Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Oct 2023 18:34

ashishvikas wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023 10:40 Ramping up capacity, prepared to execute big orders: HAL chief
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 82823.html
24 Oct 2023, By Rahul Singh

^^^^
https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1716685 ... 99935?s=20 ---> Key points:

- Safran HAL JV for IMRH engines soon, production in 4 years. IMRH by 2031.
- Mk-1A delivery 24/year by 2025-26
- Mk-1A near to CEMILAC clearance
- LCH ~ 25/year for 156 units
- GE F414 deal in an year (fingers crossed)
- 84 Su-30 MKI Uttam + upgrade will not involve any foreign OEM

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Oct 2023 19:16

ashishvikas wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023 11:08 Ramping up capacity, prepared to execute big orders: HAL chief
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 82823.html
24 Oct 2023, By Rahul Singh
... Our current goal is to deliver 24 aircraft from the Bengaluru and Nashik facilities from 2025-26. Once we have reached that goal, we can ramp up production to 30 aircraft per annum. It is possible if we can streamline the supply chain. But first we have to prove we can deliver 24 as there’s a general sense that HAL is not capable of producing aircraft in big numbers. I don’t want to get into that debate. More numbers are achievable as we know what our capacities and capabilities are. We are focussed on making more numbers available to our customers as soon as possible.

Increase the order book (from the current 83 to a planned 97+ more) and the production rate will correspondingly increase. The proof lies in the pudding. Was repeated time and time and time and time again on BRF ---> Production Rate is based on Orders.

But that was dismissed by folks who wanted to see F-16 Block 70/72 in the IAF. F-16 production was going to revolutionize India's aviation industry. F-16 production would set the ball rolling in other sectors of the economy. The bokwas that was being parroted on BRF - in the Single Engine fighter thread - was astounding. Especially with all the current world events going on, I am really glad that India did not take the plunge and make the monumental geopolitical blunder that would have been the F-16 (or any American fighter) for the IAF. Keeping fingers crossed and hoping the MRFA contest dies a quick death.

And for a jingo, below is music to my ears!!!

There has been a paradigm shift in HAL’s approach. We no longer wait to start work after an order or sanction comes, be it design or manufacturing activity. The moment we see the demand for a particular product, HAL ploughs its own money into these activities SO THAT TIME IS NOT LOST. Today we ensure we have a head start even before a contract is signed.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 25 Oct 2023 06:09

All is possible due to additional money now with HAL. LCH limited production is also done like this. If we can assure a total of 300+ LCA MK1A, we can see 40 units per year of production as HAL will be willing to invest more in creating production lines. Plus, increase the projected requirement of MK2s, aim for 60 sq., and give a large land base for multi-role fighters to the Indian Navy located in Andaman and south of Bharat and places like Guj to take care of any hostile surface vessels. AMCA will take lot of time to come anyway. We can address lot of issues with such a powerful airforce.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 25 Oct 2023 14:13

I hope Jaishankar will be able to unlock one export order for LCA. He is the only minister who will not go into inaction in election year. Jet sales is somewhat geopolitics and part curry favors. SoKo are great at it - that is how they are selling it big. SoKo has both good product + good sales team. We only have good product. But Jaishankar is a great salesman. I hope he can cover for the bad sales machinery we have.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Oct 2023 15:09

Rakesh wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023 18:34
ashishvikas wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023 10:40 Ramping up capacity, prepared to execute big orders: HAL chief
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 82823.html
24 Oct 2023, By Rahul Singh
^^^^
https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1716685 ... 99935?s=20 ---> Key points:

- Safran HAL JV for IMRH engines soon, production in 4 years. IMRH by 2031.
- Mk-1A delivery 24/year by 2025-26
- Mk-1A near to CEMILAC clearance
- LCH ~ 25/year for 156 units
- GE F414 deal in an year (fingers crossed)
- 84 Su-30 MKI Uttam + upgrade will not involve any foreign OEM

GE F404 deal should be pursued now that there is intent for a fleet of 200 LCAs

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 28 Oct 2023 05:27

Prem Kumar wrote: ↑03 Oct 2023 11:48 Big ticket weapons in mega IAF list of desi projects worth over Rs 3 lakh crore
https://www.firstpost.com/india/big-tic ... 95262.html
02 Oct 2023

This is massive news coming from the IAF Chief! If it materializes, he is committing Rs 3 Lakh Crores ($37 Billion+) on Atmanirbhar programs. If he signs of on the big ticket items on this list (Mk1a 97 additional order, 156 LCH), he will be remembered as the Chief who really made a quantum change towards the emergence of our MIC ecosystem. Its a welcome change from the MRFA-chanting person we first saw a year ago.

Reality has a way of winning always

Can chant MRFA every year until the end of time- it doesn’t mean it’s happening.

