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ramana wrote:Import preference is a disease afflicting the Indian military.
The logjam must be broken by Mantriji Rajnath Singh and the Defence Babus. Import pasand implies foreign trips, wine and dine, some trinkets, maybe favorable positioning for their offsprings and maybe maybe some underhand money exchange. With Atmanirbharta all this evaporates. Maybe GoB can provide some alternates, trips to resorts within India/Bharat, small spot bonus or babu can come up with something.
Sadly , kadi ninda Singh has been a let down. We lost a great visionary like Manohar Parikar. Hopefully next term we will see a Gadkari or a new face like Jaishankar get better results. This whole Atags saga has left me disappointed in the institution I had the most respect for and unfit to join
Gadkari will be even bigger letdown. He will turn the Army into a Green Army that plays with pichkari guns over polluting guns. What we need is someone from the Military itself. Former Air Chief Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria is a good choice.
Rajnath Singh has been a pretty *positive* surprise to me - he got the CDS done, he is getting theaterization done, he has gotten Agniveer done, he has gotten the positive indigenization list going, Tejas has gotten increasing orders, OFB has been corporatized, more private players are involved in defence now. Yes, he is no MP, but he has delivered structural changes quietly.
Like we blame politicians and babus when things go wrong, we need to give credit when things go right too...
The forces come up with lot of wishes - nuke powered & EMALS carriers, Single Engine Fighter ... They have died a quiet death. I hope once this new thing gets to the AON stage, it's taken so long that it'd get buried quietly.
srin wrote: ↑29 Sep 2023 09:51
Rajnath Singh has been a pretty *positive* surprise to me - he got the CDS done, he is getting theaterization done, he has gotten Agniveer done, he has gotten the positive indigenization list going, Tejas has gotten increasing orders, OFB has been corporatized, more private players are involved in defence now. Yes, he is no MP, but he has delivered structural changes quietly.
DG-Artillery & DGMF are bad faith actors. Driven by inertia, corruption, lack of vision & a lack of alignment with GOI's Atmanirbharta
Modi cannot do his usual scalpel thing of snipping a bit here and snipping a bit there and hope that people who have risen up in this muck will suddenly change their ways. He needs to bring out the hammer.
The Indian Army version of the new gun vs ATAGS, Dhanush, Vajra. BharatForge, Athos and other topics are discussed by Lt. Gen P. R. Shankar's take in this YT:
Prem Kumar wrote: ↑29 Sep 2023 18:26
DG-Artillery & DGMF are bad faith actors. Driven by inertia, corruption, lack of vision & a lack of alignment with GOI's Atmanirbharta
Modi cannot do his usual scalpel thing of snipping a bit here and snipping a bit there and hope that people who have risen up in this muck will suddenly change their ways. He needs to bring out the hammer.
Let us hope for the country's sake that he does
Don't make drastic accusations.
It could be system inertia and disbelief that DRDO and the Indian industry will deliver.
IAF too was like that with MRFA.
Give some time as the Ukraine War is sucking up not only arty but ammo systems.
Now happy with Mk2 etc.
Another factor is exporters wanted the Indian market but with the Ukraine War that's no longer the case.
So ATAGS weighs 22 tonnes (or 22 short tons?), not 18. The only thing to compare it with is the Turkish panter, which weighs around 20 tonnes. And the plan was to induct 300, and later batches would be upgraded versions.
Given the 'learnings' from the Russian conflict, I think we need at least some improvements on the mobility side. If we can get an uprated engine that can allow the gun to move faster by itself cross country and allow use of smaller/existing trucks as FATs, that would be a much more survivable and versatile product.
sudeepj wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023 01:50
So ATAGS weighs 22 tonnes (or 22 short tons?), not 18. The only thing to compare it with is the Turkish panter, which weighs around 20 tonnes. And the plan was to induct 300, and later batches would be upgraded versions.
