Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 01 Jul 2023 05:48

so they are reviving the ToT with this refit and the MOU signed with ThyssenKrupp - good - finally - better late than never.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Jul 2023 20:13

No you are reading too much into that. The 209 still has some service life left in it.

Based on the sub shortage. It's a logical step to be taken by the Navy.

The alternative would have been to de comission the boat.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jul 2023 03:23

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 24449?s=20 ---> The indigenous SSK design will be ready in 2028: MDL Chief

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Jul 2023 03:50

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 24449?s=20 ---> The indigenous SSK design will be ready in 2028: MDL Chief

And first one to roll out in 2037.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Jul 2023 08:36

I guess we can now end the P75I procurement process.

Because even if the boats are ordered today. The first boats will not be in the water before 2035.

What is another 2 years in the life of Indian procurement system?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Jul 2023 09:30

If the SSNs start coming before that, it better keep refitting 8 Kilos, 4 HDW 209, 6 Scorpenes plus any SSN leased from Russia. SSN we build apart from SSBN for Nuke deterence. Better to have Submarine production in-house. The Pak submarine fleet will take some time, as the Chinese deliveries will take time. Agosta 70B practically do not sail. Notwithstanding the never ending Turkish refit of Agosta 90B, which I doubt will work. We have this 10-15 years to set up our ecosystem. We can never take on the Chinese with mostly imported weaponry.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Jul 2023 18:18

The trick to corrupt procurement ecosystem is to throttle down the r&d and indigenous manufacturing process and to create an emergency sales/Fms/lm . With a little money and influence to drag out the planning and procurement goi has no choice but to lean on foreign products.

Successive governments including this one just don’t understand what it takes to build a proper MIC.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jul 2023 23:07

P-75I and/or additional Scorpene SSKs are coming. An Indian designed, developed & manufactured SSK is still a long ways off.

The Navy cannot afford to wait that long.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jul 2023 23:08

https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/167 ... 82856?s=20 ---> The construction of the SBC-2 (Ship Building Centre) at Vizag could be completed by 2024 end. The SBC-2 will be the assembly line for 6 P-75A Class SSN for the Indian Navy. Hull-section modules will be fabricated first at L&T's Hazira facility & then arrive at Vizag for final assembly. Speculations are that fabrication of hull modules have already begun at Hazira with the DMR-292A/292B steel being produced by SAIL and might start arriving at Vizag by 2025. India & France are also in talks to develop Pump-jet propulsion for these SSNs. India to initially construct three such SSNs.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Jul 2023 08:38

What was the capacity of Sub building centre of MDL?

IIRC, it was 11. But am unable to find actual news reference. Wikipedia is useless.

What is the existing capacity of the Vizag SBC 1. That plus 6.

IIRC, L&T had also created capacity for submarine building.

IIRC, before the Vizag SBC 2 India had the ability to produce 19 submarines at any point in time, using all yards in India. With Vizag SBC 2. It goes up to 25.

What is missing is the orders for new boats.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Jul 2023 16:40

The best news of the day. Hopefully it is true. I am really happy.

DRDO's AIP likely coming aboard Kalvari Class submarines. Jai Hind!

Kursura and Vagli will be reborn again!

Indian Navy to get 26 Rafale-M fighters and three attack submarines from France
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 56665.html
10 July 2023

According to inputs from South Block, a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has been convened by defence minister Rajnath Singh on July 13 for granting acceptance of necessity (AON) to the Indian Navy to acquire 26 Rafale-M fighters as well as give the green signal to the building of three more Kalveri class submarines at the MDL. The last of the six Kalveri class submarine, INS Vagsheer, is expected to be commissioned next year with the vessel currently undergoing tests and trials.

The three additional Kalveri class submarines will be fitted with air independent propulsion (AIP), which has been designed by the DRDO but will be tested and validated by the French Naval Group.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Jul 2023 18:07

Three more Scorpenes coming!!!

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/167 ... 09920?s=20 ---> Indian MoD defence procurement board (DPB) clears procurement of 26 Rafale M fighters for the Indian Navy and 3 additional Scorpène submarines to be built at Mazagon Docks Ltd. Announcement possible during PM Modi’s Paris visit on July 13-14.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Jul 2023 02:51

Rakesh wrote: ↑10 Jul 2023 18:07 Three more Scorpenes coming!!!

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/167 ... 09920?s=20 ---> Indian MoD defence procurement board (DPB) clears procurement of 26 Rafale M fighters for the Indian Navy and 3 additional Scorpène submarines to be built at Mazagon Docks Ltd. Announcement possible during PM Modi’s Paris visit on July 13-14.

Yaasssss!! Now to have IAF order another 50-100 Tejas mk1A.

