Electric vehicle and power storage

[sanman]

Toyota, Mazda and now Volvo have studied and concluded that small batteries and hybrid vehicles are the way forward until solid state batteries take over.

Who will introduce the solid state batteries first? Tesla has already invested massively in gigafactories to produce existing batteries, but it's always possible that they'll spend more big bucks to re-tool, given Musk's preference for state-of-the-art.

One additional useful feature of solid state batteries is that they're all-weather, in contrast to current batteries with liquid electrolytes that can freeze in cold weather.

[Mort Walker]

It doesn't matter who introduces it first. If it's Tesla, then so be it as competition is good. Toyota & Mercedes are the most profitable car companies today, and if they don't innovate quickly, they'll be gone. That said, Toyota is putting it's best foot forward to bridge the gap with hybrids that have small batteries until the time comes for solid state batteries and fuel cell technology by 2040.

From 1890-1910 the external combustion engine (ECE) known as the steam engine was very popular for automobiles. At the time Stanley Steamer was all the rage in the US as it got relatively incredible power and acceleration compared to ICE and EVs of the time. However ICE prevailed because it had a much higher energy to weight ratio and Stanley Steamer finally dissolved in the 1920s. Tesla may be the Stanley Steamer of the 21st century.

For Li-ion electrolytes to freeze it has to be awfully cold and they have to sit for a long time like on the Siachin Glacier or Alaska. The neatest thing about Tesla is their space age battery heat exchange system which seems like that technology came out of Space X developments. Everyone else, including Toyota, is way behind. Which is why they thought that developing SS batteries is the path forward.

About Tesla's amazing battery thermal management. This review is from a mechanic. Watch from 3:00 to 16:30.

[Jay]

Given Toyota's announcement, we're about about 4-5 years away, and many people will wait if they're paying $50K+ for a vehicle.

Toyota has been always 4-5 years with this tech and I will be very surprised if Toyota or any other EV's will can launch a $50k car with over 200 miles of range and with a solid state battery. Toyota has been milking this PR point for half a decade now and I do not see it any different. AT the most, they will come with a Solid State battery by 2030 and that too would supplement its gas cars as a PHEV.

https://qz.com/toyota-solid-state-batte ... 1850605326

https://thedriven.io/2023/07/05/solid-s ... elivering/

Driving habits for those between age 20-54, according to US DoT and auto industry is over 15,000 miles per year. If you live in the US west of the Mississippi River, but east of WA, OR & CA, you'll most likely be driving more than in that age group.

And a relatively small number of people live in that area you are boxing, 20 million may be. While for 90% of population the current ranges absolutely suffice. Also, like how every vehicle is not suitable for everybody(dually in an urban enviornment), not every EV need to satisfy every case study. If there is someone who would love to drive 500 miles in one go and stop for nothing and needs towing capabilities, then an EV is not for them. Catering to these use cases will only delay the progress.

With large national highways now being completed in India, some people object to the car culture, but much like the US, it is something which brings national unity and understanding.

Possible, but it will also bring more road accidents, and pollution.

you can easily travel to states more than 300KM away to see the different geography, culture and temples. It's something where politicians can no longer divide people based on region and language. My family rents an Innova with driver to go where & when they want to go doorstep-to-doorstep.

I'm talking about EV's wrt US, not India. I'm acutely unaware of Indian long distance driving habits, EV availability, and charging infra. So I cannot comment anything about it.

In the US, the standard 120V residential circuit breaker rating is 20A, but older homes will be 15A. If nothing else is on that circuit, you may get between 1.4 KW - 2.4 KW power. The cost of getting the wall connector from Tesla is about $475 and getting a 240V/40A home connection has come down quite a bit with electricians doing it for $400-$800. It's not unreasonable if you're spending $33K-$55K on a car where you can get 40 miles range per hour charged.

This is the ideal scenario and not the only scenario. I charge my EV on a 120v circuit, the same one where I also occasionally plug my phone/speaker. Cost has come down, but that's the overhead in adopting a new tech. There are many tax incentives to get the burden lower. In my state(illinois), there were rebates on equipment and labor for installation and with a federal rebate an EV was a no-brainer.

At this time, the Tesla is a great commuting vehicle.

I agree, and that's a good starting point. Almost all of the families who live in the suburbs and beyond have more than 2 cars and when the time comes for a replacement, if even one of them is replaced by an EV, it would be much better for everyone.