I found on twitter (one page) of an Indian Army RFI on a future artillery gun. The Army uses the term Ton (page 2, under the mobility sub-section, last sentence). But that only increases the ambiguity
So the Indian Army wants a 155mm towed artillery gun to weigh preferably less than 15 Tons. So lets do the conversion using the above post or you can use this link ---> https://www.google.com/search?q=online+ ... nt=gws-wiz
If the Indian Army uses the Metric Tonne measurement system
15 Metric Tonne = 16.53 US Ton = 14.76 Imperial Ton
If the Indian Army uses the US Ton measurement system
15 US Ton = 13.60 Metric Tonne = 13.39 Imperial Ton
If the Indian Army uses the Imperial Ton measurement system
15 Imperial Ton = 16.80 US Ton = 15.24 Metric Tonne
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the Indian Army uses the Metric Tonne measurement system. Ramana-ji please confirm. Thus when the RFI below states 15 tons, it very well likely means 15 Metric Tonnes, so basically 15 Tons = 15 Metric Tonnes.
The gun weighs 20 tonnes, nearly 70 per cent over its 12-tonne weight limit. The weight restrictions are because most bridges in the mountainous forward areas are designed to bear 18-tonne loads. On the plains, too, the added weight can lead to mobility issues because the army's 6x6 artillery towing trucks are designed for 12-tonne guns. Inducting ATAGS in its present form would mean more investments in heavier trucks. The imported towed artillery pieces, they point out, weigh only 15 tonnes.
The developers say they plan to shave two more tonnes off the gun to bring its weight down to 18 tonnes.
More than five years since this article was published, a number of articles have been using the number 18 to illustrate the present weight of the gun.
sudeepj wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023 01:50
So ATAGS weighs 22 tonnes (or 22 short tons?), not 18. The only thing to compare it with is the Turkish panter, which weighs around 20 tonnes. And the plan was to induct 300, and later batches would be upgraded versions.
Given the 'learnings' from the Russian conflict, I think we need at least some improvements on the mobility side. If we can get an uprated engine that can allow the gun to move faster by itself cross country and allow use of smaller/existing trucks as FATs, that would be a much more survivable and versatile product.
It's always something new to prevent induction no? Why can't they induction these along Western border?
..On the plains, too, the added weight can lead to mobility issues because the army's 6x6 artillery towing trucks are designed for 12-tonne guns. Inducting ATAGS in its present form would mean more investments in heavier trucks...
So instead of doing the easier thing of getting more powerful engined trucks ('heavier') they want to do the much harder thing of reducing the weight of the gun.
1) How difficult it is to procure new gun towing vehicles.
Because the existing vehicles in service must be approaching the end of service life.
So new gun towing vehicles will have to be procured anyway.
2) if the ATAGS is so heavy that it cannot be used on the mountains. Then what was the use of all the mountain mobility trials that the damn thing passed?
M777 uses titanium and it is being made in Lucknow, weighs 4 T. If we have the capability for titanium then perhaps ATAGS can use/try titanium and lower the weight penalty. Don't know the challenges because titanium is difficult to manufacture. ATAGS is targeted for the plains not mountains.
bala wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023 10:03
M777 uses titanium and it is being made in Lucknow, weighs 4 T. If we have the capability for titanium then perhaps ATAGS can use/try titanium and lower the weight penalty. Don't know the challenges because titanium is difficult to manufacture. ATAGS is targeted for the plains not mountains.
M777 costs 5 million dollars each, also it cannot be used for sustained firing. ATAGS will be priced around 2 million dollars each. Using Titanium will cause a substantial increase in cost.
Key Points on artillery acquisition by Lt Gen Shankar
- Key Point 1 - Indian artillery acquisition and preparedness status were in pits during 2004-2010 period. He gives many examples of how things were deliberately allowed to go bad and how 'dalals' (deal brokers) used to roam about the power corridors and corruption ruined everything.
My opinion:
- Those of us who're old enough to remember the repeated 155/45 trials (unprecedented 3 times) also know that each time, Bofors topped the charts, but induction was not done because the name Bofors was anathema to one political family.
- Not to mention how the Bhim SP project was killed through dubious means.
- Every vendor was blacklisted for one reason or the other through shenanigans of brokers and powers-that-be at the top.
- Indian modernization suffered a great deal because of corruption.
---
- Key Point 2 - ATAGS was developed in consultation between IA and the DRDO; IA asked DRDO to see if they can come up with a new gun.
- Very important:
(a) Target weight was 12 tons
(b) The weight now stands at 22 tons (I know news reports talk about 18 tons, so need more clarity here).
