Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

[Manish_P]

...
I am going to start a thread on decoding babudom. BRF desperately needs it. This class and the servility psychology it infects Indians with needs to be eradicated from the country forever. It will be critical to know the setup and players in sabotaging Indias rise, especially in defence. Decades of hard work by scientists evaporate just like that.

Would be very interesting to see the internal networks and the inner workings.

Just FYI, there is an existing thread specifically for Defence - MoD: Defence Procurement Policies Issues and Discussions - viewtopic.php?t=7603

There might be a small overlap or perhaps the above thread can be expanded in scope and moved to the Strategic forum?

[Pratyush]

All this discussion about the babudome is fine.

But unless the services come up with specific force requirements that will meet the future strategic requirements.

No one is going to move their behind to achieve those force goals.

The attitude of the IAF is the most shocking for me.

They think that 114 imported fighters are going to help them deal with a PLAF that will have developed the ability to bring it's entire force to bear against it by 2045.

Not to mention a ground based IADS coupled with multiple AEWs.

Tactically, the PRC forces can create a very efficient kill zone over Tibet theatre for the IAF.

Dismantling the IADS over Tibet in the face of full force of PLAF will require both quality and quantity.

[RoyG]

All this discussion about the babudome is fine.

But unless the services come up with specific force requirements that will meet the future strategic requirements.

No one is going to move their behind to achieve those force goals.

The attitude of the IAF is the most shocking for me.

They think that 114 imported fighters are going to help them deal with a PLAF that will have developed the ability to bring it's entire force to bear against it by 2045.

Not to mention a ground based IADS coupled with multiple AEWs.

Tactically, the PRC forces can create a very efficient kill zone over Tibet theatre for the IAF.

Dismantling the IADS over Tibet in the face of full force of PLAF will require both quality and quantity.

Pratyush,

You didn’t read my post properly. It’s an architecture led by babus who set the agenda from the very beginning and ensure the service chiefs fall in line.

[RoyG]

...
I am going to start a thread on decoding babudom. BRF desperately needs it. This class and the servility psychology it infects Indians with needs to be eradicated from the country forever. It will be critical to know the setup and players in sabotaging Indias rise, especially in defence. Decades of hard work by scientists evaporate just like that.

Would be very interesting to see the internal networks and the inner workings.

Just FYI, there is an existing thread specifically for Defence - MoD: Defence Procurement Policies Issues and Discussions - viewtopic.php?t=7603

There might be a small overlap or perhaps the above thread can be expanded in scope and moved to the Strategic forum?

Manish,

Thanks for the find. We can start with this but I’m afraid the rot is far more pervasive.

[Pratyush]

RoyG,

Surely the babudome cannot stop the services from articulating to force requirements in order to achieve victory on a future battlefield.

That has to be a domain of the services.

[basant]

^^^
Precisely. It is the duty of the political leadership to lead the bureaucracy to attain its policy objectives. Blaming them after so many years is pointless. We should always remember that, now unimaginable, entire fundamental policies of the Indian industry and economy was changed by a small group of brilliant and focused bureaucrats under the political leadership that did not even enjoy majority in 1991. Issues with Tejas Mk2 production, recent updates on Arjun in its everlasting saga, FRCV (4 men, auto loader, 55 tons), years of resistance of IN over NUH all point to the leadership failure, be it Services or the Civilian, and have little to do with bureaucrats. They don't write specs, they don't qualify user trials, they don't create AoN, etc..., the places where the real delay happens when products reach maturity. I am not saying bureaucrats are all saints, but they are not required at all for us to reach this kind of quagmire and they are little empowered to fix it. If they are fundamentally corrupt and all powerful, we would actually see a lot of imports 'cos that is where the money is. You can block the import chain, but you cannot make the services select indigenous products (like one can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink ). An active CDS or Service Chiefs can easily aid in the discovery and fixing of policy loopholes. To me, it looks like there is also mutual distrust among all parties which seems to be detrimental to the national cause.

[Prem Kumar]

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/cent ... -102452087

Lets unpack this again. Why was this conditional clause about GE engines included in the first place? Tejas-Mk2 can fly whether or not we had a licensed manufacturing in India. The plane just needs a damn engine - it doesn't matter where it gets made.

As others had pointed out earlier, was this unnecessary clause included to sabotage the timelines?

