Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

[Manish_P]

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2022/02/ ... placement/

The L118 105mm Light Gun Replacement
February 11, 2022

^ Awesome... someone might well be noting the details to put in the next GQSR

[YashG]

So today Kalyani flagged off teh first 3 ATAGS for Armenia.

Twitterverse was making a point, when outside customers buy indian products before Indian Army. They are right something is not right in our system we always know. The commission khors stifling india's defence industry are the real desh-drohis. I think when the war comes, and we will be short on indigenous supplies, we will go begging for arms to all countries around the world. The commisions khors will make even more commisions then. But due to this we will pay with the life of our soldiers.

By all means the import lobby including the babus of MoD are the real 0.5 front in a 2,5 front war. They are hollowing out our defence preparedness.

[VinodTK]

So today Kalyani flagged off teh first 3 ATAGS for Armenia.

What a sad state of affairs

[isubodh]

So today Kalyani flagged off teh first 3 ATAGS for Armenia.

What a sad state of affairs

This is the good news part. IA orders should not be linked to our manufacturing capability. Eventually industry will produce lot of wares and enhancements that IA will not use.

But yes it would be sad if still IA goes for imports.

[Prem Kumar]

Unlike Brahmos, if we export Artillery & Tejas, it would be in spite of the Services Leadership, not because of them. We cannot win wars, cannot build an MIC complex or become a superpower with such powerful forces dragging us down from within.

[isubodh]

Unlike Brahmos, if we export Artillery & Tejas, it would be in spite of the Services Leadership, not because of them. We cannot win wars, cannot build an MIC complex or become a superpower with such powerful forces dragging us down from within.

If we are able to export enough artillery, lca, lch,luh, arjun ... the risk of actual war will also receded.

[Thakur_B]

Meanwhile IA hasn't placed an order for artillery shells in the last 4 years

[vimal]

Meanwhile IA hasn't placed an order for artillery shells in the last 4 years

They will place emergency orders from Phoren nation when schitt hits the roof.

[Pratyush]

I had posted a news link of lack of orders since 2019.

But the cold hard fact is that $hit hit the fan in 2020 with Galwan. Yet the Indian army chose not to order new shells.

What were they thinking?

Could it be that the ammo bunkers were totally filled to the brim with no storage space.

Or they thought, naah it will be fine.

[Thakur_B]

We have invested massively in ammunition manufacturing facilities. We have around 480 sharang, 100 K9 and 145 m777 in service. We plan to add another 300 sharang, 100 K9, 380 ATAGS and 114 Dhanush, bare minimum in the next 5 years, excluding the mounted gun system.

There is a global glut of 155mm ammunition and will last for another few years. Our factories should be going bonkers right now, instead we are wasting time.

[vimal]

Isn’t constant activity at the loc which involves arty and exercises where ammo is spent? How come we are not super short on ammo by now. Chandigarh gang at its best I say.

[ramana]

Thakur_B
Adani is opening a 3M/yr ammo rounds factory in UP defence corridor.
Munitions India got an order for 200k export order.

Let's see

[ArjunPandit]

what does OFB do ..wouldnt be ongoing orders for ammo ..find it extremely surprising with companies like OFB, BF,

[YashG]

some commission-khor in MoD is thinking if they place a massive order for artillery shell now how will they some foren shiny toy. For sure all mangoes in MoD arent rotten but many are terribly rotten and they have woven into cooperation with them high ranking defence forces officials, retired officals, media and all.

Modi made their lives worse and pushed them hard but even he is not enough to change course.

[Pratyush]

Why is the army not raising a stink about a lack of shell orders?

If it's a comission khor who is sitting on the procurement files.

[KSingh]

Unlike Brahmos, if we export Artillery & Tejas, it would be in spite of the Services Leadership, not because of them. We cannot win wars, cannot build an MIC complex or become a superpower with such powerful forces dragging us down from within.

If we are able to export enough artillery, lca, lch,luh, arjun ... the risk of actual war will also receded.

Few will buy your goods in serious quantities if your own services shirk it and issue RFIs for global equivalents

At what point does what the services are doing be counted as sabotage of not just national security but strategic industries?

Arjun was relegated as the worst MBT of the modern era thanks to the IA’s selective appraisement of and treatment of it. ATAGS could easily go the same way despite obviously being a high quality product, LUH, LCH too.

