Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

bala · Post by **bala** » 19 Jul 2023 00:25

The French have been more forthcoming with technology than the others. On the Vikas engine story, Nambi Narayan and team from ISRO were hired by the French space agency because they faced shortage of manpower. It is another story wherein Nambi and team were able to fix some performance issues with Viking engine of France. India's vikas was essentially recreated from working experience/memory in India and the French agreed to test the engine on their test bed.

On the engine front, India is gathering expertize on manufacturing both military and civilian. Already Safran signed a deal with GMR Group for MRO of LEAP turbofan engines. The SME/LE ecosystem within India can produce various parts/subassemblies. However, as pointed out by Maitya and others, getting Kaveri to the next step requires deeper understanding of materials/technology for the hot section. India is still lacking a test bed aircraft to try various combinations from GTRE/DRDO labs/IIT, NiT brain power.

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 19 Jul 2023 02:14

srin wrote: ↑17 Jul 2023 06:34 ^^^ A marine gas turbine engine is sadly missing here. We need to do more than assemble LM2500.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/kaveri-marine-gas-turbine

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 19 Jul 2023 06:01

Rakesh wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023 20:24 https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 25732?s=20 ---> It is not a done deal yet, but all indications are that Safran Aircraft Engines of France, is confident of powering India's future helicopters and AMCA over the next 15 years. BharatShakti Editor-in-Chief, Nitin Gokhale visited Safran last week.

From this interview, the IMRH engine is a HAL-SAFRAN joint venture where they put in the money for the effort. That's pretty bold on HAL! Good stuff...

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 19 Jul 2023 07:10

in joint venture or joint development, does the hot section still gets produced in France and India makes some other ancillary parts?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 19 Jul 2023 07:25

Dunno, but dang, they will need about 20% better engine than the Mi17 from all the news sources. So a 3350 shp / 2500 kW per engine is what they will target, or more than that... So it will be a new effort (development of Anteo class of engines). Even if India makes the complete cold section and they purchase the hot section, we still have lots of control... One day we can add our own hot section.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Jul 2023 08:10

drnayar wrote: ↑19 Jul 2023 02:14
srin wrote: ↑17 Jul 2023 06:34 ^^^ A marine gas turbine engine is sadly missing here. We need to do more than assemble LM2500.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/kaveri-marine-gas-turbine

Built for air force, Kaveri engine chosen by navy
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 089_1.html
20 Jan 2023

The article says that 42 engines are required by the Navy over the next 15 years. The engine has performed well till now. But it needs to under go atleast another 15000 hours of testing. The Navy has committed 25% of the funds required for the completion of the test program.

The another thing reported, is that Navy has already received marine gas generator based on derated Kaveri engines.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jul 2023 08:25

fanne wrote: ↑19 Jul 2023 07:10 in joint venture or joint development, does the hot section still gets produced in France and India makes some other ancillary parts?

With the French in particular it depends on the purse strings.

Random thoughts:

Safran has self funded the engine meant for the tri-nation (France, Germany, and Spain) 6th Gen craft. The funding they were expecting from the consortium did not materialize (it is more than an year late by now)!! Imo, India should take huge advantage of this. I do not see those nations funding an engine. Their national focus is Elensky, not a 6th Gen craft. India should make a deal with Safran, NOT France.

And, Germany in particular and EU in general has experienced a decline in their GDP. If the next winter is bad they will sink further, while India makes more money. In the event France sinks, Safran moves to India and the JV continues uninterrupted.

Imo, a JV with either RR or Safran runs a very large risk - will the nations even exist (recall I had said that Indians should pick up CNC machines on the cheap from Germany,. Ache din abhi bhi baki hai. Bharitiy ke liye).

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Jul 2023 08:31

More than picking up used machines. We need to learn how to make said machines.

That is more important than just picking up used machines.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 19 Jul 2023 08:40

Pratyush wrote: ↑19 Jul 2023 08:31 More than picking up used machines. We need to learn how to make said machines.

That is more important than just picking up used machines.

Some might remember the red hot debate on BRF with SS (where is he these days?) versus others in relation to significance and need of making the machines that make the machines. I think Jaan Umrao also piped in. Those were the days.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jul 2023 09:04

Pratyush wrote: ↑19 Jul 2023 08:31 More than picking up used machines. We need to learn how to make said machines.

That is more important than just picking up used machines.

It will take India decades to catch up with Germany.

I am talking of making the German standards ubiquitous in India. Not an area JUST dominated be ISRO, HAL, DRDO, etc. Every Indian should talk (which in my interactions they do not) in terms of 1/1000 of an inch (convert that to metrics) which I can do in my garage today!!

