Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion

[hgupta]

It is both - ship crew training and air crew training. The ship does not have to go too far out. Just retain enough seaworthiness to be able to train on the high seas not too far from India's shores. It also serve as a backup carrier in times of war.

[Pratyush]

It is both - ship crew training and air crew training. The ship does not have to go too far out. Just retain enough seaworthiness to be able to train on the high seas not too far from India's shores. It also serve as a backup carrier in times of war.

The idea has merits.

However, modern technology has the potential to make certain training requirements obsolete, by the time the Vikramaditya is expected to be relegated to training requirements.

For example, the HAL has started working with optionally manned combat aircraft, with Kiran as a surrogate aircraft.

Over a period of the next 15 to 20 years, we can expect this technology to have matured enough. So that, the automated landing and take off capacity can be integrated with TEDBF and it's successors, being deployed on Indian Aircraft carriers.

Similar to the USN experiment with auto landing on carriers. Using the F 18 as the test beds.

[Rakesh]

It is both - ship crew training and air crew training. The ship does not have to go too far out. Just retain enough seaworthiness to be able to train on the high seas not too far from India's shores. It also serve as a backup carrier in times of war.

Our naval personnel - like their army and air force counterparts - are famous for their desi jugaad. The original Vikrant and her successor, the Viraat served well beyond their "planned" end-service dates and that is solely due to the hard work of the officers and sailors that served aboard those vessels.

It will come down to how much cost (i.e. annual OPEX) will have to be invested into the vessel to ensure sea worthiness. A couple of refits (not sure if that would be classified as a CAPEX cost) will have to made as well. Once again, this is something the Navy will have to make a call on.

IAC-2 will not arrive anytime till the early 2030s (my own optimistic timeframe), so Vikramaditya will continue to serve till at least then. Beyond that, anything is possible. The Navy would love to have a three carrier navy, which has been a long cherished dream of theirs. So lets see what the plans are in the years ahead for the Vikramaditya.

=============================

Added L8r. I found this article from 2013. How much of this is still true, only time can tell.

“INS Vikramaditya will serve Navy for 30 years”
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 996525.ece
August 07, 2013 | Updated November 17, 2021

“The entry of the Vikramaditya marks a paradigm shift, as it heralds a new era in carrier operations in the Indian Navy. The way it has been rebuilt and equipped with advanced systems and machinery will ensure that it plods on for another 30 to 40 years,” Rear Admiral S. Madhusudanan.

[Rakesh]

Another gem from the The Parliamentary Committee of Defence and a possible reason why IAC-2 likely did not got DAC sanction on 30 Nov 2023.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1737 ... 89407?s=20 ---> The committee suggested that Government should think of developing our islands and land area of advantageous peninsular shape of the country as the bases of missiles and aircraft like stationary Air Craft Carriers, instead of Aircraft Carriers due to long time in construction.

[Pratyush]

These are two separate issues. Excercise of one option doesn't rule out another.

[SRajesh]

^^A bit perplexed by Stationary Aircraft Carriers
What do they mean??? Roll the IAC To Andaman islands and find a safe harbour!!
I always remember a Professor of mine saying If you pay Peanuts you will only get Monkeys!!
But here we are paying (I dont know what to call) the Honorable Members far too much yet left with gobsmaking decision made with respect to defence!!

[vera_k]

This is not all bad. Depending on the commonality between Tejas and TEDBF, the Navy could be served ordering a few MK1A squadrons to station at bases on the islands.

[SRajesh]

^^ Wouldnt that mean we want people to 'Step in to our Pond'

[Rakesh]

^^A bit perplexed by Stationary Aircraft Carriers
What do they mean??? Roll the IAC To Andaman islands and find a safe harbour!!
I always remember a Professor of mine saying If you pay Peanuts you will only get Monkeys!!
But here we are paying (I dont know what to call) the Honorable Members far too much yet left with gobsmaking decision made with respect to defence!!

