Why We Need Pokhran-3

[Pratyush]

What is being discussed on this thread that cannot be discussed on the Deterrence thread.

[la.khan]

I agree with the Mt devices. But where would you test them? I thought I remembered in 1998 that they deliberately dialed down the yield not to inflict collateral damage or a radiation leak on the nomadic population that lived near Pokhran.

Pokhran is not a densely populated area. I am sure larger devices can be tested with proper compensation to the nearby residents. (Not more than 10,000 people or ~3000 houses. Meanwhile India built 2.5 million bpl housing in the past 5 years, or half a million houses per year). Another option is Lakshadweep.
...

It is only India that needs $*it to hit the fan before we think of resumption of nuclear tests to pursue the Holy Grail of multi-megaton weapons. We resume nuclear tests because we wish to possess MT range. Ukraine, Israel, Hamas, PRC, Taiwan, US, sanctions are all excuses to do nothing.

If India ever decides to pursue a thermonuclear weapon in MT range, Pokhran and/or Lakshadweep will not be able to handle the fallout. These are very close to population centres. US & UK have Nevada, USSR/Russia has Siberia, PRC has Lop Nor. All these are very remote areas, away from their populations. France has the same problem as us, so they decided to test in Murora Atoll, sothern Pacific. Half way across the world from France.

One option is to test in the vast expanse of the Indian Ocean. But because it is in international waters, we have to inform the international community about our test in advance. So, if we do so, expect every country's spy satellites to have their eyes on the site. Imagine the diplomatic pressure on Nai Dilli. We need to be brazen about our pursuit of this goal. Brazen that comes with USD trillion economy (put your preferred number here 3-5-8-10-whatever here).

However, one benefit is that p@kis cannot test a MT nuke as they don't have the financial, technological, logistical wherewithal to pull off something similar. Unless, US/PRC decide to help them. If they do, they can have no plausible deniability. They will be seen aiding & abetting p@ki effort to acquire thermonuclear weapons.

Some things I detest about India's nuclear testing is that it is too infrequent, furtively run into the Rajasthan desert when nobody is looking and carry out a test and indulge in jingoistic thest thumping. All this over a lame @$$ kT test. I wish our leaders, bureaucrats, media, public were more mature and brazen.

[williams]

Gentlemen, If India needs to be a pole then it should possess every weapon that can keep the enemy at bay. But if you want to build an MT weapon, you cannot simply do one test. You need to do several tests several times over a long period of time to observe, improve, and optimize. Remember the Chinese took more than 40 years to conduct their 47 tests. India cannot keep looking for geopolitical windows to do such tests. Also making assumptions of sanity among the Western powers on their reaction to our tests during a geopolitical window is quite dangerous and we'll put our country behind without even fighting a war or using such weapons. We missed a crucial window between 1974 to 1998 to continue to conduct these tests and improve the weapon design to a point where improvement could be made without hard testing. Now if we need to get up to speed we need to conduct a lot many tests. Even grass-eating NK has tested their mall 6 times.

So I am still skeptical about this argument that we have a geopolitical window to start testing. If India deems it necessary to have an MT weapon that is more of a priority than economic and technological access to Western sources then she should simply declare that as a policy and start testing. Make no mistake there will be sanctions and India will not get a seat at the cool table. Pakis will become a munna again in more explicit terms and business with China will go on. Do you all think leaders combined with our babus will agree to such a thing? Most of their kiddos are studying and/or living in Western countries.

What are we talking about here? Even a strong govt with a thumping majority could not implement more simple things like CAA and Agricultural reform. How is the ruling party going to explain the rationale for eating grass as we develop our MT weapons? They will go out of power in no time. We need the economic withal to employ our youth in the country (ie no more long queues to get visas to get out of the country) and provide better living standards if we need their support to build something like this. If that won't work we need to have a totalitarian regime similar to CCP to work all these out without elections and political pandering.