Yes, EVERY instrument I have in my garage is capable of dealing with 1/1000th of an inch.

The machines I am alluding to is one of a kind.

A lot more to unpack.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 19 Jul 2023 12:50

Rakesh wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023 20:24 https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 25732?s=20 ---> It is not a done deal yet, but all indications are that Safran Aircraft Engines of France, is confident of powering India's future helicopters and AMCA over the next 15 years. BharatShakti Editor-in-Chief, Nitin Gokhale visited Safran last week.

Very good interview, especially the answers that were provided - also touches a wide variety of topics wrt turbofan dev/mfg initiatives in India.

Especially how beautifully the difference between design/dev vs manufacturing of a military turbofan engine is explained that too at a very high level, in lay-man terms (also notice how Nitin G mixes up mfg vs design/dev aspects, in the question, probably intentionally to elicit an answer).

...
"Designing an engine has nothing to do with manufacturing an engine - you can get the competency of manufacturing engine but getting the know-how and know-why of designing an engine is another story"
...

Bonus ofcourse, is the re-affirmation of the timelines and budgets involved for such design/dev initiatives - it'll not be cheap nor will it be quick, it was never supposed to be anyway, so no surprises there.

Watch from 12:35 onwards ...

Trouble is most people, including many here in BRF, doesn't even appreciate that the design know-how/know-why of a 4-gen turbofan engine has already been mastered indigenously (primarily via Kaveri program and also via HTFE/HTSE etc programs) - only because there are no demonstrable flying product available currently.

So no, GTRE/MIDHANI/DMRL et all is not going to start like a bunch of wide-eyed-novices if (and when) these join-dev etc program materializes - and, who better than Safran to be aware of these competency (and weaknesses too) levels.
(they are, after all, the most consulted OEM for the entire Kaveri program, and that's across about 2+ decades).

But that itself is a disadvantage for us, given the baboon competency wrt appreciating such nuances and thus work towards drafting a water-tight agreement etc

After all, designing/developing a 110KN thrust 4th gen turbofan is well within GTRE/DMRL/MIDHANI et all reach - just look at the AL-31FP specs, compare to what has been achieved in the Kaveri program, try and see at a component-by-component level what indigenous aspects could be easily incorporated into such an design etc and it shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend this.

But do you see even a whimper of this indigenous route being encouraged/sanctioned - NO.

Just imagine, all these co-dev negotiations happening with a parallel-program of indigenous dev of 110KN thrust-class 4th gen turbofan program fully on ...

Oh well ...

Jits · Post by **Jits** » 19 Jul 2023 16:34

Fighter jet engine: How India is filling gaps in critical materials, core-technology
https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... y-3174356/
17 July 2023

With the rocketing success of the Indian space programme—as advanced among the world’s top 4 space entities—which is driven by Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), the question is often being raised in comparison to military aerospace projects. Straight away, the questions hint at the development of fighter jets and to be specific the jet engine. While the LCA Tejas did succeed with 4+ generation capabilities, it failed to develop a viable and functional jet engine, beginning with the Kaveri engine.

In fact, it is the jet engine that is still defined as the most complex technological feat in the era of artificial intelligence and machine learning.

That is now set to change as the government strived to fill that technological void. The radical approach and importance that the government adopted, led to two leading global engine makers joining hands with India.

The recent talks with world-leading original engine manufacturer (OEM) Safran is a defining moment which actually lays the foundation of a new jet engine with best of class thrust ratio to power next-generation (5+) fighter jets.

However, it is important to understand what is actually needed to develop a jet engine which could power India’s highly ambitious programmes like Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) and possibly Tejas Mk2.

The technological gaps are well understood now as India learnt during the development stage of the Kaveri engine, which was sanctioned in 1989 for LCA Tejas.

Propulsion technologies
The jet engine is fundamentally all about the three highly complex core elements – advanced materials and process technology, combustion technology and Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) in engine design procedures.

Worldwide, all gas turbine engines have now improved turbine inlet temperature and compressor pressure ratio. The core functional aspect of the turbine has been transformed with a greater bypass ratio and nacelle performance which also boosts emissions.

The Kaveri turbofan engine faced thrust deficit performance at high altitudes, excessive weight and a “mysterious noise”. The noise that emanates from the excessive heat in the core could not be rectified but that corresponded to the material within.