(c) In his words, they could not keep the weight down.
(d) And from the beginning, the quantity proposed by the army was 300 units for ATAGS.
My Opinion:
- We should be happy that IA is ordering a gun which is otherwise on the heavier side as per their specification.
- We've always lamented that 'best is the enemy of good' syndrome inflicts our Services.
- In this case, we've actually bucked this propensity to weight for a product which meets all the requirements.
----
Key Point 3 - ATAGS will be used in plains while 'lighter systems' like Dhanush and original Bofors will be shifted to mountains.
- Lt General Shankar is very clear that NO IMPORTS are happening.
- The TGS will come from domestic stables.
- Plus, he says we can build the whole of K-9/Vajra or M-777 in India now, if required (and subject to contract terms)
--------
Key Point 4 - India has more artillery shell production capacity than whole of Europe combined. Even though the Nalanda factory is not working to its full capacity, yet it is meeting the requirements of the army.
--------
- In my opinion, if you need to understand Indian artillery modernization status, you need to take a holistic view after considering all the programs running in parallel to fill various segments.
- For 155mm segment, we need to consider the numbers happening under Sharang upgrade, Dhanush production & induction, and now ATAGS.
- We need to sort out production issues of Dhanush and see if can be produced and inducted faster.
The dalals or whoever have been trying to get the Athos into IA for nearly a decade. They have been unsuccessful until now for various reasons as K9 or Dhanush were superior products. The current requirements seem to now have been tailor made for an Athos induction.
With due respect Gen. Shankar is not in charge of induction. Certain interests will raise the usual weight card to ensure ATAGS is not inducted beyond token numbers. We also need to be sure when they compare weight figures it is like for like. For example what is included in an ATAGS weight of 18/20/22 tons? When others come in at 18 tons as is the same equipment included?
1. Lt Gen Shankar retired in 2016, 7 years ago. May be the ATAGs was 20 tonnes when he was in service and is now 18 tonnes?
2. 300 gun order is OK for the first batch of ATAGs. For the 2nd batch, we can probably solve the mobility problem by uprating the engine. From the Russian conflict, we know a gun crawling about the battlefield at 4kmph (the Bofors rate) or even 12kmph (ATAGS) is not going to survive. Counter battery fire times have reduced to 2-3 minutes!! Considering it will take a shell 45 seconds or so in flight, this is truly impressive. A radar tracks the shell and computes a fix in less than a minute, the fix location is relayed to the gun and the gun is laid in another minute, and the shell is on its way and arrives at the target in another minute! In this time, the firing unit needs to move at least 600 meters to a km considering the 300 meter range of fragment damage and the 300 meter CEPs of shells/rockets.
So the ideal firing SOP would be, unhitch the gun, load the ready firing tray, remove all superfluous personnel and the FAT from the scene, fire as many shells as you can in 30 seconds and run for dear life. If the gun takes another 30 seconds to get into a moving state after firing, you have about 2 minutes to move the gun 600 meters to a km. This gives a mobility requirement of at least 20 to 30kmph (desirable) cross country.
Because the gun's APU is electrically coupled to the FAT, a more powerful APU also means the FAT can be the older 6x6 trucks instead of the 8x8. It just makes for a more versatile and robust system with lower special requirements. This is the reason I think an uprated engine is essential for the next batch of guns.
The weight class of the bridges in forward areas needs to be fixed, either make the bridges stronger or use exotic materials in the gun (alloy wheels, titanium trails, ..) or use exotic technology like soft recoil. If it can be done for a 105mm gun, why not for a 155mm? But this will also mean that the system becomes more fragile. E.g. The M777s require constant maintenance and are not sustained fire weapons. Even Taliban stressed out these systems! We saw the video where the recoil recovery system of a gun in Afghanistan was broken and the soldiers had to manually bring the gun into firing position every time.
