Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

[YashG]

In the era of sea-drones, submarines will become a lot more survivable than surface ships ?

[Rakesh]

In the era of sea-drones, submarines will become a lot more survivable than surface ships ?

You cannot engage and destroy something, which you cannot see. A submarine's entire survival depends on being silent and staying invisible.

So yes, a submarine is more survivable than a surface vessel. That is the theory. The reality has a whole set of variables that sub commanders have to consider. This game of cat and mouse will always continue.

[AkshaySG]

Submarine drones and unmanned sub tech is also getting better day by day, Previously an enemy sub couldn't risk using all it's detection capabilities lest it gets found out itself but with unmanned/drone subs that will not be the case anymore

As with every technology there will be a counter and then a counter to the counter but that's how the world works

[Manish_P]

Submarine drones and unmanned sub tech is also getting better day by day, Previously an enemy sub couldn't risk using all it's detection capabilities lest it gets found out itself but with unmanned/drone subs that will not be the case anymore
..

While that's true Akshay sir, are not submarine drones much costlier compared to aerial drones? Partly due to the stronger material required and secondly because they will need better sensors.

As with every technology there will be a counter and then a counter to the counter but that's how the world works

And the countering ladder increases the price of the systems further, which is opposite of what this current type of warfare is - using cheap expendable unmanned systems to hit costly manned systems

[YashG]

submarine drone will expend most of their energy in detection as they will use non visual spectrum for seeing- since the visual detection is not avl for submarine drones. hifi Visual cameras have become incredibly cheap due to their mass production for mobiles. On the contrary, aerial drones spend less energy on seeing.

But aerial drone expend most of their energy staying afloat in air, which is not required for a submarine drone.

[bala]

Another Indian Navy rescue of hijacked Iranian ship “AI Kambar 786” near the Gulf of Aden. The Indian Navy said that nine pirates aboard the vessel were forced to surrender after "12 hours of tactical measures". The navy received the inputs of a potential pirate incident on March 28 evening and responded by diverting two ships deployed in the Arabian Sea for maritime security.

23 Pakistani nationals aboard the vessel were rescued.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09eO37hTJJg

// Indian Navy is becoming the "911" call of Indian Ocean region. Time for these nations whose ships are hijacked to pay for the service.

[ramana]

My distress is anti piracy and disaster ops will cut into IN.fighting ability.
Maybe designate only certain ships are tasked to this mission.

[drnayar]

My distress is anti piracy and disaster ops will cut into IN.fighting ability.
Maybe designate only certain ships are tasked to this mission.

Well who can do it then? Even USN and not their coast guard are fighting the pirates !

Indian coast guard has mandate only to 200 NM and is equipped as such

Piracy is another form of asymmetrical warfare on the seas ..it has economic and political goals , and hence needs to be dealt as such

[Manish_P]

One option would be escort and protection of only Indian owned merchant ships. Then again Indian nationals are part of the crew of a lot of international merchant marine.

[drnayar]

The option is to co-opt African and littoral IOR nations into providing facilities for replenishment and monitoring in return providing security for their economic lifelines.

India is not trying to be big brother but helping other countries in facilitating and sustaining supply chains for everyone

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/arunp2810/status/1778648770810413451 ---> A&N islands - India’s strategic eastern outpost. History & thoughts in today’s Indian Express.

[Pratyush]

My distress is anti piracy and disaster ops will cut into IN.fighting ability.
Maybe designate only certain ships are tasked to this mission.

The size of the Indian Navy has to increase as our economy and trade grows. That's the only way we can keep our sea lanes open and safe from unfriendly powers.

[Pratyush]

One option would be escort and protection of only Indian owned merchant ships. Then again Indian nationals are part of the crew of a lot of international merchant marine.

Extend protection to Indian commerce in the following way.

1) Any ship, originating from anywhere in the world to any port in India.
2) Any ship, originating from any port in India to anywhere in the world.
3) Any ship owned/ operated/ chartered by an Indian company.

[Manish_P]

Extend protection to Indian commerce in the following way.

1) Any ship, originating from anywhere in the world to any port in India.
2) Any ship, originating from any port in India to anywhere in the world.
3) Any ship owned/ operated/ chartered by an Indian company.

