Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

[srin]

if an item is on a positive indigenization list, does it mean it has to be procured via IDDM ? Or could it be Athos through the backdoor of partnership and local assembly (like the K9 Vajra) ?

[Karan M]

Can't help but laugh at how easily amateurish self serving propaganda spouted by big names is swallowed uncritically. So DRDO is asked to make a gun and since it has no prior design house knowledge of artillery gun manufacture only 300 are to be ordered. Meanwhile all these years we were told/hinted otherwise.

And once it is made, with a larger chamber, implying much more propellant, more stresses to bear, all of which IA could've stopped early on but didn't, now it's too heavy. And let's throw open the competition to "others", who BTW don't even have the ATAGS knowledge.

So wait, we will be throwing out all the knowledge gained by the design house via ATAGS and not build upon it. We need a brand new gun and anyone can try for it including firms which are but repackaging imported designs and calling it local, heavily indigenized etc. Meanwhile the hard won ATAGS knowledge can wither on the vine for all the DG Arty cares.

I mean are you even serious to justify this level of comedy. We will buy 100 Arjun from DRDO as a "favor" but after that we will throw open up the competition to anyone and include license mfd programs as well. Ergo T-90== Arjun and Arjun remains a token program whose lessons were almost buried.

Does any serious planner behave in this manner. No wonder Gen PR Shankar's claims are increasingly drawing vociferous online skepticism. They lack logic and coherence. The gent has created his nice little echo chamber with his fellow generals on YouTube. Hopefully the GOI can see through such claims and make rational decisions.

[JTull]

Athos will soon be battle proven!

[Rakesh]

Athos will soon be battle proven!

I doubt that. The ongoing Gaza war will stretch the Israelis thin. They need all hands (and equipment) on deck.

Key equipment like artillery pieces, shells, PGM kits, etc will be hard pressed to get from Israel for the foreseeable future.

[Pratyush]

Checking the Wiki list of in service equipment for Israel army. Athos is not in service with the Israeli army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... nse_Forces

[Rakesh]

I doubt Israel has the industrial capacity to supply artillery guns/rounds to its own military (in a protracted, long drawn, conflict) and then sign a potential contract with the Indian Army to supply artillery guns and the corresponding rounds, even if it is a limited batch with the rest as assembly in India. Israel is not the US and even the US is struggling to keep up with the demand for 155mm artillery rounds to Ukraine.

I will stand corrected if I am wrong.

[Pratyush]

We are going OT for the thread.

1) But from all indications, Israel has about 900 howitzers.

2) Gaza is small enough that a fraction of total arty holdings of Israel should be sufficient to deal with Hamas.

3) coupled with the Top Gun precision guided fuse. The IDF should be able to get the job done.
https://www.iai.co.il/p/topgun

4) If the IDF deploys only 300 guns and each gun shoots 225 shells per day. We are going to see 67500 shots per day from Israel into Gaza.

5) Elbit is the sole source of shell supply for IDF for the last few years.

They have received a 60 million USD contract for a supply of tens of thousands of shells. In August 2023. But it was expected for the contract to be completed by the end of next year.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/08/isr ... and-jumps/

[VinodTK]

Can't help but laugh at how easily amateurish self serving propaganda spouted by big names is swallowed uncritically. So DRDO is asked to make a gun and since it has no prior design house knowledge of artillery gun manufacture only 300 are to be ordered. Meanwhile all these years we were told/hinted otherwise.

And once it is made, with a larger chamber, implying much more propellant, more stresses to bear, all of which IA could've stopped early on but didn't, now it's too heavy. And let's throw open the competition to "others", who BTW don't even have the ATAGS knowledge.

So wait, we will be throwing out all the knowledge gained by the design house via ATAGS and not build upon it. We need a brand new gun and anyone can try for it including firms which are but repackaging imported designs and calling it local, heavily indigenized etc. Meanwhile the hard won ATAGS knowledge can wither on the vine for all the DG Arty cares.

I mean are you even serious to justify this level of comedy. We will buy 100 Arjun from DRDO as a "favor" but after that we will throw open up the competition to anyone and include license mfd programs as well. Ergo T-90== Arjun and Arjun remains a token program whose lessons were almost buried.

Does any serious planner behave in this manner. No wonder Gen PR Shankar's claims are increasingly drawing vociferous online skepticism. They lack logic and coherence. The gent has created his nice little echo chamber with his fellow generals on YouTube. Hopefully the GOI can see through such claims and make rational decisions.