I very much disagree with your arguments. Why not also invite British back in, with the hope that this will unlock more access to Western economic resources. Where do you draw the line, sir? We need to have massive nuclear strategic deterrent power that will keep the Chinese off us. Westerners cannot sanction us cost-free. They need us too. With a more powerful nuclear strategic deterrent, we could then more confidently engage the Chinese -- and even selectively tilt in their direction if the West harasses us too much over our N-tests. West cannot have their cake and eat it too. It cannot have their much-desired Quad containment cooperation while keeping us down and on the ropes at the mercy of the Chinese.
We face Mega-Threats, and these need Mega-Deterrence, and that means Mega-ton nukes. We also need the little mini-nukes too. And we could benefit from gathering enough data for hydronuclear testing and numerical simulation.

I did not disagree that we need a massive nuclear strategic deterrent. The question is how and when. What does India offer to the West that they think is invaluable to allow us to build our megaton nuclear weapon? We are still buying weapons with advanced technology from them. In return, we vaguely support them in their pursuit to contain China. Our trade balance is in the negative, and any reverse in the services we export hardly makes a dent in their economies. Why has India not declared Agni's range anything more than 5000 KM? What are we afraid of? Why are they still supplying weapons to the Pakis, knowing that they will be used against India? The point is we have grown bigger but not big enough to dictate terms with impunity. Quad is not an alliance. It is a friendly forum to exchange views.

We invited the western sahibs the moment we went to the UN for PoK and Northern Areas. We were stupid enough to not even detect a highway constructed on our soil and slept when Tibet is occupied by the Chinese morons. We have lost 43,000 sq km of land to China. We withdrew from the Kailash range the moment China wanted to negotiate, and now the status quo has not returned on the ground. These are historical challenges, and the Modi govt is threading the needle to keep our economy growing while keeping our strategic options independent and open. Developing and testing megaton nuclear weapons is not on their radar anytime soon.

[sanman]

I did not disagree that we need a massive nuclear strategic deterrent. The question is how and when. What does India offer to the West that they think is invaluable to allow us to build our megaton nuclear weapon? We are still buying weapons with advanced technology from them.

You've just said it - we're BUYING - they're not giving weapons for free - they NEED OUR MONEY.

In return, we vaguely support them in their pursuit to contain China. Our trade balance is in the negative, and any reverse in the services we export hardly makes a dent in their economies. Why has India not declared Agni's range anything more than 5000 KM? What are we afraid of? Why are they still supplying weapons to the Pakis, knowing that they will be used against India? The point is we have grown bigger but not big enough to dictate terms with impunity. Quad is not an alliance. It is a friendly forum to exchange views.

Declaring Agni range is of little consequence. Those who know it can target them know it, and that's enough.
West are still supplying weapons to Pakis because we don't have enough leverage and aren't seen as important enough to matter. Pokhran-3 can help change that calculus too.

We invited the western sahibs the moment we went to the UN for PoK and Northern Areas. We were stupid enough to not even detect a highway constructed on our soil and slept when Tibet is occupied by the Chinese morons. We have lost 43,000 sq km of land to China. We withdrew from the Kailash range the moment China wanted to negotiate, and now the status quo has not returned on the ground. These are historical challenges, and the Modi govt is threading the needle to keep our economy growing while keeping our strategic options independent and open. Developing and testing megaton nuclear weapons is not on their radar anytime soon.

Again, a stronger nuclear deterrent is mainly aimed at China, and would do a lot to change Chinese perceptions of us as easy low-cost pushovers.
China is current getting a big free ride by benefiting from Western deterrence against Indian N-testing. Goodness knows that China itself has no way to deter us from this -- it's only their Western helpers who deter us. We need to force all of their hands -- and the best time to do it is now, when our Western inhibitors are distracted.

[madhu]

Why do we need to test MT size? Can't we test KT size to recalibrate our nuclear weapons? More over there were some questions raised on the yield of our weapons. We could demonstrate that.

It's a golden chance to test if US does one, if we miss we might not get this chance again.

[drnayar]

Why do we need to test MT size? Can't we test KT size to recalibrate our nuclear weapons? More over there were some questions raised on the yield of our weapons. We could demonstrate that.

