Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 26 Sep 2023 09:30

oh, please. Have BSF/CRPF place an order for 10,000 ATAGS and see how IA would quickly find how much they love ATAGS...

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 26 Sep 2023 10:03

Looks like ATAGS order is around the corner....this news is like last few gasp for air before the contract goes out of their hand.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 26 Sep 2023 11:19

sanjayc wrote: ↑25 Sep 2023 19:33
Pratyush wrote: ↑25 Sep 2023 16:41 The army has just killed the ATAGS.

They are now saying that they are going to procure 1200 new and more advanced guns. In stead of ATAGS.

Well done army, always run after a bird in the bush. Ignoring a bird in hand.

https://youtu.be/uqIBptAgX8Y?si=S9zNOT580c7lIBQ2
Modi needs to overrule the generals and thrust ATAGS down their throats. They won't learn otherwise and keep using these tricks to keep the army nude. It is time to pick up the stick. Their behavior is bordering on deliberate subversion of India. I guarantee you the new "advanced and versatile" gun won't be inducted either, as generals will after 20 years of trials demand "even more advanced and even more versatile" gun.

Thats the only solution

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Sep 2023 12:25

ashthor wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023 10:03 Looks like ATAGS order is around the corner....this news is like last few gasp for air before the contract goes out of their hand.

Have you forgotten Arjun?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Sep 2023 12:44

Modi is not going to force anything down the armies throat.

Not until after the 2024 elections.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 26 Sep 2023 13:59

Kersi wrote: ↑25 Sep 2023 12:15
Mollick.R wrote: ↑25 Sep 2023 09:42 Army looking for lighter, versatile Made in India
...
"For the towed mainstay, we are looking at a gun that is lighter than the ATAGs. It will also be technically more advanced and versatile.]
...
It means
We have just read the brochure of a super-uber artillery gun made by XXXX in YYYY country and we wish to buy it

And partly M777 experience influence?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Sep 2023 14:10

The most stupid part of the Manu Pabby article.

More accurate gun?

It seems that the Indian army doesn't understand, that for an unguided shell. The accuracy of the gun is a % of range.

A GPS / Lazer guided/ other terminally guided shell doesn't care that much for the gun that fires the shell.

mody · Post by **mody** » 26 Sep 2023 19:03

Manu Pabby is always the go to guy to peddle all kinds of dirt on indigenous weapons systems. The modus operandi is always the same. Some unnamed sources will be quoted.

Remember the hit job on the QRSAM. Wonder why the defence forces or the MoD do not blacklist such journalists.

bala · Post by **bala** » 27 Sep 2023 09:31

This discussions by Lt Gen on a topic called "will overhauling DRDO ensure atmanirbharat" shows how disconnected the User (army), the R&D (DRDO) and producer (which is some PSU) are in the Indian context. The User is solely responsible for the requirements (with a good business justification) for the product. DRDO is entrusted with the R&D and some PSU gets the transfer of the product how&why&process. The User ensures that the product is performing the way the requirements were spelt out. Now this feedback is crucial and could yield version 1, 2, 3 etc. Artillery was headed by Lt. Gen P. R. Shankar. The politicos can only provide some direction. Finally it comes down to the Babu in charge, who somehow squirms out from any responsibility. Gaps, misunderstanding, capability development, quality, numbers for procurement, etc, etc cannot be allowed to drag on forever. Someone needs to put their foot down, come up with a compromise that is workable. Integration, funding, partnership, adequate support system, academia all of them need to be synched up properly. The babu must be running pillar to post to get this right.

ISRO has done it all! with constrained resources and budgets. ISRO is focussed on mission mode. They are the user, R&D and producer all roled in one. Somehow the 3 silos in defence are causing all the friction, one says something, the other creates something and producer delivers a product. In the end the user is unhappy with the product with some grouse or other. The defence babu is "why me worry".

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Sep 2023 09:37

Gen. Shankar's initiative is responsible for both Dhanush 45 and ATAGS.

It was he who changed the procedure of the army releasing GSQR and then the industry running behind it.

He told the industry to come up with product. The GSQR will be issued once the product is in hand.

Dhanush 45 and ATAGS are a result of this change.

