Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[drnayar]

I suppose the 100 production order would scale up efficiencies and build up supply chains for a second bigger production run for the Mk2? Makes sense if so.

[Rakesh]

I suppose the 100 production order would scale up efficiencies and build up supply chains for a second bigger production run for the Mk2? Makes sense if so.

Bingo Doctor Saab!

Everything in the Mk2 is tied into the Mk1A (weapons, radar, sensors, etc). Everything in the AMCA is tied into the Mk2.

Jump the gun (Mk1A to AMCA) and you will delay the AMCA program.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 28601?s=20 ---> As the news of the Indian Air Force to order further 100 Light Combat Aircraft Tejas Mk1A for the IAF (83 already on order), here is an argument by @sriramthg from 2017 in @delhidefence, on the need to build more LCA Tejas for the IAF.

Why Building More Tejas Fighters Is A Superior Option For The Indian Air Force
https://delhidefencereview.com/2017/12/ ... air-force/
11 December 2017

[Prem Kumar]

Hope they agree to a delivery schedule of all 183 MK1A's by end of 2030. That would be a stretch goal for HAL (183 in 7 years) but achievable, if they are able to rollout MK1A by Feb next year as promised

[Rakesh]

Hope they agree to a delivery schedule of all 183 MK1A's by end of 2030. That would be a stretch goal for HAL (183 in 7 years) but achievable, if they are able to rollout MK1A by Feb next year as promised

Production numbers are dependent on a number of factors, but some are;

* Annual CAPEX availability
* Capacity of HAL's three production lines
* Other programs in the pipeline (AEW, MRFA, Aircraft Upgrades, etc)

183 aircraft / 7 years = 26+ a year. If they can achieve the 24 per year, it would be a laudable goal. That would be more than a squadron's worth per year. *AT MINIMUM* 20 Tejas Mk1As every year, which will allow Air HQ to raise one squadron a year.

The proposal of additional Tejas Mk1As has only been sent to the MoD. They have to approve it. It should be a quick move though, as Self Reliance is this Govt's own stated policy. If they move slowly on this, they will be labelled as hypocrites.

[titash]

Do the math please. Even with 100 additional Tejas Mk1As plus 114 MRFA, Air HQ will still will not achieve 42 squadrons.

The Jaguars, Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s will all be gone by the next decade. Air HQ need aircraft in triple digits of various kinds and only the Tejas can fill that in a realistic budget.

The Tejas Mk2 is coming. What is the point of the GE F414 screwdrivergiri factory then?

And AMCA will not come anytime before 2040.

Admiral-ji,

One thing that is not being highlighted is the qualitative improvement we're going to see.

We are losing the MiG-21 Bis/Bison interceptors and the ground attack MiG-27/Jaguars fleets. These were single role and prone to pilot error and engine flameouts leading to attrition and loss of young pilots

They will be replaced by 40 + 83 + 100 multi-role Tejas Mk1/Mk1As. We are getting:

1) An agile dogfighter that can fire the R-73, ASRAAM, Python-5, and a future Indian CCM

2) An interceptor with an Indian AESA radar, which can be upgraded over time and retrofitted to the Mk1s

3) A BVR capable fighter that can launch Derby, Astra Mk1 and the big stick Astra Mk2, and in future the Ramjet equipped Meteor, Astra Mk3

4) An ground-attack fighter that can accurately deliver LGBs and dumb bombs using the tightly-integrated Lightening LDP

5) A wild-weasel aircraft that can launch the anti-radiation Rudram-1 and perhaps long-range Rudram-2

6) Fitment with BrahMos-NG is planned in the future but I'm not sure what the exact use of said missile is

7) The engine is highly reliable and doesn't crap out ---> no peacetime losses of aircraft

8] Most-importantly the plane has proven safe to fly, and young pilots and their parents need not fear ---> no unnecessary losses of pilots

There is definitely some capability loss namely the MiG-21s Mach 2+ interception capabilities and the low-level penetration capabilities of the Jaguar. But the rest of the world as moved on, so the missions must currently be fulfilled in another manner

[Rakesh]

Fully agree titash-ji. +108!