It's a golden chance to test if US does one, if we miss we might not get this chance again.

MT is either boosted fission or fusion weapons , more complex design. When india does test it would be to refine more designs of these two and battlefield tactical neutron warheads

[williams]

You've just said it - we're BUYING - they're not giving weapons for free - they NEED OUR MONEY.

India's latest defense trade import with the US is around 20 billion USD/year, and France's is 10 billion USD/year. About 31 billion/year USD in non-defense imports come from the US, and less than 10 billion/year USD comes from Europe. That is 0.3% of total US and 0.6% of European exports yearly. They need our money, but it is not like they cannot prevail without it. They will never exchange that money for another giant, unpredictable, and imaginative superpower sitting in the middle of the Indian Ocean with Megaton Nuclear weapons threatening their major cities. Their deep-state strategists shiver at that nightmare scenario that we Indians do not yet understand.

Again, I appreciate your spirit and the need for these weapons. I am fully with you on that, but I am not ready to assume that the US and Europe will sit quiet when we start testing and building these weapons to perfection. They will do everything in their power to sabotage our plans. If India needs to do something, she will have to do it despite the economic and military roadblocks they will throw India's way. Mind you, they sabotaged our space program and pushed us behind by at least a decade. The same goes for the Tejas program. Today, we keep harping about Quad and LEMOA, but there has yet to be any significant strategic help from the US on our strategic priorities.

Our current Govt has made many strides in many strategic priorities, but we lack the killer instinct and agility that is shown by some powers to run towards our strategic goals.

[NRao]

You've just said it - we're BUYING - they're not giving weapons for free - they NEED OUR MONEY.

India's latest defense trade import with the US is around 20 billion USD/year, and France's is 10 billion USD/year. About 31 billion/year USD in non-defense imports come from the US, and less than 10 billion/year USD comes from Europe. That is 0.3% of total US and 0.6% of European exports yearly. They need our money, but it is not like they cannot prevail without it. They will never exchange that money for another giant, unpredictable, and imaginative superpower sitting in the middle of the Indian Ocean with Megaton Nuclear weapons threatening their major cities. Their deep-state strategists shiver at that nightmare scenario that we Indians do not yet understand.

.......

What is the % for each of the companies selling to Bharat?

The nations can prevail, but would the companies give up the billions? Doubt it.

And, despite it being a miniscule amount for the nation, it is a lot for the company. And, the politicians listen to the companies. And, the makes sense.

[pravula]

Simple question. How many MT devices does US have? IIRC, they (Biden admin) are trying to sunset their last MT series (b-83) and replace them with <180kt packages.

Found this a couple of days ago: https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... vity-bomb/

[sudeepj]

Simple question. How many MT devices does US have? IIRC, they (Biden admin) are trying to sunset their last MT series (b-83) and replace them with <180kt packages.

Found this a couple of days ago: https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... vity-bomb/

1. This happened in a context of strategic de-escalation with Russia/China, both rational enemies.
2. The newest weapon to be deployed by Russia is 100MegaTons, and they have withdrawn from many test ban treaties. So the trend of smaller weapons is reversed.
3. If we dont build a MegaTon weapon, we should be ready for KT hits from Pakistan in the next few to several years, just like Hamas attacked Israel - with the best airforce in the entire region - on hang gliders. They will be willing to absorb KT level hits, as long as they can drag us back a decade or two, making us miss our demographic window and the economic opportunity in the world today.
4. The only way to deter Pak from the Hamas strategy is to own MegaTon weapons, and confirm to Pak that we will kill every last Pakistani if they hit us with even a single KT weapon. With MT weapons, this is doable with the limited number of tubs and missiles we have. Only if they are completely destroyed, and we shrug off their odd hit and move on, will they be deterred.
5. With KT weapons, we cant do a first hit or a revenge hit on any of Pak sponsors. We have 1-10% of their mega tonnage and the very thought is laughable. If we hit them with our KT weapons, we invite a genocidal MT response (in addition to a Pak attack that merely sets us back 10-20 years) and its completely irrational.

