Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 01 Dec 2023 00:55

JTull wrote: ↑29 Nov 2023 01:15 That picture is a heat exchanger (boiler). Completely inappropriate for the news about guns.

It is a boiler drum

srin · Post by **srin** » 01 Dec 2023 07:49

Rakesh wrote: ↑30 Nov 2023 22:34
Rakesh wrote: ↑29 Nov 2023 20:16 https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/1729507661954130052?s=20 ---> Ministry of Defence inks contract with Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited to procure 16 Upgraded Super Rapid Gun Mount & accessories worth ₹2956.89 Cr for Indian Navy. The upgraded SRGM, which will be manufactured by M/s BHEL at its Haridwar Plant, is a medium caliber anti-missile/anti aircraft point defence weapon system which provides a sustained rate of fire and high accuracy.
India Procures 16 Upgraded Super Rapid Naval Gun Systems For Indian Navy
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... dian-navy/
29 Nov 2023

Glad that the hare-brained idea of purchasing BAe Mk45 guns at an atrocious price got finally nixed.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Dec 2023 09:49

This procurement program is pure screwdriver assembly by BHEL.

As the Bharat Forge program is an ab initio development program.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 01 Dec 2023 10:30

Some Qs:
Why is Mod signing with BHEL for gun mount?
Shouldn't the contract be from Navy --> Shipyard --> Gun Mount vendor.

from the links this seem to be for existing & new ships. which ones? how many per ship?
existing ships does not have good guns currently? will there be refit?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Dec 2023 12:26

Warship construction contracts have 2 seperate components.

1) Vendor supplied items.

2) User supplier equipment.

Generally speaking, vendors are responsible for Hull, Propulsion, Habitability, Electrical fittings to support the User supplied equipment

The user is responsible for the procurement of, Radar, weapons and mounts, ammunition and missiles, plus the aviation component, if any.

PS: personally I have been extremely interested in the finding out the time take to complete both sets of procurement.

Because, if people have observed in the past. We have seen that hulls have been sitting in the yard basin for years awaiting the supply of adars and other items. It's this time lag. That causes delay in our naval construction.

mody · Post by **mody** » 01 Dec 2023 18:09

A Deshmukh wrote: ↑01 Dec 2023 10:30 Some Qs:
Why is Mod signing with BHEL for gun mount?
Shouldn't the contract be from Navy --> Shipyard --> Gun Mount vendor.

from the links this seem to be for existing & new ships. which ones? how many per ship?
existing ships does not have good guns currently? will there be refit?

The 76mm SRGM is the Italian OTO Melara 76mm SRGM which is manufactured under license in India by BHEL. Why BHEL? I don't know, but way back sometime in late 1980s or early 90s, when the licensing agreement was negotiated, MOD and GOI selected BHEL for this product.
Now BHEL has upgraded the gun mounts internally and 16 additional units of these are being procured.
The 76mm SRGM is being used on all the frigates in service in the Indian Navy, as well as the P15A and P15B destroyers, as well as the under construction P17A frigates. The P15 Delhi class destroyers are having their Russian 100mm Ak-100 guns being replaced by the upgraded 76mm SRGM from BHEL.
There was also some talk that apart from the upgrade, BHEL had managed to completely indigenize the guns and due to the upgrade tweaks, maybe they might not have to pay the licensing fees to OTO Melara in the future. But currently I cannot find any information with regards to this.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 01 Dec 2023 19:20

India Needs Another Aircraft Carrier: Navy Chief

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Dec 2023 20:23

https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1730 ... 49627?s=20 ---> Good News. Cochin Shipyard launched 3 Anti-Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft.

https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1730 ... 39739?s=20 ---> Mahe, Malvan and Mangrol, the first three ships of 08 x ASW Shallow Water Craft project being built by CSL. The Mahe Class of ships will be equipped with state-of-the-art underwater sensors & r envisaged to undertake anti-submarine operations in coastal waters as well as Low Intensity Maritime Operations (LIMO) and Mine Laying Operations. The ASW SWC ships are 78 m long and displacement is approximately 900 tons, with a maximum speed of 25 knots.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Dec 2023 20:25

https://x.com/delhidefence/status/17304 ... 14025?s=20 ---> We are at the drawing board for the Next Generation Destroyers beyond the Project 15B, of 10,000 tonnes; the timelines for the project to be ready in 05 years: Vice Admiral Sanjay Jasjit Singh, Vice Chief of Naval Staff (Heading the NGD Project) to questions from @delhidefence