Russia-Ukraine and even Covid before that has shown the precarious world we live in and the value of having domestic supply chains and sources you can rely on

If this reality has trickled down even slightly into Indian military leadership then it’s a BIG win

That said the proof is always in the eating and anyone can make a fantasy list (it’s all doable though), enacting on big talk has always been the shortfall of india and especially the defence sector

If every single one of those items plus IMRH, AMCA, MWF etc are done India as we know it will be a very different country

How long will we have to actually wait for a contract for all of the above though? They haven’t even ordered the LUH or sanctioned AMCA (CDR)

Now we are hearing talk of 24-30/LCA annually, this can ONLY happen with more LCA ordered- where are the contracts? Only talk.

Even the much touted G414 deal is held up basically hamstringing the entire MWF/MK.2 effort

Basically- talk is cheap. A 3TN soon to be 7 TN (2030) economy deserves better than all this

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 28 Oct 2023 05:38

Rakesh wrote: ↑18 Oct 2023 20:56
ashishvikas wrote: ↑17 Oct 2023 08:18 Known for wine, Nashik is the next aircraft manufacturing hub as HAL spreads wings[/b]
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 4-amp.html
By Rahul Singh, Bengaluru
Image of the above article...

https://x.com/rahulsinghx/status/171410 ... 33092?s=20 --->

IAF (generals) are some cheeky fellas! ‘Pressure should be applied to ensure HAL meets 24/year’ when they’ve only ordered 83 of the things! 83/24= less than 3.5 years, what aircraft production run in history has ever run less than 5 years? Yet this is exactly what these esteemed gentlemen are now demanding

Let’s just pretend like the MRFA induction rate isn’t stipulated to be 14/yr

Keep blaming HAL whilst drooling over foreign toys, nothing seems to change with some

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 28 Oct 2023 05:47

Rakesh wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023 18:34
ashishvikas wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023 10:40 Ramping up capacity, prepared to execute big orders: HAL chief
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 82823.html
24 Oct 2023, By Rahul Singh
^^^^
https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1716685 ... 99935?s=20 ---> Key points:

- Safran HAL JV for IMRH engines soon, production in 4 years. IMRH by 2031.
- Mk-1A delivery 24/year by 2025-26
- Mk-1A near to CEMILAC clearance
- LCH ~ 25/year for 156 units
- GE F414 deal in an year (fingers crossed)
- 84 Su-30 MKI Uttam + upgrade will not involve any foreign OEM

Story of the IMRH genuinely breaks my heart, it was mooted almost a decade ago, HAL expected to have had a few prototypes flying by now but have to wait for formal clearances from GoI, HAL is transforming into a powerhouse of capabilities but it’s criminally held back by the same old babudom. Like Air India they deserve to be removed from the shackles of the same legacy and transform themselves into a genuine world beater

MK1A won’t be done anywhere near 24/year in 2025-26, in 2024-5 they are targeting ~8, you don’t triple production overnight nor will they increase production with no confirmation of the 97 unit follow on order

I wonder if HAL are willing to do the same as with LCH/LUH and start building LCA airframes just to mothball awaiting formal contracts, given the costs involved it seems unlikely and unwise given they are accountable to shareholders

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 29 Oct 2023 01:03

Until 2 years back, Tejas Mk2 was projected to be ready for production by 2026 in all statements of HAL and news articles. It was supposed to be unveiled in 2022 Independence day and first flight in 2023.
Later reports started coming in that first flight will only be in 2026-27, which would mean Contract signing won't happen until atleast 2032.
-
The projected numbers of Tejas Mk2 also came down over the last 2-3 years. 12 squadrons of Tejas Mk2 were originally projected to be bought, which subsequently came down to 200 jets, then 160 and finally 120 jets i.e. 6 squadrons.
-
Coming to retirements, apart from MIG 21s, Jaguars were planned to be retired starting from 2025 to 2032. Jaguars were originally planned to be replaced with Tejas Mk2.

So, looks like IAF decided to replace Jaguars with Tejas Mk1A instead of Mk2. That is the reason for this additional order and the reason why projected numbers of Tejas Mk2 also came down from 12 to 6 squadrons.
----
On a side note, AMCA Mk1 was projected to be ready by 2031 and Mk2 to be ready by 2035 as per media reports couple of years back. The projected timeline of AMCA Mk1 is roughly coinciding with the new timeline of Tejas Mk2.

I saw a couple of posts where people showed apprehensions that Tejas Mk2 will be shelved and AMCA will be ordered directly.
I disagree with that statement. While many posters have already countered this arguement with various reasons, one reason I want to add is that I believe IAF is looking at AMCA as a replacement of Su30MKI.

Given the way things are moving with respect to Tejas Mk2, I believe the timelines of AMCA might be further pushed by atleast 4 to 5 years from what it is currently projected. AMCA would be ready by the time Su30s start retiring after 2040.

So, Tejas Mk2 is required atleast to replace Mirages and MIG29s in 2030s.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 29 Oct 2023 05:12

LakshmanPST wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023 01:03 I disagree with that statement. While many posters have already countered this arguement with various reasons, one reason I want to add is that I believe IAF is looking at AMCA as a replacement of Su30MKI.

Given the way things are moving with respect to Tejas Mk2, I believe the timelines of AMCA might be further pushed by atleast 4 to 5 years from what it is currently projected. AMCA would be ready by the time Su30s start retiring after 2040.