Given the nature of our adversary, this is the rational thing to do! Arm Pak, let it commit suicide, also kill or very seriously injure India. Then deal with the consequences. In a time of peace, such ideas were unthinkable. In times of war, when people are desperate for survival, and kinder-gentler ideas are weakened by non-stop conflict, this is the rational thing to do! This is what states have done historically! So we need to prepare.

Here is Ashley Tellis advocating similar ideas.

https://indianexpress.com/article/idea- ... t-8239499/

[pravula]

4. The only way to deter Pak from the Hamas strategy is to own MegaTon weapons, and confirm to Pak that we will kill every last Pakistani if they hit us with even a single KT weapon. With MT weapons, this is doable with the limited number of tubs and missiles we have. Only if they are completely destroyed, and we shrug off their odd hit and move on, will they be deterred.

That doesn’t seem feasible from just upgrading to MT level imho. Curious, did anyone calculate how many 300kt hits does it take to say, “kill every single person” in a 25 by 25 km metro vs 100MT hits?

[williams]

4. The only way to deter Pak from the Hamas strategy is to own MegaTon weapons, and confirm to Pak that we will kill every last Pakistani if they hit us with even a single KT weapon. With MT weapons, this is doable with the limited number of tubs and missiles we have. Only if they are completely destroyed, and we shrug off their odd hit and move on, will they be deterred.

That doesn’t seem feasible from just upgrading to MT level imho. Curious, did anyone calculate how many 300kt hits does it take to say, “kill every single person” in a 25 by 25 km metro vs 100MT hits?

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

You can check it out.

[VKumar]

I doubt if pakis care about how many of their own will be killed. Their focus is slaughter od Hindus.

[williams]

For Pakis you just need to make sure their leadership - General Sahibs, Feudal Lords, and their families are in the line of fire. The country is in shambles so bombing into the stone age means nothing to the leadership as long as they are protected.

[Roop]

For Pakis you just need to make sure their leadership - General Sahibs, Feudal Lords, and their families are in the line of fire.

This is a problem unrelated to nuclear weapons. To bring the Paki ashrafiya and their familes to justice, you would need to send out Mossad-style hit teams to various locations in US/UK/Canada/Australia -- that's where these Paki elite are, not in some rat-infested mohalla in Lahore/Sialkot/Gujranwala.

[sanman]

Look who's building newer bombs

[sudeepj]

Look who's building newer bombs

And 360Kilotons, not a 100 KT device that 'can easily scale up to 200KT'.

[sanman]

And 360Kilotons, not a 100 KT device that 'can easily scale up to 200KT'.

new tactical nuke

[VishnuS]

There is something known as 80-20 rule in electronic gadgets, in other words, you get 80% of the benefits for 20% of the cost.l, if you want some of those 20% benefits, you need to pay extra!

But when it comes to Nuclear Weapons, tell me what is that we're missing by not having a Tried and Tested MT nuke weapon....

The Key Point here is Tried and Tested! Do we already have a MT Nuke, only a select few knows and only they will know....

What do we gain by testing a MT Nuke except the ire of the rest of the world, sure we're buying stuff and we're needed as counterbalance to China, but remember folks west buys even more shit from China and that didn't stop Sanctions!?

There are some who advocate for another round of nuke testing and that is going to cost us our development and progress....

If you have fire insurance, it doesn't mean you burn your house unnecessarily....

There are times to flex muscles and there are times to flex our purse and there is time to quietly back down, another round of Nuke Testing does nothing except hurt our economy.

[sanman]

There is something known as 80-20 rule in electronic gadgets, in other words, you get 80% of the benefits for 20% of the cost.l, if you want some of those 20% benefits, you need to pay extra!

But when it comes to Nuclear Weapons, tell me what is that we're missing by not having a Tried and Tested MT nuke weapon....

The Key Point here is Tried and Tested! Do we already have a MT Nuke, only a select few knows and only they will know....