I’m struggling to see what the fruits of the negative import lists have been, the RFI circus still goes on and it’s getting even more ridiculous- splitting the Light tank to low DRDO units and a foreign design for the balance, leasing RSH/LUH etc.

The Govt of the day’s intent has been clear from day 1 but they’ve utterly failed to make it a reality mostly due to the resistance and outright sabotage by the MoD and uniformed officers.

[ramana]

There was a news report of a new long-barrel revolver by AWIL.
Buried in it is the news that orders for 300 Sharang guns are issued after delivering 15.

[ramana]

...
I’m struggling to see what the fruits of the negative import lists have been, the RFI circus still goes on and it’s getting even more ridiculous- splitting the Light tank to low DRDO units and a foreign design for the balance, leasing RSH/LUH etc.

The indigenous mfg bahadurs are caught lacking. Their refrain was just give us orders and we will churn out the maal. No maal churning out.

[Pratyush]

What orders were actually placed?

Can anyone actually provide links stating categorically so and so numbers of guns have to be delivered. ( K9 and M 777 don't count)

There was a news of a potential order for 450 Dhanush 45 caliber. But I haven't seen any firm orders.

We have seen AON after AON. But never seen any firm orders.

Sharang has seen orders only grudgingly.

Bharat Forge thinks that it will receive ATAGS orders in early 2024.

We shall see.

[KSingh]

...
I’m struggling to see what the fruits of the negative import lists have been, the RFI circus still goes on and it’s getting even more ridiculous- splitting the Light tank to low DRDO units and a foreign design for the balance, leasing RSH/LUH etc.

The indigenous mfg bahadurs are caught lacking. Their refrain was just give us orders and we will churn out the maal. No maal churning out.

What orders have they been given? ATAGS and WHaP should’ve been demonstrations of what the model can be- DRDO/private sector co-Development/marketing and production at scale for large scale orders delivering quality product at high rates, we all know what happened really…. RFI for foreign toys is out

Private players have stepped up every time they were asked to, even HAL has done this (LUH, LCH, HTT-40), but orders remain few and far between and if they ever come they are in comically low numbers, ~20 WHaP? 15 LCH?

[KSingh]

What orders were actually placed?

Can anyone actually provide links stating categorically so and so numbers of guns have to be delivered. ( K9 and M 777 don't count)

There was a news of a potential order for 450 Dhanush 45 caliber. But I haven't seen any firm orders.

We have seen AON after AON. But never seen any firm orders.

Sharang has seen orders only grudgingly.

Bharat Forge thinks that it will receive ATAGS orders in early 2024.

We shall see.

Precisely. We’ve even seen the same game played out for repeat orders of K9s, deal was expected to be signed multiple times over the last year but the last K9 was delivered by L&T a long time ago

What kind of a clown do you have to be to think this kind of stop start and unpredictable order environment is sustainable for any non-taxpayer funded organisation? This is probably why DPSUs were protected for so long- they kept their mouths shut and public employees occupied as the procurement circus went around in circles for decades

ATAGS (and the other arty units) being sold to Armenia is a complete slap in the face to the theory that the developers or production agencies are the hurdle.

[Pratyush]

This is a 52 calibre weapon.

AWEIL says upgraded Dhanush 155mm artillery gun ready for user trials
https://idrw.org/aweil-says-upgraded-dh ... er-trials/
18 Aug 2023

[Rakesh]

Artillery Modernisation and Indigenisation
https://bharatshakti.in/artillery-moder ... enisation/
19 August 2023

[bala]

Now Philippines is interested in Kalyani ATAGs and wants to place an order! Philippines and brahmos order is well known.

[Pratyush]

The Indian army is not going to procure the ATAGS.

They have made up their minds that unless ATAGS is under 15 tons. It's anything but ATAGS.

Athos 2052 is the first choice. If that is not available. Dhanush 52.

Never ATAGS.

[Yagnasri]

Athmanirbhar Bharat and buy Athos 2052. Jai Hind.

[ramana]

Sad to see these articles with the same content but different authors every three years.

[Manish_P]

Sad to see these articles with the same content but different authors every three years.