So, Tejas Mk2 is required atleast to replace Mirages and MIG29s in 2030s.

Yep, I fully agree!

The AMCA is set to seamlessly take over all roles from the Su-30MKI, marking a new era in the Indian Air Force's capabilities.

- Payload: AMCA's 6,500 kg doesn't fall far from Su-30MKI's 8000 kg. It's close enough operationally.

- Equal payload: Bump up from 12 squadrons to 15, and we're talking equivalent (kg per kg) if not superior, firepower and presence.

- Fuel Smarts: Find a way to pack in an extra 1,500 kg of fuel, either through an internal fuel tank or CFT, and AMCA outruns and outlasts the MKI, no sweat.(Efficiency of engine and lighter platform)

- Tech Edge: With AMCA, we're stepping into the future. Better efficiency, better tech.

AMCA is more than up for the job and then some.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 29 Oct 2023 05:45

LakshmanPST wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023 01:03 Until 2 years back, Tejas Mk2 was projected to be ready for production by 2026 in all statements of HAL and news articles. It was supposed to be unveiled in 2022 Independence day and first flight in 2023.
Later reports started coming in that first flight will only be in 2026-27, which would mean Contract signing won't happen until atleast 2032.
-
The projected numbers of Tejas Mk2 also came down over the last 2-3 years. 12 squadrons of Tejas Mk2 were originally projected to be bought, which subsequently came down to 200 jets, then 160 and finally 120 jets i.e. 6 squadrons.
-
Coming to retirements, apart from MIG 21s, Jaguars were planned to be retired starting from 2025 to 2032. Jaguars were originally planned to be replaced with Tejas Mk2.

So, looks like IAF decided to replace Jaguars with Tejas Mk1A instead of Mk2. That is the reason for this additional order and the reason why projected numbers of Tejas Mk2 also came down from 12 to 6 squadrons.
----
On a side note, AMCA Mk1 was projected to be ready by 2031 and Mk2 to be ready by 2035 as per media reports couple of years back. The projected timeline of AMCA Mk1 is roughly coinciding with the new timeline of Tejas Mk2.

I saw a couple of posts where people showed apprehensions that Tejas Mk2 will be shelved and AMCA will be ordered directly.
I disagree with that statement. While many posters have already countered this arguement with various reasons, one reason I want to add is that I believe IAF is looking at AMCA as a replacement of Su30MKI.

Given the way things are moving with respect to Tejas Mk2, I believe the timelines of AMCA might be further pushed by atleast 4 to 5 years from what it is currently projected. AMCA would be ready by the time Su30s start retiring after 2040.

So, Tejas Mk2 is required atleast to replace Mirages and MIG29s in 2030s.

Both LCA MK.2 and AMCA have been delayed because of paper shuffling, CCS sanction for Mk.2 only came late 2022 and by many reports financial disbursement is still stifled for the project, AMCA has been on the verge of CDR for many years not yet neither it nor the promised 125KN engine JV are anywhere to be seen

Hard to see AMCA before 2040 or LCA before 2030 at this point, the need to link development milestones to central govt management is a losing cause yet no lessons are learned again and again, IMRH is another victim of this nonsense

bala · Post by **bala** » 29 Oct 2023 08:26

I don't understand this serial mode of development when the rest of the world does things in parallel. Both AMCA, MK2 and other projects require a concerted effort and is worked upon simultaneously. The Skunk Works of LM attempts a first prototype based on 80:20 rule, i.e. get 80 % of critical requirements and in version 2, 3 etc work on the rest 20%. AMCA with GE414 twin engines is good first start. The IAF can immediately put to use a stealth aircraft. When the engine of higher rating becomes available you switch in version 2. Babu delays are one thing, but the firm resolve to achieve goals comes from Mantriji. The driving force to hasten things up also comes from Mantriji and the Babu has to comply with what mantriji says. This chalta hai atitude must be eliminated for India to progress quickly. I see no issue with funding, there is plenty of tax revenue and each year it increases by 30% or more. The R&D budget are minuscule compared to other acquisition programs.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 29 Oct 2023 09:21

Cybaru wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023 05:12
LakshmanPST wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023 01:03 I disagree with that statement. While many posters have already countered this arguement with various reasons, one reason I want to add is that I believe IAF is looking at AMCA as a replacement of Su30MKI.

Given the way things are moving with respect to Tejas Mk2, I believe the timelines of AMCA might be further pushed by atleast 4 to 5 years from what it is currently projected. AMCA would be ready by the time Su30s start retiring after 2040.

So, Tejas Mk2 is required atleast to replace Mirages and MIG29s in 2030s.

Yep, I fully agree!

The AMCA is set to seamlessly take over all roles from the Su-30MKI, marking a new era in the Indian Air Force's capabilities.

- Payload: AMCA's 6,500 kg doesn't fall far from Su-30MKI's 8000 kg. It's close enough operationally.

- Equal payload: Bump up from 12 squadrons to 15, and we're talking equivalent (kg per kg) if not superior, firepower and presence.

