Indian Naval Aviation

[Rakesh]

Hence my query about why the specific wording 'when navigating on the deck for take-off and landing'

Surely if the bird fits the lifts and in the hangars then it should have no problem on top viz the deck

Or is the person hinting that we will get the birds now even if they don't fit the lifts and simply store them up top...

Vice Admiral Anup Singh (retd) did mention the Rafale M and MiG-29K specifically. He states, ""Rafale has a footprint on deck of just 10 meters as against the MIG-29 which consumes 13 meters of length for wingspan."

Setting aside the Vice Admiral's possible faux pas of the wingspan and assuming Wikipedia is correct on the MiG-29K (nearly 12 meters, fully extended) and Rafale (nearly 11 meters), that should make a difference on the deck of INS Vikrant and that is why the Vice Admiral mentioned it. The deck space - compared to other aircraft carriers - is tight. Any extra space available would definitely help.

And if the Vice Admiral found the advantage of Rafale M vs MiG-29K, then imagine the F-18SH at 44+ meter wingspan (fully extended) aboard INS Vikrant.

[Rakesh]

Wont stop Rahul or others from crying "corruption". Since when did they need evidence to make allegations?

Given this situation + the fact that the 2019 Rafale allegations backfired on the turd-head + the fact that we are not showing favoritism to France (we bought from USA and Russia too), should allow Modi Ji the freedom to sign this deal

Hope the MoD doesn't try stunts like local manufacture of Rafale. Waste of time - the French are unlikely to agree unless we dangle the MRFA carrot - all of which will only delay everything. All the while, the Vikrant chugs along without aircrafts. Just buy them outright!

If our Services had shown some foresight, once Rafale was declared as the MMRCA winner, the MoD, IN & IAF could have come together, agreed on a 100 Rafale order (74 for IAF and 26 for the IN) and gone for a G2G deal to buy 2 squadrons outright + local manufacturing of the rest. This would have made the decade+ MMRCA tamasha worth the time! But we are not exactly known for such inter-agency coordination or forward thinking

They will likely announce a deal for 26 Rafale Ms on July 14th and state negotiations for contract signature will happen later in the year or next year. Once the 2024 elections are over, they will add that Rafale M contract to a larger contract for IAF Rafales and sign one deal. If France or India state that the latter is looking for local production of the Rafale M, then it would allude to that scenario.

The MRCBF contest was announced only in 2017, after the signing of the Sept 2016 contract for 36 Rafales of the IAF. It would not have been possible to sign a joint deal without a formal testing process conducted by the Indian Navy. That would play right into the opposition's hands.

In this video from Shiv Aroor (https://www.facebook.com/IndiaToday/vid ... 192372762/), Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha (retd) from 16:20 in the video stated that he looked at the Rafale M in 2001 (aboard the Charles De Gaulle) and was impressed. He said that he handed in a report at that time, stating the Indian Navy should look at this aircraft. So the Navy has had its eyes on this bird for the past 20+ years.

But 20+ years ago, MMRCA 1.0 was in full swing and the Mirage 2000-5 was on offer for the IAF. Around 2007 (I believe) is when Dassault shut down the Mirage 2000 production line (with Greece being the last customer) and Dassault offered the Rafale to India in MMRCA 1.0 and the rest is history. 20+ years ago, there was no INS Vikramaditya (the Gorshkov deal was not signed) and the keel of INS Vikrant was not even laid down. And still the Indian Navy recommended to go in for the Rafale M.

[Manish_P]

...
Vice Admiral Anup Singh (retd) did mention the Rafale M and MiG-29K specifically. He states, ""Rafale has a footprint on deck of just 10 meters as against the MIG-29 which consumes 13 meters of length for wingspan."

Setting aside the Vice Admiral's possible faux pas of the wingspan and assuming Wikipedia is correct on the MiG-29K (nearly 12 meters, fully extended) and Rafale (nearly 11 meters), that should make a difference on the deck of INS Vikrant and that is why the Vice Admiral mentioned it. The deck space - compared to other aircraft carriers - is tight. Any extra space available would definitely help.

