Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rahulsinghx/status/173988 ... 38534?s=20 ---> INS Imphal's historic firsts:

* It is the 1st warship to have fired the BrahMos missile before commissioning
* It has separate accommodation for women officers & sailors
* Never has a woman officer been part of a warship’s commissioning crew

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rahulsinghx/status/174167 ... 22640?s=20 ---> Meet the crew of INS Imphal, the latest destroyer that will enable the navy confront challenges, including China’s power play in the Indo-Pacific, the Arabian Sea emerging as a new front with Red Sea tensions escalating & counterpiracy in the Gulf of Aden.

[hgupta]

4k nautical miles is the range of the ship? That seems to be short range to me.

[Rakesh]

4k nautical miles is the range of the ship? That seems to be short range to me.

Wiki has double the range. But these figures have to be weighed against other variables i.e. average speed being one.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rahulsinghx/status/174111 ... 27654?s=20 ---> With Sub Lt Anjali Mohapatra in the women sailors' mess on board guided missile destroyer INS Imphal. She is the deputy logistics officer & the first woman to be part of a warship’s commissioning crew in the Indian Navy's history. She is 24 & hails from Jajpur in Odisha.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1742031105128022343?s=20 ---> India should remember that there has always been an organic connection between maritime power — both naval and civilian — and a country achieving Great Power status, says Vice Admiral Anil Chawla (retd) in @timesofindia

[Rakesh]

Lessons from the Chem Pluto attack
https://www.news9live.com/world/lessons ... ck-2390010
30 Dec 2023

[Lisa]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 571821.cms

Why would such a press release be made? How does it help the Indian navies operations?

[Kersi]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 571821.cms

Why would such a press release be made? How does it help the Indian navies operations?

Some brownie points and additional TRP for TOI

[sanman]

See - we should've put more of our naval development efforts & expenditure into submarines & submarine-launched weapons like these, instead of into aircraft carriers which are just big expensive sitting ducks. Look how much expense and effort it takes to develop & build an aircraft carrier which can easily be sunk by a torpedo or missile. Submarines, by contrast, are far more efficient and cost-effective for a developing nation like ours.

[maz]

There are supposed to be over 60-69 ships currently under construction for the Indian Navy.
I can gather only the following projects, which are currently on going. Does anyone have information about other projects that are currently under construction:

1). P17A - 7 ships (4 at MDL, 3 GRSE)
2). Shallow Water Anti Submarine Ships - 16 nos. (8 GRSE, 8 CSL)
3). Missile cum ammunition barge - 16 nos. (8 Suryadipta projects, 8 Secon)
4). P15B - 2 ships yet to be commissioned. (MDL)
5). Talwar Class - 4 follow on ships (2 in Russia and 2 at GSL)

Please inform about any other ongoing projects under construction for the navy.

Here's a list of the 65 ships ( not including yard craft such as LSAM, ferry craft, barges and tugs) that are on order/under construction for the IN as of 06Jan2024:
45 Subs and warships:
1 x P75 SSK - MDSL- delivery in 2024
1 x P15B Surat - MDSL - expected delivery in 2024 if the engines from Ukraine's Zorya are actually in hand. Otherwise, delivery in 2025 or 2026.
2 x P11356 Batch III - Yantar - expected delivery in 2024-2025
2 x P11356 Batch IV - GSL - planned delivery in 2026-2027
7 x P17A - MDSL/GRSE - planned delivery of first hulls in 2024 (MDSL) and 2025 (GRSE) through 2027/2028
8 x 'A' class ASW SWC - GRSE/LTSB - planned delivery of first hulls in 2024 through 2026/2027. Could be sooner given production scale.
8 x 'M' class ASW SWC - CSL - planned delivery of first hulls in 2024 through 2026/2027. Could be sooner given production scale.
6 x NGMV - CSL - delivery from 2028 onwards through 2032
11 x NGOPV - GSL (7), GRSE (3) - planned delivery from 2028 -2032/2033

20 Auxiliary /Support vessels:
3 'S' class SVL -GRSE/LTSB - delivery from Dec 2023 through 2025. The first of class, Sandhayak was delivered to the IN on 04Dec2023.
2 x 'N' class DSV - HSL - delivery from 2024-2025. Could be somewhat later.
5 x 'A20' class DSC - Titagarh (TRSL) - from 2024 onwards
2 x MPV - LTSB - expected delivery in 2025-2026
3 x CTS - LTSB- expected delivery from 2026 onwards
5 x FSS - HSL - planned delivery from 2028-2033. First hull likely to be significantly delayed beyond planned timelines.

[Cybaru]

That's a pretty big list!

[hgupta]

That's a pretty big list!

Not really when it is spread over 7-10 years and 1/3 of the ships commissioned are small vessels less than 1000 tons and half of the ships are around 3k-4k tons. It would be impressive if IN was to commission at least 15-20 ships a year and half of them were at least 5k tons or greater.