What do we gain by testing a MT Nuke except the ire of the rest of the world, sure we're buying stuff and we're needed as counterbalance to China, but remember folks west buys even more shit from China and that didn't stop Sanctions!?

There are some who advocate for another round of nuke testing and that is going to cost us our development and progress....

If you have fire insurance, it doesn't mean you burn your house unnecessarily....

There are times to flex muscles and there are times to flex our purse and there is time to quietly back down, another round of Nuke Testing does nothing except hurt our economy.

Untested nuke is worthless. Thermonuclear especially is something which is significantly trickier than doing basic fission nukes.
We should have at least done a thermonuclear test. The failure of Pokhran-2 to demonstrate a usable thermonuclear device was a serious shortfall.

[VishnuS]

Untested nuke is worthless. Thermonuclear especially is something which is significantly trickier than doing basic fission nukes.
We should have at least done a thermonuclear test. The failure of Pokhran-2 to demonstrate a usable thermonuclear device was a serious shortfall.

Do China/Pakistan think that there is no risk of MAD because we have only 40KT Nukes and no 1MT Nuke!?

No right... Nobody in their right mind thinks that since India just has 100 40KT nukes, we can nuke them and escape the consequences of MAD!

That fear itself fulfills the idea and purpose of Nukes.

Now, yes, we should have done multiple tests during Pokran 2 itself, but doing it now is stupid.

Yeah, don't bring the logic of US is doing it, so let me do...

Coming to Pokran 2, succesful Nuke Explosion itself is enough to put the fear of MAD. Now coming to the failure part, one of five designs (that validate Thermo Nuclear Design) had failed, failure is admitted by one scientist who wanted to conduct additional experiments on Nuclear Explosion.

Testing Nuke at this point of time is nothing short of burning your economy to the ground!! Today we had hit $4T economy, let's grow and reach a position where our friendship is preferred over enemity!

[KLNMurthy]

Since this is hypothetical:

I think one reason to test is to send a message to the world that all their vilification, threats and domestic instigations against India don’t matter. India will do what it needs to do for its own benefit, no matter what. We are not going to dhoti-shiver because sanctions, paisa jayega, or any other reason.

If it were me, I would make quiet preparations, and announce a week prior to the test date, the exact muhurtam for the test. Tell everyone that we are doing this in India’s national interest, and we will make a note of anyone standing against it during this one week, both foreigners and Indians. And follow through on that. Publish the list, and declare that there will be consequences, TBD, on a case-by-case basis, using policy, legal, and enforcement tools that are available to the government.

Then do the test at the declared muhurtam.

Not everyone will get the message, but at least some will, and that’ll be to India’s benefit.

I think there is great value in sending a clear message like that to our adversaries in the world, and inside India. But we have to be able to mean it, absorb any consequences, and retaliate appropriately.

[Vayutuvan]

I think there is great value in sending a clear message like that to our adversaries in the world, and inside India. But we have to be able to mean it, absorb any consequences, and retaliate appropriately.

Stratgeic intentions should be broadcast clear and wide in no uncertai terms. But some in India are foolish to oppose tranparency on strategic matters but stupid enough to give out tactical advantage. A tactical capability should be left as a surprise on the - real or diplomatic - battle field.

[sanman]

Untested nuke is worthless. Thermonuclear especially is something which is significantly trickier than doing basic fission nukes.
We should have at least done a thermonuclear test. The failure of Pokhran-2 to demonstrate a usable thermonuclear device was a serious shortfall.

Do China/Pakistan think that there is no risk of MAD because we have only 40KT Nukes and no 1MT Nuke!?

It affects the level of credibility of our deterrent.

They've both taken multiple shots at us without fearing any retaliation.

[S_Madhukar]

Nothing stops us from giving messages directly to our enemies rather than doing a nook test just now. Decades ago I would have never imagined the initiatives we did against Kaneda, Chicoms and Bakis.. we need to slip under the radar like a submarine and get to 10T plus economy by which time our conventional strength too would be unignorable. By that time I hope our triad is truly functioning and truly indigenous before it throws something heavy

[VishnuS]

Do China/Pakistan think that there is no risk of MAD because we have only 40KT Nukes and no 1MT Nuke!?