This has been a long standing argument from the anti-carrier group, including the Army and Air Force. Instead of wasting money on aircraft carriers, just make Andaman Islands a permanent, fixed carrier base.

That argument is flawed. A stationery island (because they do not move!) is an easy target. Secondly, the flexibility of an aircraft carriers allows you to move it to a theatre of conflict, something you cannot do with a stationary island.

By all means, develop/militarize the Andaman Islands. Not contesting that. But to swap Andaman Islands for an aircraft carrier is stupidity.

Our politicians only think in short term and tactical mode. So what will give me the greatest return, at the quickest turnaround time? Long term and strategic thinking is lost on these folks. Long lead time in construction for an aircraft carrier is not really a well thought out conclusion.

Priorities determine budget. That never happens in India. Everything is bean counted. National Security is a "COST" to these people!

[Rakesh]

So Shukla recently published an article about IAC-2. Some interesting details/claims by Shukla.

* Along the lines of the JWGACTC (Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Cooperation) with the US, India is also in partnership with the UK on EPCP-JWG (Electric Propulsion Capability Partnership Joint Working Group).

* IAC-2 will use the same Rolls Royce MT-30 power pack that is on the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers.

* IAC-2 is back up in tonnage to 65,000 tons, just like the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers.

* The selection of the Rolls Royce MT-30 will set the foundation for the next generation of Indian Navy vessels to feature Rolls Royce turbines. This will replace the American, Russian and Ukrainian turbines that are currently on Indian Navy vessels.

* This cooperation with Rolls Royce will be a negative for the ongoing US-India maritime cooperation.

Rolls-Royce expands role in India-UK Electric Propulsion Capability Partnership
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/12/roll ... ia-uk.html
18 Dec 2023

[Rakesh]

With the publication of the above article, out come the tweets!

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1738 ... 92693?s=20 ---> So IAC 2 was held because Government of India wanted it to become US subsystem free.

[Rakesh]

Despite the insistence of being US subsystem free, the Indian Navy operates P-8Is, MH-60Rs and MQ-9Bs. INS Vikrant is powered by LM2500 gas turbines and a number of other surface combatants have US origin turbines. So much for being free!

[drnayar]

Rolls-Royce expands role in India-UK Electric Propulsion Capability Partnership
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/12/roll ... ia-uk.html
18 Dec 2023

tata or kalyani needs to buy a stake in RR

[Rakesh]

tata or kalyani needs to buy a stake in RR

I doubt the UK Govt will allow a foreign nation to buy a stake in RR's engine division. But from the below article.

Rolls-Royce expands role in India-UK Electric Propulsion Capability Partnership
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/12/roll ... ia-uk.html
18 Dec 2023

Supporting the ‘Make in India’ vision, it has signed a memorandum of understanding with Kalyani Strategic Systems Ltd (KSSL), a subsidiary of Bharat Forge Limited that oversees the group’s defence business.

Rolls-Royce has also signed an agreement with HAL for MT7 marine gas turbines. This marine gas turbine contains, the latest in gas turbine technology suited to Landing Craft Air Cushion (LCAC) or hovercraft applications.

Rolls-Royce already has an MoU with Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) for the licensed production and localisation of the technologically advanced MTU Series 4000 marine diesel engines.

[chetak]

Rolls-Royce expands role in India-UK Electric Propulsion Capability Partnership
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/12/roll ... ia-uk.html
18 Dec 2023

tata or kalyani needs to buy a stake in RR

drnayar ji,


RR is a strategic national asset and is a vital multi product high tech and cutting edge MIC conglomerate. They will not even consider any stake sale to a country like India.

They would probably need some sort of approval/oversight by their parliament before going for something like even stake a sale and only countries like US, CAN, AUS may be found acceptable

even Tata JLR are heavily constrained and are working with heavily firewalled restrictions on tech and IP transfer

[Cybaru]

So Shukla recently published an article about IAC-2. Some interesting details/claims by Shukla.

