Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 10717?s=20 ---> Production of 83 Tejas Mark 1-A jets is scheduled to be followed by 130 Tejas Mark-2 jets; 126 jets of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and another order of 50 jets of Tejas Mark-1A is expected.

Report By: @ajaynewsman

[Rakesh]

Tejas Mk1A Squadron Gears Up for Deployment At Forward Airbase In Early 2024
https://defencenewsupdates.com/tejas-mk ... arly-2024/
24 August 2023

...the Chairman and Managing Director of HAL, C.B. Ananthakrishnan, promised that deliveries of the 83 LCA Mk-1A planes that were signed for 2021 would start in February of the following year.

Based on these promises, the CAS said that the LCA Mk 1A could be put into a “newly established squadron” at one of the IAF’s operational bases. Even though project delays were talked about during the review, the CAS praised everyone’s work and emphasized how important it is to use what was learned from the LCA program in future indigenous design and development projects. The Ministry says that if the MK1A version is delivered on time, the LCA program will be able to send more planes to forward bases and take part in more foreign exercises.

[ashishvikas]

Around 100 more LCA Mark1As
Coming for the @IAF_MCC in a deal which would be worth more than USD 8 billion. Superb decision by IAF.

https://twitter.com/ajitkdubey/status/1 ... cvTHw&s=19

[ashishvikas]

IAF to order around 100 more LCA Mark-1A fighter jets for over USD 8 billion
Read more At:
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 824185201/

[Bharadwaj]

^^^^^^
Me going to bed early..... things getting very twilight zoney for me....

[Rakesh]

Around 100 more LCA Mark1As
Coming for the @IAF_MCC in a deal which would be worth more than USD 8 billion. Superb decision by IAF.

https://twitter.com/ajitkdubey/status/1 ... cvTHw&s=19

IAF to order around 100 more LCA Mark-1A fighter jets for over USD 8 billion
Read more At:
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 824185201/

I AM SORRY...BUT WHAT????

[Rakesh]

If the above order comes through, then it will be 73 Tejas Mk1As + 36 Tejas Mk1s + 18 twin seat Tejas trainers + 100 Tejas Mk1As (waiting to see the breakdown of fighters + trainers in this new contract) = 227 aircraft in total. That is a damn good production run.

Four squadrons of the Tejas Mk1A (from the first order) + Five squadrons of the Tejas Mk1A (from the second order) = Nine squadrons of the Tejas Mk1A + two squadrons of the Tejas Mk1. If we break down the numbers (on a one-to-one squadron replacement);

1) Four MiG-21 Bison Squadrons (one squadron - No 51 Sword Arms - already retired in 2022).
2) Six Jaguar IS/IM/IB Squadrons

The plan for 120 Tejas Mk2s (6 squadrons) will be to replace the following;

1) Three MiG-29UPG Squadrons
2) Three Mirage 2000I/TI Squadrons

Really happy for the Indian Air Force. A wise decision. Air HQ just doubled the 50 additional Mk1A order. And the best part is that they have made this commitment before the signing of the MRFA contract.

[nash]

As per that article, IAF has submitted to Government. So now it is totally on government court to clear it.

Just a hunch here that Modi will use this order of 100 Mk1A and equally large order of LCH and LUH to counter any opposition argument against big order of Rafale before election.

[Rakesh]

Atmanirbhar Bharat is the Govt's policy. This is a decision that both parties have agreed to and this news release is for pubic consumption.

It would be icing on the cake if the Govt orders what you have stated above before the General Election. Keeping fingers crossed.

[rajkumar]

...

Dilbu please come to this thread....

[Rakesh]

^^^ I have edited your post above to get Dilbu-ji's attention.

[Pratyush]

This decision is 15 years too late.

Don't know if I should celebrate it. Or face palm

[Rakesh]

This decision is 15 years too late.

Don't know if I should celebrate it. Or face palm

Don't do self flagellation. Serves no point.

