Indian Army Aviation

[Rakesh]

Unlikely sanction ever came for this program...why fund, when you have Apache itself?

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd plans to produce Apache-like military helicopter in India
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 426550.cms
02 Mar 2020

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/sandhyabelay/status ... 85024?s=20 ---> Army to place follow up orders for Apache heavy attack helicopters. The Indian Army is set to receive the initial batch of six AH-64E Apache attack helicopters by February 2024. The delivery of the remaining helicopters is expected to be completed within three months thereafter.

https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 33376?s=20 ---> 39 nahi hai, 60 ka projection hai. Boeing's Presentation to RM Rajnath Singh.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/168 ... 70560?s=20 ---> Indian Army seeks lease of 20 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters for a period of 5 years. A profound commentary on the paralysing delays in the induction of new light helicopters.

[Rakesh]

Delays Endless, Now Indian Army Wants To LEASE Light Helicopters
https://www.livefistdefence.com/delays- ... licopters/
19 July 2023

While the LUH, despite rapid strides towards a demonstrable operational capability at high altitudes including multiple operational demonstrations in Ladakh, has managed to only land orders for a dozen airframes, six each for the Army and IAF...

[Pratyush]

Is there any procurement that will not be turned into a joke?

The requirement is for nearly 1000 choppers.

https://www.mod.gov.in/sites/default/fi ... 281%29.pdf

The LUH is an indigenously designed and developed three-ton class, single engine multipurpose utility helicopter with unique features of high manoeuvrability. Initially, this factory will produce around 30 helicopters per year and can be enhanced to 60 and then 90 per year in a phased

[Manish_P]

Delays Endless, Now Indian Army Wants To LEASE Light Helicopters
https://www.livefistdefence.com/delays- ... licopters/
19 July 2023

While the LUH, despite rapid strides towards a demonstrable operational capability at high altitudes including multiple operational demonstrations in Ladakh, has managed to only land orders for a dozen airframes, six each for the Army and IAF...

I think recently there are some changes made to these forums.. some icons seem to have changed..

I really feel there should be a face-palm smiley

[Rakesh]

I really feel there should be a face-palm smiley

Google it Saar, like below...

P.S. Face palm smiley is directed at the Army and not at you!

[Manish_P]

I meant in the inbuilt editor but yes I suppose I can stop being lazy and take the effort to include an external gif.

I have used the famous Jean-Luc Picard one on occasions before..

I think i will need a banging-head-on-wall one as well

[basant]

1000 helos? Use that number to import and order little later when indigenous product is available. Why aren't LUH already in production? GoI already took delivery earlier and paid later, so money isn't the reason.

[Cybaru]

The good news is that its election year! This, if god willing, will get punted to another few years, followed by evals and tendering process. Perfectly designed for the Indian babu if he so wishes to punt this. ,

[Cybaru]

Delays Endless, Now Indian Army Wants To LEASE Light Helicopters
https://www.livefistdefence.com/delays- ... licopters/
19 July 2023

While the LUH, despite rapid strides towards a demonstrable operational capability at high altitudes including multiple operational demonstrations in Ladakh, has managed to only land orders for a dozen airframes, six each for the Army and IAF...

They can use 20 dhruvs till LUH shows up... There is no reason to lease anything.

[Pratyush]

I am early awating a RFI from the army for a light chopper.

It will be 4 ton helo. Neatly bysecting the gap between the LUH and ALH.

They will make the case for urgent imports. As HAL doesn't have a product in the portfolio.

[nachiket]

What rankles me about all these stories about mind-boggling delays in acquiring basic capability is the absolute inabilty of our defense journalists in extracting the full story about anything. Look at this story from LiveFist

While it is early to judge the army’s intentions, given the litany of Indian RFIs that have ended up being worth less than the paper they’re printed on, it is clear that the army feels pushed into a corner by difficult to explain delays in the procurement of such a basic capability.
....
While the LUH, despite rapid strides towards a demonstrable operational capability at high altitudes including multiple operational demonstrations in Ladakh, has managed to only land orders for a dozen airframes, six each for the army and IAF

So why exactly is that the case? Nobody really knows. Are we to understand that even a guy like Shiv Aroor does not have one decent source anywhere in the defence establishment who will actually give him the real story about the "why" part? I am not even blaming him since others are usually even worse and straight up lie about anything they don't know. But we see this repeated across the board - LUH, LCH, P75I, NAMICA, ATAGS and so on. Everyone reports on how multiple programs are stuck for indeterminate reasons but you will rarely if ever find a well-investigated story which finds out "why" without making stuff up.