[srin]

The destroyer pipeline (or rather the lack of it) is really worrisome. After the last ship in P15b is delivered, there is nothing on the horizon for rest of the decade.

[Aditya_V]

I guess the Navy considers the P17A class frigates more than capable yo replace the Rajput class destroyers. But Iguess it s a worry.

[titash]

I guess the Navy considers the P17A class frigates more than capable yo replace the Rajput class destroyers. But Iguess it s a worry.

The P-17A class are larger and more capable in every way compared to the legacy Rajput & Delhi class destroyers. There's nothing preventing a repeat order of P-17B vessels. Mind you both MDL/GRSE have built these under modular construction, so repeat orders can have a quick turnaround time. I suspect the question in NHQ is more around the propulsion stack...invest heavily in LM2500 or de-risk with a Rolls Royce MT30

Hull classification is more or less losing its meaning these days.
- The USN has 70+ "destroyers" which are larger and heavier than most WWII cruisers
- Our current & future OPVs are the size of the old Leander class frigates

[srai]

P17A -> 6,670t (frigate)
P15B -> 7,300t (destroyer)

The difference is mere 600t.

[titash]

P17A -> 6,670t (frigate)
P15B -> 7,300t (destroyer)

The difference is mere 600t.

More specifically the difference is:
- 8 vs. 16 BrahMos missiles
- LWT vs. HWT
- Better Volume Search Radar (Lanza vs. LW08)
- 1 less helicopter in P-17A compared to P-17 & P-15/15A/15B

The CODOG vs. all gas turbine propulsion schema should translate into less fuel costs, less maintenance costs, less underwater radiated noise

[srai]

^^^
Are you sure about LWT and 1 less helo capacity on P17A?

[srai]

Universal VLS would be the next iteration for Indian Navy ships.

[titash]

^^^
Are you sure about LWT and 1 less helo capacity on P17A?

Yes - I remember seeing a video about the P-17 Shivalik - was launching an LWT from a triple tube launcher mounted internally / behind a screen.

All local designs for frigate/destroyer i.e. Godavari, Brahmaputra, Delhi, Shivalik, Kolkata, Vishakapatnam have dual helo hangers. Unfortunately, for the better part of the last 15 years, these ships have sailed with empty decks. Very rarely will you see a picture of these ships with a SeaKing...most often than not you'll get a Chetak

The P-17A CGIs have shown a single helo hanger.

[hgupta]

Can IMRH replace the capacity of a Sea King?

IN should always plan for 2 helicopter hangars even though they may not carry one or both because you never know what situation will arise that will necessitate the quartering of two helicopters at any given time and it is very useful to have that capacity.

[drnayar]

Universal VLS would be the next iteration for Indian Navy ships.

As also an integrated mast /sensor antenna system courtesy the Japanese

[Najunamar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nilgiri-c ... ate_(2019)

Perhaps this Wikipedia entry is old and incorrect but seems to suggest 2 helicopters…. Gurus please explain if available in public domain.

[srai]

^^^
Good eye Titash!

It might be that the “second” aerial platform would be an UAV. Increasingly navies around the world are accommodating UAV capabilities.

[Rakesh]

Why the proposed military base at Minicoy Islands will be a game-changer
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 52112.html
10 Jan 2024

[chetak]

Adani Group Unveils India's First Medium Altitude, Long Endurance Drone

Jan 10, 2024

Chief of Naval Staff Admiral R Hari Kumar today flagged off the first indigenously manufactured Drishti 10 'Starliner' Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) for the Navy.

The sophisticated, state-of-the-art UAV marks a significant step towards strategic autonomy and technological leadership in high-endurance, combat-proven, and indigenized advanced aerial systems.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... s?from=mdr

[hgupta]

This drone is basically our version of the J17 plane. We are buying Israeli drones and painting it in saffron color and declaring it as Indian made when the actual parts are made overseas and brought to India to be assembled.

[chetak]

This drone is basically our version of the J17 plane. We are buying Israeli drones and painting it in saffron color and declaring it as Indian made when the actual parts are made overseas and brought to India to be assembled.

hgupta ji

That is how things usually start out in the high tech world. Our problem remains, as in other hi tech areas, which is the lack of a resource pool of quality, vertically specialized, and dedicated domain specific human resources

"It doesn't matter whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice."

It is of vital importance to us that we now have a second source for these drones and we are intentionally de-risking from the dicey amriki supply chain

So, what is happening is we are collaborating and making in India today.....

and we hope to innovate, improve and upgrade when expertise is gained and human resources are sufficiently developed and with adani, that will happen fairly quickly

[hgupta]

That is how things start in the high tech world. Our problem remains as in other areas which is the lack of quality, vertically specialized dedicated human resources

"It doesn't matter whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice."