[Bharadwaj]

It probably also costs a lot less per hour for a Tejas to do CAP or even sit on alert than a Rafale or a Rambha. Economics and common sense was always going to prevail, but a pleasant shock nonetheless.

[Tanaji]

Rakeshji

On the first page of this thread should not the engine be GE F404? The link is good though.

[Rakesh]

Rakeshji

On the first page of this thread should not the engine be GE F404? The link is good though.

oops Fixed.

Thank you so much Tanaji.

[Rakesh]

@ashishvikas: I was going to reply to your post, but it disappeared. Can you please repost?

It probably also costs a lot less per hour for a Tejas to do CAP or even sit on alert than a Rafale or a Rambha. Economics and common sense was always going to prevail, but a pleasant shock nonetheless.

Not sure about the Rafale, but the Rambha takes a good deal of time to get into the air.

The Bison has the quickest time and the Tejas will be more than a capable successor.

[ashishvikas]

@ashishvikas: I was going to reply to your post, but it disappeared. Can you please repost?

I deleted my post as it wasn't going to add any value here, anyways this news is too good (like dream) but at the moment just has one source - ANI.

Would love to see this being confirmed by additional sources.

I just see hvt retweet one of tweet of Kuntal Biswas which gives lots of comfort.

[Rakesh]

@ashishvikas: I was going to reply to your post, but it disappeared. Can you please repost?

I deleted my post as it wasn't going to add any value here, anyways this news is too good (like dream) but at the moment just has one source - ANI.

Would love to see this being confirmed by additional sources.

I just see hvt retweet one of tweet of Kuntal Biswas which gives lots of comfort.

I have usually found ANI to be fairly good, because they usually repeat talking points.

But the number (100) does make sense if you break it down, as I have done in an earlier post. And it was HVT Sir who stated that the Tejas has a better radius of action than the Jaguar. And if HVT re-tweeted it, then it does give it more credence. Lets wait and see for more info.

But Holy Smokes Batman, this is awesome

[fanne]

I don't want to Jinx it or give very different ideas to anyone (foreign lobby)-
In my mind, we need LCA MK1A as it is the only plane we manufacture. LCA MK2 should be easy, but who knows when it ill complete all testing. R&D effort by its nature are risky and cannot be time boxed. Though it is the same wing (including the wing size and shape) as MK1A, LCA MK2 has canards, different fuselage and engine. There is also one valid criticism, if LCA MK2 were to meet all its goal, it will be sluggish. So when will it be ready for induction- 2028? 2030? 2032? who knows
Keeping that in mind we need planes, if we get LCA MK 2 SAY BY 2026-2028, we should switch to LCA MK2, if we get LCA MK2 by 2032, then continue the run for 100 extra LCA MK1A.
MK1A has one major flaw - size and endurance. It is really a Mig 21 sized aircraft. With fuel tanks it will have 4 pylons free, good for 2 bvr and 2 wvr in CAP and 1-2 LGB plus 2 AA missiles in attack role. Pretty good to defend its own base and some attack. Limited numbers are good, too many, you want LCA MK2 - it is size of Mirage. It will have 6-8 pylons for weapon, even with drop tanks (that will give it 2 times or more endurance than mk1a). MK2 will take the fight deep into enemy territory or do a CAP over a wide area.
As someone is pointing, this is little late (but we don't have much of a choice). With China having 5th gen aircrafts in numbers and TSP angling for getting hem from China/Turkey, we are even late with LCA MK2, we need AMCA now. But, alas, paying for whatever game whoever has played in the past.

[rajsunder]

I believe that the line to make 100 MK1A should be given to private players, who agree to partake in AMCA program.

[basant]

Performance of Mk1 can be inferred from Gripen C and development time may also be similar to that of Gripen-E. Could be faster, but one shouldn't be shocked if it turns out to be similar. I always liked the original proposal from HAL, to plugin GE-F414 in place of the F404. It would have given additional power to carry more external fuel and might have mitigated the range issue to a better extent. In fact, Gripen Demonstrator that did the same attained supercruise at Mach 1.2. However, there are several improvements as was discussed in an excellent article by IR and Nilesh that discusses aerodynamic improvements leading to superior performance. And the MTOW may not be relevant on ORP duty, so sluggishness may not be an issue.