+++Every statement is 100% true especially the last sentences

[ramana]

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 68,00.html
IMI makes a new shell

[Prasad]

From DRDO's latest Tech Focus on ATAGS -

During the development phase itself, Artillery Directorate appointed and positioned at ARDE, a Weapon Design and Development Team (WDDT) consisting of a Program Co-ordinator (Rank Col), two Project Managers (Rank Lt Col), and supporting staff for close co-ordination, support, and monitoring of project progress.

https://drdo.gov.in/sites/default/files ... ug2023.pdf

Absolutely zero leeway for any waffling now after having placed a Col rank officer embedded during development.

[RoyG]

Chandigarh Lobby does not exist in isolation. It is the arms procurement corruption of the Congress system.
Do read Rajni Kothari's Congress system written in the 1960s.
Congress was the hub of many systems that operate in different sectors.
The demise of Gandhis from power made these ssytems independent so much so that an arms peddler went and threatened a sitting Army chief for a truck purchase.
And nothing happened to him!
So railing against the Chandigarh lobby without knowing who is its backer is futile.

Sirjee congress was definitely involved in importing stuff but congress is not in power anymore - to be specific congress is now powerless and has very little influence on any policy institute. They cant even save their own leader from being convicted even. Far from being able t do anything for import lobby. From courts, to economic & policy institutions, media - just about everything is controlled by the present government. Congress is truly powerless and so are their supporters. So import lobby cant get any support from their congress origins.

This lobby resides inside MoD making comissions and needs no congress support - Bureaucracy is its own power centre that government doesnt want to miff yet. Atleast not directly yet.

Government is the bureaucracy. Everyone surrounding Modi minus some puppet head cabinet ministers are civil servants.

[RoyG]

Can't help but laugh at how easily amateurish self serving propaganda spouted by big names is swallowed uncritically. So DRDO is asked to make a gun and since it has no prior design house knowledge of artillery gun manufacture only 300 are to be ordered. Meanwhile all these years we were told/hinted otherwise.

And once it is made, with a larger chamber, implying much more propellant, more stresses to bear, all of which IA could've stopped early on but didn't, now it's too heavy. And let's throw open the competition to "others", who BTW don't even have the ATAGS knowledge.

So wait, we will be throwing out all the knowledge gained by the design house via ATAGS and not build upon it. We need a brand new gun and anyone can try for it including firms which are but repackaging imported designs and calling it local, heavily indigenized etc. Meanwhile the hard won ATAGS knowledge can wither on the vine for all the DG Arty cares.

I mean are you even serious to justify this level of comedy. We will buy 100 Arjun from DRDO as a "favor" but after that we will throw open up the competition to anyone and include license mfd programs as well. Ergo T-90== Arjun and Arjun remains a token program whose lessons were almost buried.

Does any serious planner behave in this manner. No wonder Gen PR Shankar's claims are increasingly drawing vociferous online skepticism. They lack logic and coherence. The gent has created his nice little echo chamber with his fellow generals on YouTube. Hopefully the GOI can see through such claims and make rational decisions.

The principal threat actor to indigenization are the civil services. They have control over all areas of government including the intelligence services. They plug into any sector which can make them money including defence. Theyve also perfected the art of license production wherever possible. Afterall, you don't want a successful domestic enterprise producing homegrown tech because it would obviate their own existence.

The new strategy is to leverage corporate house management and facilities to assemble foreign weapons at a faster rate and better quality than the PSU - Make in India. Throw a few piecemeal orders here and there and then say we want something new and then switch back to the private player and assemble 3× the # of a foreign product.

I've heard it all now, 2014, Modi, strategic relationships, trials, etc. Keep adding to the list but the fact is we are not stabilizing and consolidating platforms where it counts.

[sanjayc]

Any other army would have grabbed ATAGS, ordered some, and worked with DRDO and Kalyani to bring out the next improved version, and not let this knowledge and expertise go waste. But Indian Generals have no respect for capabilities generated inside India in defense research after much hard labor and experimentation. This will persist till Generals keep treating Indian companies like vendors and salesmen, with no skin in the game

[Pratyush]

RoyG,

Is it the civil services, that has created the confusion within the Indian army about what guns it wants?

Or is the generals themselves?

I am sorry but, in this situation, the army is to be blamed 100%.