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1730559944955687032?s=20 ---> As far as what will fill the interregnum between P-15B and NGD, I would venture based on the information various public shipyards have been releasing that it would be another tranche of Nilgiri Class frigates.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1730586406328914407?s=20 ---> And don't forget the Navy is also going to get 6 x Next Generation Missile Vessels (2,000+ tons) and 8 x Next Generation Corvettes (3,500 tons). Mind you, most other navies, including those of Pakistan and Turkey proudly classify ships with the NGC's displacement/specification as Frigates.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Dec 2023 21:50

https://x.com/_devildog_rv_/status/1730 ... 22749?s=20 ---> Rajmudra design of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj feature on new Indian Navy flag was originally an idea suggested by an Indian Navy sailor during CNS Discussion Forum.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Dec 2023 03:01

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1730559944955687032?s=20

As far as what will fill the interregnum between P-15B and NGD, I would venture based on the information various public shipyards have been releasing that it would be another tranche of Nilgiri-Class frigates.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1730586406328914407

And don't forget the Navy is also going to get 6 x Next Generation Missile Vessels (2000 t plus) and 8 X Next Generation Corvettes (3500 t). Mind you, most other navies, including those of Pakistan and Turkey proudly classify ships with the NGC's displacement/specification as Frigates.

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Dec 2023 07:09

This is very bad. If you take the Visakhapatnam class, it was approved in 2009, contract signed in 2011, lead ship laid down in 2013, launched in 2015, commissioned in 2021. That's 12 years for an existing (Kolkata class) design!

Now, going by the good admiral's remarks, I suspect that the design is not ready and optimistically, approval would be by 2029 (5 years from now, with no delays). So, unless things drastically improve in MDL, assuming 12 year lead time between approval and commissioning we won't get new destroyers till 2041 !

The last of Visakhapatnam class would be commissioned by 2025 at most, so there is going to be a 16 year gap in destroyers coming into service!

If there is no plan for P15C in interim, this would be pretty poor planning on Navy's part. Might also affect the carrier battle group composition once IAC2 is also in service.

I hope this report is wrong and there is a P15C in works.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Dec 2023 08:11

Personally I have always seen a notional P15C/ NGD Light as a 75 % solution to the main NGD program .

As the Navy will have a need for cheaper mid range ship between the very hig end NGD and frigates.

This ship will have the following attributes.

1) Same Radar fit as the NGD.
2) 8000 to 9000 tons displacement.
3) LM 2500 or Kaveri GT.
4) Between 72 to 96, Universal VLS, for long range SAMs, Brahmos, and LACM.
5) 2 embarked 10 ton helo, + drones.

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Dec 2023 10:14

For me, the follow on to P15B needs to have only one improvement: more SAMs - minimum 64, preferably 96. That's all. Everything else is optional.

Anyway, remembering that MDL is a public company, I looked at the latest earnings call transcripts. Here are excerpts:

In addition, from 2014 to 2023, if we consider this period, during these nine years, Mazagaon Dock Shipbuilders has delivered six number of Destroyers, which are the most advanced warships to the Indian Navy, this amounts to an average delivery rate of one destroyer every 18 months.

In addition, we are proud to inform that the last three destroyers of Project 15 Bravo, we have delivered over a period of three years, one in October 21, which was delivered as per the scheduled timelines, another in November 22, which was delivered almost three months ahead of the delivery timelines, and recently on 20th of October 23, which is almost five months before the contractual timelines.

Above is what you get with a good order book.

Below is what happens when you don't have a pipeline:

For the destroyers, there is no project in the pipeline as a follow-on order. Navy is considering a follow-on for P-17A that is not yet crystallized, that is still at the discussion stage in the naval headquarters. And the destroyers, it is the next generation destroyers which are there, that is still not in the horizon. So, right now, we are unable to say anything unless it is firmed up.