The material in question is the superalloys which can withstand combustion heat beyond 1,800°C. To generate 110-kN wet and 75-kN dry thrust aimed at new engines for Indian fighter jets, the higher heat- resistance materials were needed. And that is about finding high-temperature materials-mix and technology to process it for jet engine. Mostly, silicon carbide (SiC) and ceramic matrix composite systems are the proven ones for jet engines which India lacked. Besides, ceramic matrix composite materials are a choice for aerospace structural parts, which are largely utilized by the world’s leading global engine manufacturers, Safran and GE among others.

Despite the challenges, ISRO has successfully used such complex materials, especially Carbon-carbon composites for aerospace structures in the parts of gas turbine engines such as flaps, vanes, seals and liners. That remains for India’s ingenious plan for jet engine.

That is where the recent development and foreign collaborations matter where India needs to address the ceramic matrix composites (CMCs) for engine, especially the core.

Both global leaders of the jet engine — Safran Aircraft Engines and GE – can resolve the materials issues. In fact, jointly, Safran and GE have established an entity which is known as CFM Materials for their existing and futuristic jet engine.

Additionally, the CMCs are also being tested with CentrAl reinforced aluminium (CentrAl) which can drastically improve performance and reduce the cost of aircraft manufacturing. CentrAl has proved to be 25% more tensile strength than high-strength aluminium alloys, with high fatigue resistance and high damage tolerance. For example, CentrAI has made a massive difference in CFM LEAP high-bypass turbofan engines which reduced fuel consumption by 16%.

Safran’s LEAP Engine
Another key area that is being addressed, focuses on the CFD for jet engine solutions in the areas such as aerodynamics (Fluid Analysis), structure-fluid interface analysis, and heat transfer analysis. Besides, the CFD will provide tech capability for components managing heat in avionics systems, electrical and electronics systems, landing gear wheels, air-conditioning units, fuselage and cockpit pressurization units. The CFD will be crucial for fluid analysis, and aerodynamic analysis in aircraft comprising pressure, velocity, lift, drag, etc.

The other areas which need to be highlighted are single crystal blade technology, integrated rotor disk and blades. These are again highly dependent on the advanced materials mix.

Safran-HAL co-development
Once we cross the materials issue, the next stage is about developing capabilities for the supply chain of components & ancillaries in India for the next-generation 110 KN engine for AMCA and MRFA.

Safran is already heavily investing in 6th generation fighter aircraft with afterburner thrust of 125 kN. That if it is well negotiated, will design & develop a 110kN engine with India without any hiccups and clauses which is prevalent in the inner world of elusive jet technology.

Here, the collaboration will enable critical cast components of Titanium and Super Alloys. India can not only leverage Safran’s M88 engines which power Rafale fighter jets but the new -engine for military aircraft engine and other critical applications.

Collaboration is a much better option for India as it tests our real ambitions & efforts for such high tech. DRDO’s Gas Turbine Research Engine (GTRE) has achieved some good fundamental success in single crystal blades where the French giant Safran will play an immense role which includes the core material, computational fluid dynamics & heat management etc.

In fact, Safran has proposed a better engine core than M-88 which powers Rafale.

Besides, Safran Helicopter Engines and HAL are already in the process of setting up their new joint venture company in Bengaluru, which will be dedicated to the design, development, production and support of helicopter engines for the 13-ton Indian Multi-Role Helicopters (IMRH) and its naval version, the Deck Based Multi-Role Helicopter (DBMRH).

In fact, elaborating on the proposed collaboration, Cedric Goubet, CEO of Safran Helicopter Engines, explained: “We at Safran Helicopter Engines are truly elated to partner with HAL and India to craft this new turboshaft engine joint venture set to address the Indian market and also future export opportunities.”

Safran’s Ardiden 1H1 engine with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) as later called Shakti, is one of the most successful high-tech military projects which powers India’s all indigenous helicopters, including the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv, ALH Rudra and Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) Prachand.

Here, the scope of tech-collaboration has touched the engine manufacturing process in its entirety, including the two-stage centrifugal compressor, single-stage gas generator turbine, reverse flow combustion chamber, two-stage free power turbine, gear box unit and Dual channel FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control). HAL will further leverage the compact modular design of Shakti 1H1 for IMRH and high-altitude sustained capabilities in extreme conditions.

Ardiden 1H1
Apart from fighter jet engine, the civil space is also witnessing unprecedented demand for aero engine. For example, the LEAP and its predecessor, CFM56, which power over 330 Airbus A320/A320neo and Boeing 737/737 MAX aeroplanes are operational in the Indian sub-continent.

With 1,500 LEAP engines currently on order Safran is also establishing a Maintenance, Repairs and overhaul (MRO) facility. Later, Safran is also planned to build parts.

