Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

[Prasad]

The larger AWACS might actually not happen at all unless a new in-production aircraft is identified.

[Kartik]

If a RFI is released, I hope this presents DRDO with their first real opportunity to export the Netra Mk1 AEW&C mounted on the EMB-145. Already in service with the IAF, the Netra Mk1 will definitely pip the Erieye or GlobalEye and the Boeing Wedgetail AEW&C on price.

The longer it takes for Indonesia to release this, the greater the opportunity for DRDO to offer the Netra Mk2 instead of the Mk1.

Indonesia cleared to source foreign loans for AEWC program

The Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has approved plans for the country to acquire two new airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, with loans sourced from a foreign lender.

The approval means that the Indonesian Ministry of Defence (MoD) can now formally begin the process of evaluating suitable aircraft types and sources for a foreign lender to fund the programme.

The Indonesian Air Force (Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara: TNI-AU) is currently not equipped with any form of AEW&C capabilities.

Documents provided to Janes indicate that the ceiling approved for the loan programme is USD800 million, and it should cover the delivery of two airframes, together with their associated components, service equipment, and training packages.

The AEW&C aircraft procurement is in addition to the list of 16 programmes for the year, for which permission to take on foreign loans has been granted by the MoF, provided the formal contracts are signed with the MoD by 31 December 2023.

[Mollick.R]

If a RFI is released, I hope this presents DRDO with their first real opportunity to export the Netra Mk1 AEW&C mounted on the EMB-145. Already in service with the IAF, the Netra Mk1 will definitely pip the Erieye or GlobalEye and the Boeing Wedgetail AEW&C on price.

The longer it takes for Indonesia to release this, the greater the opportunity for DRDO to offer the Netra Mk2 instead of the Mk1.

Indonesia cleared to source foreign loans for AEWC program

Well as much as love to see HAL, BDL, Brahmos Aerospace etc desi companies going global, exporting defense equipment & earning Dollah for the country..... I'm always very very skeptical about export of those equipment to Umaah countries.

Export versions will be different, that is assumed... but still........for such cases heart & mind doesn't comes on same page.....

Tejas to Malaysia (Ummah Country), AEWC to Indonesia (Ummah Country). All those makes me dhoti shiver due to very basic nature of Ummah Countries...

As some sikh guru said "If you cover your arm in oil and stick it in a sack of sesame seed, and if a Mus.... takes as many oaths as the number of sesame seeds stuck to your arm..................... still never trust him!"....

Those are equipment are major part of our own current defense setup.....

for Ummah birathers brotherhood of "Mslm" identity comes first..... Someone in their system will definitely pass on critical operational secrets of those equipment (purchased from a Kafir nation) to their Ummah Birather Porkistan. for some quick Dollah or even for free, as religious duty of a faithfull/ peace_ful.


Turkey again poked us on Kashmir issue at UN within one month of our generous help during their earth quake.

[fanne]

One way to use some of the unused capital budget this year is to announce 6 more EMB-145 and associated Netra electronics. Even though a decent portion of the amount goes toward export ( a very high amount stays in the house), the capability addition to IAF will be significant.

IAF will definitely have these fronts (and if 24-hour AWACS coverage is present it would be great, each of these are 200-300km wide fronts needing once awacs) for 2 front war - In order of priority-

1. JK, Punjab (main area) - There the main IAF-paf air battle will take place
2. Sikkim, Chicken Neck - PLAAF if it comes in play will come here
3. Gujarat airspace - major industry
4 a) Rajasthan -
5 - Leh/Ladhak
6- Arunachal
Other good to have area
7 - Uttarakhand, UP opposite Kailasha
8.Bombay high, perhaps in a&n, Karwar etc.

For 6 fronts we need 12 + 4 (backup, maintenance reserves, upgrade reserves)= At least 16 AWACS. We have 5, with A50 available at 50%, 6 Netra and 6 Netra 2 will get us there. We just need to get there fast.

[Rakesh]

A330 AWACS Plan Shelved, India To Go Narrow Body
https://www.livefistdefence.com/a330-aw ... rrow-body/
20 July 2023

[Cybaru]

Thank the gods! The dumbest tanker + AEW plan is dead!!!

[hgupta]

Thank the gods! The dumbest tanker + AEW plan is dead!!!

How is the A330 tanker & AEW the dumbest idea? I rate it as having better capabilities than the US version.

[drnayar]

Thank the gods! The dumbest tanker + AEW plan is dead!!!

would have been one heck of a juicy target ! ..too many eggs in one basket

[YashG]

but with just a few baskets being procured, where else to put the eggs.

[Bala Vignesh]

Thank the gods! The dumbest tanker + AEW plan is dead!!!

How is the A330 tanker & AEW the dumbest idea? I rate it as having better capabilities than the US version.