The information that is available, we are not in a position to assign any kind of timelines. But yes, we expect eight number of destroyers, maybe likely to be divided on two shipyards, four each. And on a similar line, a follow-on project of P-17A as P-17B, again eight number of frigates expected to be divided over two shipyards. So, considering that MDL has a proven track record with respect to destroyers and MDL is executing the project of P-17A, we are quite hopeful with respect to both these orders as and when they materialize.

Q: Sir, my final question will be on the, we understand that the Next-Generation Corvettes RFP is not yet out. AoN for 8 NGD is also not yet determined as such. So what gives that picture ahead as in how do we say that, yes, we will get this order Corvette maybe by next year and NGD by technically you are qualified to do that because you have already done destroyer. So what gives that confidence that these things will probably translate in a year or two?
A: Yes, see, the Navy has assessed our capacities to build this and also on the capability, there is no question mark. So now the decision has to be taken for the AoN etc. So that is not in our direct control. So all requisite inputs, whenever it is sought, we are transmitting to the naval headquarters and MOD and it has to get processed there. So right now as CMD mentioned earlier, we are unable to put any firm timelines by when we will get this order. So we are ready to receive the order. Our capacities and capabilities are in place.

But below is just sad ... MDL needs to build patrol vessels while waiting for orders

Q: My third question is on this NGO PV orders. I understand that you are doing marquee orders like destroyers and frigates. Why do we have to confine ourselves to something like a patrol vessel? Is there a strategic rationale for this?
A: This is not confining to a lower category vessel. We are definitely, we are the only one who manufacture destroyers and large vessels, but at the same time, there could be periods where the orders for the large vessels are not there. So simply keeping the yard idle and the facilities idle do not make sense and it is always better to have multiple customers and multiple products in your portfolio, which always aids in a better top line and a better bottom line as well.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 02 Dec 2023 12:30

Defence ministry inks Rs 2956 crore contract with BHEL to procure 16 super rapid gun mount for Navy
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 24211.html

The defence ministry on November 28 sealed a Rs 2,956 crore deal with state-run Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd to procure 16 upgraded super rapid gun mount (SRGM) and accessories for Indian Navy. The SRGM is a medium caliber anti-missile and anti-aircraft defence weapon system that provides a sustained rate of fire and high accuracy.

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 02 Dec 2023 13:22

srin wrote: ↑02 Dec 2023 10:14For me, the follow on to P15B needs to have only one improvement: more SAMs - minimum 64, preferably 96. That's all. Everything else is optional.

This is why the country needs to boost its exports., as the mil ind complex develops the companies can't just depend on the home market for orders. Export ..export..no other way.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 02 Dec 2023 21:20

drnayar wrote: ↑02 Dec 2023 13:22
This is why the country needs to boost its exports., as the mil ind complex develops the companies can't just depend on the home market for orders. Export ..export..no other way.

Export customers will buy our products more readily when they see our own forces ordering and using them.

They will be convinced that 1) the products work 2) the industry is there to provide spares/do maintenance/ develop improved versions.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Dec 2023 07:02

VinodTK wrote: ↑01 Dec 2023 19:20
India Needs Another Aircraft Carrier: Navy Chief

This is worth watching.

Some interesting points.
- Same size carrier and more focus on UAVs from the carrier as well.
- Dhruv Mk3 - Navy is reasonably happy, and working on some improvements to blade folding.
- DBMRH - is being explored with HAL. The Navy wants the design to focus on Navy before adaption to Airforce/Army
- 16 operational submarines with high uptime.
-- 12:30 mark (this part needs further clarification)
-- 24 submarines sanctioned by 1999 plan
-- 3 more scorpenes are slated for - paperwork done or being worked
-- I think he is saying p75 is still to be done - so scorpene is not p75???
-- P76 is on the drawing board
- UAVs
-- P8I - mostly used for submarine search
-- 15 Repears will be surface focussed mostly.