[RoyG]

Pratyush,

The civil services are the principal threat actor. They are the parasitic entity which plugs into the forces and messes with procurement through blackmail and inducement. They have their hands in everything including intelligence. They are able to cross borders and cultivate contacts in foreign companies to collude and help empty the countries coffers. For an operation like this which has survived and thrived under successive political dispensations, its simply not possible for this to be led by the forces. It requires a special set of tools and access which only civil servants can deliver.

[Pratyush]

So over a period of 10 years, the civil services have insisted that Athos be purchased. Inspite of the Army wanting ATAGS?

They are the ones who have gotten a JV for Athos with 4 seperate Indian players. With Adani being the latest one?

Do I understand the basic thrust of your post correctly?

[Manish_P]

...

So wait, we will be throwing out all the knowledge gained by the design house via ATAGS and not build upon it. We need a brand new gun and anyone can try for it including firms which are but repackaging imported designs and calling it local, heavily indigenized etc. Meanwhile the hard won ATAGS knowledge can wither on the vine for all the DG Arty cares.

I mean are you even serious to justify this level of comedy. We will buy 100 Arjun from DRDO as a "favor" but after that we will throw open up the competition to anyone and include license mfd programs as well. Ergo T-90== Arjun and Arjun remains a token program whose lessons were almost buried.

Does any serious planner behave in this manner...

Seeing you posting here after a long time Karan ji. Wish it was with a not so depressing post.

Similar story seems to be happening with the navy?

Just a few days ago saw a series of exchanges on twitter between some ex Navy, some current PSU and some watchers about the sub program and how there is a brain drain happening, in addition to retirements. What was interesting (to me) was the poster saying that some of our sub experts were head hunted by foreign entities a few years back. Including the south koreans. And used in working on improving their products. Which are now being offered to us.

[fanne]

The original M46 had a problem with elevation - I think it has a max elevation of only 45 degrees or so. Not sure if Sharang upgrade has fixed it or if it retains this issue. This would create problems in mountainous regions where you need to clear high ridge lines and hit the leeward side.

you know how IA solved this problem? They put sand bags (or simply mud) or stuff like that and achieved some 5-10 degrees extra elevation.

[Pratyush]

Just wow.

But ATAGS is unacceptable.

[RoyG]

So over a period of 10 years, the civil services have insisted that Athos be purchased. Inspite of the Army wanting ATAGS?

They are the ones who have gotten a JV for Athos with 4 seperate Indian players. With Adani being the latest one?

Do I understand the basic thrust of your post correctly?

I don't understand the premise of your post. Procurements, r&d, budgetary allocations, diplomacy etc. have traditionally been political decisions and not a military ones. These are all led by the civil services. You are putting a microscope to a want in a certain quarter of the armed forces but missing the bigger picture as to why this does not translate into procurement of a domestic product, and that too a better one.

[RoyG]

...

So wait, we will be throwing out all the knowledge gained by the design house via ATAGS and not build upon it. We need a brand new gun and anyone can try for it including firms which are but repackaging imported designs and calling it local, heavily indigenized etc. Meanwhile the hard won ATAGS knowledge can wither on the vine for all the DG Arty cares.

I mean are you even serious to justify this level of comedy. We will buy 100 Arjun from DRDO as a "favor" but after that we will throw open up the competition to anyone and include license mfd programs as well. Ergo T-90== Arjun and Arjun remains a token program whose lessons were almost buried.

Does any serious planner behave in this manner...

Seeing you posting here after a long time Karan ji. Wish it was with a not so depressing post.

Similar story seems to be happening with the navy?

Just a few days ago saw a series of exchanges on twitter between some ex Navy, some current PSU and some watchers about the sub program and how there is a brain drain happening, in addition to retirements. What was interesting (to me) was the poster saying that some of our sub experts were head hunted by foreign entities a few years back. Including the south koreans. And used in working on improving their products. Which are now being offered to us.

Manish,

The will only get worse in the coming years if something isn't done to build and strengthen insitutions and incentivize people to stay and produce results and get respect. I see more Indians than ever flocking to US to get a medical residency spot. This year ~40% of my applicants are from India and I've been approached by an indian univ program for the all too familiar 'M-O-U' which will bring the count even higher.

Re-building a univ program from scratch is tough and incentiving candidates to stay after they complete their training is even tougher. Usually the challenge doesn't come from the clinicians but from my bureacrat colleagues who have a different agenda. Bureacrats have this 'governing' mentality because they have a fear psychosis that a specialist will take their job. They need to get into the habit of helping set standards, qc, and oversight instead.

Obviously military procurement is a lot more complex than this but I think there are relatable challenges on some level.

