Indus Water Treaty

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drnayar
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by drnayar »

Guddu wrote:India will end up giving some water to Pak, why not tie that good deed with obtaining concessions on POK. I would think that is smart thinking.

why not keep the Indus waters and get back POK., after pok is pok !!..whats the need for pro quo ?

junk the IWT and what hague !
Yagnasri
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Yagnasri »

Just IWT. When pakis do not recognise J&K as a part of Bharat, on what basis can the treaty be made with them?
SSridhar
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by SSridhar »

chetak wrote: 07 Jul 2023 21:09 cheen threw the PCA's order into dustbin when it ruled against cheen over the “south china sea" issue

why would India be so foolish so as to follow the PCA's order on the IWT when the very process followed by the PCA is illegal
While a comparison with the Chinese case under ITLOS PCA may be tempting to make, there are many structural differences which make our rejection of the CoA very just and legal.

Let me explain.

As the IWT CoA says, its formation is legal under the provisions of the IWT. It is also right that India's rejection of the CoA does not make it incompetent.

While superficially the CoA may appear to be correct, there are a few problems with this formulation which are what India has pointed out and which is what the CoA has not come to grips with. I would believe that this CoA is prejudiced against India already with the statements it has made and cited above.

We need to understand the three grades of issues that the Indus Commission has to deal with. Questions, differences and disputes. Questions are the initial set of problems raised by one Indus Commissioner to the other. They either become a difference or a dispute based on whether the questions fall under issues covered in Part-1 of Annexure-F of IWT or not respectively. The differences are resolved by a NE and disputes by a CoA.

What the CoA has not understood are several things:
  1. The issues referred to it fall under the competence of a NE as per provisions of the IWT
  2. An NE has already been chosen per the provisions of the IWT and the proceedings are on-going where both India and Pakistan are presenting their respective cases.
  3. The CoA is neither an overarching (like a Supreme Court) nor an appellate body where an NE's award can be appealed against
  4. Since what can be referred to the NE and to a CoA have been clearly defined in the IWT.
  5. The grievous error has been made by the WB which has constituted both an NE and a CoA for the same set of issues. There is no provision in the IWT for such dual process of 'settling differences and disputes'. Article IX of IWT says, "If the difference does not come within the provisions of Paragraph (2) (a), or if a Neutral Expert, in accordance with the provisions of Paragraph 7 of Annexure F. has informed the Commission that, in his opinion, the difference, or a part thereof, should be treated as a dispute, then a dispute will be deemed to have arisen which shall be settled in accordance with the provisions of Paragraphs (3), (4) and (5)" Paragraphs 3, 4 & 5 deal with the process of establishing a CoA.
  6. The WB, by agreeing to constitute a NE has willy-nilly concluded that the questions raised by Pakistan are only 'differences' and therefore fall under an NE and therefore CoA is superfluous. However, Pakistan has used a provision of Article IX which says, "Provided that, at the discretion of the Commission, any difference may either be dealt with by a Neutral Expert in accordance with the provisions of Part 2 of Annexure F or be deemed to be a dispute to be settled in accordance with the provisions of Paragraphs (3), (4) and (5), or may be settled in any other way agreed upon by the Commission." The highlighted 'OR' above is crucial. A question cannot be a difference and a dispute at the same time. This is the mistake of WB which had been overlooked by the CoA
  7. Another glaring error of the WB and the CoA is that according to Paragraph 6 of Article IX, "The provisions of Paragraphs (3), (4) and (5) shall not apply to any difference while it is being dealt with by a Neutral Expert". The NE is already on the job and the two countries have started to present their cases before him. The CoA is therefore illegal and incompetent.
Therefore, our case of rejection of the CoA constituted by the WB is valid and legal and as per provisions of Article IX of the IWT itself.

IMO, the WB and the CoA have justified the recent GoI calls for re-negotiation of the IWT and made the task easier for India to withdraw from it if Pakistan does not agree to that proposal and if this WB/CoA tamasha continues.

Now, let us look at the ITLOS PCA which China junked.

China has signed and ratified the provisions of UNCLOS and it is therefore bound to its arbitral awards, just as India conceded a large chunk in BoB after maritime delimitation award by the PCA of ITLOS. Unlike the IWT, there are no NEs and CoAs or differences and disputes or UNCLOS Commissioners in each country etc. within the provisions of the UNCLOS. Any country can raise an issue with the ITLOS and a PCA will hear the case and give its binding award. Simple.