* IAC-2 is back up in tonnage to 65,000 tons, just like the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers.

Didn't the Navy chief say IAC2 would be the same size, a few weeks ago?

[Rakesh]

RR is a strategic national asset and is a vital multi product high tech and cutting edge MIC conglomerate. They will not even consider any stake sale to a country like India.

They would probably need some sort of approval/oversight by their parliament before going for something like even stake a sale and only countries like US, CAN, AUS may be found acceptable

even Tata JLR are heavily constrained and are working with heavily firewalled restrictions on tech and IP transfer

When RR’s auto division was sold off to BMW, there was significant backlash as the British felt they were losing a portion of their heritage. But the true colours of the Britshits came out when Jaguar/Land Rover was sold to Tata. The racism that came from that purchase was a sight to see.

There is no way the British Parliament or the British people will allow the sale of a strategic asset like RR’s aero engine division to be sold to India. Screwdrivergiri is the best we can hope for from RR.

[Rakesh]

So Shukla recently published an article about IAC-2. Some interesting details/claims by Shukla.

* IAC-2 is back up in tonnage to 65,000 tons, just like the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers.

Didn't the Navy chief say IAC2 would be the same size, a few weeks ago?

This is news to me. Do you have the link? I missed this.

[Pratyush]

With MT 30 a 65000 tons ship is possible.

But right now in the absence of complete information it's just speculation.

[chetak]

RR is a strategic national asset and is a vital multi product high tech and cutting edge MIC conglomerate. They will not even consider any stake sale to a country like India.

They would probably need some sort of approval/oversight by their parliament before going for something like even stake a sale and only countries like US, CAN, AUS may be found acceptable

even Tata JLR are heavily constrained and are working with heavily firewalled restrictions on tech and IP transfer

When RR’s auto division was sold off to BMW, there was significant backlash as the British felt they were losing a portion of their heritage. But the true colours of the Britshits came out when Jaguar/Land Rover was sold to Tata. The racism that came from that purchase was a sight to see.

There is no way the British Parliament or the British people will allow the sale of a strategic asset like RR’s aero engine division to be sold to India. Screwdrivergiri is the best we can hope for from RR.

Sirji,

the same patriotic britshits didn't mind when Indian companies poured money into their steel industry and kept britshit jobs afloat.

hypocrisy, greed, and racism have always been a great part of their national, as well as, cultural persona and also drives their petty geopolitical initiatives today

[Cybaru]

Didn't the Navy chief say IAC2 would be the same size, a few weeks ago?

This is news to me. Do you have the link? I missed this.

Yeah



India Needs Another Aircraft Carrier: Navy Chief

This was just a few weeks back.
It states the same size carrier and DPB just approved that.
IAC2 will probably be same size. Things probably don't change in few weeks.
This new sizing may be for IAC3. These IAC2 reports of mega size are most likely incorrect.

[drnayar]

I think the IN is asking for 2 carriers , IAC 2 of same 40k and 3 of 65k ton size..the 2 is to.keep the skills and ecosystem while preparing for 65-90k iac 3. They are definitely looking at a super carrier down the line.the 2 is a stopgap

[ramana]

Chetak or anyone,

In the old INS Vikrant how much was the boiler capacity devoted to the steam catapult?
Can we find out?

I am thinking of one of the gas turbines to power an electric boiler/steam generator and steam stored in accumulator tanks to drive a steam catapult.
Electric heat is quite efficient.
And two catapults for redundancy.

[JTull]

Ajai Shukla's RR article reeks of lifafa journalism. Several incorrect assertions are made as definitive news. Apparently he knows more than the Naval chief on IAC-2. And he knows more than several respected journos on Rafale twin seaters.