[Pratyush]

Roy,

Within my own family, I have a fair numbers within Babucracy. In fact my father used to be one. Several members are still in civil service.

So let me make it very clear.

A.K. Antony, when he authorised the development of ATAGS. It was a symbol of the Indian governments desire to become independent in terms of at least arty.

The civil service cannot tell the difference between the muzzle and the breach of a gun.

They don't have the skin in the game especially after A.K.Antony's decision to build the damm gun at home.

This is bipartisan.

The civil services are not going to stick out and get hammered by the political masters, in this situation.

This is the army, playing games, just like they have played with Arjun.

[RoyG]

Roy,

Within my own family, I have a fair numbers within Babucracy. In fact my father used to be one. Several members are still in civil service.

So let me make it very clear.

A.K. Antony, when he authorised the development of ATAGS. It was a symbol of the Indian governments desire to become independent in terms of at least arty.

The civil service cannot tell the difference between the muzzle and the breach of a gun.

They don't have the skin in the game especially after A.K.Antony's decision to build the damm gun at home.

This is bipartisan.

The civil services are not going to stick out and get hammered by the political masters, in this situation.

This is the army, playing games, just like they have played with Arjun.

I'm in agreement with you on the timeline of events. That being said, you actually validated my point. Bureacrats aren't specialists and yet set the agenda for the armed forces. It's a structural problem with the military as a stakeholder in the collusion, not the principal cause of the collusion.

I'll give you another example, we have make-in-india. A PM as a figurehead for a select group of bureacrats set the agenda yet again for the armed forces. It was touted as building self sufficiency but by design was promoting more of the same. In other words, its a marketing gimmick.

Similarly, ATAGS was touted as a building self sufficiency in artillery but by deisgn the procurement process with the same self-serving bureacrats are still in place. They've just adapted their strategy to mould the orders in such a way that they still lean on a foreign product and make $. It's not possible for the armed forces to derail the process by itself when they are answerable to the bureacracy. In other words, approval is given and kickbacks are expected. They are allowed and in many cases incentivized to do so.

[Jay]

Bureacrats aren't specialists and yet set the agenda for the armed forces. It's a structural problem with the military as a stakeholder in the collusion, not the principal cause of the collusion.

This is not a structural problem but a feature and that's how it should be. Problem is the incompetence of some in the military to digest this and mold their practices, structures, protocols, etc and constantly using the loophole of "domain knowledge" to fall back on lazy/easy to implement practices to gain a short term reprieve but losing the long game and causing more pain down the line. If the babus/politicos have not authorized IGMDP program, army would had been stuck with the latest version of scud missile or something like that. Without Tejas, we would have been screwed in the next 20 years for the lack of a capable fighter in quantity. These are just two example to drive the point of army foolishness to constantly play this game of "moving goalpost" whenever they see a new brochure.

[Manish_P]

The original M46 had a problem with elevation - I think it has a max elevation of only 45 degrees or so. Not sure if Sharang upgrade has fixed it or if it retains this issue. This would create problems in mountainous regions where you need to clear high ridge lines and hit the leeward side.

you know how IA solved this problem? They put sand bags (or simply mud) or stuff like that and achieved some 5-10 degrees extra elevation.

IIRC sir they did (or rather were forced to do) this during the Kargil war!
And it was proudly shown as an eg of 'desi jugaad' by some publications

[RoyG]

Bureacrats aren't specialists and yet set the agenda for the armed forces. It's a structural problem with the military as a stakeholder in the collusion, not the principal cause of the collusion.

This is not a structural problem but a feature and that's how it should be. Problem is the incompetence of some in the military to digest this and mold their practices, structures, protocols, etc and constantly using the loophole of "domain knowledge" to fall back on lazy/easy to implement practices to gain a short term reprieve but losing the long game and causing more pain down the line. If the babus/politicos have not authorized IGMDP program, army would had been stuck with the latest version of scud missile or something like that. Without Tejas, we would have been screwed in the next 20 years for the lack of a capable fighter in quantity. These are just two example to drive the point of army foolishness to constantly play this game of "moving goalpost" whenever they see a new brochure.

This is not the case. The bureacracy formulated the IGMDP because they have no choice for a variety of reasons to develop and manufacture certain missiles locally. They specialize in identifying areas in which they dont have to like artillery, rifles, atgm, etc. They will do just enough that we dont fall too behind but the bulk orders will go to a foreign manufacturer.