+1

Yesterday read a news post about a Bangladeshi company paying ransom to Somali pirates to release their vessel.

The other naval units in the vicinity apparently declined to undertake rescue efforts stating that they were busy in protecting their assets from Houthi/Iranian threats...

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1781029247957471537 ---> Vice Admiral Dinesh Kumar Tripathi appointed as the next Chief of the Naval Staff. He takes over after the retirement of incumbent Admiral R Hari Kumar.

[VinodTK]

^^^^
Vice admiral Dinesh K Tripathi announced as new Navy chief

NEW DELHI: Vice Admiral Dinesh K Tripathi, who earlier served as the director-general of naval operations and the flag officer commanding-in-chief of the Western Naval Command, will be the next Navy chief, the government announced late on Thursday night.

Vice Admiral Tripathi, who is currently the vice chief, will succeed Admiral R Hari Kumar, who retires on April 30. Commissioned in July 1985, Vice Admiral Tripathi is a communication and electronic warfare specialist who has commanded warships like corvette INS Kirch and frigate INS Trishul as well as held crucial operational and staff appointments during his career.

He will take over the reins of the Navy at a time when Indian warships are extensively deployed in the Gulf of Aden and adjoining areas, Arabian Sea, and off the east coast of Somalia, amid the continuing attacks by Houthi rebels and Somali pirates that have disrupted sea trade in the region.

The 140-warship Navy has responded to over 20 such incidents on the high seas, burnishing its credentials as the ‘first responder’ and ‘preferred security partner’ in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).


China’s rapidly expanding footprint in the IOR and its collusiveness with Pakistan in the maritime domain as well, of course, also remains a matter of major concern for the Indian defence establishment.

China, which is building ships at a furious rate, already has the world’s largest Navy with 355 warships and submarines. It’s also hunting for more overseas bases after Djibouti on the Horn of Africa, Karachi and Gwadar in Pakistan and now possibly Ream in Cambodia to overcome its existing logistical challenge in the IOR and the larger Indo-Pacific.

As the Eastern Fleet commander, DGNO and Western Naval Command chief, Vice Tripathi has been in the thick of things as far as the high tempo of naval maritime operations is concerned. Importantly, earlier as the assistant chief of naval staff (policy and plans) and now the vice chief since January this year, he has also handled the entire modernization of the force.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/indiannavy/status/1785282650141548589 ---> Admiral Dinesh K Tripathi, PVSM, AVSM, NM, assumed command of the Indian Navy as the 26th Chief of the Naval Staff on 30 April 2024. He was presented a ceremonial Guard of Honour at the South Block, New Delhi.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1713975362244493326 ---> Brahmaputra Class Frigates of Indian Navy to be repowered from steam to diesel propulsion. INS Beas, will be the first frigate to undergo modernisation at Cochin Shipyard Limited at a cost of 314 crore rupees.

^^^ Above tweet is dated 16 Oct 2023

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1785861586302673072 ----> Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) starts Mid-Life Upgrade of Brahmaputra Class frigate, INS Beas (F37). She will receive 6MW Caterpillar Marine diesel engines replacing her BHEL steam boilers. This will extend the ship's life by 20 years.

^^^ Above tweet is dated 01 May 2024

[Pratyush]

Are the ship's combat systems going to be relevant for the next 20 years?

[mody]

Are the ship's combat systems going to be relevant for the next 20 years?

314 crores cannot be only for engine and propulsion replacement. Some of the other systems might get upgraded too.
However, that said the Brahmputra class are an outdated design now and are good enough to only make up the numbers and work in conjunction with other newer platforms.

[srai]

^^^
If they are going to be around for another two decades then we can assume radar, electronics and weapon package would be updated too at some point.

Main weapon upgrade in my mind would be the air defense:

VL-SRSAM (40km) replace Barak-1 (8km)

[Cain Marko]

Anyone know anything about this? It seems a retired Indian Navy admiral was involved (first 7 minutes):
Some kind of spheroid engine tech that is extremely clean...hydrocarbons are reduced to near zero, Oxygen output increases 20%. Overall performance increase is also very distinct.
It's called the thunderstorm generator.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/xKKwre_B-aE?si=jvzNVnDuTpK61twL[/youtube]
Note that the gent who is speaking is not really an engineer but a layman trying his best to translate what he saw and recorded.