That shows that the system is capable of reforms and high-performance. Provided vested interests can be kept in check.

bala · Post by **bala** » 27 Sep 2023 09:54

Pratyush, please go through YT above and understand what the Lt. Gen are saying. DRDO has had great success in missiles, navy, and much more. The issue is the army products. They want some group within to do some R&D besides DRDO. Navy has its own. Maybe now all 3 have their own design groups. Yes, Shankar has done great things to get artillery on a success path. The issues are about integrations, synching together, working together, getting a "can do it ourselves" attitude, refining and improving with each iteration and much more. The babus are going scott free in this melee.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Sep 2023 10:41

I don't blame the Babus for the mess the army finds itself.

The Babu is not responsible for 5 seperate SQR for Arjun over a period of 20 years. And 6th after the damm thing is in service.

The Babu is not responsible for the small arms caliber confusion of the army.

The Babu is not responsible for post development 15 ton ATAGS. When the army had not even released the GSQR for it's development.

For all this the army is responsible.

Babu can be blamed for a lot of things. But they should not be blamed for the army mucking up it's future war fighting potential. That's on the army itself.

The worst part, the Army is remarkably forward thinking in some areas. But even there, they cannot go beyond khadi gram udyog mindset.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 27 Sep 2023 22:43

Neat

Looking forward to a fully indigenous system in future

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Sep 2023 07:44

Brazil seems to be interested in ATAGS too, soon the IA will be the only one who doesnt own it while the entire world owns it

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Sep 2023 07:58

All armies in the world understand the concept of Axel Load.

But when it comes to the ATAGS, the Indian army doesn't.

They also don't understand that the mount of the gun is so robust, that it can also accept ERCA barrel.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Sep 2023 09:06

I think Manu Pubby was fed horse manure and he wrote it for his roz ki roti.*
ATAGS is great and the LSP units have performed well.

* Due to freedom of the press he won't reveal his trudy sources.
But they will get to pay.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 28 Sep 2023 10:06

Pratyush wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023 12:25
ashthor wrote: ↑26 Sep 2023 10:03 Looks like ATAGS order is around the corner....this news is like last few gasp for air before the contract goes out of their hand.
Have you forgotten Arjun?

Sir that was then....lets hope things have changed

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 28 Sep 2023 10:14

unless the commissionkhors in MoD and their appendices in defence procurement are not completely dismantled. But the problem of commissionkhors inside MoD is that these are career IAS officers - they have become habitual of making money in the departments they are posted. They are good at it. You cannot easily make them unlearn that in MoD they cant make commissions, when all their peers in other departments are making it.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Sep 2023 11:52

If the procurement process is 10 to 20 years long. Then who exactly is making money from procurements?

This is something that needs to be asked?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Sep 2023 11:54

ashthor wrote: ↑28 Sep 2023 10:06
Sir that was then....lets hope things have changed

The weight of ATAGS is 18 tons. The army is insisting on 15 tons.

That too when Army had men embedded in the ATAGS development teams.

Can you think why that is?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 28 Sep 2023 14:28

Why is an 18 ton gun a problem? Any bridge that can take a 15 ton gun will also take an 18 ton gun. No air mobility advantage is also there. A c17 will take two guns or a gun and a FAT.

ATAGs with 2 load bearing axles will be more mobile crosscountry than the single axle 15 ton gun being proposed. In the Russia conflict, its clear that guns must be high mobility. So the only improvement I can think of is an larger engine so it can move faster, semi independently, and possibly avoid acquisition of larger FATs. But that is likely to increase the weight of the gun, not decrease it!

If counter battery fire is coming in within 2-3 minutes, ideally, the gun should manage 30kmph cross country to scoot out of the way!

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 28 Sep 2023 15:41

Pratyush wrote: ↑28 Sep 2023 11:52 If the procurement process is 10 to 20 years long. Then who exactly is making money from procurements?

This is something that needs to be asked?

Pratyush ji, it's not only one item which is being 'procured'.

The gravy train might be slow... but it is also very long. And it has multiple stops to get replenished. Some are small stations, some are huge junctions.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 28 Sep 2023 17:42

One advantage of ATAGS is that, because of its longer range, its somewhat immune to counter-battery fire because the enemy cannot hit us at that range.

ATAGS completed a grueling series of mobility trials in all sorts of terrain.