Also, the article says that it will take 5-6 years for the prototypes to rollout. Meanwhile, read this from July 2023

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 94817.html

On the eve of historic India-US F-414 jet engine deal, both Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) have geared up to produce Tejas Mark II fighter by 2027-28 with the former ready to roll out the GE-414 powered prototype by 2024 end.

The HT article says that the prototype rollout is in late 2024 & in 4-5 years time, they are ready to mass-produce!

So, what gives? How can 2 reports give such wildly conflicting timelines? Chances are one or both of them are clueless/lying

[basant]

Time's article heading and content are at odds. Someone who was totally disinterested wrote it, if it was not done on purpose.

[SSridhar]

How can 2 reports give such wildly conflicting timelines? Chances are one or both of them are clueless/lying

My understanding is as follows:

First prototype planned to be rolled out by December 2023. First flight by December 2024. 4 prototypes would be built and all tests would be completed by December 2027 (though TimesNow talks of 6 prototypes). During Aero India 2023 (Feb. 2023), the DRDO chief said that the Tejas MK-2 will be ready for induction by 2028.

[Manish_P]

Would be very interesting to see the internal networks and the inner workings.

Just FYI, there is an existing thread specifically for Defence - MoD: Defence Procurement Policies Issues and Discussions - viewtopic.php?t=7603

There might be a small overlap or perhaps the above thread can be expanded in scope and moved to the Strategic forum?

Manish,

Thanks for the find. We can start with this but I’m afraid the rot is far more pervasive.

RoyG ji, in that case request you to start the new thread in the Strategy forums (with Mod permission, of course).

And posts relevant specifically to the defense sector you can also cross-post in the Military forum (under the thread mentioned above). My humble suggestion onlee..

[Rakesh]

Lets unpack this again. Why was this conditional clause about GE engines included in the first place? Tejas-Mk2 can fly whether or not we had a licensed manufacturing in India.

You will never get a straight answer to that question. In the absence of this, don't even bother asking.

The plane just needs a damn engine - it doesn't matter where it gets made.

Aiyoo! Please Saar, don't wish that nightmare on the Mk2. Selecting another turbofan at this stage will only delay the program further.

GE F414 is what ADA selected and GE F414 is what the Tejas Mk2 must fly with.

As others had pointed out earlier, was this unnecessary clause included to sabotage the timelines?

Don't get caught up over the timelines. It will be delayed, like every other military project in India, but it will come. Once the turbofan deal was announced, it will be hard pressed to turn that wheel back. The next hurdle that is left is clearance from the US Congress. If they block the deal, it will undo a lot of the geopolitical bonhomie between the two nations. The odds of that happening are really very slim.

A lot is riding on the GE F414 deal. And the main platform for this American turbofan is not TEDBF, not AMCA but the Tejas Mk2. The entire assembly deal is only for the Tejas Mk2 order. If this deal fails, everything else will fall. The deal is too important to NOT fail. Post Modi's visit to the US in June 2023 and the subsequent announcement of the GE F414 assembly in India, the Mk2 will come.

Also, the article says that it will take 5-6 years for the prototypes to rollout. Meanwhile, read this from July 2023

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 94817.html

On the eve of historic India-US F-414 jet engine deal, both Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) have geared up to produce Tejas Mark II fighter by 2027-28 with the former ready to roll out the GE-414 powered prototype by 2024 end.

The HT article says that the prototype rollout is in late 2024 & in 4-5 years time, they are ready to mass-produce!

So, what gives? How can 2 reports give such wildly conflicting timelines? Chances are one or both of them are clueless/lying

Regardless of the reason (clueless, lying, etc) and all the agendas being pushed around, if the Tejas Mk2 is cancelled and all energies are focused towards the AMCA program...that will play right into the hands of the import lobby. AMCA is so far along in the future, that the numbers will dip dangerously low in the next decade and the AMCA will not be ready by then. By the end of this decade itself, the low strength will be alarming. And when the numbers start dipping down, then Air HQ will acquire more phoren fighters under emergency purchase clauses. And this is exactly what will happen if the Tejas Mk2 program is cancelled (in favour of the AMCA).

How many Mk1As will Air HQ honestly induct to make up the shortfall? Air HQ will not allow the GOI to force it, to replace the MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and Jaguar fleets with an all Mk1A fleet. That is not going to happen. If 114 MRFA is unpalatable, imagine the headache of 200+ foreign fighters. And it could end up a split purchase (for geopolitical reasons, among other reasons). We went through this tamasha with the Marut program. Let us not repeat it with the Tejas. The Tejas Mk2 must and will come. The deal between US and India to license produce the GE F414 turbofan in India has provided that guarantee.