According to a recent study, the aero-engine market is expected to grow from $54.7 billion in 2022 to $112.6 billion in 2029 at a CAGR of approximately 11%. India is expected to order 500 military aircraft over the years. Broadly, taking account of services requirement, there will be a demand for 2,700 turbine engines for fighter aircraft, including those for replacement and trainers, and over 5,000 helicopter engines of various classes

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 19 Jul 2023 17:02

^Jits would strongly suggest, pls remove the details of this news item and maybe leave the url and headline of it.
It's a comic relief though ...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jul 2023 18:04

Rakesh wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023 20:24 https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 25732?s=20 ---> It is not a done deal yet, but all indications are that Safran Aircraft Engines of France, is confident of powering India's future helicopters and AMCA over the next 15 years. BharatShakti Editor-in-Chief, Nitin Gokhale visited Safran last week.

Transcript of the video interview above ^^^

Military Engines: ‘Safran Wants To Give India Full Sovereignty Capability’
https://stratnewsglobal.com/articles/mi ... apability/
19 July 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jul 2023 19:12

maitya wrote: ↑19 Jul 2023 12:50Very good interview, especially the answers that were provided - also touches a wide variety of topics wrt turbofan dev/mfg initiatives in India.

I fully agree. This is really a pretty good interview, especially with regards to rough timelines and product development. You have explained that very well in your post. But I found this part of the interview equally intriguing --->

Q.You also have a plan for the MRO? What are the timelines that you are looking at for the MRO?

A. The land has been bought and the construction of the building has been signed up. So operations would commence in Hyderabad, you know, in the SEZ zone of Hyderabad, very close to the manufacturing centre. And we have also planned the extension of this MRO shop in order to handle every engine maintenance capability, especially for the M88 for which we expect a lot of orders. And I think it would be very good for India to have this deeper level of maintenance capability already in place in India in order to gain turnaround time. So it’s also an opportunity to build up the capability and the skills necessary to maintain such a high performance engine and high quality engine.

A lot to unravel there in that answer. 36 IAF Rafales with a pair of M88s each, equals to 72 turbofans. For Safran that is not a lot of engines, to set up a MRO shop for the M88 in India. Rafale customers like Qatar, Egypt, Greece also do not have such MRO shops in their country and they have a fleet roughly similar in size to the IAF fleet. Even if you add the 26 Navy Rafales which is 52 turbofans, that still will not justify what Safran is talking about above.

However, with the MRFA order of 114 (which I doubt will reach that number with the Rafale as the chosen MRFA), it would make ample sense for Safran to set up shop. My high end estimate of Rafale as the chosen MRFA will be around 90 aircraft. Thus 90 Rafales + 36 already in service + 26 Navy Rafales = 152 aircraft in total. That is 304 turbofans in total. That is a sizeable and justifiable number for Safran to set up a MRO shop.

I truly believe all the building blocks are being put in place for a large IAF Rafale order to be announced post the 2024 general elections in India. At this stage, it makes zero sense for the IAF to purchase any other aircraft (especially the American offerings i.e. F-15EX or F-21), other than the Rafale. Also the turnaround time mentioned is also vital for high uptimes of the Rafale fleet. No working engine = no aircraft. At that stage, the aircraft is just an expensive paperweight. I have read reports of even the TEDBF using the same turbofan as the AMCA one. The earlier plan was to use the GE F414 in the TEDBF. But too early to call. Lets see what happens.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 20 Jul 2023 00:13

Q is Rakesh, what is the point of inducting anymore Rafales? Just end this circus and go full throttle on lcamkii, Tedbf , amca.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jul 2023 01:59

More MRFA is coming. Air HQ will not budge on that. No one is more qualified to talk about air power than the IAF. Therefore, game out the scenarios and see if the Govt will come out on top, in any one of them.

Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA are in the future. If Air HQ wanted to curtail or stop those programs, they have options available. See the Mk1A. It is available right now. But they are being extremely wary about ordering more, until the MRFA deal is cleared. How do you force a plane onto a service that does not want it? Services have a civilian master is a good lesson for 5th standard civics class. Reality is otherwise. Where exactly is the order for 50 additional Mk1As?

Additional Rafales also opens the door to AMCA and possibly even TEDBF, due to the JV that Safran wants to undertake with GTRE. More Rafales are key to this, as much as we may not like it. Not feasible to have multiple vendors for strategic programs/acquisitions.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 20 Jul 2023 06:08

There is no way way to know if the deal for additional rafales is tied to gtre-safran deal. But if this is the case, we better get all of the knowhow including core and other Crown Jewels of engine tech.

isubodh · Post by **isubodh** » 20 Jul 2023 07:13

Rakesh wrote: ↑20 Jul 2023 01:59 Additional Rafales also opens the door to AMCA and possibly even TEDBF, due to the JV that Safran wants to undertake with GTRE. More Rafales are key to this, as much as we may not like it. Not feasible to have multiple vendors for strategic programs/acquisitions.