[YashG]

I hope/expect more orders, probably a 100 more.

But my fervent hope is that Mk1A has a total of atleast 250 orders + 150 from export orders. Since many parts are same as Mk1, Mk2, therefore economy of scale for many subsystems will be ~600+ systems.

> this leads to reduction of unit cost by 40-50%. 10-15% reduction at each doubling of Units. (83 -> 180 ->360 -> 720)

> this becomes the F16 of the global south.

[ashishvikas]

Tejas Mk1 with DRDO ASPJ Pod

https://twitter.com/Duorope/status/1695 ... 85761?s=20

https://twitter.com/SoumyaR57322232/sta ... 64498?s=20

[fanne]

Hope is soaring!! Indeed it is a very good news. Since everyone is on demanding mode my wish for future variants of MK1A (i.e. newer blocks say after 2025)

1. GaAn based radar (Theone being developed for MK2 or SU30MKI)- These are more efficient than GAAS based (actually twice as good). This will help LCA MK 1A manage frugal F404 output better.
It will also be help against stealth fighter - detect them further
2. Have a Optical (IRST + HDTV Camera -like Rafale) tracking system (mainly for giving it a chance against Stealth target, it is said one can detect 1degree C difference out in space with these, planes are much hotter). It can be placed under the fuselage (like F-35) or if LCA Mk2 radar is picked, it is small, maybe this can be nose mounted.
3. EW system like Rafale (RWR, Auto jamming, maybe skin mounted GAN radar for 360 degree coverage)- Ported from SU30MKI
4. State of art Helmet mounted system - Like F-35 - All display of what is needed at that time is though the HMS, no need to refer to the cockpit anymore
5. Some form of AI - to fly and land, detect enemy, detect system health and remedy situation, and fight, like calculate and release AG weapon without pilot involvement (except his final go), smae with AA missile. If the AI can fly the plane through a dog/WVR fight, this plane will be lethal. The beauty is all of this can be developed and developmnt cost be distributed among LCA 1a,lca 2, amca, tedbf, su30mki/mig 29/m2k upgrades etc.

[VKumar]

Need to put in a R2D2

[Rakesh]

For folks who believe that Tejas Mk2 is in danger, please read below....

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 78743?s=20 ---> By 2035 India plans to retire:
• 3 MiG-21 squadrons
• 6 Jaguar squadrons
• 3 Mirage 2000 squadrons
• 3 MiG-29 squadrons

So by 2035, India plans to retire 15 squadrons.

What IAF will have from current and ordered fleet.
• 12-13 Su-30MKI squadrons
• 6 Tejas squadrons
• 2 Rafale squadrons

Total of 20-21 squadrons

You need order of additional 10 squadrons just to reach current level in 2035 and another 12 to reach sanctioned level of 42 squadrons. So five additional squadrons of Tejas Mk1A will never mean death of MMRCA. You still need them in concurrence with MK1A *AND* Mk2, since Mk2 will only start by the time Mk1A production ends and that will be around 2030 - 31.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 64225?s=20 ---> So we will be needing 15 squadrons and adding 5 Mk1A, 6 Mk2 and 5 AMCA. So ordering around that number. Basically this tells me is *MORE* Tejas Mk2 will be ordered as it picks up steam. Makes no sense to order a similar 4.5G MRFA. Most likely program will be curtailed or dropped.

==============================

All chess moves (MRCBF, additional Tejas Mk1A, JV with Safran, etc) are being made for a repeat - but truncated - Rafale order in 2024. Watch out for this number (74) for additional Rafales for the IAF or four more Rafale squadrons.

The end goal is to suck the oxygen right out of the MRFA contest. The MRCBF and additional Tejas Mk1A are key to this plan.

[drnayar]

Need to put in a R2D2

it should come as a desi spectra variant. AI enabled "active stealth".. love that sentence. would make the F35 obsolete

[Prem Kumar]

I think AI can play a big role as a virtual co-pilot in a single seater aircraft.

In a situation like the one that WingCo Abhinandan found himself in, an AI-enabled Tejas MK1A can process the detection of an incoming AMRAAM, initiate defensive measures and even compute a firing solution against the 2nd F-16, while he is pursuing the 1st one.