- Fuel Smarts: Find a way to pack in an extra 1,500 kg of fuel, either through an internal fuel tank or CFT, and AMCA outruns and outlasts the MKI, no sweat.(Efficiency of engine and lighter platform)

- Tech Edge: With AMCA, we're stepping into the future. Better efficiency, better tech.

AMCA is more than up for the job and then some.

AMCA in 2040 will be as much as obsolete as su-30 mki currently is. If tejas mk1a was good enough to replace Jaguar, I'm sure Tejas mk2 program for 6 squadrons is superfluous especially considering that HLFT-42 will have a similar profile. It does not take a genius to figure out that HAL can make all metal HLTF-42 cheaper and faster than mk2.

AMCA was conceived during a time when mirage 2000 and mig-29 needed a replacement. FGFA was supposed to be Su-30 replacment with serial production starting around 2025 in India in Nashik. If you need more proof, AMCA with 6500 ton payoad carried externally is exactly the same as Mirage-2000. I doubt whether CFTs will ever be developed for stealth fighters considering that they cannot be dropped during missions. It will be stupid to extend range at the cost of stealth. Just fly high and save fuel on a stealth platform. The true replacement for Su-30 mki will be a B-21 raider class bomber or NGAD type fighter.

If DRDO is poised to work on snail pace with tejas mk2 as well, its better to just sign 114 MRFA and 50 Mirage-2000 replacement at one go. However Rafale will be hopelessly outclassed soon by chinese fighters. Its better to build up our anti-stealth capabilities as well or buy F-35. Replace all Jaguar squadrons and Mig-29 with Tejas mk1a or HLFT_42 to save costs.

VishnuS · Post by **VishnuS** » 29 Oct 2023 10:15

@BenG Bhai, you're wrong.

If the conception of AMCA in 2005 is the excuse for it becoming obsolete by the time of its induction in 2040, then LCA MK1/1A should have been obsolete by the time of their induction in 2015/24!! But are they!? They're not.

I will say AMCA will be even more potent than we envisioned,, because our electronics and Avionics industry will mature! Lessons learnt from operating MK1A and MK2, rebuilding of Su-30MKI avionics and TEDBF's sensor fusion design from ground up, everything will be a stepping stone.

Coming to Payload, Why do you think Su 30MKI is just only bomber!! It is our Air Superiority Fighter, that can also act as Mini AWACS! If you want to see Su 30MKI as just a bomber why didn't you consider Aura as it's replacement and directly went to NGAD or B21!?

Bro, let's not even get into the work that has gone into LCA MK2, it's almost a new design from scratch there is less than 20% that came from MK1. If you want to learn about them go to DefExpo 2024, the ticket could be around 5K, maybe we could meet there!!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 29 Oct 2023 12:45

BenG wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023 09:21 AMCA in 2040 will be as much as obsolete as su-30 mki currently is. If tejas mk1a was good enough to replace Jaguar, I'm sure Tejas mk2 program for 6 squadrons is superfluous especially considering that HLFT-42 will have a similar profile. It does not take a genius to figure out that HAL can make all metal HLTF-42 cheaper and faster than mk2.

AMCA was conceived during a time when mirage 2000 and mig-29 needed a replacement. FGFA was supposed to be Su-30 replacment with serial production starting around 2025 in India in Nashik. If you need more proof, AMCA with 6500 ton payoad carried externally is exactly the same as Mirage-2000. I doubt whether CFTs will ever be developed for stealth fighters considering that they cannot be dropped during missions. It will be stupid to extend range at the cost of stealth. Just fly high and save fuel on a stealth platform. The true replacement for Su-30 mki will be a B-21 raider class bomber or NGAD type fighter.

If DRDO is poised to work on snail pace with tejas mk2 as well, its better to just sign 114 MRFA and 50 Mirage-2000 replacement at one go. However Rafale will be hopelessly outclassed soon by chinese fighters. Its better to build up our anti-stealth capabilities as well or buy F-35. Replace all Jaguar squadrons and Mig-29 with Tejas mk1a or HLFT_42 to save costs.

Oh my god, this seems like how the IAF brochures are written. We dream up stuff that shows up randomly on the internet without building the industrial base required to get there. Then we flog the agencies working on it and spread hate on them for failing to meet the impossible-unattainable requirements. It's okay if you think AMCA won't meet the needs. That's your right. I beg to differ and state that given the work we are doing on our missiles, any platform that can deliver weapons to accomplish a strategic objective is worth working on. But AMCA goes many steps further by adding stealth and making it difficult for enemies to thwart that objective. Given the high internal fuel and stealthy bay, it goes a long way. Adding CFTs enables it to retain stealth for much longer than normal and helps the mission overall. AMCA with stealthy CATS warrior drones takes it to a new level. There are many ways to solve the same problem. Just because someone thought of a method it isn't the only way.