Forgive me, Rakesh ji, I am still not clear why unfolded wing span on top of deck during take off/ landing is given so much importance when the more critical part is the wingspan under the deck and on the lifts. There the folded wings of the MiG 29k (approx 8 meters) and of the F18 Super Hornet (approx 9.5 meters) are better than the 11 meters of the Rafale, which can't be folded...

Surely the bridge/Island of the carrier is not that big (wide) to hamper flight and recovery operations! Am very confused.

[Rakesh]

...
Vice Admiral Anup Singh (retd) did mention the Rafale M and MiG-29K specifically. He states, ""Rafale has a footprint on deck of just 10 meters as against the MIG-29 which consumes 13 meters of length for wingspan."

Setting aside the Vice Admiral's possible faux pas of the wingspan and assuming Wikipedia is correct on the MiG-29K (nearly 12 meters, fully extended) and Rafale (nearly 11 meters), that should make a difference on the deck of INS Vikrant and that is why the Vice Admiral mentioned it. The deck space - compared to other aircraft carriers - is tight. Any extra space available would definitely help.

Forgive me, Rakesh ji, I am still not clear why unfolded wing span on top of deck during take off/ landing is given so much importance when the more critical part is the wingspan under the deck and on the lifts. There the folded wings of the MiG 29k (approx 8 meters) and of the F18 Super Hornet (approx 9.5 meters) are better than the 11 meters of the Rafale, which can't be folded...

Surely the bridge/Island of the carrier is not that big (wide) to hamper flight and recovery operations! Am very confused.

It is what the good Vice Admiral is saying. They are HIS words.

Don't worry about the wingspan dimensions of the Rafale M on the lift of INS Vikrant or in the hangar. Those issues have been addressed, other the Rafale M would not be the likely winner

So when the Admiral is comparing the Rafale M and the MiG-29K, he is referring to the footprint (i.e. the space taken) on the deck of INS Vikrant. That obviously matters, otherwise why would he mention it? He specifically mentions the figures (even though he is off by around a meter) of both aircraft. And the figure the Vice Admiral provides of the MiG-29K, is with wings *FULLY* extended. The F-18SH is EVEN bigger than the MiG-29K, when her wings are fully extended. A larger wingspan will cause space issues on a cramped deck like that on INS Vikrant.

The Rafale M will not be the only aircraft on the deck. You will have MH-60R, Ka-31 AEW, HAL Chetak (for SAR duties), etc. If you have the luxury of deck space, then this would not be a deal breaker. That luxury is not present on INS Vikrant. Why do you think - among other reasons - the desperate push for a 65,000 ton aircraft carrier? Larger the size of the floating airfield will result in getting more aircraft up in the air.

See the Nimitz Class (and the Gerald R Ford Class) of aircraft carriers. She can conduct landings and take offs at the SAME time. You cannot do that on INS Vikrant or INS Vikramaditya. The deck space is just not there. Deck space is vital and on a vessel like INS Vikrant, it is even more crucial. More space results in effectively utilizing resources on the deck (especially deck crew) for conducting effective STOBAR operations.

[Rakesh]

Nimitz Class. Cat 1 and Cat 2 can launch aircraft one right after the other, while arrestor wires from 1 - 4 can arrest aircraft when landing. If no landings are being conducted, a third and fourth aircraft can be launched from Cat 3 and Cat 4.
Image Source: https://dcs-docs.lordvesel.win/en/sc/img/sc--16-1.jpg



Gerald R Ford Class. Similar Setup as Nimitz Class, but will be more optimized.
Image Source: https://www.thefordclass.com/wp-content ... htdeck.jpg



INS Vikramaditya. Not possible to replicate what the Nimitz and Gerald R Ford Class can do. Where is the deck space?
Image Source: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2jnwM0UtQvo/ ... -final.jpg



INS Vikrant. Same story as above.
Image Source: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E78usThVoAM ... me=900x900

[Cybaru]

Vikrant can probably manage about 12 rafales in the hangar and 6-8 on deck, along with 6-12 helicopters allowing it to operate around 30 aircraft in total. Not all aircraft will be on the boat. The 100-meter and 26-meter-wide hangar can probably manage 12-13 planes and 4-5 helicopters. Again the size of the hangar of Vikrant is an estimate only. They haven't released the actual size. It should be roughly the same as CDG, so feel free to extrapolate...

