 kN engine within the F414 INS6 form factor and within a cost point that the IAF will be happy with in 2035.

idrw does have some interesting data points, essentially they claim Safran is promising the moon!!!

So, onto a roadmap by year's end.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 16 Jul 2023 04:37

All this supercruise and all is fine and dandy, but without increasing internal fuel for AMCA, you are not going to get very far. One reason the Rafale doesn't leave home without 3 extra external tanks that carry up to 5K kgs of fuel.

Also just having a 100-110 KN engine that can be retrofitted in the same bay will go a long way to provide stability from arm twisting. The local manufacture will help immensely as well.

Good steps if they can sign all these agreements soon and get cracking on it..

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 16 Jul 2023 08:08

The boy has just proposed to the girl. But the relatives have already started discussing about mundan! Give it some time and see what evolves from this partnership / agreement.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jul 2023 23:25

https://twitter.com/cvkrishnan/status/1 ... 53203?s=20 ---> To summarize:

* LCA Mk1 & Mk1A: GE F-404 (direct import).

* LCA Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA Mk1: GE F-414(HAL-GE mfg in India, IP fully owned by GE).

* AMCA Mk2 and TEDBF (maybe): Safran-DRDO new co-developed engine (mfg in India, IP co-owned fully by India & France).

https://twitter.com/cvkrishnan/status/1 ... 17888?s=20 ---> Shakti engine for ALH LUH and LCH (80% indigenous to fill 100% indigenous manufacturing).

* IMRH & DBMRH: New turbo shaft engine To be Safran developed and HAL manufactured.

srin · Post by **srin** » 17 Jul 2023 06:34

^^^ A marine gas turbine engine is sadly missing here. We need to do more than assemble LM2500.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jul 2023 20:24

https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 25732?s=20 ---> It is not a done deal yet, but all indications are that Safran Aircraft Engines of France, is confident of powering India's future helicopters and AMCA over the next 15 years. BharatShakti Editor-in-Chief, Nitin Gokhale visited Safran last week.