Post clearance of the F414 deal in the US Congress, the MRFA deal will be announced and it will be an assembly factory. And that will happen post the 2024 general elections. It is for that reason why Rafale M was not mentioned in the final press communique between Modi and Macron, when the former visited France in July 2023. The only ambiguity will be how many MRFA will be acquired for the IAF. My estimate is anywhere between 72 to 90 Rafales. This deal is equally crucial for the AMCA program. But the MRFA deal will also not solve the squadron shortage problem. It was never going to anyway.

[Rakesh]

This is what will happen if you cancel the Tejas Mk2 program. This is exactly what must be avoided.

This is from Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd). And this train of thought (program delayed, so let's import the next greatest thing) has a strong hold at Air HQ. When OEMs need to push their wares in India, they have willing bodies to do their bidding.

China Plans 500 J-20 Stealth Jets By 2035-38, Should India Consider Su-75 Checkmate Till AMCA Arrives
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/china-pla ... -consider/
06 Aug 2023

Su-75 is in the same boat as the AMCA i.e. both are mockups. When you fund Su-75, guess which program will get poorly funded?

"Bhat phor you need Tejas Mk2 / AMCA, bhen you have Su-75 Checkmate?"

There is nothing like that new phoren smell. It is mind-blowing!!

[Manish_P]

This is what will happen if you cancel the Tejas Mk2 program. This is exactly what must be avoided.

This is from Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd). And this train of thought (program delayed, so let's import the next greatest thing) has a strong hold at Air HQ. When OEMs need to push their wares in India, they have willing bodies to do their bidding.

China Plans 500 J-20 Stealth Jets By 2035-38, Should India Consider Su-75 Checkmate Till AMCA Arrives
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/china-pla ... -consider/
06 Aug 2023
...

Rakesh sir, i know you didn't intend it to sound so, but the framing of the sentence make it seem as though it is the Rtd AM Anil Chopra who is advocating to import.... (or perhaps it is just me who felt so)

The AM (Rtd) is very clear when he states -

India already has a huge Russian aircraft basket with nearly 65% of the IAF. India needs to diversify. Russian aircraft are cheap initially, but the life cycle costs are much higher in the long term. Russian fleet serviceability is invariably lower because of complex spare supply procedures and timelines.

The Su-57 program has moved very slowly for various technology issues. With limited flying, the teething problems may take longer to be seen. The sanctions on semiconductor supply would impact Russian avionics and weapons. For all these reasons, the Su-57 option may not be good.

The Su-75, though smaller, is still some distance away. Its first flight timelines may be close to AMCA. But Russia does have the advantage of its own engine and stealth technologies, and the aircraft would be ahead of AMCA. The aircraft would not be as cheap as predicted. Joining such a program would sound like a death knell for AMCA. Investing the same amount in AMCA would give better returns and improve indigenous capabilities.

Buying a few Su-35S is also a bad idea because value addition would be low, and another fleet would have been created. The already-acquired Rafale would be a better bet. The F-35 is not on offer.

India is stuck between the jaws of a vice. Timelines and numbers are critical for IAF. So the best option is to put all our nations’ energies into the AMCA. Find a partner for critical technologies like aero-engine, stealth, and high-end avionics. Pay for it.

Meanwhile, push indigenous individual technology development. Set up a task force. Get the private sector in at an early stage. Release the program from bureaucrats and hand it over to high salaried technocrat program manager through a special purpose vehicle. Monitor the program at the highest levels.

There is no other way to become a great power.

[Rakesh]

What he saying (in the bolded part above, second para) is a utopian wish list. Even he knows that is not going to happen. Babus never give up control.

In the quote that is highlighted above, he also states this...

The Su-75, though smaller, is still some distance away. Its first flight timelines may be close to AMCA. But Russia does have the advantage of its own engine and stealth technologies, and the aircraft would be ahead of AMCA.

Su-75 will be ahead of AMCA? Russia has stealth technologies? What are the basis of these claims? This is called playing the dual role of Good Cop-Bad Cop. Send out feelers and see what the response is. Keep legs in two different camps and then jump ship to one side (when it favours you). When AMCA has developmental/technological challenges, the Su-75 is always there as a backup. This is how the bokwas of "emergency imports" starts.