[ramana]

Evolution of Catapults on Aircraft carriers.

https://issuu.com/faircountmedia/docs/a ... s/15148017

[VKumar]

We need 3 AC to defend India and project force in the neighborhood. 5 AC to dominate IOR. 7 AC to carry the fight to the enemy.

[SRajesh]

Ramanaji and Rakesh
A question then: for continuity and use of expertise built up should the next two Carriers be of similar size and configuration with capability of launching UAVs as well meaning Vikrant size
And side by side design a 60k plus with all the paraphernalia

[Rakesh]

Ramanaji and Rakesh
A question then: for continuity and use of expertise built up should the next two Carriers be of similar size and configuration with capability of launching UAVs as well meaning Vikrant size
And side by side design a 60k plus with all the paraphernalia

The plan is to have IAC-2 as a follow on aircraft carrier to IAC-1 (INS Vikrant).

I going to ignore Ajai Shukla's claims that IAC-2 is going to be 65,000 tons, because that is not what the Naval Chief said. Thanks to Cybaru who posted that interview with the Naval Chief ---> viewtopic.php?p=2610262#p2610262

So to answer your question ---> IAC-2 will be built for continuity and use of expertise that was gained with IAC-1 (INS Vikrant). I suspect they will call IAC-2 as INS Viraat. This is my inference.

The next vessel (IAC-3) will be the bells-and-whistles aircraft carrier. So 65,000 tons, steam or electromagnetic catapults, etc. My hope is that it will be a two build program, so something like INS Vishal and INS Vikramaditya.

That Ajai Shukla article is nothing more than a push for Amreeki maal. The way Shukla is nostalgically reminiscing about F-18, it is hilariously funny. The F-18SH is done, as the production line is winding down. The F-18SH is too heavy for the arrestor gear of INS Vikrant. The F-18SH is too big for the hangar of INS Vikrant, even with wings folded. These are convenient details that Ajai Shukla just fails to mention. For him, they are just minor quibbles

[ramana]

Ajai Shukla's RR article reeks of lifafa journalism. Several incorrect assertions are made as definitive news. Apparently he knows more than the Naval chief on IAC-2. And he knows more than several respected journos on Rafale twin seaters.

Treat all these as indicators of what's discussed in the alleyways of power.

65k ton carrier is a non-starter as it will be 10+ years before joining service.
IN has near term need once the 26 Rafale M start deliveries.
So those pushing for 65k ton carrier belong to same school as the narrow lift gang. Reduce IN flexibility.

And where will you dock the 65K ton carrier?

[Rakesh]

Ramana-ji, it is actually 15 years and that is the Navy's own admission. No wonder this program never got sanctioned.

I can't believe Ajai Shukla is parroting the line about the twin-seater F-18SH being used in the training role. Even the US Navy does not use the twin-seater F-18F in the training role. In the US Navy, training is conducted on the T-45 Goshawk and simulators. Dude is a shrill for Amreeki maal.

INS Kadamba at Karwar is being developed to hold larger carriers like a 65,000 ton vessel. The base is being developed in multiple stages - Phase 1, Phase 2 and Phase 2B. The first phase is done, but I am not sure about the rest.

[SRajesh]

This lifafa journalism of some vested interests:
Deliberately dent the long term plans
Sow seeds of dissent amongst the ranks to crib for Unobtanium
And create doubts in the group willing to cooperate
Err all this before elections what for???
The BIFs expecting regime change???

[Aldonkar]

tata or kalyani needs to buy a stake in RR

drnayar ji,

RR is a strategic national asset and is a vital multi product high tech and cutting edge MIC conglomerate. They will not even consider any stake sale to a country like India.