Here is the loading in CDG.

[Rakesh]

Cybaru, you are spot on. Only 18 Rafale Ms will be onboard INS Vikrant at any given time.

The remaining carrier capable Rafale Ms will be at INS Dabolim, Goa along with her Rafale B twins.

[Cain Marko]

What are the chances that each carrier will hold a mixed air wing of rafales and mig29s. Or would that be just too much logistically.

[Rakesh]

I cannot see any tactical advantage to having such a setup. It might be more of a hindrance (and that is putting it mildly).

The Navy is quite eager to get hands rid of the MiG-29K fleet.

[Manish_P]

It is what the good Vice Admiral is saying. They are HIS words.

Yes sir. am very clear on that

The Rafale M will not be the only aircraft on the deck. You will have MH-60R, Ka-31 AEW, HAL Chetak (for SAR duties), etc. If you have the luxury of deck space, then this would not be a deal breaker.

...

She can conduct landings and take offs at the SAME time. You cannot do that on INS Vikrant or INS Vikramaditya.

I understand, but the aircraft will not be stacked nose to tail up top on our carrier (unlike the larger american ones). They will be side to side at the edge on the side of the Island ( as shown in the layout images in your post). Hence my confusion on why he said 'footprint on deck' for 'take off and landing operations'.

Now as per the layout images in your posts the below-deck (hangar) space is shown where they are stacked nose to tail (had seen those in the documentary too). So I thought that the footprint is even more critical here (it matters on top as well, but here below deck it matters a whole lot of levels more).

Especially since the Indian carriers will not conduct simultaneous take-offs and/or simultaneous take-offs and recovery operations.

Anyway i fully understand, the more compact the bird the better, especially for smaller carriers like ours.

PS: i really wish you hadn't used the samosa analogy... had successfully resisted the temptation for 3 weeks now. the abstaining streak will probably be broken today

[Cybaru]

samosa

Go enjoy my friend! live life samosa king-size!

[Aditya_V]

Then the question remains, as part of India Specific enhancements, how difficult would it be for the French to add Folding wings on the Rafale M?

[Pratyush]

Very, the French have been operating that aircraft for several decades.

Yet they have chosen not to develop wing folding mechanism for it.

Just for 26 units it will be prohibitive to do so.

[Kersi]

IN Rafales. As and when IN gets its 26 Rafales, what weapon will it able able to fire ?
Meteor. Yes
Hammer. Yes
MICA. Yes
Scalp. Can Scalp be used as an anti-ship weapon ?

Will it be the F4R version ?

Is it necessary to start a new thread for IN Rafales ?

[Pratyush]

You missed Exocet.

Are the French selling Scalp to India ?

If yes, how much are they scalping.

[Kersi]

You missed Exocet.

Are the French selling Scalp to India ?

If yes, how much are they scalping.

Not sure whether they call it Scalp or Storm Shadow. For any n every European product we have to pay through our nose

[Rakesh]

Is it necessary to start a new thread for IN Rafales ?

Will start a new Rafale thread, when a contract for Naval Rafales is signed by the GOI.

[Rakesh]

The MRCBF contest (which started around 2017 I believe) is finally over. Air HQ, please take notes

From the Twitter Account of the Office of the Raksha Mantri. Thank goodness it is the Rafale M. A huge relief. It is mithai distribution time again. You guys got the last batch of mithai I sent (when the Akula came) right?