How many retired Generals from the USAF will write something like this ---> "Due to the perceived delays in the NGAD program, the US Govt must look into acquiring FCAS or Tempest platforms from Europe." That General will be ostracized from the USAF fraternity. But this is considered norm in the IAF?

If the development of the Tejas Mk2 is dropped, Air HQ will import even more foreign fighters than the planned 114 MRFA.

I-must-have-5th-generation-fighters-because-my-enemies-have-them is a sure fire recipe for disaster, in the development of local programs. Panic purchases have always led to disasters (capability wise and logistical) for the IAF. To counter the 40+ F-16A/B purchase from the PAF in the early 1980s, Air HQ purchased not ONE, not TWO...but THREE different fighter platforms and none in sufficient numbers to replace aging platforms.

* First purchase was the MiG-23MF which turned out to be less than stellar.
* Then came the Mirage 2000H/TH and a local assembly assembly factory was planned. This never materialized because the Russians swooped in with the MiG-29 offer. What was a 40 + 150 assembly offer, ended up with only ~60 airframes being acquired.
* When the Mirage 2000 assembly deal fell through, the IAF acquired three squadrons of MiG-29s.

One out of the three has long been retired, the other is getting a second life extension and the third is soldiering on post her (very expensive) upgrade. Do we really want a repetition of the above?

In the near future, Pakistan will likely get the J-31. Then Air HQ will panic and acquire Su-75. Pakistan is also joining Turkey's 5th generation Kaan program. Then the Su-75 will be subpar and then Air HQ will clamour for F-35. Finally when AMCA comes on board, Air HQ will whine about very thin windscreen, poor endurance, not stealthy enough, those rivets appear to be from some jugaad store in Mumbai's Chor Bazaar, etc...the list will be endless. So will acquire just a few squadrons, just so that Air HQ can wear the badge of Atmanirbhar Bharat. Su-75 and F-35 Ki Jai Ho!

[Rakesh]

If any of us is ever fortunate to personally meet the boat commander of INS Arihant (or any of her sister ships), ask them this one question;

* Do you feel this vessel achieves the desired parameters of an assured second strike capability?

That boat commander will assuredly reply with a definitive YES.

And the reason for that is he has nothing to compare the vessel to. That Captain has never set foot in an Ohio Class boat, Triomphant Class or a Vanguard Class boat. Apart from wiki specs, he knows nothing about a Trident or M51 SLBM. He only knows his vessel, in and out. And to him, his boat is the greatest technological achievement that India has made. It works just fine in the Indian security scenario and over time you introduce iterative improvements. In the words of Air Commodore KA Muthanna (retd), "Tejas is our plane. We can do whatever we want with it."

Now please don't catch the bull by the tail. I am not saying we must have horse blinders on and ignore what capabilities the enemy has. But in the absence of purchasing a foreign SSBN, India's only remaining choice was to develop her own. There was no other choice available.

The problem with Air HQ is that they always have had a choice and thus they are in perpetual comparison mode - Best is the Enemy of Good Enough. When a local platform is developed, there are a myriad of comparisons made. Jaguar has thicker windscreen, MiG-29 has a tighter turning radius, Mirage 2000 has better radar, Su-30MKI has longer endurance, Rafale is 4++ generation. So now Tejas must have even thicker windscreen, even more tighter turning radius, much better radar, improved endurance and must have 6th gen technologies in a 4th gen platform. And till you develop them, we will not buy it.

This is the problem. If AMCA is delayed, there is always Su-75, F-35, FCAS, Tempest. We will buy 2 squadrons of each. Simble Onlee.

Air HQ is like a freshman student (after attending an all boys school) who goes to a co-ed college. Day 1 he meets Geeta. Day Two, Geeta is out of the picture, because he met Reena. Day 3 he meets Priya, then Riya, then Sita, then Veena, etc. It never ends, because there is always a choice.

[drnayar]

Admiral., you hit the nail on the head !.. Quite so. I dont think the Chinese would have gotten this far if they were spoilt of choices !!

[basant]

And here is one more googly:

HAL is simultaneously ramping up R&D spend from out of its retained earnings. Ananthakrishnan said price negotiations, post inking of the MoU with General Electric (GE) for co-development of F414 engines which would power Tejas Mk2, have not started as yet.