The IA playing truant should be viewed with serious concern by the RM and appropriate punitive action taken. And if any of our journos have b@lls, they should rake the IA Chief (present or past) over the coals for their shoddy war-preparation

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 28 Sep 2023 18:19

https://x.com/BharatShaktiBSI/status/17 ... 87381?s=20 ---> On Sept 28th, the Regiment of Artillery celebrates its Raising Day. In this interview, we track artillery modernisation that would decisively affect the battleworthiness. @skchatts talks Lt Gen Adosh Kumar, DG of Artillery

Artillery Modernisation: DG Artillery Speaks

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 28 Sep 2023 18:21

I am curious as to why Indian firms can’t offer the same , ah, inducements in the form of money, wine, men, women as the foreign manufacturers do? Even after passing that cost down an Indian system still turns out to be cheaper.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 28 Sep 2023 19:13

Tanaji wrote: ↑28 Sep 2023 18:21 I am curious as to why Indian firms can’t offer the same , ah, inducements in the form of money, wine, men, women as the foreign manufacturers do? Even after passing that cost down an Indian system still turns out to be cheaper.

Lobbied PR/Green Cards and fully paid scholarships in foreign institutes for the kids. The work permits will be sponsored by the associated companies. Most of the high level officials in all forms of administration including military have their kids settled outside.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Sep 2023 20:00

Not ATAGS, Vajra or Dhanush. A new gun will be the mainstay of Indian Artillery
https://theprint.in/defence/not-atags-v ... y/1781864/

Published 28 September, 2023 06:45 pm

ThePrint had first reported in December last year that the Indian Army issued a fresh Request for Information (RFI) to acquire a 155mm/52 calibre TGS that had opened up a new avenue for induction of an Israeli gun that the Army was keen on.

The gun in question was the Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System (ATHOS), built by Israeli firm Elbit, which was in the reckoning for a mega contract from the Indian Army for over a decade.

The firm, which has a tie-up with the Adani Group now, had previously offered to build the gun in India through partnership with the erstwhile Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) but the programme could not see the light of day

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Sep 2023 20:05

Lt Gen Adosh Kumar, DG Artillery On Modernisation of Regiments of Artillery In Indian Army

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 28 Sep 2023 20:25

Pratyush wrote: ↑28 Sep 2023 11:52 If the procurement process is 10 to 20 years long. Then who exactly is making money from procurements?

This is something that needs to be asked?

Rule is whatever get bought while you're at desk - you're entitled to make 5-30% on it, given how many players in chain. So if you sanction a flyover in your tenure, you could make 5%, local MLA, MP another some, then the party in state, then some for others in department etc.

So doesnt matter when the purchase process started, you will pass the cheque only when you get your commission - that's how it works in all other departments too - same in MoD.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 28 Sep 2023 21:12

Pratyush wrote: ↑28 Sep 2023 20:00 Not ATAGS, Vajra or Dhanush. A new gun will be the mainstay of Indian Artillery
https://theprint.in/defence/not-atags-v ... y/1781864/

Published 28 September, 2023 06:45 pm

...
The firm, which has a tie-up with the Adani Group now, had previously offered to build the gun in India through partnership with the erstwhile Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) but the programme could not see the light of day

It true, then no chance of any orders till post elections. GoI will not want another Ambani-Adani campaign by the Prince.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 28 Sep 2023 22:00

Army moves over Rs 6,500 cr deal to Defence Ministry for procurement of 400 howitzers from 'desi' firms
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 928215102/
28 Sept 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Sep 2023 22:11

So it looks like the services are doing a desi-for-phoren-maal negotiation with the MoD.

Place order of intent for desi artillery (^^^ post above), but keep alive the order of phoren artillery (i.e. ATHOS ?).

Same scenario is being played out in the IAF ---> order of intent for 100 Tejas Mk1A, but keep alive the order of 114 MRFA.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Sep 2023 22:26

If the weight is really the issue (i.e. ATAGS being 18 tons versus ATHOS being 15 tons), then there is this offering from Kalyani....

Image Source: https://www.kssl.in/our-business-artillery

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Sep 2023 22:30

https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/17 ... 67933?s=20 ---> Atmanirbharta (

) in Artillery

India's Kalyani Strategic Systems' Made in India various artillery pieces. Now its up to Army & Government.

1) ATAGS 155/52 Towed Gun
2) MArG 155/39 Truck Mounted
3) Garuda 105/37 Mobile Gun 4×4
4) Bharat-52 155/52 Towed Gun
5) Bharat ULH 155/52 Lift off Gun
6) MGS 155/52 Truck Mounted

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Sep 2023 22:38

The army has made its mind about the Athos.

Regardless of what products are available in India. Designed by Indian vendors. They will not be looked at.

It's Athos.

If not Athos. Then, they will say we will take Dhanush. As we already have it.