It is of vital importance to us that we now have a second source for these drones and we are intentionally de-risking from the dicey amriki supply chain

So, what is happening is we are collaborating and making in India today.....

and we hope to innovate, improve and upgrade when expertise is gained and human resources are sufficiently developed and with adani, that will happen fairly quickly

As long as we nurture our own domestic versions but we are not even doing that. Our Tapas and Rustom programs are in tatters, derailed by the import lobby.

[chetak]

As long as we nurture our own domestic versions but we are not even doing that. Our Tapas and Rustom programs are in tatters, derailed by the import lobby.

hgupta ji,

I am intimately familiar with these eco systems that pass off for progress in R&D

you are way off the mark

It is the very same problem all over again but in another domain

all one can say is, some serious efforts are definitely underway in these areas

All will be revealed, in the fulness of time....

[Aditya_V]

I think makers of Reaper would have known this was in the works and may be one more reason Adani was attacked, it is again a pusher config.

The problem we should not abandon Tapas and continue to work on it, From Surveillance of Pir Panjals, North east, Maoist areas, plus vast sea lanes, we need huge number sof all types of Drones.

I guess somewhere the Reaper USD 100 mil tag did not make sense.

[Rakesh]

Indian Navy: A Deterrent Force in Arabian Sea

[Rakesh]

Navy Set to Establish Second Low-Frequency Radar Station in Parigi, Telangana
https://defence.in/threads/navy-set-to- ... gana.1745/
11 Jan 2024

[Rakesh]

MDL Bids Enhanced Kalvari Submarines for Indian Navy, Claims Can Make 9 At Once
https://defence.in/threads/mdl-bids-enh ... once.1702/
11 Jan 2024

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1747130471321088407?s=20 ---> Bridge of INS Imphal

[uddu]

India secures trade, power with new naval role in Middle East
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... iddle-east


India's maritime presence is undergoing a transformative shift.

While not aligning directly with the US-led mission against the Houthis in Yemen — which has most recently encompassed strikes against facilities operated by the group — the Indian navy's independent operations set a precedent for India's evolving military posture in West Asia and mark a departure from its traditional strategic restraint.

[dinesh_kimar]

MDL Bids Enhanced Kalvari Submarines for Indian Navy, Claims Can Make 9 At Once
https://defence.in/threads/mdl-bids-enh ... once.1702/
11 Jan 2024

It's clear what they are doing....by quick promise of simultaneous submarine launches ( no country does this, btw), they're again going for Mazagaon Procured Items from France, and suppressing indigenous efforts.

The 1st build (6 subs) had cumulative 43% Indigenization.

A sincere effort would yield 70+ % by the 6th boat -like in the case of Turkey and Australia.

It's not only us common folk who can spot such discrepancies, even they know it.

Submarine requirement is not as critical as say, 10 years ago.

6 new boats + 2-3 nuclear boats + P8 I planes have reduced the pressure somewhat.

They could have taken the new builds slowly , with better planning, and increased domestic efforts.

Apparently, the Aussies have indigenized even the 18 cylinder diesel Hedemora engines. Here, we look upon it as a holy grail.

Personally, I don't mind a lot of noisy diesel submarines, as P-8 hunter killers and ASW Destroyers give some luxury to improve a domestic design. But first, something must be built!

[hgupta]

Sorry to say but we need the force out in numbers. We should get 12 more Kalvaris to top out our submarine force at 18 to ensure a readiness rate of at least 6 subs out in the sea. Our Kilos and U boats are aging fast and getting obsolete. Ideally our submarine force should be at 30 to have 10 operational subs out in the sea patrolling. 4 subs to deal with Pakistan and the westward seaboard and 6 subs on the east seaboard to deal with PLA threats and monitor the Malacca straits. And we need to increase the size of our P-8I force to 24 and add the ability of carrying at least 6 missiles of the air version of Brahmos to have that long range stand off strike capability.

[Rakesh]

Today, the official Twitter account of Naval Group put this out...

https://x.com/navalgroup/status/1750521 ... 95882?s=20 ---> The Scorpene is on its path to become the backbone of India’s submarine force. And we are honoured that a Blue-water Navy such as @IndianNavy has placed its trust in us. The Kalvari Class submarines are the first indigenized submarines built completely in India by @MazagonDockLtd, based on our Scorpene design.

The P-75 program is an industrial success, as the sixth submarine - the Vagsheer - is carrying out its sea trials and expected to be commissioned this year and INS Vagir showcased its extended range deployment capabilities, reaching Australia last summer. Naval Group is dedicated to nurturing and expanding its partnerships with Indian Industries to create a strong local defence ecosystem. India and France have expressed interest in continuing their cooperation for 3 additional submarines to be built by MDL in collaboration with Naval Group.