Arjun: Passed all tests and even bested T-72BM aka T-90 in comparative trials -> Piecemeal orders -> Bulk order T-72BM -> Arjun MKIA ready -> FMBT development ordered

LCA: LCAMKIA -> Piecemeal orders -> LCA MKII development ordered -> MRFA ; We have no serious comittment for orders other than 120 LCAMKII aircraft. I can guarantee MRFA will eat into the LCAMKII orders.

Rifles: No trials despite domestic private players expressing interest -> Kalashnikov Concern awarded contract and setup subsidiary IRRPL to collect 'rents'.

The list goes on and on. We simply are unable to stabilize and consoldiate platforms because of this rent seeking operation enabled and promoted by bureacrats. Its just not possible for the military to take the lead in skriting these indigenization initiatives. Its too complex a machine.

[Manish_P]

...
The will only get worse in the coming years if something isn't done to build and strengthen insitutions and incentivize people to stay and produce results and get respect. I see more Indians than ever flocking to US to get a medical residency spot. This year ~40% of my applicants are from India and I've been approached by an indian univ program for the all too familiar 'M-O-U' which will bring the count even higher.
...

<OT> I will agree with you as I have seen this happening around me. Anecdotal though it might be and skewed further due to my circle being overwhelmingly middle to upper middle class.

In my youth around 2 out of 10 guys in my circle would try to go abroad (US being the top choice) for higher studies (and settling there) and 1 would make it. Now in the current gen I see it more like 6 out of 10 will try and 4 will make it - typically 2 to the US, 1 to UK/Europe/Canada, 1 to Australia/Russia...

I don't know the data exactly but I can see a sizeable chunk of lower income groups moving up the income pyramid. Some pulled up by goverment schemes, but most pushed by their own aspirations. I am hoping (optimistic) that they will plug in the gaps. And propel us further and faster due to critical momentum being attained.

As you mentioned, we here need to strengthen institutions and build more of them. Also I think their should be a wider sort of tie-up between the defence industry and the education sector. One thing I have specifically (related to this issue) liked about the US mil is how they recruit youngsters by offering to sponsor their higher education or specialisation. Something worth emulating perhaps..

</OT>

[konaseema]

Let us hope to see change in attitude from our Gunners soon enough, as we saw with our ACM. I guess it is a matter of time before the Sarkar tames its IA generals by pressing the right buttons.

[fanne]

Patience is a virtue, more so in this time of instant gratification

[Jay]

The list goes on and on. We simply are unable to stabilize and consoldiate platforms because of this rent seeking operation

100% agree and this is what I was referring to in my post as well.

enabled and promoted by bureacrats. Its just not possible for the military to take the lead in skriting these indigenization initiatives. Its too complex a machine.

I have to disagree here. From every which way you look at it, it seems the military is the one which is enabling and promoting this behavior and time and time again it is the military that has taken the lead to skirt indigenization.

In all the examples you cited, it was the military, not some sarkari babu, that delayed the eventually succeeded in reducing the scope of indigenous weapons. After looking at all these cases, how one can come up with an alternate theory that it was sarkari bureaucrats fault is a bit unsettling.

[RoyG]

The list goes on and on. We simply are unable to stabilize and consoldiate platforms because of this rent seeking operation

100% agree and this is what I was referring to in my post as well.

enabled and promoted by bureacrats. Its just not possible for the military to take the lead in skriting these indigenization initiatives. Its too complex a machine.

I have to disagree here. From every which way you look at it, it seems the military is the one which is enabling and promoting this behavior and time and time again it is the military that has taken the lead to skirt indigenization.

In all the examples you cited, it was the military, not some sarkari babu, that delayed the eventually succeeded in reducing the scope of indigenous weapons. After looking at all these cases, how one can come up with an alternate theory that it was sarkari bureaucrats fault is a bit unsettling.

Jay,

This is the typical response we get which is why things havent changed much in procurement after so many decades. We aren't focusing on the root cause of the issue and instead on the symptom.

I'll give you another example to illustrate what I mean. In the US, K-12 education has turned into a failure. Ask any parent including on BRF if they feel their kids are getting a decent education and are safe in the prisons we call schools and the answer will be a resounding no. The response at the state and federal level has been a distaster. Instead of promoting school choice and raising and enforcing standards including failing non-performers, they convinced everyone to blame teachers, parents, students, funding, and the schools themsleves. In other words, they blamed the symptoms and used it as a justification to preserve and expand the bureacracy further. The bureacracy both at the state and federal levels collude with the teachers unions to stifle creativity, competitiveness, etc. Its only when the students enter college do they enjoy more freedom to perform which is truly the engine for growth in the US.