But that will be the limit of accomodation shown by the army.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Sep 2023 22:48

No amount of overhauling the DRDO will work as long as Military procurement and requirements are directed toward imports.

Import preference is a disease afflicting the Indian military.

bala wrote: ↑27 Sep 2023 09:31 This discussions by Lt Gen on a topic called "will overhauling DRDO ensure atmanirbharat" shows how disconnected the User (army), the R&D (DRDO) and producer (which is some PSU) are in the Indian context. The User is solely responsible for the requirements (with a good business justification) for the product. DRDO is entrusted with the R&D and some PSU gets the transfer of the product how&why&process. The User ensures that the product is performing the way the requirements were spelt out. Now this feedback is crucial and could yield version 1, 2, 3 etc. Artillery was headed by Lt. Gen P. R. Shankar. The politicos can only provide some direction. Finally it comes down to the Babu in charge, who somehow squirms out from any responsibility. Gaps, misunderstanding, capability development, quality, numbers for procurement, etc, etc cannot be allowed to drag on forever. Someone needs to put their foot down, come up with a compromise that is workable. Integration, funding, partnership, adequate support system, academia all of them need to be synched up properly. The babu must be running pillar to post to get this right.

ISRO has done it all! with constrained resources and budgets. ISRO is focussed on mission mode. They are the user, R&D and producer all roled in one. Somehow the 3 silos in defence are causing all the friction, one says something, the other creates something and producer delivers a product. In the end the user is unhappy with the product with some grouse or other. The defence babu is "why me worry".

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 29 Sep 2023 00:17

Rakesh wrote: ↑28 Sep 2023 20:05 Lt Gen Adosh Kumar, DG Artillery On Modernisation of Regiments of Artillery In Indian Army

Good - a name & a face. He is the man responsible for the terrible mess our artillery is in. He has the nerve to talk about modernization

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Sep 2023 01:35

milindc wrote: ↑28 Sep 2023 22:00 Army moves over Rs 6,500 cr deal to Defence Ministry for procurement of 400 howitzers from 'desi' firms
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 928215102/
28 Sept 2023

This one says 400 Towed gun Systems along with tractors and 307 ATAGS

Somewhere Sarang was at 300 guns. How many more 130mm guns are in IA inventory?

What are Dhanush orders? Somehow this looks like the weak spot and with 52 caliber guns available this is will go by wayside.

The M-777 was at 145 guns and Modiji visit they signed up for reviving the BAE line with 52 caliber.

K-9 is 100+ 100+ 100 more

Adani new ammo plant in the UP defense corridor is a huge one. Some 2M rounds of all sorts.

astal · Post by **astal** » 29 Sep 2023 01:41

Prem Kumar wrote: ↑29 Sep 2023 00:17 Good - a name & a face. He is the man responsible for the terrible mess our artillery is in. He has the nerve to talk about modernization

Prem Kumar ji,
There is a large group of people responsible for the mess we are in with respect to artillery. Since General Adosh Kumar is currently in charge I have a few questions for him and the decision makers wrt Artillery procurement for the Indian Army.

1. Exactly what capabilities will not available due to ATAGS having 3 tons more weight. Are there no India alternatives like Bharat 52?
2. If ATAGS is too heavy, why spend multiple years testing it before complaining about its weight and electric drive.
3. Why not order and use ATAGS for 50-70-80% of the requirement and ask for iterative improvements? The tendering to contract process for IA takes 4-5 years or more.
4. Why do we always want the best solution as opposed to buying what is available?

Atmanirbhar means designed, developed and manufactured in India with Indian manufacturing technology. Artillery guns are an emotional subject as Indians lost many battles to the Europeans and Turkish due to lack of fire power.

All money paid to design, develop and manufacture weapons in India, except for imported raw material has a strong salutary multiplier effect which improves the economy and allows us to invest more in defense and encourages local R and D.

Every rupee paid to import weapons results in a dead weight loss in terms of salaries paid abroad, creates dependance on foreign powers and compromises sovereignty and actually results in investments that make our own weapons obsolete.

bala · Post by **bala** » 29 Sep 2023 02:08

ramana wrote:Import preference is a disease afflicting the Indian military.

The logjam must be broken by Mantriji Rajnath Singh and the Defence Babus. Import pasand implies foreign trips, wine and dine, some trinkets, maybe favorable positioning for their offsprings and maybe maybe some underhand money exchange. With Atmanirbharta all this evaporates. Maybe GoB can provide some alternates, trips to resorts within India/Bharat, small spot bonus or babu can come up with something.