That means another 15 new submarines to be produced, divided between the p75 and p76, roughly 8 each.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Dec 2023 07:03

Till the Next Generation destroyer doesn't make an appearance. A P17B and P15C follow-on with amendments/additions would make a lot of sense. Easier to sanction it and we will need it.

mody · Post by **mody** » 04 Dec 2023 17:17

There are supposed to be over 60-69 ships currently under construction for the Indian Navy.
I can gather only the following projects, which are currently on going. Does anyone have information about other projects that are currently under construction:

1). P17A - 7 ships (4 at MDL, 3 GRSE)
2). Shallow Water Anti Submarine Ships - 16 nos. (8 GRSE, 8 CSL)
3). Missile cum ammunition barge - 16 nos. (8 Suryadipta projects, 8 Secon)
4). P15B - 2 ships yet to be commissioned. (MDL)
5). Talwar Class - 4 follow on ships (2 in Russia and 2 at GSL)

Please inform about any other ongoing projects under construction for the navy.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Dec 2023 18:46

Wiki has a good running list ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_the_Indian_Navy

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 04 Dec 2023 20:03

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Dec 2023 21:05

Trust In Neighbours Through Interoperability, Domain Awareness And Enhanced Engagements (TIDE): Navy Chief Admiral Hari Kumar
https://bharatshakti.in/tide-trust-in-n ... ari-kumar/
04 Dec 2023

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 13 Dec 2023 22:46

MDL submits bid for over Rs 20,000 crore project to build 3 new Kalvari class submarines
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 213215425/
13 Dec 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Dec 2023 21:32

India Focuses On Long Range Naval Missiles Development
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... velopment/
14 Dec 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Dec 2023 21:51

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1734654 ... 83134?s=20 ---->

MoD releases RFI to *lease* a Product Tanker for 2.5 years (extendable by two years) for Indian Navy's WNC.

Capacity >= 15,000 Tons of product (LSHSD, Lubricating Oil, feed water in various combinations).

Max speed of at least 12 knots. Vessel should be from 2009 or newer.

FSS stopgap?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Dec 2023 20:21

https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/17 ... 74995?s=20 ---> India's Hindustan Shipyard Ltd is fully ready to commence Construction of first of five Fleet Support Ship (FSS) of 43,000 tons designed indigenously by Hindustan Shipyard Ltd said HSL Chief. It's official that Turkey's consultation was not taken in this project. The Indian Navy to get the first ship by 2028 end.

https://x.com/Aryan_warlord/status/1735 ... 59866?s=20 ---> Awesome to note the Turkish are out and the five 43,000T FSS for the Indian Navy have been designed & design tested indigenously. Great to note @CMD_HSL is ready to begin construction, here's wishing Team HSL all the best in this endeavour.

https://x.com/CMD_HSL/status/1735446047667913021?s=20 ---> HSL is ready to commence construction of one of the largest indigenously designed and built ships of the Indian Navy, the 43,000 ton Fleet Support Ships. Based on validation of ships speed of 20 knots during hydrodynamic studies in tow tank, HSL's basic design is proved and this gives a fillip to the GoI's vision of Aatmanirbhar Bharat.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Dec 2023 02:44

French Price Bids for Indian Navy: 26 Rafale-M and 3 Scorpene Submarines
https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... s-3345250/
22 Dec 2023

Follow-on order of Scorpene Class Subs

Distinguishing features in the new submarines include their integrated combat system (ICS), which will now be indigenous, featuring solutions from Bharat Electronics Limited in collaboration with French suppliers. This ICS constitutes a substantial part of the overall deal value. The new Scorpene submarines are expected to replace their existing 1,250KW MAN diesel engines with Rolls Royce MTU 4000 series engines, assembled in India through a partnership with Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Limited, Kolkata. A Defence Ministry statement mentioned that the additional submarines will have higher indigenous content and will be equipped with an air independent propulsion (AIP) system. This AIP, which has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), will help to enhance the endurance of the subs.