Wouldn't that be conflict of interest for Dassault and its sister org Safran. To sell more Rafales or let Safran sell engine tech. After 5-10 years if nothing fruitful comes out of HAL- Safran JV/Collaboration. Even if there is penalty clause Safran can make up in additional Rafales m88 sales. So Safran wins anyway.
Only hedge is GE414 then but requires expensive redesign.
It will become inevitable to buy Rafales as that already 36 + 27? with forces isn't it. I am no expert but learnt on this forum that it's not good idea to have new engine and a new airframe.

Unless we say no more MRFA it won't give Safran the only option to make money in India by success of JV.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 20 Jul 2023 07:44

114 Rafales is going to be 20-30 billion dollars. Someone is going to put the brakes on this thing somewhere.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 21 Jul 2023 18:09

not IAF and if they do not get their 114 MRFA, they will not buy anything else including LCA which is not in the same class.
At the end it has to be a political decision to persuade IAF to buy other planes

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jul 2023 19:57

isubodh wrote: ↑20 Jul 2023 07:13Wouldn't that be conflict of interest for Dassault and its sister org Safran. To sell more Rafales or let Safran sell engine tech. After 5-10 years if nothing fruitful comes out of HAL- Safran JV/Collaboration. Even if there is penalty clause Safran can make up in additional Rafales m88 sales. So Safran wins anyway.

There is a limit to how many Rafales that France can actually sell to India. Military acquisitions in India take decades to fruition and by the time ink is put to paper (on a contract), it is too little...too late. The better option is get investment quickly, rather than wait decades for a contract to reach completion. It took 15 years from MMRCA 1.0 in 2001 to contract signing in 2016 (for 36 Rafales). Safran (and especially RR) require investment of their own programs of which funding is not guaranteed by their respective Govts. RR has the 6th generation Tempest program and Safran has the 6th generation FCAS program.

A better path to program success for Safran, would be to get investment from other sources. India is a safe bet for Safran. Maitya-ji has highlighted - in a number of posts - of the level of technology that Safran will actually transfer. Success in the JV for the AMCA turbofan will have to be determined based on the actual IP (i.e. know why) that is transferred to India. That remains to be seen. But from Safran's perspective, the money comes upfront and a certified low-bypass turbofan comes much later (10 - 15 years down the road).

Safran will use that money to invest in her own next generation turbofan for the FCAS. So the onus lies on India to ensure that the required level of IP is transferred. The situation is same with RR. Funding issue is not something that GE or PW have to deal with. They have sufficient resources for their own next generation turbofan program. But India would prefer not to deal with the US and thus the proposed partnership with Safran of France.

It all comes down to the negotiations between the two (India and France) and what the former can get from the latter. Worst case scenario would be something like the Shakti turboshaft model that is currently being done in India. HAL license produces that turbofan and calls it Shakti. Maitya-ji can correct me if I am wrong. Best case scenario is valuable IP is actually transferred. Reality could be somewhere in between.

We seem to have money for all these grandiose plans (MRFA, MRCBF, JV with Safran, etc), but for inexplicable reasons we find it unpalatable to acquire a couple of used B747s or A340s to be used as engine test beds. We consistently fund other countries military programs, at the expense of our own. We burn money like paper on these acquisitions, but never focus on the building blocks.

isubodh wrote: ↑20 Jul 2023 07:13Only hedge is GE414 then but requires expensive redesign.

As you are already aware, a deal is being negotiated to do license production of the GE F414 in India. I believe it is waiting clearance from the US Congress, but more or less it is a done deal. The Tejas Mk2 will feature this turbofan and after all is said & done, minimum of a 100 will be made in India (for the first batch of Tejas Mk2s). Follow on tranches of the Tejas Mk2 will have the same turbofan and the plan is to put the same turbofan on the first two squadrons of the AMCA as well.

But beyond this, the IAF is insisting on a locally developed turbofan for the remaining AMCA squadrons. They don't want to use the GE F414, including the EPE variant (which is still in development). Reasons are many (technical and geopolitical), but that is the IAF's stand on this issue.

isubodh wrote: ↑20 Jul 2023 07:13It will become inevitable to buy Rafales as that already 36 + 27? with forces isn't it. I am no expert but learnt on this forum that it's not good idea to have new engine and a new airframe.