Can't believe I'm so excited about something that should be a no brainer. Effed procurement system. Poor jingos will celebrate any crumbs thrown at them!

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 11 Jul 2023 12:53

Glass 1/3 full: super-excited that commonsense prevailed! DRDO AIP-equipped Scorpenes will be a cherry on top!

Glass 2/3 empty: could have done this 3 years ago and not waited for the MDL line to go idle. And what's with 3 more? Why not do 6 more or 9 more and kill the P-75I nonsense! Especially if we are doing cutting edge AIP work, how does it justify building just 3 more. The AIP design has to be customized for each class of boat. So it makes all the more sense to build enough of them

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 11 Jul 2023 17:08

^^Sirji by the time the three Pandubbi are built, the requirements for newer ones would include Satellite KIller missile launch capability Who knows!!

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 11 Jul 2023 18:38

Prem Kumar wrote: ↑11 Jul 2023 12:53 Glass 1/3 full: super-excited that commonsense prevailed! DRDO AIP-equipped Scorpenes will be a cherry on top!

Glass 2/3 empty: could have done this 3 years ago and not waited for the MDL line to go idle. And what's with 3 more? Why not do 6 more or 9 more and kill the P-75I nonsense! Especially if we are doing cutting edge AIP work, how does it justify building just 3 more. The AIP design has to be customized for each class of boat. So it makes all the more sense to build enough of them

If we stabilize a platform, there is significantly less commision to be made by foreign procurement guys.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 12 Jul 2023 00:48

Prem Kumar wrote: ↑11 Jul 2023 12:53 Glass 1/3 full: super-excited that commonsense prevailed! DRDO AIP-equipped Scorpenes will be a cherry on top!

Glass 2/3 empty: could have done this 3 years ago and not waited for the MDL line to go idle. And what's with 3 more? Why not do 6 more or 9 more and kill the P-75I nonsense! Especially if we are doing cutting edge AIP work, how does it justify building just 3 more. The AIP design has to be customized for each class of boat. So it makes all the more sense to build enough of them

I think IN wants slightly larger boats. I think the bigger boat will win the next tender. Of course, the Indian boat is the one to watch in the next decade. Batteries will probably be the way to go next. Batteries will certainly become lighter and more dense, and less inflammable.

Maybe after 3 more boats, we won't really need to add any more boats at all and just go with an Indian design. If they can get a small nuclear battery of 200-500KW sustained power, these diesels will be at a different level altogether. Would love to see a Diesel + battery + small nuke battery design = 4K tons.

vonkabra · Post by **vonkabra** » 12 Jul 2023 10:26

Basic query, but does the IN Scorpene have a towed array sonar? Some news articles mentioned so, but they seemed more copy-paste than anything else, while HI Sutton, who is a reputed analyst doesn't show any towed array for the Indian Scorpene in his cutaway (it's for the Scorpene with proposed AIP):

http://www.hisutton.com/images/Kalvari- ... utaway.jpg

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jul 2023 20:36

In a first, Navy submarine periscope refurbished indigenously with CSIO in Chandigarh executing the project
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... ect-524767
11 July 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jul 2023 22:22

https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/167 ... 48768?s=20 ---> General Anil Chauhan commissioned the new state-of-the-art hangar at INS Utkrosh (Port Blair) in Andaman & Nicobar Command yesterday.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Jul 2023 16:41

From the Twitter Account of the Office of the Raksha Mantri. Official confirmation that three more Scorpenes are coming.

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 23553?s=20 ---> The DAC also granted the AoN for procurement of three additional Scorpene submarines under Buy (Indian) category which will be constructed by Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL).

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 42723?s=20 ---> The procurement of additional submarines, with higher indigenous content, will not only help in maintaining required force level and operational readiness of the Indian Navy, but also create significant employment opportunities in domestic sector. It will also help the MDL in further enhancing its capability and expertise in submarine construction.

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 83874?s=20 ---> In addition, the DAC approved the proposal to lay down guidelines for achieving the desired indigenous content in all categories of capital acquisition cases. It will help in achieving ‘Aatmanirbharta’ in critical manufacturing technologies and life-cycle sustenance of defence platforms/equipment through indigenous manufacturing.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Jul 2023 18:50

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/167 ... 35937?s=20 ---> First statement from the Indian MoD on clearance for a to-be-negotiated deal for 26 Dassault Rafale fighters for the Indian Navy and three additional Made-in-India Scorpène submarines:

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Jul 2023 19:01

The French are reportedly offering the Naval SCALP cruise missile for this upcoming batch of Scorpene submarines.