The military leadership including its procurement divison just like the teachers unions do benefit from the scam but they arent the drivers of it. It is those at the top who set the policies, funding, and direction. If there is a problem at the bottom is is because of bad policies, oversight lapses, and corruption from the top. To lure the people into a false sense of complacency, they always cite how they achieved a laundry list of objectives but this is the bare minimum most of the time. This is what most of the items on the negative import list are. Don't even get me started on the emergency procurment clauses which were built into the policy. Was RNS and his team of self serving bureacrats too naive to notice what the hell is going on? Nope. They know and they wont touch it because they all benefit. Again, its just simply not possible for the armed forces to skirt indigenization by itself. It relies upon a larger architecture of bureaucrats who are many times impervious to prosecution. A colonial hangover which has become an albatross around India's neck.

[sudeepj]

The world is hurtling towards a global war and DRDO / Army complex cant get the basics right. Its frightening.

[ramana]

https://idrw.org/atags-vs-atags-indian- ... roduction/

Is there a reference listing the features of the two versions and the Requirements.?

[Pratyush]

The designs are not so substantially different that there is anything to choose between the two of them.

However, given the unique characteristics of Indian procurement system, whereby the order are split 60:40. The initial order of 307 units will make it economically unviable for both Bharat Forge and TATA to setup the plant and produce the guns designed by the other vendor.

Unless it's followed by substantially larger orders.

Bharat Forge is already producing 90 ATAGS for Armenia, you add 184 BF designed ATAGS for the Indian army. They will be fine.

But, if you tell Bharat Forge to make 123, TATA guns, on top of 90 of own designs for Armenia. You see the problems you are creating for Bharat Forge.

Similarly, if you you are asking TATA to make just 123 guns from Bharat Forge stable. Then investment needed to match the price from Bharat Forge is not going to be viable.

The whole situation is fluster cuck.

[Kersi]

I doubt Israel has the industrial capacity to supply artillery guns/rounds to its own military (in a protracted, long drawn, conflict) and then sign a potential contract with the Indian Army to supply artillery guns and the corresponding rounds, even if it is a limited batch with the rest as assembly in India. Israel is not the US and even the US is struggling to keep up with the demand for 155mm artillery rounds to Ukraine.

But this reality may not stop the Indian "artillery experts" from singing paens about Athos and demean all desi stuff

[nachiket]

The IA has lots of M-46 bought in the 1990s. The gun carriage is very robust and can handle the new barrel.
....
So most of the M-46 will get the upgrade. It is very affordable and even better it works.

Ramana ji, the Sharang upgrade was ordered for only around 300 guns not the entire inventory which must have been near 1000 guns at the peak. Not sure how much of that inventory is in active service today.

....
Does any serious planner behave in this manner. No wonder Gen PR Shankar's claims are increasingly drawing vociferous online skepticism. They lack logic and coherence. The gent has created his nice little echo chamber with his fellow generals on YouTube. Hopefully the GOI can see through such claims and make rational decisions.

Have you seen anything yet that gives you hope that the Defence Minister or anyone else in the Indian government understands the game being played not just with ATAGS but several indigenous systems and that they are being taken for a ride? This is not rhetorical. I genuinely wish to know if there are any indications of the same. The recent news of more orders for the Tejas Mk1A may provide some hope but I haven't seen any indications of similar change in the IA yet. Procurements across the board from small arms to tanks and artillery remain a mess with baffling decisions or a lack of decisions altogether and a preference for foreign systems even where indigenous alternatives are available.

[ramana]

Corporate wars via AtmaNirbhar..

[Kersi]

Corporate wars via AtmaNirbhar..

Corruption v/s AtmaNirbhar ?

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1726105 ... 12611?s=20 ---> Watch superb tribute to the exploits of the big howitzers in the high altitude mountains. In 1999, they made the Pakistan Army rats to run away from icy heights.

[Rakesh]

X-Post from the Joint Military Exercises thread...

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1725554 ... 61684?s=20 ---> Going all out. Pinaka, Smerch and Grad rocket artillery systems fire during Exercise Agni Prahar, courtesy of the Bhopal based 21 Strike Corps (Sudarshan Chakra Corps).

https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1725555801132249206?s=20 ---> Look, it's a pod of 2 different Pinaka launchers Interoperability of Pinaka Pods.