[Mort Walker]

Toyota has been always 4-5 years with this tech and I will be very surprised if Toyota or any other EV's will can launch a $50k car with over 200 miles of range and with a solid state battery. Toyota has been milking this PR point for half a decade now and I do not see it any different. AT the most, they will come with a Solid State battery by 2030 and that too would supplement its gas cars as a PHEV.

https://qz.com/toyota-solid-state-batte ... 1850605326

https://thedriven.io/2023/07/05/solid-s ... elivering/

No. Toyota holds the most patents for SS batteries ahead of Panasonic. Toyota's 2022 net profit was over $18B and are investing heavily into PHEVs and BEVs. Toyota/Lexus roadmap shows 6-10 new BEV models by 2026, along with newer hybrids. Their slow approach is vindicated and they will make a battery breakthrough.

And a relatively small number of people live in that area you are boxing, 20 million may be. While for 90% of population the current ranges absolutely suffice. Also, like how every vehicle is not suitable for everybody(dually in an urban enviornment), not every EV need to satisfy every case study. If there is someone who would love to drive 500 miles in one go and stop for nothing and needs towing capabilities, then an EV is not for them. Catering to these use cases will only delay the progress.

Wrong. Those states account for nearly 90 million people (TX alone is 30M) and it doesn't matter what is suitable for 90% of the population. What matters is how cars are currently being used and what the expectation is for range and refueling time. Particularly if one is spending over $50K for a vehicle.

This is the ideal scenario and not the only scenario. I charge my EV on a 120v circuit, the same one where I also occasionally plug my phone/speaker. Cost has come down, but that's the overhead in adopting a new tech. There are many tax incentives to get the burden lower. In my state(illinois), there were rebates on equipment and labor for installation and with a federal rebate an EV was a no-brainer.

If you're spending over $50K for a car and then cutting corners for <2% of purchase, considering gasoline savings, it doesn't make sense not to update your home with a 240V/40A dedicated circuit. Tax incentives are income restricted.

[Jay]

No. Toyota holds the most patents for SS batteries ahead of Panasonic. Toyota's 2022 net profit was over $18B and are investing heavily into PHEVs and BEVs. Toyota/Lexus roadmap shows 6-10 new BEV models by 2026, along with newer hybrids. Their slow approach is vindicated and they will make a battery breakthrough.

No doubt, they hold the most patents and they are a juggernaut and I am not making a point of their demise. As a company, they are doing very well and their outlook for BEV's seem promising. Bet they did stumble in these beginning years of BEV's and it's jarring for the fact that when they released the pioneering Prius back in 1997-98, they were well on the way to eventual electrification. In the electrification arena, they fell from that mighty prius to the abysmal BZ4X, or whatever silly name they assigned for that abomination of an BEV.

Wrong. Those states account for nearly 90 million people (TX alone is 30M) and it doesn't matter what is suitable for 90% of the population. What matters is how cars are currently being used and what the expectation is for range and refueling time. Particularly if one is spending over $50K for a vehicle.

You are right. I was thinking about the Midwest states, not the west and your population counts hold true. If there are no climate mandates and we live merrily by burning gasoline, then Yes, an EV in its current form will not be a direct 1-1 replacement for gas cars. But it's turning out to be other factors that might compel users to move to BEV's.

If you're spending over $50K for a car and then cutting corners for <2% of purchase, considering gasoline savings, it doesn't make sense not to update your home with a 240V/40A dedicated circuit. Tax incentives are income restricted.

Yes, tax incentives are indeed income restricted as they should be. There is no reason for some one making $250k and above needing a handout. As for spending regarding electric updates, it depends on one's driving habits. I personally did not do it as I was lazy and put it off. But after living for more than an year with it for my use case that 120v seems perfectly adequate. Others mileage may vary.

AT the end of the day, I do not see Toyota not making on BEV's. They are a smart, industrious company to eff this up, even with a late start. As for their SS batteries and their availability in 5 years in an $50k car(inflation adjusted), I'll believe it when I see it.