The supposed breakdown of the 26 Rafales are 22 single seater Rafale Ms and 4 twin seater Rafale Bs. Let see when the announcement comes out. Now that DAC acquisition has been completed, next is the announcement and then will come CCS clearance.

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 00449?s=20 ---> A meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) chaired by Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh, has approved three proposals* today.
*Posted the Scorpene announcement in the Indian Navy thread.

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 55265?s=20 ---> The DAC granted Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for procurement of 26 Rafale Marine aircraft along with associated ancillary equipment, weapons, simulator, spares, documentation, crew training and logistic support for the Indian Navy from the French Government based on Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA).

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 59040?s=20 ----> The price and other terms of purchase will be negotiated with the French Government after taking into account all relevant aspects, including comparative procurement price of similar aircraft by other countries. Further, integration of Indian designed equipment and establishment of Maintenance, Repair & Operations (MRO) Hub for various systems will be incorporated into the contract documents after due negotiations.

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 83874?s=20 ---> In addition, the DAC approved the proposal to lay down guidelines for achieving the desired indigenous content in all categories of capital acquisition cases. It will help in achieving ‘Aatmanirbharta’ in critical manufacturing technologies and life-cycle sustenance of defence platforms/equipment through indigenous manufacturing.

[Manish_P]

The MRCBF (contest which started around 2017 I believe) is finally over. Air HQ, please take notes

From the Twitter Account of the Office of the Raksha Mantri. Thank goodness it is the Rafale M. A huge relief. It is mithai distribution time again. You guys got the last batch of mithai I sent (when the Akula came) right?

..

Make it the kaju katri this time Admiral sir... they can also be packed nose to tail like samosas

[Rakesh]

Make it the kaju katri this time Admiral sir... they can also be packed nose to tail like samosas

Samosa and Mithai it is then!

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/167 ... 35937?s=20 ---> First statement from the Indian MoD on clearance for a to-be-negotiated deal for 26 Dassault Rafale fighters for the Indian Navy and three additional Made-in-India Scorpène submarines:

[Rakesh]

ANI reporting that the French Navy will provide Rafale Ms (from its own stock) for the Indian Navy to train on. Delivery will happen within six months of contract signature. So late 2024 / early 2025 at the earliest.

Post deal, French Navy to provide its own Rafale Marine aircraft to Indian Navy for training
https://www.aninews.in/news/world/asia/ ... 713190824/
13 July 2023

[Cain Marko]

Scalp. Can Scalp be used as an anti-ship weapon ?

Not sure tbh. It is a land attack CM afaik. won't work against ships as it is not fast enough at it's range...500km+. Travels less than mach 1. It'll take 30 minutes or more to reach target in which time the target could've moved quite a bit from original position.
Maybe mid course guidance can mitigate the situation via some kind of mpa craft or satellite feed, but that's doubtful. I believe the LRSSM has this.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/167 ... 03648?s=20 ---> PM @NarendraModi formally announces 'cooperation' with France on naval fighters & submarines -- to be read as the Rafale M and Scorpene procurements -- that will now be negotiated by teams on both sides.

[ArjunPandit]

there was a question in joint presser that no mention of rafale m..

[Rakesh]

Why do you think that is the case?

The Raksha Mantri has stated that it is Rafale M.

[Rakesh]

Lots of rona-dhona on twitter against PM Modi - in his press communique - by him using the term 'naval aircraft' rather than specifically stating R-A-F-A-L-E. Dassault came out with a fantastic press release confirming that they have won the Indian Navy's Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter contest. This will bring the rona-dhona to a stop. All concerns about Rafale not fitting on the lifts of the Vikrant, navigating the Vikrant's hangar, taking off from and landing on the Vikrant should now be alleviated.

India selects the Navy Rafale
https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/gr ... vy-rafale/
14 July 2023

(Saint-Cloud, France, July 14, 2023) – The Indian Government announced the selection of the Navy Rafale to equip the Indian Navy with a latest-generation fighter. Following an international competition launched by the Indian authorities, this decision comes after a successful trial campaign held in India, during which the Navy Rafale demonstrated that it fully met the Indian Navy’s operational requirements and was perfectly suited to the specificities of its aircraft carrier.