[fanne]

I hope these nec order have improvements that will make it potent against LO (J20/J31/ANKA) - Optical system (that's why all5th gen have it, it is best way to 'see' stealth), GAAN based better radar (to detect/track LO at larger distance), very good 360 degree RWR (that also works against LPI radars) and jamming (to detect any EM coming from LO, LO will have to use its radar (unless helped by other assets) to fight, you get them there).
Make LCA MK1A also count against the chinese and fututure tspaf LO platforms.

[basant]

I really pray that no one from IAF SQR/purchase is reading this thread!

[Rakesh]

I really pray that no one from IAF SQR/purchase is reading this thread!

R2D2...my oh my!!!

[Rakesh]

Hope they agree to a delivery schedule of all 183 MK1A's by end of 2030. That would be a stretch goal for HAL (183 in 7 years) but achievable, if they are able to rollout MK1A by Feb next year as promised.

Your wish came true

HAL plans to boost production to meet IAF demand for 183 LCA jets
https://www.news9live.com/india/hal-pla ... ts-2263660
25 Aug 2023

HAL has three aircraft assembly facilities, two in Bengaluru and one in Nashik, with a capacity of assembling 16 fighter jets annually. “We will ramp up our capacity to build around 24 fighters per year in the next 18 months. This means that the entire order of 183 LCAs will be delivered to the Indian Air Force in the next eight years,” a top HAL official told News9.

If ordered in 2023/2024, all aircraft will be delivered by 2031/2032...just in time to switch over to Tejas Mk2!

“It’s pure numbers. You have two squadrons of LCA Mark 1, and 83 aircraft on order will equip four more squadrons. That’s six squadrons. They will buy 100 more, so that would equip five more squadrons. That will make 11 LCA squadrons in all. Right now, MiG 21s are three or four squadrons, but at one time, there were more than 20 squadrons,” said Air Marshal SBP Sinha (Retd).

Thus two Mk1 squadrons + nine Mk1A squadrons. Nice!

[Prem Kumar]

That's great! This is what Wiki says

The original two Tejas production lines were located in HAL's Bengaluru facility and have a combined production capacity of 16 aircraft per year. In order to speed up delivery, a third production line in HAL's Nashik factory with a capacity of 8 Tejas aircraft per year was inaugurated on 5th April 2023 by Defence Secretary Giridhar Aramane, taking the production capacity of Tejas LCA to a total of 24 aircraft per year

So, HAL will use all 3 lines (24 per year) for the existing + forthcoming order of a total of 183 jets. At 24 per year, they can make a max of 192 jets in 8 years, which means that they must deliver 15 MK1As on 2024 itself (assuming they will hit the 24 mark every year from 2025 onwards)!

That means, right from 2024 itself, their 2 HAL lines must work full throttle to deliver close to their annual capacity of 15, even though the first jet will fly in 2024 only. If they can do this, while simultaneously ramping up Nashik, that'd be awesome!

Also, they don't have 18 months to ramp up Nashik. They have till December 2024, which is 16 months max. In 2025, Nashik must produce its quota of 8 fighters

1 squadron a year is a very good target! But given that, prior to their 8 years (ending in 2031 end), we must start rolling out MK2, its pretty obvious that they must get at least 1 more production line going (making it 4 in total). Given this eventuality, they might as well start early and get the line running soon, so that they can deliver the MK1A order faster than 8 years. They also have to factor the real possibility of getting export orders for MK1A too!

[basant]

Minor hiccups can be expected for the Mk1As, that would not be surprising. It happened with FOC also. Once stabilized, it should be smooth as was the case with the Sukhoi production. However, some lag is to be expected between Mk1A and Mk2 production and stabilization. Buying refuellers will be a positive steps to mitigate the range limitations of Mk1As to certain extent.

[Rakesh]

Prem Kumar: I agree with basant. The first year will have hiccups and lags. If that continues into Year 2 (and gets progressively worse), then that would be worrisome. But till that occurs, we should remain optimistic and hope for the best. See the production schedule (of the 83 order) from the first post of this thread. This will obviously change now...