They would probably need some sort of approval/oversight by their parliament before going for something like even stake a sale and only countries like US, CAN, AUS may be found acceptable

even Tata JLR are heavily constrained and are working with heavily firewalled restrictions on tech and IP transfer

I can confirm that Rakesh is correct. The British Gov owns a "golden share" in RR. This means that they can veto any takeover of RR by foreign (this includes Anglo countries) cancel any takeover. However shares in RR are traded on the LSE and were actually at a historic low until about a year ago. They were laid low by a combination of poor strategy and a spate of expensive problems on several large engines. The problems are solved now, partly by the appointment of a new chairman Tufan E(something) who came from BP. He is a Turkish citizen even though he worked for BP for some 35 years and headed (I think) their exploration department. He has rationalised some of RR departments and put up some non core sections for sale.

Ironically, as he is not a British citizen, he cannot obtain security clearance to see ant of the work of the RR department that works on Modular Nuclear Generators (MNG). RR is the UK lead in this area and there is talk of installing several MND in smaller towns but nothing firm as yet.

[Aldonkar]

RR is a strategic national asset and is a vital multi product high tech and cutting edge MIC conglomerate. They will not even consider any stake sale to a country like India.

They would probably need some sort of approval/oversight by their parliament before going for something like even stake a sale and only countries like US, CAN, AUS may be found acceptable

even Tata JLR are heavily constrained and are working with heavily firewalled restrictions on tech and IP transfer

When RR’s auto division was sold off to BMW, there was significant backlash as the British felt they were losing a portion of their heritage. But the true colours of the Britshits came out when Jaguar/Land Rover was sold to Tata. The racism that came from that purchase was a sight to see.

There is no way the British Parliament or the British people will allow the sale of a strategic asset like RR’s aero engine division to be sold to India. Screwdrivergiri is the best we can hope for from RR.

Actually, having supported Rakesh's version of the RR story, I diagree strongly with his reading of the Jaguar/Land-Rover saga and Chetak's comments.

To fully understand the attitude of this saga, one has to go back to another carmaker British Leyland. This was a nationalised concern that took over several British carmakers but was never successful. The only model that seemed to be doing well was a medium sized car called the Triumph Acclaim. This was in fact a Honda car and it was built in the UK using their tooling. I forget the name of the Honda model but the only change were the grille and the name badge.

Eventually, the British Gov tired of bailing out British Leyland and sold it to BMW, itself rescued from the ruins of war by a British Major as a company that made Austin cars (now part of BL) but previously a aero manufacturer. Honda were furious that they had not been given any clue about this development. If there was any racism, this was it. Strangly, Honda subsequently opened a factory in the UK and successfully made several models that were very successful but that is another story.

BMW ran BL for several years but the quality of cars did not improve significantly with some lame excuse of it proving to be more expensive than they expected. Strangely, they retained ownership of Morris (makers of the Mini) and one or two of the prestige marques Bentley and RR Cars (not to be be confused with RR Aero). There was a court case about RR Cars but that again is not relevant. One fact that emerged, is that BMW who previously only made rear wheel drive card in Germany, suddenly came out with a range of four wheel drive cars, the X series, that had a close resemblance to the Range Rover series. There was no court case about this so I won't say any more.

Jaguar, Rover and Range Rover ended with Ford who were even more incompetent than BMW and eventually ended up with Tata.

I actually worked for a Japanese electronics company and travelled to Japan during some of these happenings. All I can say is that the only comments I heard (in the UK) were what a dirty deal Honda got. The Germans appear to have got a good deal and they kept the bits they needed.

[sanjaykumar]

I must say Tata did an outstanding job with JLR. Range Rovers are even more fine machines than the Benz.

[Tanaji]

I believe that even when Tata took over JLR, the agreement banned them from transporting key technologies around the drive train and engines to India. Wholesale shifting of factories was also not allowed.

[Aldonkar]

I believe that even when Tata took over JLR, the agreement banned them from transporting key technologies around the drive train and engines to India. Wholesale shifting of factories was also not allowed.

Remember what happened with BMW! However JLR spent some time in the Ford empire too and I don't knew if the restriction applied to Ford. If it didn't perhaps Tata would be within their rights to ask why.

[ramana]

Irrelevant discussion.
Please stay on topic.