The Indian Navy’s 26 Rafale will eventually join the 36 Rafale already in service, which are giving full satisfaction to the Indian Air Force, making India the first country to make the same military choice as France by operating both versions of the aircraft to help consolidate its superiority in the air and on the seas and guarantee its sovereignty.

This selection confirms the excellence of the Rafale, the exceptional quality of the link between Dassault Aviation and the Indian Forces, and the importance of the strategic relationship between India and France. “As we celebrate the 70th anniversary of our partnership with the Indian Forces, I would like to thank the Indian authorities for this new mark of confidence and pledge, on behalf of Dassault Aviation, that we will fully meet the Indian Navy’s expectations with the Rafale”, said Eric Trappier, Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation.

[MeshaVishwas]

Interesting to see our old Sea Kings upgraded with the EO/IR Ball

Image shared by the Western Naval Command on Twitter

A Seaking helicopter of the #IndianNavy was launched from #INSShikra at about 0900 h on 15 Jul for medical evacuation of a Filipino citizen suffering acute appendicitis aboard MV Saipem Endeavour, 55 nautical miles SW of Mumbai.

[chetak]

Rafale-M Jets For India: French Navy Sweetens The Deal, To Send Own Rafales For Training
https://www.aninews.in/news/world/asia/ ... 713190824/
13 July 2023

According to a report by ANI, the French Navy is willing to transfer two to four Rafale-Ms from their own inventory, six months after the date of contract signing, to India for training the Indian Navy pilots. Notably, the first Indian Rafales will only be delivered after 36 months from the date of contract signing.

[Cyrano]

Rafale-M Jets For India: French Navy Sweetens The Deal, To Send Own Rafales For Training
https://www.aninews.in/news/world/asia/ ... 713190824/
13 July 2023

I remember posting on the Rafale thread, that the order book of Dassault Aviation was overflowing and they were building new factories, hiring lots of people etc. After IAF selected the Rafales, it seems the entire world queued up ! Now after 3 years we have ordered another small batch of Rafale M. But more than at Dassault, its their suppliers who need to get into top gear and ensure that many many parts, components and sub assemblies are supplied on time. Idem for Safran for M88 engines, Thales for avionics & optronics etc etc..
Lets hope they can meet the signature + 36 months schedule - which is still a challenge.

[Rakesh]

The line at Mérignac can churn out 33 Rafales per year. If the contract requires the first set of deliveries to occur within three years, then Dassault will have to meet its obligations. There might still be a problem though. See below.

Currently on Production Line;

* Greece: Ordered 24 Rafales in total. As of June 2023, 15 Rafales have been delivered.
* France: ~28 aircraft still to be delivered and will be completed in 2024.

Upcoming/Pending Orders;

1. Croatia: 12 Rafales on order
2. Indonesia: 42 Rafales on order
3. UAE: 80 Rafales on order

It is the above three countries that is going to put a lot of pressure on the production line. I am unsure of the production schedule that any of these countries have signed up for, but the first batch of UAE Rafales are due to be delivered in 2027. The only workable solution around this is a local production line to be set up in India.

I am hearing talk of the Rafale M order to be made in the country. But Dassault will not transfer a production line for a meagre 26 aircraft and they require a minimum 100 aircraft order. The only way that is going to happen, is the IAF orders a second tranche of Rafale C/Bs. With Safran winning the tender for the JV with GTRE to develop a new generation turbofan for the AMCA program, it appears that all the building blocks are being put in place for a large Rafale order (from the IAF) to be announced post the 2024 general elections.