According to Lt. Gen. P. R. Shankar, M777 is being built in India, Lucknow. Sharang and Dhanush are all India created and made. K-9/Vajra is being built by L&T, don't know the import content from S. Korea, but L&T is capable of making the whole thing in India if need be. Shankar alluded to 7 guns as the strategy for IA, but maybe will settle for 6. All these guns have different terrain uses for the IA. ATAGS is completely India created and made. 300 orders are in the pipeline. ATAGS will be used in the plains. Artillery for IA has become transformative and in some sense Shankar claims is leading in the world. The 6th gun is the one being talked about lately. However, Shankar was emphatic in stating that ATHOS will not be in contention. All the RFI responders have to be in India and the winner gets 60% and the next best bidder gets 40% of the contract. IA will be doing the test firing and selection. We have to look at it holistically, since IA requires to keep up with the Jones so to speak and allowing the 6th gun in open competition can allow new thinking, new systems into the mix. We need to see what happens in the coming months/years.
One thing for sure, things have changed in the procurement of artillery and India is on the right path. The IA top brass are pretty savvy about getting the right equipment for the job and in fact they are the ones doing the fighting. Whatever works for the IA we have to accept. Most of the things like Pinaka, Agni, Prithvi in the rocket force are also Indian. Artillery is mostly made in India. The Ordnance factory has been restructured, so there is more accountability and quality. The later is something India needs to work upon. Maybe a better standards organization with a certification mechanism to ensure top quality. Quality does not come for free and must be continuous and constant.
^ For guns only counter battery fire, at max range, the enemy artillery will need to have the range matching the reach of ATAGs. Else they will need to move forward to engage.. giving that much time for the ATAGs battery to scoot.
But I understand this is all theoretical. In war things seldom go as per the plan.
Agree with reinforcing of critical bridges and road/rail infra on border. It is more easier to do since we have the knowledge and experience to do it.
Manish_P wrote: ↑02 Oct 2023 00:04
^ For guns only counter battery fire, at max range, the enemy artillery will need to have the range matching the reach of ATAGs. Else they will need to move forward to engage.. giving that much time for the ATAGs battery to scoot.
But I understand this is all theoretical. In war things seldom go as per the plan.
Agree with reinforcing of critical bridges and road/rail infra on border. It is more easier to do since we have the knowledge and experience to do it.
not necessarily.. The guns will be in the rear, but as far forward as possible to ensure they can influence movement in the enemy rear also. So 15-20kms behind the front line will allow an ATAGs to hit not only at the contact line with good accuracy, but also hit the enemy in his rear concentration/assembly areas, ammo depots, rear hq etc. But this will also bring it in range of an enemy counter battery.. China also has a lot of rocket artillery with a long reach. So higher mobility is a must have in the modern battlefield. Earlier, counter battery fire was expected in 13-15 minutes. This would allow a Bofors crawling at 4kmph to move a 600-700 meters away from the firing position after firing. New guns need to achieve at least this or greater degree of mobility in ~ 2.5 to 3 minutes.
pravula wrote: ↑02 Oct 2023 00:21
They don’t have to use artillery. Rockets will suffice.
sudeepj wrote:
The guns will be in the rear, but as far forward as possible to ensure they can influence movement in the enemy rear also.
Yes. Which is why i said in specifically for cases with guns only counter-battery engagements.
Like them we would also have rocket artillery in complementary or supplementary role.
Also like us they might also have their guns as far forward as possible. Bringing them within range of not only ATAGs but other systems we field.
In the end the war field is a very fluid system with many moving pieces (literally) and any theoretical plan is usually only as good as the first contact.
But what helps, for sure, is to have the longest reach and the fastest legs.
I wonder if the shells can fly a non-ballistic path to confuse WLRs. Acoustic and Seismic location might be a crap shoot in the mountains unless its well surveyed.
A competent adversary conducting counter battery in the future battlefield will utilising be loitering munitions and fiberoptic guided non line of sight missiles. Or even a GPS guided shell.
The conventional method of conducting counter battery engagement while still relevant. Don't really present a serious threat to modern highly automated guns.
pravula wrote: ↑02 Oct 2023 09:26
I wonder if the shells can fly a non-ballistic path to confuse WLRs. Acoustic and Seismic location might be a crap shoot in the mountains unless its well surveyed.
pravula wrote: ↑02 Oct 2023 09:33
I mean with GPS guided munitions, its already non ballistic to some degree isn't it? I guess cost and ROI will come into play...
Even a GPS guided shell is following a ballestic trajectory.