Unless we say no more MRFA it won't give Safran the only option to make money in India by success of JV.

The IAF will not budge on additional MRFA. Every Air Chief - since 2001 - has been harping on this. The only financially feasible option is to get more Rafales. What would purpose would any other phoren 4th++ generation combat aircraft actually serve?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jul 2023 20:00

RoyG wrote: ↑20 Jul 2023 07:44 114 Rafales is going to be 20-30 billion dollars. Someone is going to put the brakes on this thing somewhere.

Misplaced priorities is where the issue lies. From there, flows everything else (including costs).

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Jul 2023 20:58

NRao wrote: ↑19 Jul 2023 09:04
Pratyush wrote: ↑19 Jul 2023 08:31 More than picking up used machines. We need to learn how to make said machines.

That is more important than just picking up used machines.
It will take India decades to catch up with Germany.

I am talking of making the German standards ubiquitous in India. Not an area JUST dominated be ISRO, HAL, DRDO, etc. Every Indian should talk (which in my interactions they do not) in terms of 1/1000 of an inch (convert that to metrics) which I can do in my garage today!!

Yes, EVERY instrument I have in my garage is capable of dealing with 1/1000th of an inch.

The machines I am alluding to is one of a kind.

A lot more to unpack.

sirji,

ISRO is not keen on any overt or covert connection with the MIL ecosystem

they are terrified that it will affect them internationally and significantly degrade the quality of cooperation and restrict/remove access to other national and international bodies and organizations that they are currently enjoying and I agree with their point of view which has been consistent over a longish period

though sometimes cross pollination does occur, but such rarities are few and far between

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 21 Jul 2023 21:33

maitya wrote: ↑19 Jul 2023 12:50

But do you see even a whimper of this indigenous route being encouraged/sanctioned - NO.

Just imagine, all these co-dev negotiations happening with a parallel-program of indigenous dev of 110KN thrust-class 4th gen turbofan program fully on ...

Oh well ...

Maityaji, India can make nuclear reactors and subamarine but not diesel submarines. Most bureaucrats make money on contracts they oversee. MoD babus oversee defence contracts. So their sole income is when foreign vendors pay them via complex money channels. So babus will not let those projects that cut into their ghoos prosper. They have a million paperwork ways to do that. We indians can send a moon mission (because u can import moon mission) but we will import diesel submarine or jet engines.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jul 2023 17:41

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 39232?s=20 ---> Shri Muzaffaruddin Siddique Zakiruddin Siddique, OS & DG (Aero), DRDO has been appointed as Part-time Official Director (Government Nominee Director) of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 09952?s=20 --->

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jul 2023 17:52

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 56800?s=20 ---> Kaveri Engine to undergo flight testing at GFRI*, Russia in Q-2 2024.

*Gorom Flight Research Institute

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 25 Jul 2023 19:08

Rakesh wrote: ↑25 Jul 2023 17:52 https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 56800?s=20 ---> Kaveri Engine to undergo flight testing at GFRI*, Russia in Q-2 2024.

*Gorom Flight Research Institute

Oh Man, Oh Man, Oh Man ... more details pls (G9 or any other version?).

And where's that lungi-dance emoticon, when you need most ...

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 25 Jul 2023 19:28

Maitya ji, can you please help us understand that if we had already involved Safran for Kaveri earlier and now with even new JV,
why GTRE is approaching russian institutes for flight testing?

Is it bcoz it is comparatively cheap by considerable margin?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jul 2023 20:58

I guess we are hedging or bets, we don't have the technology yet, so we are working with French and Russians. Who backstabs, we go for the other.

If the Americans critically analyze India's defense needs, the Su-30, MiG-29K, Klub, T-90, Brahmos, etc kept the Russian Industry alive while Chinese were poaching on them big time. It is probably the reason Russian MIC survived and today is able to fight.

Atmanirbharta by the Indians will mean Russian MIC will suffer 20 years down the line. If the Americans think strategically, making us self dependent will cause Russian MIC harm and keep another front open for the Chinese.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 25 Jul 2023 21:57

hemant_sai wrote: ↑25 Jul 2023 19:28 Maitya ji, can you please help us understand that if we had already involved Safran for Kaveri earlier and now with even new JV,
why GTRE is approaching russian institutes for flight testing?

Is it bcoz it is comparatively cheap by considerable margin?

Your question is why we are going to GromovFRI etc

I (or anybody outside the program office) wouldn't know, but I guess they offer the quickest schedule - I mean, there have been newspaper reports somewhere, that they are able to provide approx 18mths of lead time, for any test cycle schedule to become available.
Whilst French (or USA) facilities that lead-time maybe 30+ months.