Big revenue boost from FY25 on IAF’s Tejas order: HAL chief

[Rakesh]

How do you start price negotiations on a deal, based on just a MoU? Asking for a friend…

Till the US Congress clears the deal, what are you going to discuss exactly?

[basant]

I am not so worried about the price aspect, but baffled by this 'co-development' part.

[Rakesh]

The author of the article likely thought co-development is a better term to use that license production. Don't read too much into it.

Same author in June 2023 said this. In little over a month, the author changed co-produce to co-development. More alphabets, same meaning. But big words give the perception of weight, meaning, substance, etc. So will just add it in, regardless of how a reader may interpret that. Simble Onlee.

GE-HAL deal to co-produce 99 jet engines to cost less than $1 billion
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 001904.ece
24 June 2023

The General Electric (GE) Aerospace-Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) deal for transfer of technology (ToT) to co-produce engines in India for the LCA Tejas MK-2 is expected to cost less than a billion dollars for 99 engines

HAL will co-develop *NOTHING* on the F414 turbofan. GE will tell HAL how to turn the screwdriver and HAL will dutifully follow said instruction. That is co-development in HAL's eyes

But the annual HAL brochure will list GE F414 production as co-development and a shining example of Atmanirbhar Bharat!

[basant]

I doubt that, Admiral. I do not recollect anything along these lines being discussed reg. the engine. The only thing that comes to mind was the interest in F414-GE-INS6 vs F414-GE-EDE/EPE. Perhaps it is the INS6 version only.

[Rakesh]

We are not doing the EPE basant. Don't un-necessarily read into this.

If we were doing the EPE variant, there would not have been an announcement in France for a new turbofan.

India is not the Rothschilds. We cannot do multiple engine programs with different countries.

[basant]

Admiral, I know that EPE and EDE are ruled out.

Years ago there was excitement over the possibility, but then it died quickly. I do not know what makes INS6 different. Could be related to FADEC, not sure at all but would love to know.

[Rakesh]

You win basant

Many of these defence journalists have zero clue what they are talking about. They regurgitate whatever is told to them and then sprinkle it with English from the Thesaurus. Co-Production becomes Co-Development, by a few clicks on the keyboard.

[Manish_P]

What he saying (in the bolded part above, second para) is a utopian wish list. Even he knows that is not going to happen. Babus never give up control.

...
This is called playing the dual role of Good Cop-Bad Cop. Send out feelers and see what the response is. Keep legs in two different camps and then jump ship to one side (when it favours you).. This is how the bokwas of "emergency imports" starts.
....

That's probably the exact reason why he says what he says... when the balloon goes up it would be him (in his time).. and the boys now who have to go and actually fight putting their lives (and the future of their families) on the line. Not the sarkar, not the baboos, not the scientists.

And with each of our eggs being supplied by different hens, none of them our own, can you really blame him for wanting to ensure access to multiple coops..

Let's have a bird having our own engine and sensors and weapons all homegrown and then see if he talks the way he does. Till then i at least will extend him the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt.

(Not saying that your very valid points are not taken, mind).

[Pratyush]

Let's have a bird having our own engine and sensors and weapons all homegrown and then see if he talks the way he does. Till then i at least will extend him the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt.

(Not saying that your very valid points are not taken, mind).

This is the most important aspect.

The best way to keep your testimonials from getting squeezed is to keep them within your langot.

Not have them swinging in the breeze, within easy reach of multiple hands.

[VishnuS]

HAL will co-develop *NOTHING* on the F414 turbofan. GE will tell HAL how to turn the screwdriver and HAL will dutifully follow said instruction. That is co-development in HAL's eyes

But the annual HAL brochure will list GE F414 production as co-development and a shining example of Atmanirbhar Bharat!

Bhai, I know this isn't the right place to talk about F414, but once production starts, what are the chances of developing our own version just like how Sweden had done their own F404 aka R-12. I believe we have better metallurgy that the F414 developed decades ago. True, it will not be on par with EPE or EDE engines, but it will be better than F414 and we'll learn a bit more with mass production of the engine.

[Pratyush]

The dry Kaveri gives India the ability to develop a 414 equivalent.

EPE and EDE are possible within our technical base. Provided sufficient funding is provided to GTRE.