Y

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 29 Oct 2023 12:53

"Obsolete" against what? The best the West would have to offer 20 years from now? We are making stuff for our needs (Pakis and Chinese), not to be on the cutting edge of aviation and compete with US and France. AMCA and LCA MK1A and MK2 are very effective against Chinese and Pakis. That is all we need, unless we intend to invade Europe.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 30 Oct 2023 00:15

Pakistan can fly dirt cheap, chinese quality JF-17s and that's enough to defend against a technologically advanced country with Su-30s and S-400s. But we must have 7th gen aircrafts today to defend against China. What logic is this?

Build LCA MK2 preferably with a local engine. Even if we are a generation behind, it's fine. We're anyway going to be defensively postured (given our political doctrine and history).

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 30 Oct 2023 05:19

May just be trolling!

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 30 Oct 2023 08:28

BenG wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023 09:21 AMCA in 2040 will be as much as obsolete as su-30 mki currently is.

This is absolutely ignorant, dhoti-shivering, China-worshipping doom-and-gloom crap. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and I've just given you mine.

... Rafale will be hopelessly outclassed soon by chinese fighters.

More of the same stuff.

I bet, if you gave IAF pilots the choice of how to fight a hypothetical future war against China:

IAF has only Indian pilots and hundreds of Rafales, AMCAs, Tejas Mk1As and Mk 2s, while PLAAF has only Chinese pilots and hundreds of J17s and J20s, or
Keep the pilots the same but switch planes

then IAF would pick Option 1 (without hesitation).

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 30 Oct 2023 13:59

BenG is a troll. Don't feed the troll

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Oct 2023 19:06

Ignore the naysayers. You will never convince them, even with hard data. Focus on the positive. See below!

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1718 ... 34663?s=20 ---> In anticipation of the impending induction of the LCA Mk1A into active service, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has initiated the development of an advanced avionics simulator specifically tailored for the LCA Mk1A aircraft.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 01 Nov 2023 12:49

VishnuS wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023 10:15 @BenG Bhai, you're wrong.

If the conception of AMCA in 2005 is the excuse for it becoming obsolete by the time of its induction in 2040, then LCA MK1/1A should have been obsolete by the time of their induction in 2015/24!! But are they!? They're not.

I will say AMCA will be even more potent than we envisioned,, because our electronics and Avionics industry will mature! Lessons learnt from operating MK1A and MK2, rebuilding of Su-30MKI avionics and TEDBF's sensor fusion design from ground up, everything will be a stepping stone.

Its a great fortune that we had Su-30 programme with Indian sb-systems. We could build and test without having our own domestic platform. We had people in teams specifically formed for these sub-systems who still make improved versions of these sub-systems for new platforms. Otherwise, mk1 might have taken even longer than the 13 years from first flight to IOC. So if we had a stealth AMCA airframe prototype by lets say 2027, we will have the manufacturing tech to produce a more potent AURA based Bomber by 2040. If you push AMCA prototype by 5 more years to 2032 to make room for Tejas mk-2, you are holding Indian aerospace progress hostage to DRDO's whims.

VishnuS wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023 10:15 Coming to Payload, Why do you think Su 30MKI is just only bomber!! It is our Air Superiority Fighter, that can also act as Mini AWACS! If you want to see Su 30MKI as just a bomber why didn't you consider Aura as it's replacement and directly went to NGAD or B21!?

Su-27 was the best the soviets had against NATO defenses. They had them in far greater numbers than we do. So they had quality and quantity of Su-27. Numerous small awacs work in this situation. It had to punch through NATO defense as the tip of Soviet air offense. It had top-notch technology the Soviets had then and we could never buy it. We got the 3rd world Mig-29 version. Once USSR just ceased to exist and left an economic mess for Russia to clean up, Russia sold it at rock bottom prices to everybody. Russia of course marketed it like how USA is marketing F-35 as the quarterback in the sky. That is when We bought Su-30 as a counter to china buying Su-27 and replace our retiring canberra bombers. AMCA can never match Su-30 pedigree. I would love for AMCA to act like a full fledged bomber, AWACS and refueling aircraft to replace Su-30. But that would be like pulling out specs from IAF's playbook. Fighter aircraft don't generate the electrical power needed for awacs role and SU-30 engine is quite primitive. It can't even power a more powerful radar than what it currently has. We have to improve T/R modules and signal processing computers to achieve better range. It is better to employ LEO satellites to track Pakistan's and chinese assets using AI powered computers. So that their numbers advantage does not turn into battlefield advantage.

VishnuS wrote: ↑29 Oct 2023 10:15 Bro, let's not even get into the work that has gone into LCA MK2, it's almost a new design from scratch there is less than 20% that came from MK1. If you want to learn about them go to DefExpo 2024, the ticket could be around 5K, maybe we could meet there!!

Dude, as much as I admire the amount of work that Dr Girish Shantaram Deodhare and his team have done. The whole gamut of Tejas, Saras, Rustam and Kaveri programs have till now been jobs programs for DRDO scientists. I have been following Tejas mk-2 since 2016 and the design has been frozen since 2019. But PDR and CDR were dragged till 2021 and funds for production were released only last year. I'm not convinced the amount of time and resources spent for mk2 will make a large difference to the user compared to mk1. The only consequential work till now has been a summary PPT linking mk2 as consequential for all the other programs. But I see the Engineering work to pair a couple of F414 engines to an airframe as far more important work. If that is being postponed because manpower to dedicated to mk2, then it is the nation's loss.