If the old system continues, the IA (Indian Army) will ensure that in a couple of years such articles will simply be generated by AI

[mody]

With regards to lack of 155mm ammo orders, one point to consider is that we have had a ceasefire on the LoC since Feb 2021, which has largely held and even prior to that in 2020, arty fire on the LoC had reduced.
I don't think there will be any open source info on the average number of 155mm shells that IA was firing on the LoC per year. But with the all quite on the western front, the opex requirement for 155mm shells has reduced over the last 3 years.

We have a fairly decent manufacturing capacity for arty shells in the public and private sector and have only imported precision guided shells in the past 10-15 years.
If there indeed is a shortage of arty shells, the orders for the same would have been placed. Maybe we have enough stock currently. Also bear in mind that the shells too have a shelf life.

Would love to see a desi equivalent of the Excalibur being developed or progress on the IIT Madras ramjet powered precision guided shell.

[Rakesh]

The size of the ATAGS!

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 33369?s=20 ---> ATAGS during the high altitude cold weather trials.

[YashG]

Sad to see these articles with the same content but different authors every three years.

If the old system continues, the IA (Indian Army) will ensure that in a couple of years such articles will simply be generated by AI

With all the import lobby drivel available - AI can already do that. You will not even know the difference.

[Kakkaji]

The size of the ATAGS!

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 33369?s=20 ---> ATAGS during the high altitude cold weather trials.

How does it score on the “shoot and scoot” ability?

[VinodTK]

^^^ I have feeling in the modern battle field scenario with drones and fire locating radars life would be tough for guns like ATAGS

[Yagnasri]

You may be true. But countermeasures for Drones are already developed and being developed. Shoot and scoot and real-time recon/info+precision fire-making systems like ATAGS are very deadly now.

[Pratyush]

^^^ I have feeling in the modern battle field scenario with drones and fire locating radars life would be tough for guns like ATAGS

Arty has existed with counter battery radar for nearly 50 years. It has adapted and survived.

Drones represent a novel threat. But they're not a magic bullet. The EM spectrum emissions needed to control FPV drones, or targetting drones are something that can be jammed on the battlefield. Thereby, reducing the threat.

What cannot be jammed OTOH is a communication link based of fiberoptic cables. During the late 80s and 90s. A whole bunch of nations developed missiles guided by fiberoptic cables for non line of sight applications.

I believe that the response to the Ukraine war and specifically the limits brought upon by enemy EW on your own ability to use loitering munitions and targeting drones. We are going to see a return to non line of sight fiberoptic guided missiles.

That will represent a serious threat to arty and second echelon assets.

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2023/05/ ... nd-others/

Published on 13, May 2023.

Fibre Optic Guided Missiles (EFOG-M, Polyphem, And Others)

Quoting last 2 para graphs of the linked article above.

Non-emitting, 40-60km range, ECM immune, decent sized warhead and a range of advanced seeker technologies meant in their day, they would have no doubt been effective.

It is also interesting to ponder how they might have performed in Ukraine, and how close they are to current requirements and systems like Land Precision Strike and Exactor.

[Kakkaji]

So, how does ATAGS’s “shoot & scoot” ability compare with the Bofors in service with the IA? I remember it was a key criterion when Bofors was selected

[Pratyush]

Bofors was inferior in terms of mobility under APU. When it was compared to the other competitors.

The Bofors was superior in rate of fire as compared to the other guns in the competition.

The Bharat Forge ATAGS is based on carriage of GHN 45. It was a superior product when compared with the original Bofors gun.

The TATA product is based on the G5 carriage. This carriage and gun was designed under the leadership of the man who had designed the carriage gun of the GHN 45( Gerald Bull). That makes it nearly an equal to the Bharat Forge product in terms of mobility under APU.

In other words, both the Bharat Forge and TATA product are superior in terms of under APU mobility, when compared to the Bofors.

Furthermore, both the guns are superior in terms of rate of fire. When compared with the Bofors. Due to the availability of 5 round ammunition clips. Compared to 3 round clips for Bofors and by definition the Dhanush 45 and 52.

Furthermore, ATAGS is also superior in terms of rate of fire when compared with the Athos 52. As Athos 52 also fires from a 3 round clip.

[Pratyush]

Interestingly the PRC also availed the services of Gerald Bull in the 80s. Their 45 caliber 155 piece was based on the Austrian GHN 45.

[Kakkaji]

Thanks Pratyush!

[Atmavik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v05NzslPO4E

first look of ATAGS for Armenia. Baba Kalyani is seen breaking the coconut.