China refused to present itself before the PCA, not based on any sound provisions of the UNCLOS, but based on frivolous and unsustainable accusations. For example, it said that one of the Judges (a Sri Lankan, IIRC) was married to a Filippino. The Sri Lankan judge withdrew. China then invented other reasons. For example, it accused the President of ITLOS of picking the jury panel out of malice towards China because he was a Japanese and Japan had enmity with China. Then it proffered a hilarious reason, which the Chinese diplomacy alone is capable of doing, saying that the African & European jurists on the panel were unqualified and they did not know Asian conditions. Asian conditions? :rotfl:

At its most fundamental core, how can any country in this modern day defend arbitrary nine dashes drawn centuries ago?
SSridhar
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by SSridhar »

Guddu wrote: 08 Jul 2023 20:56 Looking at the timing, when a response is due from Pak, and the govts claims on POK, do you think the govt might link the two issues. i.e. a quid pro quo whereby good behaviour by Pak makes the water flow smoothly ?.
Guddu ji, Pakistan and 'good behaviour'?

As usual, the clever-by-half TSP is putting the noose around its own neck and asking us to pull the chair from under its feet. I think we must oblige, mustn't we?
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Lisa »

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blo ... ince-1960/

Indus Water Treaty: Dynamics of technological knowhow, climate change and socio-economic parameters since 1960

"As we look ahead, it is clear that almost 63 years after ratification of the Treaty, material facts and conditions under which the treaty was ratified do not hold good. As an emerging economy, India’s serious efforts to present and lead the world when it comes to management of climate change despite having the world’s largest population, the intensity, the vulnerability and the risk that India faces with climate change and its monsoon design agricultural economy have to be taken into consideration if this Treaty is to remain sound and sustainable and fair to the people of the subcontinent. The IWT has failed to account for the progress in technological knowhow and other socio-economic parameters that has taken place over the last six decades. India is well within its rights to construct hydroelectric projects as per the prevailing sound engineering practices and a fresh framework is to be built to bring the focus to people, economy and the climate change. Thus, for survival of the Treaty and to mitigate the losses India is suffering every year, it is to the benefit of both nations and in the region’s interest that the changed parameters and advancement in technological knowhow are accounted for and modification of the Treaty is carried out urgently to ensure equitability and sustainability."
Guddu
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Guddu »

Some international water security related data. Much of the world is water insecure.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... ity-levels

Image
bala
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by bala »

An interesting and informative talk by Lt Gen KJ Singh and Lt Gen Shankar on matters related to weaponizing the Indus Water Treaty.

All these structures and arrangements were created during the colonial era to the disadvantage of Bharat. Sustainability of correcting the mistakes of the past and its timeline would depend on the decisions taken by the Central and State governments in alignment with the objective to benefit Bharat, while not putting others to extreme disadvantage. Bharat needs to put proper controls in place and use them when terrorism or war occurs from across the borders. There is price to be paid for indulging in destruction of Bharat.

chetak
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chetak »

The #Modi Sarkar is bringing Pakistan's Nightmare into Reality sooner than expected! Water Flow into Pakistan ready to get curtailed!

Major milestone is achieved at 850 MW Ratle Hydro Electric Project in Jammu & Kashmir, with DIVERSION of Chenab River through diversion tunnels at Drabshalla in Kishtwar district on 27 Jan, 2024.

The river diversion is a critical step that enables isolation of dam area at riverbed, paving way for start of crucial activities such as excavation & dam construction.

Apart from stopping water flow into Pakistan, implementation of Ratle Hydro Electric Project is poised to create direct & indirect employment for around 4000 individuals. Furthermore, J&K stands to benefit from free power worth ₹5289 crore & water usage charges amounting to ₹9581 crore over the project's 40-year life cycle.

The progress on the Ratle Hydro Electric Project is not only a strategic move but also promises significant socio-economic benefits for J&K. Kudos to #ModiSarkar for turning dreams into reality, ensuring sustainable growth, and utilizing resources for the nation's progress.

Note that Pakistan was DELIBERATELY given Undue Advantage by Jawaharlal Nehru under Indus Water Treaty.