Money/Fee may also be a factor, as well … but no idea wrt those aspects, as well.

Ofcourse, if there were budgets (some few tens of millions only) made available indigenously and a similar platform was there with us, that lead time would be, say, … in weeks (ok maybe 1-2 mths max).
Oh well …

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(It’s ok to ignore rest of the post, as nothing much is in it to read thru and is a waste of time)

But, pls allow me to regale you with a small related “story”, as follows:

Pls note Safran, alongwith other renowned OEMs like GE, P&W, RR, Klimov (even maybe NPO as well) etc, have provided extensive consultancy over 2+ decades of the Kaveri program - and these dates back to mid-90s onwards.
But the depth (and breadth) of their consultative involvement was primarily with Safran (and second most was with GE, obviously).
Many years back, I'd provided a list of foreign military Turbofan OEMS and institutions that were involved in the Kaveri program - it's there in the Kaveri sticky thread as well.

And no, these involvements were not exactly "consultancy" or "deep-auditing" (of the design, parameters, mfg processes etc etc etc) always - many a times, some critical sub-components were directly procured from them, so that the program itself doesn't get halted.
Nothing new - something, that is routine in any decade-spanning (and that too ab initio) R&D programs of such nature. Of course, in the later stages of productioning etc, these technologies are supposed to be mastered and incorporated in the mfg stages.
e.g LCA Radar, LCA Actuators etc etc.

I'll give one such example ...
By now, I presume, atleast everybody in BRF who had gone thru these posts here with some seriousness, would be aware the answer to the following fallacy:
Just how in Kaveri HPT, the TeT of 1455deg C etc is achieved - while DS HPT blades have max metal temp capability of 1050 deg odd C.
Do note, this has nothing to do with Kaveri as such - any turbofan, so let's say in F414, the same fallacy would hold true (metal temp of ~1105-10 deg C vs TeT of 1582deg C).

Answer ofcourse is 2 folds:
1) Internal cooling passageways and external laser-drilled convectional cooling holes - pls refer to many of my posts on this topic in this and the sticky threads
2) TBCs (primarily 8 YSZ single-layer varieties)
But, what is extremely difficult wrt pt 1 above, is being able to manufacture the ceramic cores (that are inserted into the "hollow blade" mold) that implements these internal cooling pathways and structures (e.g turbulators, pin-fins etc).
This in itself is a confluence of atleast 3-4 absolutely cutting-edge manufacturing tech (e.g. 3-D manufacturing, ultra-low tolerance multi-axis CNC machining etc etc).

GTRE/MIDHANI/DMRL et all initially struggled a lot with this - so do you know where from the internal ceramic cores for Kaveri/Kabini came, in those days?
You guessed it right, from Safran - otherwise the whole program would have come to a grinding halt.
(and then, ofcourse there'll be assorted DDDAs (Desi Dork Defence Anal-cysts) and eggsperts claiming around, "Kaveri core HPTs inferior, M82 ones are light years ahead" etc etc etc)

Anyway, so Safran did share these ceramic cores, in a fully-manufactured-part mode ... but refused to part with the, crown-jewel, "know-why" aspects of the mfg details of it.

So, it's very well to take these imported cores, and in a true-blue Chinese ishtyle, measure them up with a measuring tape and make a replica of it (and display it around in various exhibitions, maybe

).
You may have seen these cores in various expos - the ones which may resemble the sole of a Kolhapuri Chappal with innumerable holes and ridges etc on them, lying quite innocuously next to the "centre of attractions" viz the HPT blades.

But trying to cast an actual HPT blade from such "copied" ceramic core, would inevitably end in a disaster, as the myriad of other parametric variables (e.g. S&W tolerance "distribution", just to name one), that are required to accurately calibrate the actual casting parameters (e.g liquid "pouring" rate, cold-plate removal rate etc etc) would never be shared.

Any joint-dev type stunt/deal would do exactly that between – actually ToAsT type deals wouldn’t even reach there.

Fully assembled “parts” like HPT blades would be “provided” along-with another “part” called PM-based HPT disc, and they will then get indigenously joined (read assembled) into a HPT stage.
Do note here, however, the technological complexity of “welding” blades and disc are as cutting-edge as it gets – but I digress.

It's even more difficult to actually master the mass-mfg level of these ceramic cores.
Do note GTRE/DMRL et all were able to quite easily master and demo ceramic core mfg aspects using 3-D mfg tech - which obviously is only good for various demos to assorted baboons, mantris, BWT Reps etc and the like, as not even all the blades of a single turbofan can be mfg with it.