Indian Navy’s six Scorpene Class Subs are operational

Regarding existing submarines, India had procured six Scorpene-class submarines from the Naval Group in a deal signed in October 2005. They were manufactured by MDL through technology transfer. The Navy plans to install DRDO-developed AIP modules during refits of existing Scorpenes, starting with INS Kalvari, likely by the end of next year. To support this initiative, the Naval Group is currently assisting the DRDO in qualifying indigenous suppliers of liquid oxygen tanks and involving integrating the AIP safely, cutting the submarine, and joining it with the new AIP section.

hgupta · Post by **hgupta** » 23 Dec 2023 12:39

ashishvikas wrote: ↑13 Dec 2023 22:46 MDL submits bid for over Rs 20,000 crore project to build 3 new Kalvari class submarines
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 213215425/
13 Dec 2023

At the current rate that is about $800M per boat.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Dec 2023 03:48

hgupta wrote: ↑23 Dec 2023 12:39
At the current rate that is about $800M per boat.

Looking solely at monetary value will not give you a clear picture.

Compare the signed contract (yet to happen!) of the three additional Scorpenes with the first contract of six Scorpenes. Examine the technical differences i.e. endurance, combat capability, etc. How much locally developed systems (i.e. AIP) will be coming on these three boats. When a detailed review is completed, then one can decide whether it is good value for money or not.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Dec 2023 15:33

The Crest of INS Imphal

bala · Post by **bala** » 26 Dec 2023 20:02

Commissioning ceremony of INS IMPHAL

Indian Navy YT

R Charan · Post by **R Charan** » 26 Dec 2023 22:18

INS Imphal, a stealth guided missile destroyer, successfully commissioned into Navy today

On December 26, 2023, at a magnificent ceremony conducted at the Naval Dockyard, Mumbai, INS Imphal, a Project 15B stealth guided missile destroyer, was commissioned into the Indian Navy in the presence of Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh.
https://defence.in/threads/ins-imphal-a ... oday.1236/

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 28 Dec 2023 01:49

thought i would share an interesting bit of info .. " the main reason they hide propellers on submarines. If you can measure the general size, shape, and the number of fins on the screw; you can calculate the sonar signature of the screw. You then add this to your shipboard sonar library to use in helping you identify submarines and ships. It's as simple as that. You wouldn't believe how much time is spent on recording and cataloging sonar signatures" ..someone's observation but to the point.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 28 Dec 2023 07:29

bala wrote: ↑26 Dec 2023 20:02 Commissioning ceremony of INS IMPHAL

Indian Navy YT

[youtube...]3CV2bDAG3bU[/youtube]

I watched the important parts. Goosebumps.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 28 Dec 2023 08:21

drnayar wrote: ↑28 Dec 2023 01:49 ...If you can measure the general size, shape, and the number of fins on the screw; you can calculate the sonar signature of the screw.
...

Also calculations about typical cruise speed and max dash speed ranges.

Russians have been thought to have put dummy screws during construction to throw off the analysts

Neilz · Post by **Neilz** » 29 Dec 2023 17:39

Indian Navy unveils new design for Admirals' Epaulettes influenced from Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj
TOI News Desk / TIMESOFINDIA.COM / Updated: Dec 29, 2023, 13:10 IST

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 371004.cms

From official navy X handle : https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 4475872727

As we usher in the new year #2024, #IndianNavy proudly unveils the new Design of Admirals' Epaulettes. Announced by
@PMOIndia
during #NavyDay2023 at Sindhudurg - the in the new Design, drawn from the Naval Ensign & inspired from Rajmudra of #ChhatrapatiShivajiMaharaj, is a true reflection of our rich maritime heritage.

Adoption of the new design reaffirms our commitment to the two pillars of #PanchPran' - 'Virasat Par Garv' & 'Ghulami ki Mansikta se Mukti '.

#BharatiyaNausena embracing #Bharatiyata in letter and spirit.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 29 Dec 2023 21:58

Why isnt the telescope pointing up

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 29 Dec 2023 22:58

Anujan wrote: ↑29 Dec 2023 21:58 Why isnt the telescope pointing up

Beg pardon, but it is pointing up, isn't it?
I mean the eye piece is at the bottom...

Edit - my apologies.. i realise you meant on the patches

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Jan 2024 09:03

https://x.com/rahulsinghx/status/174019 ... 23453?s=20 ---> Interviewed the CO of INS Imphal on board the destroyer. Capt KK Choudhury spelt out his top priorities, the challenges faced by the commissioning crew of a warship, the multi-mission capabilities of INS Imphal and how it will boost India’s sea power.