Really?? Which mission profile would it give priority to? There are some conflicting requirements for each of the profiles that cannot be compromised without compromise on mission objectives.

[Manish_P]

Hey if the Su 30 MKI can act as a mini AWACS and a buddy-buddy refueller, then why not this Airliner...

Might as well rig it to carry bombs and the Brahmos and voila - we have our own LR strategic bomber



Yes... recently the YouTube algorithm suggested 'The Pentagon Wars' scene clip for the nth time... and yes I watched it, for the nth time...

[Cybaru]

It is crucial to acknowledge the significant amount of money invested in protecting aircraft electronics from both strong radio waves and emp effects, commonly known as "hardening." Despite these efforts, it is astonishing that cell phones are still prohibited on airliners. Refueling a $100 million plane while the radar is on is not recommended, as high-powered ground-based radars (although non-ionizing) have been known to cause harm to birds (Dead birds around radar sites). When we are trying to create Directed energy weapons and want Uttam to have this function, do you really want this giant radar to be emitting while refueling?

Does anyone want to try Microwaving jet fuel? Really, what can go wrong?

Moreover, transitioning a plane from AWACS duty to refueling duty and back leaves unprotected the $500 million asset, crew, and the 4-5 CAP (wartime requirement) during refueling. Given the small size of internal tanks in fighter planes, it is probable that by the time five are refueled, the first one will require more fuel again. That begs the question, which duty will it really perform?

Even small fighter planes have radiation signs where the radar sits for safety reasons. The crew of the AEW has shielding to prevent hazards, but the pilot receiving fuel during refueling will be at risk. Maverick bana Pakora!

It is unclear how this dual-duty plane reached the RFI stage, but it is high time for the IAF headquarters to think through it before sending such things to the market. How did it really get this far? Really less said, the better...

[Cybaru]

Hey if the Su 30 MKI can act as a mini AWACS and a buddy-buddy refueller, then why not this Airliner...

Might as well rig it to carry bombs and the Brahmos and voila - we have our own LR strategic bomber



Yes... recently the YouTube algorithm suggested 'The Pentagon Wars' scene clip for the nth time... and yes I watched it, for the nth time...

The MKI is only refueling at that moment, which is a last-resort option when no other means are available. I believe that it does no other duty or carries any other payload when doing this. This allows the plane to be used to save another mission or asset if necessary.

What is the opportunity cost of using a fighter as a refueler in normal circumstances? We don't have enough fighters to begin with, and with 60-70% availability... A tanker-based fuel delivery costs 10X more than on the ground, a fighter based would be even more than with a tanker based...

We certainly need to practice it; we may need it, especially during peacetime for serving assets violating neighboring airspace and if they need any assistance during egress...

[Cybaru]

Thank the gods! The dumbest tanker + AEW plan is dead!!!

How is the A330 tanker & AEW the dumbest idea? I rate it as having better capabilities than the US version.

Kindly explain how it is better.

[Cybaru]

Enjoy searching here if you like... Here is an example possibly from one ship to another, which must be far away and still.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24408137/

Accidental exposure to electromagnetic fields from the radar of a naval ship: a descriptive study

Part of a crew on a Norwegian naval ship was exposed to the radar waves for approximately 7 min from an American destroyer during an incident at sea in August 2012. Information about the exposure was not given by the navy. This is a description of what happened with the crew on board after this event. 14 persons had been on the ship bridge or outside on the deck during the exposure and the rest of the crew had been inside the ship. 27 persons were examined at a hospital 6-8 months after the event, as they had developeda large number of symptoms from different organ systems. They were very worried about all types of possible adverse health effects due to the incident. All were examined by an occupational physician and anophthalmologist, by an interview, clinical examinations and blood tests at the hospital. The interview of the personnel revealed that they had not experienced any major heating during the episode. Their symptoms developed days or weeks after the radar exposure. They had no objective signs of adverse health effects at the examination related to the incident. Long-term health effect from the exposure is highly unlikely. The development of different symptoms after the incident was probably due to the fear of possible health consequences. Better routines for such incidents at sea should be developed to avoid this type of anxiety.

Radar with appropriate warning


Additionally, if someone were to ask IAF pilots, they could confirm that when the landing gear is deployed, the radars automatically shut down? This is done for safety reasons.

[Pratyush]

It was said that powering up of the Zaslon radar of the Mig 31 was a capital offence in the USSR.

It is also said, that the E3 while inflight refueling has to power down it's radar for fear of ignition of the tanker fuel.

[Cybaru]

It was said that powering up of the Zaslon radar of the Mig 31 was a capital offence in the USSR.

It is also said, that the E3 while inflight refueling has to power down it's radar for fear of ignition of the tanker fuel.

- try microwaving jet fuel to see the impact!