[titash]

^^^
If they are going to be around for another two decades then we can assume radar, electronics and weapon package would be updated too at some point.

Main weapon upgrade in my mind would be the air defense:

VL-SRSAM (40km) replace Barak-1 (8km)

Lots to do:

PROPULSION:
BHEL Boilers / Turbines --> replace by 2 diesels

SENSORS:
ELTA STAR --> keep or replace with Revati
LW08 --> replace with LANZA
ELTA STGR director --> replace with VL-SRSAM X-Band AESA radar
HMS --> replace by HUMSA NG
VDS --> replace with ACTAS

WEAPONS:
24 CLOS Barak-8 --> replace by 24 Active Homing VL-SRSAM
16 SS-N-25 Switchblade --> replaced by 4 inclined BrahMos (if you recall, the Godavari(s) had 4 SS-N-2 Styx)
76 mm Gun --> retain
30 mm Guns --> retain
2 Triple AS244T LWT launchers --> replace with L&T launchers & ALWT torpedoes

AVIATION:
2 SeaKing (actually 1 Chetak) --> 1 SeaHawk

[SNaik]

Are the ship's combat systems going to be relevant for the next 20 years?

314 crores cannot be only for engine and propulsion replacement. Some of the other systems might get upgraded too.
However, that said the Brahmputra class are an outdated design now and are good enough to only make up the numbers and work in conjunction with other newer platforms.

Last October 314 crores were for engine replacement and switching from Urans to Brahmos. Everything else is wishful thinking.

[Rakesh]

Indian Navy’s New Chief Outlines Strategic Vision in First Address to Naval Officers
https://bharatshakti.in/cns-tripathi-co ... dian-navy/
22 May 2024

[sanman]

Indian Navy's Plan to Counter China

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/CMD_HSL/status/1802266068628750793 ---> Successfully undocked the Russian-made EKM-class submarine on 15 Jun 2024 in a record time, notwithstanding various challenges. This accomplishment underscores HSL's capability and commitment, positioning itself better for future EKM submarine orders under the 'Make in India' program.

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1802327893827330532 ---> Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) completes refit of Kilo Class submarine four months ahead of schedule. INS Sindhukirti was dry docked in HSL on 11th January, 2023 for a refit of 22 months at a cost of around ₹930 crores.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1809536635379278233 ---> Construction of AIP integration & testing facility of L&T started. These are for AIPs indigenously developed by NMRL of DRDO with L&T as prime industry partner.

[maitya]

Indian submarines set for indigenous edge in open seas

Behind a paywall ... somebody, pls post a summary, if possible.

BTW, there's shouldn't be anything in it that's already not commonly known here, but still!!

[wig]

India’s Kalvari-Class Submarines To Get Indigenous AIP System To Enhance Ability To Stay Underwater
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 571051.cms
08 July 2024

extracts....

The AIP system will enable submarines to stay underwater for almost two weeks, a substantial upgrade from the current few days. This development will provide a strategic advantage in naval operations

Kalvari will get the AIP fit when it comes in for major refit

DRDO chief Samir Kamat recently inaugurated an AIP Integration and Testing facility at L&T's AM Naik Heavy Engineering Complex. Over the next year, this advanced system will be manufactured and tested before being installed on a submarine at Mazagon Dockyard Limited (MDL).

Suman Roy Choudhury, programme director, AIP, Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL), confirmed that the AIP would be fitted on the INS Kalvari submarine during its first major refit in September next year. He was quoted as saying, "The AIP would be fitted onboard INS Kalvari submarine when it comes in for its first major refit in September next year." The INS Kalvari is the first submarine of the Scorpene class, built by MDL. The process of incorporating the AIP involves cutting the submarine into two halves and inserting a new AIP section. This procedure will increase both the length and weight of the submarine.

[JTull]

Will L&T just make the AIP, or the full AIP plug? Who'll do the installation? L&T or MDL? I am assuming that MDL will undertake the refit.