It affects the level of credibility of our deterrent.

They've both taken multiple shots at us without fearing any retaliation.

Did they!?

Do you mean Mumbai attack!? Even if we had Tzar bomba, nothing would have changed!

Do you mean Galwan!? I suggest you read what had happened in the past, starting from Doklam conflict and how BRO's road building efforts made China start the conflict and I have a strong feeling that Manipur issue was created to divert our force from Galwan.

Again, same goes for China, Galwan would have happened even if we had Tzar Bomba.

Why do you think the "No Firearm" was mentioned instead of "No Weapon". To make sure that conflict never escalates....

Bro, your arguments are too weak and they have nothing but jingoism, I get that, I've been there.... In many ways I am a jingo like you, but my thinking compass is Genomics...

To quote a famous General "Army marches on its Stomach" in other words, you need a strong economy to maintain a strong military.

PS. Can you guess the General, let me give you a hint, he is French!

[sanman]

Did they!?

Do you mean Mumbai attack!? Even if we had Tzar bomba, nothing would have changed!

Do you mean Galwan!? I suggest you read what had happened in the past, starting from Doklam conflict and how BRO's road building efforts made China start the conflict and I have a strong feeling that Manipur issue was created to divert our force from Galwan.

Again, same goes for China, Galwan would have happened even if we had Tzar Bomba.

Why do you think the "No Firearm" was mentioned instead of "No Weapon". To make sure that conflict never escalates....

If we had a stronger nuclear forces, the Chinese would be more cautious about escalating against us. Especially if we had lots of tactical nukes.

Bro, your arguments are too weak and they have nothing but jingoism, I get that, I've been there.... In many ways I am a jingo like you, but my thinking compass is Genomics...

I don't see the connection between genomics and military strategy.

To quote a famous General "Army marches on its Stomach" in other words, you need a strong economy to maintain a strong military.

PS. Can you guess the General, let me give you a hint, he is French!

I think Napoleon was talking about logistics rather than economics.

[VishnuS]

If we had a stronger nuclear forces, the Chinese would be more cautious about escalating against us. Especially if we had lots of tactical nukes.

Tactical Nuke is an oxymoron, a waste of fissle material. Do you know our response against any nuclear attack is a full blown nuclear response. We don't care whether the attack is tactical or strategical, then why do you think Chinese response will be any different.

The war ends the minute nuclear missile is fired, the one who fires first is going to be the biggest loser.

Now, coming to the rest of your quotes, let's discuss it personally, I don't want mods to kick us out.

PS. How do I send personal messages!?

[sanman]

If we had a stronger nuclear forces, the Chinese would be more cautious about escalating against us. Especially if we had lots of tactical nukes.

Tactical Nuke is an oxymoron, a waste of fissle material. Do you know our response against any nuclear attack is a full blown nuclear response. We don't care whether the attack is tactical or strategical, then why do you think Chinese response will be any different.

The war ends the minute nuclear missile is fired, the one who fires first is going to be the biggest loser.

No, I disagree - there's an escalation chain.

Now, coming to the rest of your quotes, let's discuss it personally, I don't want mods to kick us out.

PS. How do I send personal messages!?

It's up there on top left.

[Vayutuvan]

I think Napoleon was talking about logistics rather than economics.

Yes, he was talking about soldiers need to eat and supply of victuals. That is part of the of the logitsics, but a critical part. They can't eat artillery shells nor the machine guns.

[ramana]

All please stick to topic.

Also private messages are disabled.

Some idiots used them to sell stuff in.the past.

[venkat_kv]

Did they!?

Do you mean Mumbai attack!? Even if we had Tzar bomba, nothing would have changed!

Do you mean Galwan!? I suggest you read what had happened in the past, starting from Doklam conflict and how BRO's road building efforts made China start the conflict and I have a strong feeling that Manipur issue was created to divert our force from Galwan.