So, they quietly (and quite quickly i.e within half-a-decade or thereabouts), mastered Medium-Hardness Ceramic Die (of 40HRC levels) using P20 steel etc - again good try, but to achieve true-blue volume manufacturing of casted blades, High-Hardness Ceramic Core Die (of 60 HRC levels) manufacturing is required (these 60HRC level Dies are good for ~1500 Ceramic die injections) etc.

Do note at those HRC levels CNC machining etc is, well, let's just use the term "impossible" for a low-tech-industrial-infra based country of ours.
GTRE et all were at it in circa 2011-2013 or thereabouts, not sure where it went from there.

But if you have noticed that timeframe is waaay later than when these Kaveri/Kabini HPT blades were being routinely fabricated and tested in early 2000s.

So how were those blades etc fabricated then ... surely there was no Djinn magic anywhere, that Kabini HPTs were achieving/enduring 1455 deg C TeT regimes in the testbeds back then, without internal (and extn) blade cooling architecture etc.
Answer is, they all came from a supporting partner i.e Safran.

So, it’s quite natural any co-develop etc mambo-jumbo gets done via them only.
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Sincere apologies for the long ramble …

bala · Post by **bala** » 25 Jul 2023 22:20

India's visit to Gorom Flight Research Institute is because our babus are averse to funding anything unproven. It happened quite similarly with ISRO. The Vikas engine was created from experience/memory of the hired ISRO engineers/scientists working for French space agency in the 80s/90s. They had to test the rocket engine at the French test site. Once it worked on the testbed, then sanction was provided to launch for ISRO. Over time ISRO was able to build their own test site for liquid engine rockets at Mahendragiri, TN.

I have a feeling that once kaveri is proven to work on some aircraft, Babus will open the purse strings and allow a multi-engined transport aircraft to be modified for test purposes. Remember the Indian babus are/were schooled in the Britshit system of ICS now renamed as IAS.

nash · Post by **nash** » 25 Jul 2023 22:35

https://alphadefense.in/unleashing-the- ... of-kaveri/

Undeterred by this challenge, the GTRE persisted with its commitment to advancing indigenous jet engine technology. Our Team at Alpha Defense has accessed Exclusive details that research establishment presented an innovative proposal for Indigenous Flying Test Beds to the Indian government. This groundbreaking proposition entails converting two Su-30MKI fighter jets into flying test beds for future indigenous engines. The twin-engine configuration of the Su-30MKI provides a unique advantage, as one engine will be imported, while the other will be an indigenous engine. Although, this will be done once the incident free Engine AMT is completed for 100hrs. This parallel approach not only enables rigorous testing and evaluation but also facilitates the certification of engine components while simultaneously undergoing flight evaluations. The other plan requires a Mig29 fighter as a subsonic test bed to test the engine. GTRE has already completed a feasibility test and now just requires a nod from government of India.

Su-30MKI for Supersonic Flight Testing and Mig-29 for subsonic.
Are these viable options for FTB ? and how real this time to get FTB and HATF to develop aero-engines?

astal · Post by **astal** » 25 Jul 2023 23:06

Why not use Sukhoi 30 MKI for both subsonic and supersonic testing?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 25 Jul 2023 23:22

Maitya,

High hardness cores are a done deal. I think it was even stated so in some tech focus IIRC.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 26 Jul 2023 08:32

Rakesh wrote: ↑25 Jul 2023 17:52Gorom Flight Research Institute

Gromov (not "Gorom").

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Aug 2023 20:29

CAG criticises Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for delay and cost overruns in development of jet engines
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/cag-cri ... et-engines
18 August 2023

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 19 Aug 2023 23:04

Annual humour report!

basant · Post by **basant** » 20 Aug 2023 01:21

I respectfully disagree. CAG has a very specific task -- to evaluate projects based on proposals and approvals. So if an agency claims to develop a product in a particular timeframe and a budget, receives funds and does not deliver according to the set parameters, it is the responsibility of CAG to note that. However, it would up to the government and Parliament to peruse the report and inspect the reasons for the failures to meet the target..., CAG is neither competent nor empowered to do that.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Aug 2023 07:03

basant wrote: ↑20 Aug 2023 01:21 Snip ....

However, it would up to the government and Parliament to peruse the report and inspect the reasons for the failures to meet the target..., CAG is neither competent nor empowered to do that.

Nor are the parliament or the government for that matter.

Much of the advance technology is dependent on materials getting developed with specific capacity and in very specific shapes.

No one 8n government is going to be able to truly acess the challenges associated with those.