India May Locally Manufacture French Naval 'Scalp' Cruise Missile For Navy's Scorpene Submarines: Report
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/india-m ... nes-report
13 July 2023

Info Sheet on Naval SCALP ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MdCN_(missile)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Jul 2023 20:13

France ready to offer naval SCALP missile with three Scorpene subs
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 00481.html
13 July 2023

While Indian Navy officials and diplomats have seen the performance of the Naval SCALP in France, it is understood that the missile manufacturer is willing to produce the cruise weapon in India under the “Make in India” route.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Jul 2023 21:35

I hope they negotiate a variant of Shakti, Takshak torpedoes and capability of firing Brahmos NG, can the French agree to make the Torpedo tubes to be 3ft longer than NATO standard?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Jul 2023 21:13

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/167 ... 03648?s=20 ---> PM @NarendraModi formally announces 'cooperation' with France on naval fighters & submarines -- to be read as the Rafale M and Scorpene procurements -- that will now be negotiated by teams on both sides.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Jul 2023 11:34

Rakesh, do we know if the new scorpenes will have the DRDO AIP plug or not ?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Jul 2023 17:32

Rahul M wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023 11:34 Rakesh, do we know if the new scorpenes will have the DRDO AIP plug or not ?

Yes, they will be fitted with the DRDO AIP.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jul 2023 19:25

Rahul M wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023 11:34 Rakesh, do we know if the new scorpenes will have the DRDO AIP plug or not ?

Just like Pratyush said above and there is more. Check out this official press release from Naval Group.

DRDO’s Fuel Cell-based Air Independent Propulsion system to soon be fitted onboard INS Kalvari
https://www.naval-group.com/en/drdos-fu ... ns-kalvari
23 Jan 2023

===============================

* INS Kalvari will be first boat to have a AIP plug installed and the remaining five will have the same done, during their refits. As per the above news item, land based testing of the AIP has been successfully conducted.

* Next is integration of the AIP plug when INS Kalvari heads in for her refit. I believe that will happen very soon. I have read reports about this refit, as early as this year. But submarine news - the world over - is very sketchy and rightfully so. So hard to pin down an exact date and we will likely know, till well after the refit is underway or even complete.

* DRDO is pretty upbeat about the design and Naval Group will certify the AIP design for integration aboard the boat. This is the same Naval Group that was apprehensive about this particular AIP plug. So the 180 turn around is a huge welcome news and points to technological success.

* This will be a boost to the Kalvari Class, especially post the Australian Scorpene leak episode. My educated guess tells me that this AIP plug from DRDO is what likely gave the Indian Navy the confidence to order three more boats. The Navy was wary to order additional boats, post the Scorpene leak. But kudos to the French for persisting and keeping the offer alive.

* To answer your question, the three additional Scorpene boats will also feature the same AIP plug and will be installed in the construction stage. By the time these plugs are installed on these three boats, the learning curve for MDL will be down to virtually zero as they will have sufficient experience installing them on the earlier boats in the Class.

* DRDO is also testing a Li-Ion battery system and an electric propulsion motor on a Kilo Class boat. So Project 75(I) will likely have such a system on-board, provided the testing goes successfully. The Germans are leading the pack in the P-75I competition with the Type 216, with the South Koreans a close second with the KSS-III. A Type 216 design with Li-Ion + electric propulsion will be a very potent platform. But I do not want to count chickens before they hatch, so will wait for more news.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Jul 2023 20:44

Any chance if we are cutting open the Kalvari class to put the AIP , we can also increase thier Torpedo tubes length, to fit Shakti and Takshak torpedoes

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jul 2023 23:39

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/168 ... 57280?s=20 ---> JUST IN: ⁦@navalgroup_IN welcomes Indian Govt indications on adding to the existing Scorpène submarine build program in India.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Jul 2023 14:31

thanks to both of you for the lucid explanation. this is good to know.

looks like DRDO is testing out a range of propulsion options before selecting one for the future. signs of a maturing industrial base.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jul 2023 00:00

You are welcome RahulM and well said wrt to maturing industrial base.

‘Stealthy and fast’: All about the Scorpene submarines that India is set to acquire more of from France
https://theprint.in/defence/stealthy-an ... e/1671722/
16 July 2023

mody · Post by **mody** » 18 Jul 2023 17:18

Aditya_V wrote: ↑15 Jul 2023 20:44 Any chance if we are cutting open the Kalvari class to put the AIP , we can also increase thier Torpedo tubes length, to fit Shakti and Takshak torpedoes

Just a small correction, the Takshak Torpedo is no longer in use. The Varunastra torpedo has replaced the Takshak. Varunastra has been inducted by the Navy in the ship launched version and the recently a test was conducted for the submarine launched version. From chaiwalla sources, this was perhaps the first test from an actual sub. However, tests from platforms probably number close to 70!!