As mentioned in the past, it is prohibitively expensive to have three different acquisition programs;

- A stand alone fleet of 26 MRCBF i.e. F-18 Super Hornet
- A separate MRFA order i.e. any aircraft other than Rafale
- A joint venture with GE or RR to develop a new generation turbofan

If all three above are combined together, it will make it a lot more palatable to the Govt and to the services. Also a lot more easier to partner with one OEM (and one country), than work with multiple countries to achieve the same result. These are strategic purchases that have long term (decade wise) implications for the nation's security. Now with the MRCBF confirmation and JV confirmation, it is really pointing to more Rafales for the IAF. I do believe 2024, will result in an announcement of a minimum of 74 Rafale aircraft for the IAF. It could go higher to even 90 aircraft or more, depending upon how much phoren MRFA the IAF wants to induct in the fleet.

[Barath]

IN Rafales. As and when IN gets its 26 Rafales, what weapon will it able able to fire ? ...
Scalp. Can Scalp be used as an anti-ship weapon ? ...

Dassault still highlights the exocet anti ship missile on its rafale weapons cleared page

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/de ... d-weapons/

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 35548.html

Of course the mdcn aka naval scalp ireportedly may be offered to replace exocets fired from the kalvari/scorpene class..but is not air launchable

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MdCN_(missile)

The Rafale M achieved FOC F3R in 2021 , but India may be able to use some ISE or even F4-1 features , even if ordered now, as 4.1 is also delivered for rafale in general

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... apability/

https://theaviationist.com/2023/04/02/r ... -fielding/

[Rakesh]

Rafale M is fully compatible with the Nimitz Class aircraft carriers of the US Navy. Interoperability is thus available to the US Navy, if they feel the need to exercise that option. Indian Navy Rafale Ms will also be compatible with the Charles De Gaulle. Expect catapult launches from both types, during future joint naval exercises.

‘Combat proven’, multi-tasker: All about Rafale M fighter aircraft India is set to buy from France
https://theprint.in/defence/combat-prov ... e/1669799/
15 July 2023

“The Rafale M is the only non-US type of fighter cleared to operate from the decks of US carriers, using their catapults and their arresting gear,” the company states on its website.

[Rakesh]

From the official Twitter account of Safran.

https://twitter.com/SAFRAN/status/16801 ... 19680?s=20 ---> Congratulations to India and to Dassault on the selection of the Navy Rafale. M88 engines, inertial navigation systems, auxiliary power units, landing & braking systems, wiring……we are proud to supply a number of key equipment to the Navy Rafale.

https://twitter.com/SAFRAN/status/16801 ... 10369?s=20 ---> India selects the Navy Rafale: can you name all the equipment Safran is supplying on board the Navy Rafale aircraft?

[ramana]

Think of a RafaleM with Scalp missile patrolling from Nicobar Island base.

[Kersi]

From the official Twitter account of Safran.

https://twitter.com/SAFRAN/status/16801 ... 10369?s=20 ---> India selects the Navy Rafale: can you name all the equipment Safran is supplying on board the Navy Rafale aircraft?

I thought the ejection seat was of Martin Baker ?

[Kersi]

Think of a RafaleM with Scalp missile patrolling from Nicobar Island base.

Think of few SU30MKI based on A&N, with Brahmos or Brahmos NG oe Nirbahy

[Manish_P]

IIRC AM Chopra (Rtd) had mentioned that the costs of the 'costly' Mirage 2000 started becoming lower than the costs of the 'cheap' MiG 29 after a period of just 5 years.

Would that also hold true for the Rafale vis-a-vis the Su 30 MKI?

[Kartik]

From the official Twitter account of Safran.

https://twitter.com/SAFRAN/status/16801 ... 10369?s=20 ---> India selects the Navy Rafale: can you name all the equipment Safran is supplying on board the Navy Rafale aircraft?

I thought the ejection seat was of Martin Baker ?

It is. Safran builds the parachute and oxygen supply unit for the pilot while the ejection seat is the MK 16F from Martin Baker.

Mk16 ejection seat for Rafale

[Kartik]

It has now begun to sink in that the Super Hornet line cannot be saved by the Indian Navy competition. It will most likely close by 2025 in the absence of any new orders.

Indian Navy decision further seals fate of Super Hornet