I'm not against Tejas mk2 or DRDO or HAL. But I do feel that they lack a sense of urgency to finish things. The whole eco system functions that way. But DRDO's charter which says they have to agree to develop any new technology in-house is a big cause for the delays. If you look at my below post, I had argued for a 50 more mk1 order as a hedge to mk2 and saw HLFT-42 as superfluous. But with this new 97 order, I can easily see that Tejas mk2 has become superfuous. IAF is on-board with the idea of more mk1a. I see it as a good sign of being realistic. When you have 3 lines set up to manufacture aircraft @ 24 per annum. It is foolish to disrupt that for a mere production run of 108 aircraft. If you want to build a new aircraft, open a new line, iron out production issues and replace existing production.

BenG wrote: ↑27 Jan 2023 00:44 If timeline for mk2 is slipping, IAF should evaluate progress of Tejas mk1 trainer and order 40 mk1a trainers. Tejas mk1 is the bird we have in hand. Too much of criticism by IAF has not done any good these 3 decades. It'll not do any more now. We need numbers in fighter aircraft and the twin-seat version will aid in development of CATS warrior and other programs like LIFT. IAF and HAL can look at this angle.
HAL and IAF blame game is not useful. IAF should not be too stubborn. Our 'Import my air force' chief should also wait till next election to sign a couple of more Rafale squadrons with Navy getting a few leased or bought for Vikrant.

"Adding CFTs enables it to retain stealth for much longer than normal and helps the mission overall. "
The above post is the perfect example of using latest machines to fight the last war. Flying low consumes fuel. But gives an element of visibility from radar. Stealth aircraft fly high and don't need as much fuel. CFT is useless for stealth aircraft. Besides you are compromising 10 years research info on stealth airframe design to implement a dumb idea.

I'm hopeful about Tejas mk1a. But definitely not by March 2024. I'll glad if I'm proven wrong. However I know reality and keep my expectations in check.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Nov 2023 13:37

YashG wrote: ↑25 Oct 2023 14:13 I hope Jaishankar will be able to unlock one export order for LCA. He is the only minister who will not go into inaction in election year. Jet sales is somewhat geopolitics and part curry favors. SoKo are great at it - that is how they are selling it big. SoKo has both good product + good sales team. We only have good product. But Jaishankar is a great salesman. I hope he can cover for the bad sales machinery we have.

Why so much urge to export when we have our squadrons to replace?

Last I heard, Egypt was interested. Imagine Egypt using LCAs against Israel. How do you propose to deal with that? As long as LCA continues to have phoren engine and components like MB ejection seats etc, its export to non-NATO countries will be a mirage.

Arms exports are not just to make money, its for power projection as well, sometimes by selective denial. I'm not sure our MIC, EAM or policy frameworks are there yet. May be a decade from now. Until then, keep building for our own needs. Dr SJ has enough to do right now, we need to generate more capable leaders like him.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Nov 2023 18:37

BenG wrote: ↑01 Nov 2023 12:49 I'm hopeful about Tejas mk1a. But definitely not by March 2024. I'll glad if I'm proven wrong. However I know reality and keep my expectations in check.

Your concerns are best addressed by this sentence in your post.

Nothing comes on time in military projects. And in India, our bureaucracy and our politics always ensures that happens. The Tejas program is running a similar path. The AMCA and TEDBF programs will not be any different either. Even the MMRCA/MRFA program is now running into 2+ decades. Thus if the expectation is that projects will arrive on a timely manner, with timelines set by the local OEM, you will always be disappointed. The unfortunate reality - due to these bureaucratic delays - is that many will die (in crashes operating aging platforms) and the desired capability will likely not be available when needed. And delays in India is not measured in years, but by decades. Nothing will come on time - not Tejas Mk2, not AMCA, not TEDBF or anything else.

But all is not doom and gloom either. There is a measurable, proven change towards self reliance and production improvements. That is primarily due to the on-going global conflicts, which has forced our services to look at platforms / capabilities within the country. There is no other choice now. Forget the trusted source (Russia) for our services, which existed for decades...even the Western nations will find it challenging to meet our Govt's stringent Make in India requirements. I never expected an order beyond the 83 Tejas Mk1A contract, but now that has become certain. And that is coming primarily out of sheer necessity. The MRFA is nowhere on the horizon. The strength (and more importantly the capability) is dangerously low in the IAF and ordering additional Mk1As - despite the delays - will still come much quicker than the MRFA.