[basant]

पिछले साल प्रधानमंत्री नरेंद्र मोदी की सरकार ने तेजस एलसीए मार्क 2 फाइटर जेट (Tejas Mk2) को हरी झंडी मिली थी. अब इसके प्रोटोटाइप को बनाने की अनुमति मि... https://www.aajtak.in/science/photo/lca ... 23-08-08-2

Translation: The first flight of this indigenous Tejas-Mk2 multirole supersonic fighter jets will be on December 2, 2024. Their production will start from the year 2027.

Source: https://www.aajtak.in/

PS: I like the confidence in specifying the day! Hope there is some truth in this news. Going through the past 2-3 days news, it looks like we are reading news from parallel universes.

[souravB]

Sweden had done their own F404 aka R-12

Volvo has done the exact same thing (perhaps even less than) HAL will be doing with F414, has done with AL-31, Ardiden etc.

[Rakesh]

पिछले साल प्रधानमंत्री नरेंद्र मोदी की सरकार ने तेजस एलसीए मार्क 2 फाइटर जेट (Tejas Mk2) को हरी झंडी मिली थी. अब इसके प्रोटोटाइप को बनाने की अनुमति मि... https://www.aajtak.in/science/photo/lca ... 23-08-08-2

Translation: The first flight of this indigenous Tejas-Mk2 multirole supersonic fighter jets will be on December 2, 2024. Their production will start from the year 2027.

Source: https://www.aajtak.in/

PS: I like the confidence in specifying the day! Hope there is some truth in this news. Going through the past 2-3 days news, it looks like we are reading news from parallel universes.

They likely got those dates from this latest article from Manu Pubby...

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/16 ... 83232?s=20 ---> Jet engine deal with GE is a game changer, will engage private sector for tech absorption, says HAL. HAL CMD says India to get capability leap. First LCA Mk2 jets with new engine to fly end of next year.

GE jet engine deal a game changer; will engage private sector: HAL
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 511379.cms
07 Aug 2023

[Tanaji]

With respect to the article above: so what was HAL doing when they produced AL-31 “from raw materials”? How does one reconcile this statement with that?

[basant]

RM12 involved significant work. I hope that F414 involves no R&D as it will add to delays. What work was done by us on AL-31?

[Tanaji]

RM12 involved significant work. I hope that F414 involves no R&D as it will add to delays. What work was done by us on AL-31?

None. But I am referring to HAL chief quote that he did not have capability to produce engines and this time there will be technology absorption.

The same things were said when they boasted about manufacturing AL31

[Rakesh]

Screwdrivergiri is called Transfer of Technology, when in reality it is Transfer of Production.

Just following instruction onlee.

[Rakesh]

That's probably the exact reason why he says what he says... when the balloon goes up it would be him (in his time).. and the boys now who have to go and actually fight putting their lives (and the future of their families) on the line. Not the sarkar, not the baboos, not the scientists.

And with each of our eggs being supplied by different hens, none of them our own, can you really blame him for wanting to ensure access to multiple coops..

Let's have a bird having our own engine and sensors and weapons all homegrown and then see if he talks the way he does. Till then i at least will extend him the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt.

Absolutely!

The senior leadership of Air HQ does own a big chunk of the blame.

They knew 83 Mk1As was not going to be enough to address the squadron shortage. Yet they settled on that number, while waiting for the more lucrative phoren MRFA contract to come through. Earlier this year, Air HQ decided to order another 50 Mk1A air frames. What changed really? And where is that confirmed order? Having multiple aircraft types is a logistical nightmare, that Air HQ themselves have admitted to. When they had (and still have!) opportunities to address that issue, what are they doing? Waiting for MRFA to come through.

Both our enemies understand the concept of iterative development, because they have no other choice. JF-17, J-20, J-10, J-11, J-16...the list is endless. But we have different rules for foreign aircraft and local aircraft. Underpowered engines are fine, as the first batch of Jaguar and Mirage 2000s had them and the IAF still accepted them. Less powerful radar are also fine, as the first batch of MiG-29s, Mirage 2000s and Su-30Ks had them and yet the IAF still accepted them. Only the last Rafale (Serial No RB008) was of the FR3(I) standard and the previous 35 aircraft were of the F3R standard, but still the IAF accepted them. But Tejas Mk1 does not have a thicker windscreen, no AESA radar, not enough endurance....so it is not good enough.

See this gyan....