Again, same goes for China, Galwan would have happened even if we had Tzar Bomba.

Why do you think the "No Firearm" was mentioned instead of "No Weapon". To make sure that conflict never escalates....

If we had a stronger nuclear forces, the Chinese would be more cautious about escalating against us. Especially if we had lots of tactical nukes.

Sanman Saar,
I don't think having a megaton nuclear bomb is not going to change the current pin pricks by Pakis or the Chinese. Reason being we are more measured in our response and not mouth off like the pakis in the studios.
We have enough material to deter pakis from a full blown war, but it hasn't stopped terrorism export to Punjab and Kashmir nor did it prevent 26/11 Mumbai. They are always looking to probe something under a certain threshold that doesn't lead to a full scale war. India is also responding in kind with the newer dispensation since 2014. the previous UPA didn't bother to give any public response for the Mumbai attacks.
And to paraphrase a mods earlier suggestion, just because we get an idea doesn't mean it is good. You might need to flesh it out more in terms of positives and negatives for a complete picture.
What are the things that are currently stopping us and if we were to test what is the worst that can happen.
Your point that West needs India, so they will let this pass is not true. the West intends to use India as a leverage against china or russia and keeps pushing levers in that direction. If we were truly important ally for the west as you deem, then Pakis wouldn't have come out of FATF grey list nor would they have got IMF loan and resumed their terror programming.
Qataris sentencing retired naval officers while under the protection of the US doesn't pass the smell test, neither does harboring someone like Pannun or their ambassador making unsolicited offer to mediate in Manipur. The West in general and the US in particular tried the Quad nonsense without any concrete initiatives and are using Pakis/Qataris/Canada's pappu/NGO's to tie down India.

I mean, look at Canada's recent "credible allegation" on Nijjar's death, a nuclear test and you can expect Spain and Germany to join the chorus along with Japan. It will play into Pakis hands that the "current dispensation is destabilizing Sooth Asia" so India must be under sanctions and there are enough imbeciles in the US SD to fall for it along with the Illhan Omar, Ro Khanna types that will push forth legislations sanctioning India.

I would think India needs to stock pile fissile material and in parallel keep research going for newer designs. They can test when India becomes indispensable to the world and if that is at 10T or 20T or even 5T economy, then so be it. After all chinese are being tolerated right now to what they bring in terms of dependencies, otherwise there isn't that much difference between an economy less china and North Korea for the anglo Saxon elite.

[sanman]

Sanman Saar,
I don't think having a megaton nuclear bomb is not going to change the current pin pricks by Pakis or the Chinese. Reason being we are more measured in our response and not mouth off like the pakis in the studios.
We have enough material to deter pakis from a full blown war, but it hasn't stopped terrorism export to Punjab and Kashmir nor did it prevent 26/11 Mumbai. They are always looking to probe something under a certain threshold that doesn't lead to a full scale war. India is also responding in kind with the newer dispensation since 2014. the previous UPA didn't bother to give any public response for the Mumbai attacks.
And to paraphrase a mods earlier suggestion, just because we get an idea doesn't mean it is good. You might need to flesh it out more in terms of positives and negatives for a complete picture.
What are the things that are currently stopping us and if we were to test what is the worst that can happen.
Your point that West needs India, so they will let this pass is not true. the West intends to use India as a leverage against china or russia and keeps pushing levers in that direction. If we were truly important ally for the west as you deem, then Pakis wouldn't have come out of FATF grey list nor would they have got IMF loan and resumed their terror programming.
Qataris sentencing retired naval officers while under the protection of the US doesn't pass the smell test, neither does harboring someone like Pannun or their ambassador making unsolicited offer to mediate in Manipur. The West in general and the US in particular tried the Quad nonsense without any concrete initiatives and are using Pakis/Qataris/Canada's pappu/NGO's to tie down India.

We need to consider the consequences of doing nothing. What do you think will happen from that?