Planned Deliveries of Mk1A-FOC Single Seat Fighter - URL, 13 Aug 2021
• 2024: 2 aircraft
• 2025: 8 aircraft
• 2026: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2027: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2028: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2029: 14 - 16 aircraft

The more important goal to achieve *RIGHT NOW* are two things;

1) Sign an actual contract with HAL for 100 Tejas Mk1A aircraft.
2) Sign a second contract with GE for 100+ F404-IN20 turbofans*

Only after the above two are completed, can production capacity and schedule be ascertained with any certainty. Till the above occurs, all other discussions are academic.

*Contract was signed with GE in Aug 2021 for 99 F404-IN20 turbofans for the first batch of 83 Tejas Mk1A aircraft.

[ashishvikas]

^^ Sir, after this contract signing for 83 Mk1A, there has been a development with a new Nasik line for 8 Tejas Mk1a. As soon as this starts production in next 2/3 years and overall production capacity hits 24/year - All initial lags can be overcome in just 1 year.

[ashishvikas]

Watch "Rakhwale: Chandrayaan3 Soft landing के दिन ही LCA Tejas से Astra का ट्रायल, 100 और जेट्स का ऑर्डर आया" on YouTube

[ashishvikas]

Watch "Decoding The Tejas-Astra Firing! How Much Improved Is Tejas Compared To The Baseline Aircraft?" on YouTube

[srin]

So, the Astra was fired by LSP-7. Begs the question - what radar was used to cue the Astra missile ? Was it the 2032-hybrid radar of Tejas Mk1 or the 2052 radar of Mk1A (is LSP-7 a testbed for 2052?) or is it Uttam AESA ?

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 87089?s=20 ---> DRDO Advanced Self Protection Jammer (ASPJ). It works in conjunction with DRDO's Dhruti RWR. Dhruti is a digital ultra wideband RWR distributed around aircraft for real time emitter tracking & provides input to active phased array, ultra wideband DRFM based external ASPJ jammer pod.

[Prem Kumar]

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/is-indi ... radar-race

A very good article in Swarajya about the strides have made in AESA tech. Looks like Astra microwave is ready to make (or maybe even making already) GaN radars

Another interesting snippet: that Astra-Mk1's latest version is fitted with a GaAs AESA seeker

[basant]

From internet sources, it appears to be Uttam.

[VKumar]

One line or facility will soon have to be built, dedicated to upgrade previous production batches as new technology flows in.

[fanne]

I would say every two years (say aftr 50 aircrafts), new batch with both new hardware and software (software perhaps sooner) should be baked in MK1A planning.

I can see many things from MK2, AMCA and SU30MKI development flowing into lcamk1a: Few examples
1. GAAN based radar
2.Optical systems
3. Some form of stealth shaping
4. Wide area display (what will happen to the control stick that is in the center, move to side like MK2?)
5. More AA and AG weapons
6. More networkcentarity
7. Man/unmanned matching and AI, AI flying the unmanned for single seater (and the LCA itself,
a level of automation where the plane can literally fly and fight by itself - feature of later AMCA and 6th gen tech)
8. Better EW suites as time goes on

These would all be part of present effort, not spend any extra money except for planning and validation with MK1A.

[VishnuS]

1. GAAN based radar

Bhai, I believe you meant Gallium Nitride (GaN) radars! I don't think we have completed even ground level testing of Uttam GaN!! With higher cooling requirements, I doubt we have to build it ground up than using existing GaAs as base.

We could use GaAs Uttam (Gallium Arsenide) in MK1A by 2026. So going for GaN will delay indigenization of radar and we'd have to stick with ELTA-2052 for longer duration.

There are two problems, GaN is more powerful, I wonder if LCA can meet all its electrical requirements with GaN based radar! Plus, cooling issues of GaN radar is the major obstacle in its development.

With so many LCA MK1As order, can we ask GE to shift F404 engine production as well!??

[Manish Jain]

I agree with Prem that HAL will need 4th LCA line. So far, we have been talking about fulfilling IAF orders. If HAL gets an export order, they will definitely need to produce more than 24 LCAs per year.