1st Batch Of LCA Tejas For Indian Air Force Had “28 Concessions”; May Not Get Any Against Pak, Chinese Air Force – IAF Veteran
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/1st-batch ... ncessions/
29 May 2022

“The first batch of LCA Tejas was handed over to IAF after Indian Air Force was ‘forced’ to grant (rather accept) 28 concessions to HAL. It may be of interest to mention that PAF (Pakistan Air Force) and PLAAF (Chinese Air Force) pilots are unlikely to grant any concessions to IAF pilots flying the Tejas involved in air combat with JF-17s or J-20s.”

So when Air HQ was accepting less capable MiG-29s, Jaguars, Su-30Ks and Rafales in the initial batches...what was that supposed to be? This was not a concession? And would PAF and PLAAF pilots grant concessions to IAF pilots - flying these particular aircraft - involved in combat with JF-17s or J-20s? Or is that line of thinking only reserved for local maal? If this is not hypocrisy, then what is? They have always had the luxury of choice and thus they can afford to play this game.

Till the late Manohar Parrikar intervened, Air HQ had no intention of accepting additional Tejas Mk1s. This gyan that the Air Marshal is giving would have better spent in working with HAL to get additional Tejas Mk1s into service. Every local product has to go through so many hoops and hurdles in India, that it is downright tragic. Tejas, HTT-40 and HAL Prachand are some that come to mind. Having your own aircraft and exercising control over what weapons can be employed and what sensors can be incorporated, versus being at the mercy of the OEM has to be explained to Air HQ?

[Rakesh]

Sweden had done their own F404 aka R-12

Volvo has done the exact same thing (perhaps even less than) HAL will be doing with F414, has done with AL-31, Ardiden etc.

Thank you SouravB

[Pratyush]

Rakesh,

It was just a message for you.

Edited as requested.

Thanks.

[Rakesh]

Pratyush, let us not hero worship anyone here. Not needed. I don’t know everything. Please edit your post. Your criticism is fine.

Hero worshipping babus, politicians and some senior military personnel is one of the reasons that led us to this mess. Sets a dangerous precedent which only fosters YES MEN.

Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw warned about this behaviour. And while Sam did not know everything either, he understood everything that mattered. The nation sorely misses Sam.

[titash]

https://www.eurasiantimes.com/1st-batch ... ncessions/

...“The first batch of LCA Tejas was handed over to IAF after Indian Air Force was ‘forced’ to grant (rather accept) 28 concessions to HAL. It may be of interest to mention that PAF (Pakistan Air Force) and PLAAF (Chinese Air Force) pilots are unlikely to grant any concessions to IAF pilots flying the Tejas involved in air combat with JF-17s or J-20s.”

...“Postponing, worse still, canceling the acquisition of strike elements from foreign vendors is a disaster waiting to happen. Immediate acquisition of suitably evaluated strike elements for IAF is the crying need of the hour. Let ‘imaginary mirage’ of LCA Mk II not lull us into complacency.”


With all due respect to Gp Capt. Tej Prakash Srivastava, our 2-front threat would not have materialized if the PLAAF had followed Gp Capt. Tej Prakash Srivastava's advise when it came to their air force's needs. They prioritized numbers and indigenization

1) The A-5 Fantan, F-6, F-7, F-8, F-8II were very low-tech fighters even with the most generous commentary. However they were built by the 1000s and contributed to a massive aerospace industry
2) Neither the mighty VVS / PVO Strany / RuAF or the mighty USAF or the "small numbers of imported high-tech fighters" IAF ever dared to challenge the PLAAF directly over the past 60 years
3) The PLAAF would never have built the J-10 or J-31 or J-20 if they hadn't gone through the junk A-5, F-6, F-7, F-8, F-8II series

The below conclusions are inescapable for people who wish to look beyond tactical considerations:

1) A overtly nuclear armed country with 1000s of "low tech" fighters is never going to be directly challenged --> If this is true for both the PLAAF and the VVS / PVO Strany, why won't it hold true for the IAF?
2) The IAF will never become a Tier-I air force unless it designs and manufactures its own aircraft. It was ok to be a bus driver in the last century, but now you have to make your own bus if you want to join the big league
3) Even if you import 500 of the latest western strike fighters, the PLAAF will simply build 5000 J-10/J-31/J-20 and you'll be left high and dry once again...something Gp Capt. Tej Prakash Srivastava doesn't understand