Most likely there is no chance the Kalvari Class will be modified to accommodate the Varunastra torpedo, which has a longer length. One can hope that for the likely order for 3 new subs, they make the necessary changes in the design to incorporate the Indian torpedoes.

For the Kalvari Class, I hope after the recent visit of the Italian PM, the relationship has improved enough to order the WASS Black Shark torpedoes. The old German wire guided SUT torpedoes are long in the tooth.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jul 2023 18:44

Details about DRDO's AIP system

France gives India’s subs a stealthy tech boost
https://asiatimes.com/2023/01/france-gi ... ech-boost/
30 Jan 2023

The report did not mention specifics about the AIP’s performance, but did say it is unique in generating hydrogen onboard instead of storing it aboard in liquid form. India’s new AIP system is most likely derived from Naval Group’s Fuel Cell Second Generation (FC2G) model, which cracks diesel fuel in a reformer to extract hydrogen, using liquid oxygen and nitrogen as oxidizers. When the hydrogen is mixed with oxygen, it generates electricity to charge the submarine’s batteries and produces water used in the cracking process.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jul 2023 18:49

Naval Group working on qualifying DRDO-developed Air Independent Propulsion system for installation on Scorpenes
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 091237.ece
17 July 2023

The Navy has drawn up plans to install Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) modules on all Scorpene submarines as they go for their refit beginning with INS Kalvari likely by end next year to enhance their endurance. The indigenous AIP module has been tested on shore and recently DRDO and Naval Group signed an agreement to integrate the AIP module on the Scorpene.

“We are actively supporting the DRDO in qualifying indigenous supplier of liquid oxygen tank and preparation of the future stage of “jumboisation” [making the new hull, integrate safely the AIP, cut the submarine and join it with new AIP section] during submarine’s normal refit,” Mr. Pommellet said.

In addition to submarines, Naval Group has signed MoUs with Hindustan Shipyard Limited, Visakhapatnam to support their bid for the Navy’s Landing Platform Dock (LPD) ships and with Larsen and Toubro (L&T) to support their midget submarine development.

The Indo-French joint statement issued on July 14 hailed the success of the first Scorpene submarine construction programme and the sharing of naval expertise between companies in the two countries and added, “India and France are ready to explore more ambitious projects to develop the Indian submarine fleet and its performance.”

Naval Group working on qualifying DRDO-developed Air Independent Propulsion system for installation on Scorpenes
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/three-n ... ntegration
18 July 2023

According to reports, the first Scorpene submarine, INS Kalvari will undergo AIP installation when it goes for its first refit, by the end of 2024. According to a report by The Hindu, Naval Group has commenced work to integrate these AIP systems on the submarines and has already invested more than Rs 100 crore for establishing three workshops and procuring tools and infrastructure necessary for the integration.

“We are actively supporting the DRDO in qualifying indigenous supplier of liquid oxygen tank and preparation of the future stage of 'jumboisation' (making the new hull, integrate safely the AIP, cut the submarine and join it with new AIP section) during submarine’s normal refit,” said Pierre Éric Pommellet, CEO of Naval Group. "The AIP system will increase the underwater endurance of submarines from three days to a week to more than two to three weeks". The integration of an AIP module requires cutting the host submarine hull in half, adding the AIP module in the middle and welding the hull back, after rejoining all the pipings, mechanical and electrical systems.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jul 2023 18:50

New Scorpenes to have 60% indigenous content, says Naval Group CEO
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 769806.cms
15 July 2023

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 26 Jul 2023 10:58

Some more confirmations - and now timelines as well:
Contract for three more Scorpene submarines likely by end-2024; first delivery expected by 2031

The contract is expected to be concluded by end next year and delivery of the first submarine is expected by 2031. If a proven, functional Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) module is provided by the Defence Research and Development Organisation [DRDO] as per the construction schedule, it will be fitted on the submarines,” a defence official said.
...
...
A Defence Ministry statement said the three additional submarines would have higher indigenous content and would also come fitted with the DRDO-developed AIP system to enhance their endurance.
...
...
Separately, Naval Group is working with the DRDO to integrate the indigenous AIP module on the existing Scorpene submarines in service as they go for normal refit, beginning with INS Kalvari end-2024 or early-2025.
...
...

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 26 Jul 2023 11:14

maitya wrote: ↑26 Jul 2023 10:58 Some more confirmations - and now timelines as well:
Contract for three more Scorpene submarines likely by end-2024; first delivery expected by 2031

Contract End 2024. Delivery 2031.

Ridiculous.

I would rather buy 3 submarines (maybe build 3 more in MDL as per above schedule) and concentrate of a new Indian designed SSK and SSN.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Jul 2023 11:20

The most ridiculous aspect of Indian submarine program is the raw industrial capacity for submarine building.

But the Navy is just incapable of selection of design.