We can speculate about armed forces corruption and/or bureaucratic lethargy and government apathy all we want but we can't really figure out who to blame for it if the journalists don't do their jobs and tell us who exactly screwed things up. I can understand being tight lipped about strategic programs like ballistic missiles and nuclear submarines, but this is a freaking unarmed light helicopter for god's sake. There must be someone somewhere willing to spill the beans. We seem to be living in a bizarro world where our scientists merrily leak highly classified state secrets about the missile program to ISI catfish accounts on the internet but there isn't anyone who is willing to say out loud why there are no LUH orders.

[Manish_P]

..

We can speculate about armed forces corruption and/or bureaucratic lethargy and government apathy all we want but we can't really figure out who to blame for it if the journalists don't do their jobs and tell us who exactly screwed things up. I can understand being tight lipped about strategic programs like ballistic missiles and nuclear submarines, but this is a freaking unarmed light helicopter for god's sake. There must be someone somewhere willing to spill the beans. We seem to be living in a bizarro world where our scientists merrily leak highly classified state secrets about the missile program to ISI catfish accounts on the internet but there isn't anyone who is willing to say out loud why there are no LUH orders.

If only we had attractive female defense journos.. 'she' need not even be real

[Aditya_V]

The answer is simple, Media houses are part of the import mafia and work towards an agenda

[souravB]

Rumor is Army wants autopilot on LUH thus delaying the order.

[Pratyush]

It's not a rumour.

It's a requirement added at the last minute by the army.

As is their custom.

[Kartik]

This is clearly a case of changing goal posts. Such a blatantly obvious move.

[sanjayc]

Generals wait till the product is completed and in production for delivery. Then they come up with a new demand for changes to the product that will delay the orders by months or years. Very clever.

[RoyG]

Trick is to make sure we have a developed product so we don’t fall too behind and that in a time of urgent need we can manufacture. But postpone manufacture indefinitely so long as there is money to be made from imports. IMO, window for this corrupt operation is closing for major platforms for all services.

[Rakesh]

Just like stated in the MRFA thread ---> How do you push an aircraft (or any military platform) onto a service that does not want it in the first place?

In the absence of the services, who is going to do this? Rajnath Singh? Narendra Modi? If the services is not invested in the idea of Self Reliance (i.e. Atmanirbhar Bharat) then how can the idea take hold?

* ATAGS vs ATHOS
* Arjun vs T-90
* LUH vs Ka-226
* LCH vs Apache

Do one thing properly ---> either import or either invest in self reliance. If the Army is not going to buy the above in the required numbers, then let them import the platforms that are needed. Why waste everyone's time?

[nachiket]

This is clearly a case of changing goal posts. Such a blatantly obvious move.

Even if it is, the MoD would be well within its rights to tell them that the autopilot is being worked on and can be retrofitted later, so it should not delay orders. Moreover any attempt to use this as a reason to purchase/lease foreign helicopters would be DoA. But apparently no one there has the balls or the brains to say this or perhaps they salivate at the prospect of kickbacks from such a deal. Again, we will never know which reasons if any are actually true since the media never bothers to actually find out.

[nachiket]

Do one thing properly ---> either import or either invest in self reliance. If the Army is not going to buy the above in the required numbers, then let them import the platforms that are needed. Why waste everyone's time?

Hard disagree. If a locally developed and manufactured alternative exists for any system, the armed forces have to be told in no uncertain terms that they can either get that and work with the devs to improve it in tranches (if they want improvements) or they get nothing at all. And yes it is the job of RNS and Modi to make that happen. They are the ones always talking about Atmanirbharta not the armed forces.

[Rakesh]

Nachiket, see what is happening now. Neither will the Army allow for the induction of the locally developed platform and the Govt will not budge on importing a phoren platform. Someone has to blink first. It should be the Army who has to blink, but they are not willing to.

As a result, there is a capability gap. The only time I hear the Army (or her sister services) talk about self reliance is during Army/Navy/Air Force Day, at press meets and during tweeting. Beyond the lip service, nothing is moving. Army HQ got time to write RFIs for leasing light helicopters from foreign vendors, but no time to invest in the LUH program.

RNS is reliant on the Army's input. If he tries to push a platform down the Army's throat, the Army will push back with GSQRs that will go right above RNS' head. The problem lies in RNS' inability to understand these GSQRs. What professional experience does RNS have to sit across the table with pilots from the Army Aviation Corps and discuss about light helicopter duties in the Siachen and other regions, that the Army services?

You raised a good point about autopilot. Is RNS aware whether HAL Cheetah has autopilot or not? If not, then why does Army need autopilot on LUH? Can that capability not be added on later onto the LUH?

NaMo is no different either. They are politicians and not military personnel. This is not their forte. Thus the services roll their dice.

[sanjayc]

Strange to find Generals determined to thwart the rise of India as a designer and developer of its own weapons. This is a huge capability that earns a lot of respect in the world, as such a country can tilt balance of power in any part of the world by suppling weapons to any one side. Import armies are laughed at by others. So Generals trying to keep Indian army boxed in as import army need to be packed up and sent home.