[Pratyush]

I am not going to conduct such an experiment.

I will just list the following temperatures from Google.

1) Flash point 38C
2) Auto ignition temperature 210C.

Both are well within the capability of a microwave.

[prashantsharma]

It is surprising if not outright shocking that DASR could come out with a requirement for a tanker cum AEW. Like others have pointed out, the contradictions and competing requirements are too obvious.
While a tanker-transport is a proven, established and logical combo, it is hard to understand how a tanker-AEW would be operationally used, let alone be technically or economically feasible.

[Rakesh]

Well said Cybaru. See this post with regards to the AEW + Tanker combo. Some of these officers do not live in reality.

Navy’s ‘Unrealistic’ Expectations for Submarine Tender Will Have Operational Ramifications
https://thewire.in/security/indian-navy ... ifications
17 Aug 2022

“It is astonishing that after 14 years of deliberation by the IN and the MoD, the RfP for the SSKs incorporates unreal QRs and restrictive conditions for their manufacture,” said a retired three-star IN officer. It displays a collective lack of pragmatism and realism by both the Navy and the MoD, he added, declining to be identified.

Baranov’s blunt assessment of the IN’s proposed SSK’s ambitious design ironically echoed late defence minister Manohar Parrikar’s observations in 2015, when he jokingly, but accurately defined this perverse penchant as ‘QR Overreach*’ and one that plagued all three services. At a public function in New Delhi, with then Army Chief General Bikram Singh by his side, Parrikar had declared that at times the Indian military’s QR’s for equipment appeared to be straight out of “Marvel comic books”. The technologies it demanded were “absurd, unrealistic” and simply non-existent, Parrikar further elaborated much to General Singh’s chagrin.

[Rakesh]

Additionally, if someone were to ask IAF pilots, they could confirm that when the landing gear is deployed, the radars automatically shut down? This is done for safety reasons.

See this Cybaru....

Former fighter pilots developing aggressive cancers: Is radar to blame?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poli ... r-to-blame
19 August 2019

[hgupta]

How is the A330 tanker & AEW the dumbest idea? I rate it as having better capabilities than the US version.

Kindly explain how it is better.

The wedgetail is smaller and has less loitering time.

The tanker version has more space for fuel and it doesn’t have that problem that the US’s newest tanker version have.

To clear up any confusion I’m not talking about the hybrid version of AWACs serving as a tanker. I’m talking about the airframe being used for AWACs and tanker roles separately. The reason being is you get large scale commonality of parts which makes maintenance easier.

[Cybaru]

IMO, when flying away from your base, the amount of time you spend loitering is a major consideration. You need to carry both fuel and people, and maintain long operations. However, if you're flying over your home territory, refueling on the ground and changing crew is much easier. It's best to look for a vehicle that can carry up to 8 operators and has more than 10 hours of airtime. This will also allow you to have more of the same assets. For example, one option costs 100 million A321, while another costs 250 million A330.

[hgupta]

IMO, when flying away from your base, the amount of time you spend loitering is a major consideration. You need to carry both fuel and people, and maintain long operations. However, if you're flying over your home territory, refueling on the ground and changing crew is much easier. It's best to look for a vehicle that can carry up to 8 operators and has more than 10 hours of airtime. This will also allow you to have more of the same assets. For example, one option costs 100 million A321, while another costs 250 million A330.

Well IAF is not ordering in large numbers so you might as well go for the higher priced model that will give you more staying power.

[Pratyush]

The A 319 has a range of 6900 kms. That easily implies an endurance of 10 hours at 300 km from base without inflight refueling.

The aircraft at that time on station is limited by crew endurance and not fuel supply.

[hgupta]

The A 319 has a range of 6900 kms. That easily implies an endurance of 10 hours at 300 km from base without inflight refueling.

The aircraft at that time on station is limited by crew endurance and not fuel supply.

And crew endurance could be managed with rotations and the inclusion of sleeping berths aboard the plane if you have the space for it. By the way the range is for one way flight or a circular flight but not a radius range.

If you are only getting 6 frames, A330 makes better sense. But if you are getting in excess of 20+ airframes, then I would understand going in for A320/319 airframes.

[Pratyush]

We are not getting the A330, we are getting A319. That too, without the ability to receive airborne fuel.

[hgupta]

We are not getting the A330, we are getting A319. That too, without the ability to receive airborne fuel.

And that is something I do not agree with. It only makes sense if we can get more A319s to have at least 20+ airframe to ensure 24/7 year round coverage.

[Manish_P]

Radar power (detection range) will also determine how far from the base and/or how close to the border the AEW aircrafts need to be...

[konaseema]

For the sake of comparison, the P-8I is based on single aisle Boeing 737 which is similar to the Airbus A320 family. Having them in adequate numbers will be the key.