[fanne]

First line is confusing, did you mean MK2 and Gripen E at both places? replacement with F414 would have been less efficient (the current strategy is the right one) -
1. changing engine would have meant different air intake (since the intake dia is different by inch, mass flow of f414 is 15% more), change in design and testing and delays
2. More mass flow means better performance but at the cost of endurance and range (aggravating the problem that LCA has). In my opinion, the performance of LCAMK1/1a is adequate
3. I don't think MK1A is limited by engine power for carrying external storage. It maybe limited by its size. I Don't think you can put 2500 liter tank, it may be bigger than the plane (sarcasm alert)

[basant]

No sir. Gripen C is similar to the Tejas Mk1 with F404. Gripen E with Tejas Mk2. There was a model of Gripen that had F414 in the original Gripen (JAS 39). This a/c, called Gripen Demo, flew in 2009 and achieved supercruise. Here is the link.

[Rakesh]

Air Force to purchase 100 additional India-made Tejas Mk-1A fighter jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2023-08-24
24 Aug 2023

The officials further added that the proposals for the projects have been submitted to the Defence Ministry and clearance for the order is expected in the near future.

[sajaym]

As someone is pointing, this is little late (but we don't have much of a choice). With China having 5th gen aircrafts in numbers and TSP angling for getting hem from China/Turkey, we are even late with LCA MK2, we need AMCA now. But, alas, paying for whatever game whoever has played in the past.

True. Infact, I feel that this order might actually lead to the mk2 order being cancelled and efforts diverted to the TEDBF. IAF might be looking at jumping from LCA Mk1A straight to the AMCA, using the MRFA as a bridge instead of the LCA Mk2. IAF can always add a few land based TEDBF later on if it turns out to be Swiss cheese (in place of the initial 40 LCA Mk1s). All in all...this latest order of 100 more LCA Mk1As definitely smells like the MRFA order is also going to be a huge one! Either that...or the dirty F-word...F-35

[Rakesh]

Do the math please. Even with 100 additional Tejas Mk1As plus 114 MRFA, Air HQ will still will not achieve 42 squadrons.

The Jaguars, Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s will all be gone by the next decade. Air HQ need aircraft in triple digits of various kinds and only the Tejas can fill that in a realistic budget.

The Tejas Mk2 is coming. What is the point of the GE F414 screwdrivergiri factory then?

And AMCA will not come anytime before 2040.

[Rakesh]

Fighter squadrons depleting, IAF eyes 100 more Tejas Mk1A
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 037265.cms
25 August 2023

“The IAF is desperate to stem the depletion in the number of its fighter squadrons, which is down to just 31 now. They include three old MiG-21 Bison squadrons that have to be retired soon. Moreover, there should be no break in the production schedule of HAL,” a top defence source said.

“Consequently, after the earlier order for 83 Tejas jets, the IAF has now made a statement of case for an additional 100 Mk1A fighters. The proposal is being submitted to the Defence Ministry for approval,” he added.

[Pratyush]

I believe that the line to make 100 MK1A should be given to private players, who agree to partake in AMCA program.

Modern aircraft production is not a function of who runs the final assembly line. It's a function of the supply chain infrastructure.

Which in turn is a function of a steady stream of orders needing creation of supply chain having such bandwidth.

[Pratyush]

Fighter squadrons depleting, IAF eyes 100 more Tejas Mk1A
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 037265.cms
25 August 2023

“
Moreover, there should be no break in the production schedule of HAL,”

Finally someone is thinking about the cost incurred by the nation, when a PSU holds a line in place...but without any orders to keep it running economically.

[Prem Kumar]

The India Today report had a confusing sentence that said that eventually, the IAF will operate 300 MK1A's!!