[nachiket]

RNS is reliant on the Army's input. If he tries to push a platform down the Army's throat, the Army will push back with GSQRs that will go right above RNS' head. The problem lies in RNS' inability to understand these GSQRs. What professional experience does RNS have to sit across the table with pilots from the Army Aviation Corps and discuss about light helicopter duties in the Siachen and other regions, that the Army services?

...

NaMo is no different either. They are politicians and not military personnel. This is not their forte. Thus the services roll their dice.

And therein lies the rub. RNS is being taken for a ride and he does not have the wits to understand it. And if NaMo was paying enough attention to this he would realize that and either replace him with someone who is smarter or if that is not possible, then engage some advisors who can help him understand. At any other time waiting to see who blinks first might work but not when we have the Chinese knocking on our doors backed by a military capacity enhancement the likes of which hasn't been seen in a long time.

At the end of the day the Generals serve at the pleasure of the civilian government and it is the PM's job to remind them of that.

[nachiket]

Also, remember that it isn't always the Generals responsible for this kind of nonsense. It wasn't the IAF which decided that the funds for the Tejas Mk2 would not get dispersed until the GE engine deal was done. That was some either some nincompoop or malicious actor inside the MoD. RNS allowed that too. So it is not just the Generals who are taking him for a ride.

[Rakesh]

You need a technocrat at the helm of the MoD. You need someone who is fully invested in the idea of self reliance and is willing to tell the senior military leadership to get on board OR resign and leave.

When Admiral Karambir Singh thought he could have it all (affordability wise i.e. EMALS aircraft carrier @ 65K, 57 MRCBF, six Project 75I SSKs, six Project 75A SSNs, etc), it was General Bipin Rawat to had to bring him back to reality. General Rawat had a similar episode with Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria who was insistent on 114 MRFA. His successor - the current Air Chief - is no different either. "114-MRFA-is-important-for-full-spectrum-of-operations" is the logic that is doled out at Air HQ.

When is the last time RNS or NaMo asked senior military leaders about the status of the following programs;

*ATAGS
*LUH
*LCH
*50 additional Tejas Mk1As

Where is the order book? What is the induction schedule? What is the cost involved? Etc.

Low hanging fruit, but the services got time to write RFIs for leasing platforms. There is nothing like that new phoren smell, after all!!! When the balloon goes up and we are short of the required capability, then the services will turn around and say, "...But we wrote a RFI...."

P.S. You know the real irony in this entire tamasha? Govt is in pre-election mode. By the end of the year, India will head to the polls again. If the Govt wants to win resoundingly (especially in the south), give HAL a sizeable order book. What is the opposition really going to say then? "The Govt put the armed forces in danger by inducting sub-standard platforms from HAL?" That will backfire on the opposition spectacularly.

[nachiket]

I agree and that's why I feel it is no use blaming either the Generals or Baboos beyond a point. The blame has to fall on the people who have the power to do something about it but don't. But this discussion is getting too political now and we may have to move to strat forum.

[Aldonkar]

Generals wait till the product is completed and in production for delivery. Then they come up with a new demand for changes to the product that will delay the orders by months or years. Very clever.

The GOI, ie. the Defence Minister, should be strong enough to overrule any such post release requirement. Save it for the next version.

[Aldonkar]

I agree and that's why I feel it is no use blaming either the Generals or Baboos beyond a point. The blame has to fall on the people who have the power to do something about it but don't. But this discussion is getting too political now and we may have to move to strat forum.

The Defence Minister should be strong enough to force the purchase without changes leaving the autopilot for a future upgrade of next version. The PM and Cabinet (especially the Minister of Finance) should back him.

The GOI should introduce rules that state what proportion of the budget can be spent on imported weapons. This should apply to all three services. The proportion that is domestic should be gradually increased until the Indian MIC is able to compete. This may take a decade or two, but look what ISRO did when blocked by foreign sources.

By the way, I am not an Indian citizen, in fact never lived in India, but increasingly on my holidays in Europe I bump into Indian military officers (mostly retired). The last were a group of six (three men and their wives), one of whom was a general. This was at Bled Castle in Slovenia - not a frequent stop on the tourist map.

[RoyG]

Nachiket, see what is happening now. Neither will the Army allow for the induction of the locally developed platform and the Govt will not budge on importing a phoren platform. Someone has to blink first. It should be the Army who has to blink, but they are not willing to.

As a result, there is a capability gap. The only time I hear the Army (or her sister services) talk about self reliance is during Army/Navy/Air Force Day, at press meets and during tweeting. Beyond the lip service, nothing is moving. Army HQ got time to write RFIs for leasing light helicopters from foreign vendors, but no time to invest in the LUH program.