[Cybaru]

For the sake of comparison, the P-8I is based on single aisle Boeing 737 which is similar to the Airbus A320 family. Having them in adequate numbers will be the key.

From youtube videos of interviews with P8I drivers, it seems that it can do the work of 3-5 P3 Orions..

But getting back to AEW, how does IAF operate them? Do they refuel Netra/Phalcon multiple times? We have ground-based radars to cover our own airspace, and enemy too dependent on the height they are placed at. We use AEW to peek further; how many do we need? We have 3-5 phalcons, 3 Netras, and 6 A319-based Netras.

[konaseema]

For the sake of comparison, the P-8I is based on single aisle Boeing 737 which is similar to the Airbus A320 family. Having them in adequate numbers will be the key.

From youtube videos of interviews with P8I drivers, it seems that it can do the work of 3-5 P3 Orions..

But getting back to AEW, how does IAF operate them? Do they refuel Netra/Phalcon multiple times? We have ground-based radars to cover our own airspace, and enemy too dependent on the height they are placed at. We use AEW to peek further; how many do we need? We have 3-5 phalcons, 3 Netras, and 6 A319-based Netras.

To me it depends on a few factors, such as, Do we need to do 24*7 surveillance on both LOC & LAC? Do we need surveillance on our International border with Pakistan, Myanmar, Nepal & Bhutan? Essentially where do we want our Air based surveillance to be and how long we need them in a day. The other factor is, how are going to use MALE / HALE UAV's compared to AEW&C aircrafts. Where is the overlap of capabilities between such platforms and where they are unique will eventually determine the number of Netra 1 & Netra 2 platforms. I think with the news of our forces planning to induct 97 odd Tapas MALE UAVs will determine if IAF will go for more of the Netra 1 & Netra 2 platforms.

[Cybaru]

I think with the news of our forces planning to induct 97 odd Tapas MALE UAVs will determine if IAF will go for more of the Netra 1 & Netra 2 platforms.

There is no overlap at the moment between Tapas and Netras, one is for observation of ground-based movements and the other is for air-based assets primarily.

[Rakesh]

Rakhwale: Netra AWACS अब ऐसे बताएगा Pakistan-China के फाइटर जेट कब इंडिया की तरफ आ रहे हैं

[mody]

We are not getting the A330, we are getting A319. That too, without the ability to receive airborne fuel.

IAF will be getting the A321 and not the A319. The A321 is much bigger and has a much higher range or endurance. The price per aircraft was fairly low, as it was bought from Air India, prior to it being sold off to the Tatas. This was the best way forward.
Once these 6 are inducted, the IAF will have 3 Phalcon's, 3 Netra (the test bed will not be required then) and 6 Netra-II. This should be fairly sufficient.
IAF and DRDO can then start planning for a replacement/upgrade of the Phalcon's as and when required.
Plus in addition to the AWACS, IAF will induct a large number of UAVs like the TAPAS-BH, which will also cater to some of the surveillance requirements, not to mention the potential addition of ISTARs type aircraft.

[Bala Vignesh]

Actually the 321 has lower range with respect to 319 due to its higher overall weight. But given that the aircraft will primarily have a regional role for us, the range and endurance will be more than sufficient for our needs.

[AkshaySG]

For the older versions which we are getting from Air India (CEO) the 321 has a lower range than 319

The newer versions (Neo) have better ranges for A321 as opposed to 319.

If the conversion is successful and meets IAF needs it shouldn't be difficult to find more for cheap as there will be 1000+ A320s flying in India pretty soon and airlines like Indigo sell a lot of airframes after using them for 5-6 years

[Rakesh]

The author of the tweet got the numbers wrong and he was corrected. But check out the video...

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/Kunal_Biswas707/sta ... 67117?s=20 ---> Rare look at Indian Air Force EL/W-2090 Phalcon AEW&C based on IL-76. With 5 - 10 systems in inventory ordered between 2004 - 2016. But IL-76 platform is plagued by maintenance issues and these AEW&C deserve upgrade of platform like Airbus A330, which will also feature DRDO AEW&C.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 32914?s=20 ---> Only three Phalcons in inventory.

[KSingh]

https://x.com/ksingh_1469/status/170310 ... L0BRyMQdjg

[putnanja]

IAF looking for 6 more Netra Mk-I ...

IAF plans to buy 6 more indigenous 'Netra-I eyes in the sky' surveillance planes

"Two of the Netra AEW&C surveillance aircraft also known as the ‘eyes in the sky’ are already in the Air Force after being developed by the DRDO. There is now a plan to build six more of these aircraft for which groundwork has already started," Indian Air Force officials told ANI.

"The DRDO and our officials have already started looking for sources to acquire the Embraer ERJ-145 aircraft to modify them for carrying the radar on it after modification," officials added.
...