I think that was DDM'itis at play

[SSridhar]

But Holy Smokes Batman, this is awesome

Absolutely no doubt, Rakesh.

Especially when earlier on, about two years back, there were some doubts about IAF's commitment to Tejas.

But, in AeroIndia recently, the IAF Chief had said that an additional 50 Mk1A would be ordered. Now he has added another 50 to that list. Superb.

Now, the ball is in GoI's hands to progress it further and quickly too.

[Cain Marko]

Fighter squadrons depleting, IAF eyes 100 more Tejas Mk1A
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 037265.cms
25 August 2023

“The IAF is desperate to stem the depletion in the number of its fighter squadrons, which is down to just 31 now. They include three old MiG-21 Bison squadrons that have to be retired soon. Moreover, there should be no break in the production schedule of HAL,” a top defence source said.

“Consequently, after the earlier order for 83 Tejas jets, the IAF has now made a statement of case for an additional 100 Mk1A fighters. The proposal is being submitted to the Defence Ministry for approval,” he added.

BLOODY HELL! THIS IS GREAT NEWS. FIRST CY3 AND NOW THIS! OMG!

I've been hoping for this order for what seems like ages, but is now actually happening. Go go go!

[bala]

Tejas MK1A has many imported components - engines, ejection seat, etc. GE 404 engines cost $ 716 m for 99 in 2021, the current year costs could mean ~ $1B for 100 such engines. GE is in the process of setting up India manufacturing plant. The other imported maal are way less in cost. GoI MOD babus and finance calculators may hold up the decision for some time before giving their Nod since foreign currency is involved. I hope they quickly agree and get the ball rolling. The squadrons of Tejas with Astra, AESA radar and brahmos NG will be terrible nightmare for anyone.

[Neela]

GE Engines - I used worry a lot about this. But of late, I have seen first hand how Mercantile the Americans are. Ruthless. Going as far as to break pipelines to get the business.
And there is no other market outside as big as what MK1A and MK2 can offer.
It also explains recent deals done with GE.
Lets not also forget that we are talking perhaps 1000 engines over the entire lifespan. And of course, they know we are engaging with SAfran in the future.
The Indian engine market is something the Americans will not let go off easily and will do whatever it takes. They are ruthlessly mercantile - both Reps and Dems.

[isubodh]

Fighter squadrons depleting, IAF eyes 100 more Tejas Mk1A
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 037265.cms
25 August 2023

Finally someone is thinking about the cost incurred by the nation, when a PSU holds a line in place...but without any orders to keep it running economically.

If this order is signed, what would be the production rate. Will go up to 24 ? Still its 7-8 yrs delivery timeline.

[basant]

My guess is that we will have 24/yr production rate. The price of the earlier 83 a/c was 6.5 B USD and for 100 it would be close to 7.83B - 8B (round off?). This might just be an acknowledgement that the Mk2 will take more time. Plus there could be more Rafales (hopefully) to augment the strength, which is required. The purpose of the strength is to deter and make a difference in combat, it's no monopoly game to wait for the building of 42 sq. We almost came to the brink of a war, that too on two fronts. It would be suicidal to keep waiting for the LCA Mk2 for whatever reasons as we need to augment strength and quality too. A clash may happen anytime, and we almost saw it in the past couple of years.

[Tanaji]

I do suspect that this will cause a reduction in the Mk 2 numbers though. Or a push to cancel it in favour of AMCA - a mistake to be sure, but thats how Air HQ will take its pound of flesh.

[Rakesh]

I do suspect that this will cause a reduction in the Mk 2 numbers though. Or a push to cancel it in favour of AMCA - a mistake to be sure, but thats how Air HQ will take its pound of flesh.

viewtopic.php?p=2598739#p2598739

[Rakesh]

The India Today report had a confusing sentence that said that eventually, the IAF will operate 300 MK1A's!!

I think that was DDM'itis at play

Over enthusiastic reporter. Take 100 x 3. Simble Onlee!