Govt diverts Chenab river water to expedite hydroelectric project in Jammu and Kashmir


https://www.deccanherald.com/india/jamm ... statement.
Ankit Desai
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

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sanman
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

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bala
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by bala »

Col Ajay Raina take on Ravi river's water in PGurus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DGT_7Aj0KQ

Col Ajay Raina with Adi Achint, this one has maps. Worth watching, since it clearly spells out the IWT and various nuances. India gave 3 rivers to the Pukes and the other 3 are with India, Ravi included. However all 6 rivers have a quantum of around 250 billion cft and the 3 with India is only around 40 billion cft, well over 80% goes toward the Pukes and they still complain a lot. India gave a ton of money to Pukies to build canals etc after signing the IWT by prime idiot NeverWho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWR4Gxab77w
mody
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by mody »

The stupidest part that no one has ever highlighted is that only 5 rivers cross over from India into Pakistan!!!!!!
Where are the 6 rivers? Can anyone show them on the map???
The 6 rivers are taken as the rivers of the undivided Punjab and based on the same this most stupid of the treaties has been signed.

The river Beas does not flow into Pakistan. It merges with Sutlej well within Indian territory and thereafter the river is known as Sutlej only.
The distribution should have been done on the basis of these 5 rivers, with India retaining the rights over Sutlej, Ravi and Chenab rivers and Pakistan getting access to the waters of Jhelum and Indus.
This would have solved most of the issues.
Aditya_V
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Aditya_V »

Why agreement with nation which killed all its minorities, they broke away. They don't need farming
chetak
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chetak »

mody wrote: 01 Mar 2024 12:32 The stupidest part that no one has ever highlighted is that only 5 rivers cross over from India into Pakistan!!!!!!
Where are the 6 rivers? Can anyone show them on the map???
The 6 rivers are taken as the rivers of the undivided Punjab and based on the same this most stupid of the treaties has been signed.

The river Beas does not flow into Pakistan. It merges with Sutlej well within Indian territory and thereafter the river is known as Sutlej only.
The distribution should have been done on the basis of these 5 rivers, with India retaining the rights over Sutlej, Ravi and Chenab rivers and Pakistan getting access to the waters of Jhelum and Indus.
This would have solved most of the issues.


mody ji,


It was the haramkhor amrikis convinced neverwho that his "generosity" would go a very long way in helping India untangle the cashmere issue...... and everyone knows how they messed up the issue even further, putting immense pressure on India to "accommodate" the pakis, meaning just hand over cashmere to them


Has anyone noticed that for long the beedis have pushed for similar "generosity" on India's part concerning the teesta waters and they say India is the big "brother" and it must give to the smaller countries, without asking for reciprocity in any manner whatsoever, quoting the stupid gujral doctrine


Dispute between India and bangladesh have been engaged over water-sharing of the Teesta River. The Teesta River is an important river for both India and bangladesh, and it is a vital source of water for irrigation, fisheries, and drinking water, and there are 53 common rivers between bangladesh and India
Yagnasri
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Yagnasri »

One thing we have to note. Pakis do not accept J&K as part of Bharat. So how can there be any treaty without accepting it?
bala
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by bala »

How India will Unleash Strategic Power of Ravi River Waters?

Maj Gen Ajay Chaturvedi, Col Ajay Raina with moderator Brig. Rakesh Bhatia

India's control over the waters of the Ravi River diminishes the defence potential of the Pakistan army in the region. The strategic stoppage of Ravi water can severely impact Pakistan's defense infrastructure, particularly its defensive canals, which heavily rely on water from the Ravi River. Without access to sufficient water, these canals become ineffective barriers, making it easier for adversaries to breach Pakistan's defenses and penetrate its territory. By disrupting the flow of water to these defensive installations, India can undermine Pakistan's ability to defend its borders effectively, thereby tipping the balance of power in the region in its favor. This aspect adds a crucial dimension to India's strategic calculus, emphasizing the significant military advantage gained through the control and manipulation of water resources along the Ravi River.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CRu1GqkaM0
chetak
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by chetak »

the pakis are quoting vedas, Hindu scriptures and the "coming of the aryans" as proof that the ravi river has ancient significance for the city of lahore

they have been reduced to mouthing inanities, emotional blackmail playing their standard issue victim card to blame India for exercising her rights under the IWT


All to note that this "gem" is a paki produced video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMpqu7Dwt38


Death of Lahore’s River Ravi | India Pakistan Water Politics | Syed Muzammil Official





Mar 5, 2024

The Indus Waters Treaty, signed in 1960 between India and Pakistan, is a significant water-sharing agreement that allocates the waters of six rivers between the two countries. In this video we have talked about the recent development in which India has taken steps that impact the flow of the Ravi River to Pakistan by constructing a new barrage, halting the river's flow.

This action is part of a broader context where India is considering using the treaty as leverage in its relationship with Pakistan
Prem
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Post by Prem »

After Lahori build a whole new townsnhip on Ravi Riverbed , India can release the precious water to wash them down and away.
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