I know, just a wish list right now but since Bhagwaan has been benevolent so far, why not state all the wishes.

[VishnuS]

I agree with Prem that HAL will need 4th LCA line. So far, we have been talking about fulfilling IAF orders. If HAL gets an export order, they will definitely need to produce more than 24 LCAs per year.

I know, just a wish list right now but since Bhagwaan has been benevolent so far, why not state all the wishes.

Bhai, 4th line is not coming, at least not until another 100 export orders!

For 183 LCA MK1A order, production will be caped at 24 unit/ year.

Last LCA MK1A will be delivered after a decade. We will probably see 1st Mass Production LCA MK2 and last LCA MK1A entering into production at the same time.

I wonder what would be the status of TEDBF at that time... Also, IAF interest in ORCA will also impact the no of LCA MK2. We will get a better picture after the first flight of TEDBF.

[Pratyush]

Why this obsession with assembly lines?

How many lines did the F4 had in USA, or the F 16, or the F35.

All the production was done with a single location. With subsystems being assembled at different locations by sub contractors.

Tejas doesn't need more assembly lines. It needs scaling up at the subcontractors plants.

That scaling up is a function of orders and compressed timelines.

[Rakesh]

A must read article....

IAF To Get 100 Additional Tejas Mk1A Fighter Jets — Implications
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/iaf-to- ... plications
28 August 2023

[bala]

^^ Great article indeed. So, effectively 1/2 the combat aircrafts would be of Indian origin. The progress on the Uttam radar (GaN) is very heartening ("we are now edging ahead in a critical domain which is set to revolutionize and rewrite the rules of aerial warfare"). All in all, the revolution happening on India's fighter aircraft is tremendous. I only hope the AMCA prototype takes flight a little earlier than planned 2028 (secret trials should be norm without the public needing to know). Now, if only, India were to make some progress on the aircraft engine side, the effort of indigenous aircraft would be complete and whole.

[ashishvikas]

A must read article....

IAF To Get 100 Additional Tejas Mk1A Fighter Jets — Implications
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/iaf-to- ... plications
28 August 2023

Numbers aren't correct for trainers. There's no extra 18 trainers - they're part of 40(8)+83(10) order only.

[Rakesh]

Numbers aren't correct for trainers. There's no extra 18 trainers - they're part of 40(8)+83(10) order only.

That is always the confusion for many. A number of folks believe that it is 83 Mk1As, when it is actually only 73 airframes. The remaining 10 are Mk1 trainers. Good catch, but just a minor issue in an otherwise excellent article.

[Barath]

Mk1 trainer configuration, but ought to be part of Mk1A squadron. And clubbed with the Mk1A order.

The confusion is natural until it is properly explained.

...it is actually only 73 airframes.

So we have Mk1 (IOC), Mk1 (FOC), Mk1A (Elta 2052, Uttam) and Mk1 two seat trainer configuration. Probably should have better nomenclature for them. The first three share airframes minus refueling and maintenance improvements.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/hukum2082/status/16 ... 13887?s=20 ---> The Tejas isn't the gold standard like the Rafale, but it is fully capable of getting the job done. Each iteration will get better at what it does with the UTTAM AESA , SPJ Pod, and an ever evolving indigenous A2A/A2G weapons suite. In a protracted war, Tejas will be tasked for every possible combat role from precision strike to mud moving CAS. It will pick the gauntlet with élan and prove its worth. Many will be lost; many will come back battered. We will patch them every single time and send them back to fight. Production lines will hum round the clock to churn new airframes as attrition warfare peaks. The ability to regenerate is priceless. That is the core advantage of having an indigenous fighter aircraft ecosystem. That is the radiance of the Tejas.

^^^ https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... 16483?s=20 ---> Striking the nail on its head. Continuous upgradation on the run with addition of future indigenous cutting edge weapons, huge numbers at cost effective budget. Tejas Mk1A is essentially "freedom to fight", free from geopolitical strings.

IAF banking on indigenous fighter aircraft to prevent numbers going below current level
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 5.ece/amp/
27 August 2023

Eight LCA trainer aircraft expected to be delivered by March 2024.