The only way to circumvent the bureaucratic delays is to suspend democracy in India. But who is game for that scenario? When Xi Winnie Pooh Bear wants 750 J-10s and 500 J-20s for the PLAAF, there is no one to question him. There are no public defence acquisition councils that exist, like in India. There is no opposition to question this purchase or whether it is value for money. There is no running to Supreme Court, at the slightest hint of impropriety. Pooh Bear is the all seeing eye of Sauron i.e. Govt, Bureaucracy, Opposition, Supreme Court, Defence Councils, etc. He is all of that rolled into one entity ---> The Supreme Leader of the People's Republic of China.

Because in the absence of communism and autocracy, you will have delays. And that is something we have to live with. One cannot compare the political realities of India with that of China. No matter how one slices it, this reality will always exist in India. Once we realize that reality, then decision making becomes much easier. After 10 years of BJP rule, there has been measurable progress...but when you look at the Mount Everest of Inertia that still exists in India, we still have a long way to go. But lets not get our undies in a twist, because MK1A may not come on time. If it does not, so be it.

bala · Post by **bala** » 01 Nov 2023 19:13

BenG wrote:The whole gamut of Tejas, Saras, Rustam and Kaveri programs have till now been jobs programs for DRDO scientists.

Who else do you think should be involved in such jobs? I would rather spend the money on India talent for such programs and DRDO is best suited, no the private sector is not best suited. Even if DRDO scientists don't progress it is okay, since they have other successes, all of this is par for the course. Setting up a MIC is not an easy job it takes time. Currently all the foreign vendors are busy supplying stuff for the numerous wars raging around the world. They don't have anything to spare.

It is time for the IAF to co-opt Indian DRDO and work together, much like the Navy does (e.g. nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers, Naval LCA, TEDBF, etc). The India Army has leaped forward in helicopters by actively cooperating with HAL and now has a larger fleet than the IAF. Talking about radars, the Su-30MKI will be refitted with DRDO's virupaksha radar and many other things in Su-30MKI are going to be upgraded in India. It is time for the IAF to actively and genuinely work with HAL and zero in on further development of the aircraft line-up. The LCA Tejas is good for taking on our neighbors. Just imagine a barrage of Tejas, Rafale and Su-30MKI on the Pukes. Add in Prachand/LCH, the IAF can reign supreme in no time.

hgupta · Post by **hgupta** » 01 Nov 2023 19:55

Rakesh,

this kind of thinking is fine if we know that the enemy will not attack us before we are ready. As you so often stated, reality exists. Well the current reality is that China will not wait for us to get ready. China will attack us before we are ever ready at a time and place of their choosing. And given our current state of our military readiness and capabilities, India will suffer lots of casualties and potentially permanent loss of land.

There needs to be a sense of urgency in all across the spectrum of the Indian military, civil bureaucracy, research organizations, and defense companies.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Nov 2023 20:12

hgupta wrote: ↑01 Nov 2023 19:55 this kind of thinking is fine if we know that the enemy will not attack us before we are ready. As you so often stated, reality exists. Well the current reality is that China will not wait for us to get ready. China will attack us before we are ever ready at a time and place of their choosing. And given our current state of our military readiness and capabilities, India will suffer lots of casualties and potentially permanent loss of land.

Since the status quo is being maintained, then it will be more of the same.

Only difference being this time around - unlike 1962 - with a 24/7 news cycle media, the losses will be acutely felt.

One can hope that adequate measures are being taken, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

hgupta wrote: ↑01 Nov 2023 19:55There needs to be a sense of urgency in all across the spectrum of the Indian military, civil bureaucracy, research organizations, and defense companies.

This is easier said than done Saar. All we can do is hope that the plan that HAL Chairman recently spoke about the Mk1A production, works out to be true.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 02 Nov 2023 21:58

Cyrano wrote: ↑01 Nov 2023 13:37
YashG wrote: ↑25 Oct 2023 14:13 I hope Jaishankar will be able to unlock one export order for LCA. He is the only minister who will not go into inaction in election year. Jet sales is somewhat geopolitics and part curry favors. SoKo are great at it - that is how they are selling it big. SoKo has both good product + good sales team. We only have good product. But Jaishankar is a great salesman. I hope he can cover for the bad sales machinery we have.
Why so much urge to export when we have our squadrons to replace?

Last I heard, Egypt was interested. Imagine Egypt using LCAs against Israel. How do you propose to deal with that? As long as LCA continues to have phoren engine and components like MB ejection seats etc, its export to non-NATO countries will be a mirage.

Arms exports are not just to make money, its for power projection as well, sometimes by selective denial. I'm not sure our MIC, EAM or policy frameworks are there yet. May be a decade from now. Until then, keep building for our own needs. Dr SJ has enough to do right now, we need to generate more capable leaders like him.

if LCA gets exported, it will seal the fate of imports and also will be a slap on the face of import lobby.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Nov 2023 19:49

https://x.com/writetake/status/1722244497848078635?s=20 ---> NAL has inked a ToT pact with HAL for manufacturing BMI engine bay door for the Tejas Mk1A series. NAL has developed several composite parts for the Tejas, like fin & rudder, wing spars, wing fuselage fairings, fairings blocks, centre fuselage parts & under carriage doors.