[Mort Walker]

The Tesla’s heat exchange system wrt to battery thermal management puts it heads & shoulders above everyone else. Tesla is partners with Panasonic and their own development in the US. If Toyota has SS, they’re likely to as well. The fit & finish of many Tesla’s is deplorable, but some production runs of the Y have been great. The Model S is better, but ungodly expensive. A friend of mine is getting the Mercedes EQS and I’m anxiously awaiting to get into it. More importantly, I’d like to know more about Mercedes and Porsche/Audi/VW battery thermal management heat exchange. So far it’s been disappointing compared to Tesla, which is why Toyota has taken a slow approach using smaller NiMH batteries in their hybrids. Toyota’s BZ & RZ overall engineering is superior to the other companies, but battery thermal management is still behind Tesla.

Right now, if spending under $50K, I would prefer the Toyota Crown Limited. A hybrid full size comfortable sedan that gets 42 mpg. It’s made in Japan with great fit and finish.

[Jay]

Right now, if spending under $50K, I would prefer the Toyota Crown Limited. A hybrid full size comfortable sedan that gets 42 mpg. It’s made in Japan with great fit and finish.

What a beautiful car that Crown is, in a sea of SUV's, Crossovers, and pickups. If it had a PHEV option and was priced around $50k, I would have snapped one myself.

[vera_k]

The average driver in US drives 37 miles/day and a little more than 13k miles/year, and that number is even lower in India.

Given this number, why is it that we don't see cheap EVs with lower range being sold? Would think that a $10-15K 5 seater with lower range will sell well. Heck, people are using golf carts on the road for lack of the equivalent of the Toyota Tercel.

[Mort Walker]

Right now, if spending under $50K, I would prefer the Toyota Crown Limited. A hybrid full size comfortable sedan that gets 42 mpg. It’s made in Japan with great fit and finish.

What a beautiful car that Crown is, in a sea of SUV's, Crossovers, and pickups. If it had a PHEV option and was priced around $50k, I would have snapped one myself.

Maybe for model year 2025.

[Vayutuvan]

Volvo has a PHEV @70k USD. It is luxury vehicle compared to Toyota, supposedly. Maybe some are willing to pay that price for the safety and luxury.

[Cyrano]

Has anyone heard of this? Looks like snake oil to me.
https://www.benzinga.com/news/23/08/339 ... and-longer

[Cyrano]

https://www.euronews.com/2023/08/22/wer ... ts-2352134

Where will all that electricity come from?! Coal burning plants if not nuclear!

[Pratyush]

Has anyone heard of this? Looks like snake oil to me.
https://www.benzinga.com/news/23/08/339 ... and-longer
[/quote


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium ... ir_battery

It does show the potential of aluminium batteries. So it's an understood technology.

The issue is making rechargeable batteries.

It is still not understood how to make rechargeable aluminium batteries. At the customer's house.

So cannot say, if this battery is snake oil or not.

[Pratyush]

Has anyone heard of this? Looks like snake oil to me.
https://www.benzinga.com/news/23/08/339 ... and-longer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium ... ir_battery

It does show the potential of aluminium batteries. So it's an understood technology.

The issue is making rechargeable batteries.

It is still not understood how to make rechargeable aluminium batteries. At the customer's house.

So cannot say, if this battery is snake oil or not.

[vera_k]

The average driver in US drives 37 miles/day and a little more than 13k miles/year, and that number is even lower in India.

Given this number, why is it that we don't see cheap EVs with lower range being sold? Would think that a $10-15K 5 seater with lower range will sell well. Heck, people are using golf carts on the road for lack of the equivalent of the Toyota Tercel.

WSJ article answering this question. The US model is not the best one to spur EV adoption.

Why Our EV Policies Are So Extremely Stupid

Also existing for no good purpose is the 1964 LBJ chicken tax. Enacted to keep a VW pickup out of the U.S. market, this 25% tariff on imported pickups and large SUVs is now the financial concession the U.S. industry revolves around.

Now excess pickup profits subsidize oversized EVs for the wealthy; previously they subsidized money-losing small sedans for the less-affluent.

The goal of auto companies is unchanged, to lose as little money as possible. So they build giant EVs hauling around giant batteries precisely because, as my irate emailer points out, consumers are willing to spend money on them that they are unwilling to spend on a small, efficient electric runabouts.

[rajkumar]

Presenting acti.ev | TATA.ev's first Pure EV architecture

[disha]

WSJ article answering this question. The US model is not the best one to spur EV adoption.

Why Our EV Policies Are So Extremely Stupid

There are lot of fallacies in WSJ article. There is lot of stupidities (due to pork barrel politics) in the US on the EV and Passenger vehicle laws. But WSJ does a disservice. Its target is Tesla.