RNS is reliant on the Army's input. If he tries to push a platform down the Army's throat, the Army will push back with GSQRs that will go right above RNS' head. The problem lies in RNS' inability to understand these GSQRs. What professional experience does RNS have to sit across the table with pilots from the Army Aviation Corps and discuss about light helicopter duties in the Siachen and other regions, that the Army services?

You raised a good point about autopilot. Is RNS aware whether HAL Cheetah has autopilot or not? If not, then why does Army need autopilot on LUH? Can that capability not be added on later onto the LUH?

NaMo is no different either. They are politicians and not military personnel. This is not their forte. Thus the services roll their dice.

I posted about this issue previously. We have politicians with no domain expertise and therefore over reliant on bureaucratic input. It just so happens that the same bureaucrats are the ones who are running this corrupt enterprise.

However, I do think that there are enough directives from the top which will bring about big change eventually. With private partners and overall atmanirbhar mission we are already seeing some positive results. It’s very challenging but I think by 2030 all the major platforms for all the services should be stabilized.

[basant]

It would be desirable to have leaders with background, but is not essential. Politicians are very smart and, if required, can always get advice from experts who mean well. Issues like auto-pilot are trivial in the larger picture as even HAL officers could inform the leadership about it and show parallels in other militaries. The production, for example, can begin and when the auto-pilot is ready, it can be ported. This is so if it is 'really required'. In any case, as pointed out by Sh Kiran Raghuraman recently, in the class of LUH the auto-pilot is of limited capability as it is not fully FBW (I can't find that tweet now), and such capability is not present in its class of helicopters. The issue of not ordering is something that is a blot on both the Services and the GoI, IMHO. One can speculate on the reasons but I doubt if we will discover any honorable causes.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/ajaishukla/status/1 ... 63962?s=20 ---> With 22 Apache AH-64E helicopters already delivered to the IAF, Boeing has begun executing an order for six Apaches for the Indian Army. Can someone tell me: What tactical or operational objectives are going to be served by six Apaches?

Boeing starts building Apache attack helicopters for Indian Army
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/08/boei ... ttack.html
17 Aug 2023

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/169 ... 92742?s=20 ---> The Indian Army’s first AH-64E Apache takes shape. The first fuselage (built by the Tata Boeing JV in Hyderabad) seen here at Mesa, Arizona where it will be finished. The 6 on order are to be delivered to the Indian Army in 2024.

[Rakesh]

Production of Apaches begins, delivery to Army from 2024
https://www.defencenews.in/2023/10/prod ... from-2024/
16 October 2023

[Atmavik]

^^ apparently IAF wants 11 additional Apaches.

[Rakesh]

^^ apparently IAF wants 11 additional Apaches.

Indeed.

https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1713 ... 50495?s=20 ---> IA has been pushing a case for 11 more Apaches and preliminary discussions are on with Boeing. Chief of Defence Staff General Anil Chauhan has ordered another study on the use of armoured helicopters by the armed forces progress on additional Apaches would be based on the outcome.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AviationWall/status/17127 ... 11521?s=20 ---> "As the sun rises, we hold steadfast in our belief that our very own HAL shall ascend, spreading its wings to soar as a remarkable global force in the aviation industry. With unwavering determination, we envision a future where HAL's brilliance illuminates the skies, inspiring awe and admiration as it pioneers breakthroughs, sets new standards, and leaves an indelible mark on the world. Together, let us embrace the dawn of limitless possibilities, as HAL takes flight and fulfills its destiny as a true beacon of excellence and innovation."

Photo @aviationwall

[Rakesh]

Army gears up to induct first lot of Apache attack helicopters from February 2024 onwards
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 453876.ece
25 Oct 2023

“The first Apache attack helicopter is scheduled to be delivered in February 2024. As part of the deal, six pilots and 24 technicians were trained by Boeing in the U.S. Delivery of all six Apaches would be completed by April 2024,” a defence source said. The DAC is expected to meet next week when the case for the 156 LCH will be taken up for consideration, two sources independently stated.

The Cabinet Committee had given sanction for the procurement of 39 AH-64 Apache attack helicopters from the U.S. Following this, the IAF had inducted 22 Apaches under a deal signed in September 2015 following which the government has decided any further Apache procurements would go to the Army. In line with this, India signed a deal for six more Apaches, for the Army, at a cost of around $800 mn in February 2020. There is a slight delay in deliveries of the Apaches due to the COVID pandemic.

While the Army has been pushing the case for 11 more Apaches, the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) recently ordered a study on the number of armoured helicopters required which is expected to commence end-November or early-December. So, officials said, the call on additional Apaches would be taken once the study was complete. The Army currently operates 75 Rudra, the armed version of the Advanced Light Helicopter.