I mean, look at Canada's recent "credible allegation" on Nijjar's death, a nuclear test and you can expect Spain and Germany to join the chorus along with Japan. It will play into Pakis hands that the "current dispensation is destabilizing Sooth Asia" so India must be under sanctions and there are enough imbeciles in the US SD to fall for it along with the Illhan Omar, Ro Khanna types that will push forth legislations sanctioning India.

Canada/Trudeau are free riders on the western security system. Neither do they contribute anything of significance, nor are they particularly at risk as motivation to contribute.

I would think India needs to stock pile fissile material and in parallel keep research going for newer designs. They can test when India becomes indispensable to the world and if that is at 10T or 20T or even 5T economy, then so be it. After all chinese are being tolerated right now to what they bring in terms of dependencies, otherwise there isn't that much difference between an economy less china and North Korea for the anglo Saxon elite.

China's increasingly expanding into not only Indian Ocean, but right under our noses. Look at special Chinese ship in Sri Lanka. They're making that place their colony, which looks ominous for us.

[venkat_kv]

Sanman Saar,
I don't think having a megaton nuclear bomb is not going to change the current pin pricks by Pakis or the Chinese. Reason being we are more measured in our response and not mouth off like the pakis in the studios.
We have enough material to deter pakis from a full blown war, but it hasn't stopped terrorism export to Punjab and Kashmir nor did it prevent 26/11 Mumbai. They are always looking to probe something under a certain threshold that doesn't lead to a full scale war. India is also responding in kind with the newer dispensation since 2014. the previous UPA didn't bother to give any public response for the Mumbai attacks.
And to paraphrase a mods earlier suggestion, just because we get an idea doesn't mean it is good. You might need to flesh it out more in terms of positives and negatives for a complete picture.
What are the things that are currently stopping us and if we were to test what is the worst that can happen.
Your point that West needs India, so they will let this pass is not true. the West intends to use India as a leverage against china or russia and keeps pushing levers in that direction. If we were truly important ally for the west as you deem, then Pakis wouldn't have come out of FATF grey list nor would they have got IMF loan and resumed their terror programming.
Qataris sentencing retired naval officers while under the protection of the US doesn't pass the smell test, neither does harboring someone like Pannun or their ambassador making unsolicited offer to mediate in Manipur. The West in general and the US in particular tried the Quad nonsense without any concrete initiatives and are using Pakis/Qataris/Canada's pappu/NGO's to tie down India.

We need to consider the consequences of doing nothing. What do you think will happen from that?

I mean, look at Canada's recent "credible allegation" on Nijjar's death, a nuclear test and you can expect Spain and Germany to join the chorus along with Japan. It will play into Pakis hands that the "current dispensation is destabilizing Sooth Asia" so India must be under sanctions and there are enough imbeciles in the US SD to fall for it along with the Illhan Omar, Ro Khanna types that will push forth legislations sanctioning India.

Canada/Trudeau are free riders on the western security system. Neither do they contribute anything of significance, nor are they particularly at risk as motivation to contribute.

I would think India needs to stock pile fissile material and in parallel keep research going for newer designs. They can test when India becomes indispensable to the world and if that is at 10T or 20T or even 5T economy, then so be it. After all chinese are being tolerated right now to what they bring in terms of dependencies, otherwise there isn't that much difference between an economy less china and North Korea for the anglo Saxon elite.

China's increasingly expanding into not only Indian Ocean, but right under our noses. Look at special Chinese ship in Sri Lanka. They're making that place their colony, which looks ominous for us.

Sanman Sir,
we are responding in kind, we don't need to brandish nuclear device for everything, you can't keep threatening a megaton if terrorists come in jammu next time. that will cause people to not take you seriously.
Even without megaton device quite a few terrorists went to meet hoors and unknown gunman made all arrangements to that effect.

russia threatened nukes, but that hasn't stopped Ukraine from fighting. there are many reasons for that primarily with Nato supporting them. its the same with China and pakistan who try to use what ever levers they have.

I am saying keep doing the research for megatons and delivery systems, testing can come when you are indispensible to the rest of the world that controls the sanctions lever.