https://x.com/writetake/status/1722250021914165756?s=20 ---> Composite engine door parts from NAL for Tejas program can withstand temp up to 200°C. These structures developed using carbon-epoxy prepreg material system have undergone qualification tests in the form of structural loading at 180°C.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 08 Nov 2023 20:37

Just casually kept on the grass in true Desi style

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 08 Nov 2023 23:30

Rakesh wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023 18:34
ashishvikas wrote: ↑24 Oct 2023 10:40 Ramping up capacity, prepared to execute big orders: HAL chief
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 82823.html
24 Oct 2023, By Rahul Singh
^^^^
https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1716685 ... 99935?s=20 ---> Key points:

- Safran HAL JV for IMRH engines soon, production in 4 years. IMRH by 2031.
- Mk-1A delivery 24/year by 2025-26
- Mk-1A near to CEMILAC clearance
- LCH ~ 25/year for 156 units
- GE F414 deal in an year (fingers crossed)
- 84 Su-30 MKI Uttam + upgrade will not involve any foreign OEM

I fail to understand why we are still looking to make 24 yearly, @24/year we need atleast 7 years to complete the manufacturing of (83 + 97) MK1A's. Forget about exports if any that we might get.
So we will be making it till 2031?
So when are we going to start assembly line manufacturing of Mk2?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Nov 2023 23:45

rajsunder wrote: ↑08 Nov 2023 23:30 I fail to understand why we are still looking to make 24 yearly, @24/year we need at least 7 years to complete the manufacturing of (83 + 97) MK1A's. Forget about exports if any that we might get.
So we will be making it till 2031?
So when are we going to start assembly line manufacturing of Mk2?

Tejas Mk1A production will continue post 2030. The timeframe you have indicated above is more or less on point, provided HAL hits the 24+ mark a year. All indications point to that i.e. HAL is on schedule to deliver the first Mk1A airframe.

Tejas Mk2 will start production right when the Mk1A production is complete. The first tranche of Mk2s is six squadrons. That is the plan.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Nov 2023 19:36

Not the news I wanted to hear at the cusp of the second tranche being ordered...

At India-US 2+2 ministerial dialogue on Friday, India likely to take up F404 engines supply delay
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 513428.ece
08 Nov 2023

The GE has already handed over 75 such engines to the manufacturer of the Tejas, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), post 1986 and an additional 99 F404-GE-IN20 engines, having better thrust, are on order for which the delivery was to commence from August, this year, but has not happened so far, Defence Ministry sources said.

Government officials wonder if the US can meet the demand of South Korea for the same engines for their supersonic trainer T-50 Golden Eagle, why not to India. The delay, if prolonged, in supply of F404-GE-IN20 engines can impact the Tejas-Mk IAs production timelines. The HAL, as per the 2021 contractual obligation, has to supply 83 LCA Mk IAs to Indian Air Force by 2029 but the handing over has been preponed due to its enhanced production capacity. IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari, however, had recently announced that they are considering acquiring another 97 Tejas Mk-IAs which would be worth 67,000 crore to meet its operational fleet requirement.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Nov 2023 22:33

Murphy's law when you become dependent on Americans!

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 Nov 2023 23:01

Hope we make it clear that follow-on orders of MQ-9s, P8Is etc are all dependent on delivery of engines

brvarsh · Post by **brvarsh** » 10 Nov 2023 01:57

US will try to deter the Tejas program with delays and the only solution is to re-engineer from the 75 engines we have and improve upon it. Trusting a nation that we end up competing with (in that segment) is not going to go good.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 10 Nov 2023 02:19

Keep up the 2+2 dialogues, keep signing agreements and wait forever for any meaningful tech. Modi will also find out that US MIC has its own mind. They can wait him out and then start again with the next guy.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 10 Nov 2023 07:18

US Govt is upto it's old tricks again. Shylock it seems will get his pound of flesh.

HAL should be able to spare a couple of f404 in20 engines delivered for first 40 tejas mk1 orders to get mk1a certifications completed without delays.

It is circumstances like this that make me see Kaveri engine as a useful jobs programme. US Govt will relent and supply mk1a engines most likely. But we need to put in all our energies including private sector players like gkn aerospace and finish that 90 kn variant that has been in the news lately. The first engine change for current tejas mk1 should be Kaveri mk1 even if the thrust is 80 kn and engine life is just 500 hours. We should get a reliable engine certified. Get the damn testbed setup using iaf il-76 or ex-airindia 767. Just lease some kc-390 for refueling and cargo transport if needed.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Nov 2023 23:10

https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1725847788037243381?s=20 ---> Uttam Radar Assembly for LCA Mk1A.

https://x.com/officialTatya_1/status/17 ... 64432?s=20 ---> ASPJ for Tejas Mk1A.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Nov 2023 23:25

https://x.com/ANI/status/1725906825718170061?s=20 ---> Indian Air Force is working on a project to develop an indigenous jammer pod for the homegrown LCA Mark 1A fighter aircraft. IAF’s Base Repair Depots have been tasked to indigenize many of the equipment required on its fighter and transport aircraft and other weapon systems and cut down imports: IAF officials.