[Rakesh]

Indian submarines set for indigenous edge in open seas

Behind a paywall ... somebody, pls post a summary, if possible.

BTW, there's shouldn't be anything in it that's already not commonly known here, but still!!

Maitya-ji, I found the full article.

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1810172838726566287 ---> Indigenous AIP to increase underwater endurance of submarines will be fitted next year: senior DRDO scientist. AIP facility inaugurated at Hazira. DRDO ready to equip INS Kalvari when it comes for major refit submarine to be cut in half.

[Rakesh]

Will L&T just make the AIP, or the full AIP plug? Who'll do the installation? L&T or MDL? I am assuming that MDL will undertake the refit.

This is what I believe has happened:-

* DRDO designed & developed the AIP.

* L&T designed & developed the pressure hull around the AIP.

* DRDO and L&T are working together to integrate the AIP + Pressure Hull into one plug.

* The installation of the AIP Plug will be done by MDL, partnering with DRDO, L&T and Naval Group.

[fanne]

Is Sindhudhvaj (S 56) retired or is it he test bed for AIP? It was the original test bed submarine, where most new non Russian (mostly Indian) systems were tested. IN had said that they will only fit 'tested AIP' in Kalvery class subs. Can one assume that the testing has completed in Kilo class or that is just wishful thinking. It is being indeed tested first time in Kalveri class sub. What about indigenous LIB? These batteries are considered dangerous to operate and unless one develops tech around it to mitigate it, it means nothing (Japanese/korean navies have done that, perhaps years of effort).




https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/07/ins- ... or-at.html

Business Standard, 18th July 22
At sunset on Saturday, with an overcast sky adding to the solemnity of the occasion, the decommissioning pennant of Indian Naval Ship (INS) Sindhudhvaj was lowered and the Kilo-class submarine retired after 35 years of distinguished service.

One more Kilo-class submarine is earmarked to be given to the Defence Research & Development Organisation for use as a test-bed in developing the air-independent propulsion that will power 12 indigenous submarines to be built in the future.

“Sindhudhvaj, as the name suggests, was the flag bearer of indigenisation and the Indian Navy's efforts towards achieving Atmanirbharta in the Russian-built Sindhughosh-class submarine,” said the navy.
“She had many a firsts to her credit including operationalisation of the indigenised sonar USHUS, the indigenised satellite communication systems, Rukmani and MSS, an inertial navigation system and an indigenised torpedo fire control system,” it said.
The Sindhudhvaj successfully undertook mating of the boat with the Deep Submergence Rescue Vessel (DSRV) and was the only submarine to be awarded a trophy for innovation by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

[drnayar]

Is the INS Vagsheer testing out some indigenous " hi tech " equipment? some reports speculations ?

[JTull]

Will L&T just make the AIP, or the full AIP plug? Who'll do the installation? L&T or MDL? I am assuming that MDL will undertake the refit.

This is what I believe has happened:-

* DRDO designed & developed the AIP.

* L&T designed & developed the pressure hull around the AIP.

* DRDO and L&T are working together to integrate the AIP + Pressure Hull into one plug.

* The installation of the AIP Plug will be done by MDL, partnering with DRDO, L&T and Naval Group.

L&T fabricated the land based test article. DRDO just designed it. I don't think they could build it at scale themselves and so L&T became engineering partner at an early stage.

Since MDL will likely do the mid-life refit, all 3 will have to collaborate in some way. I want to understand the work share. Perhaps SJha or someone else in the know could elaborate.

[Rakesh]

Foreign Naval Experts Recognise the Indian Navy as Premier Security Provider in the Indian Ocean
https://accesshub.space/opinion-foreign ... dian-ocean
16 July 2024

[MeshaVishwas]

Sad.
We need to do a heck of a lot more to preserve our rich maritime history.

40 labourers to dismantle INS Sindhudhvaj weighing 2,000 tons in 6 months in Kannur - On Manorama

Kannur: Steel Industries Kerala Ltd (SILK) is set to undertake a landmark project in its history by dismantling the decommissioned submarine INS Sindhudvaj of the Indian Navy.
INS Sindhudvaj, the submarine that served the Indian Navy for 35 years, will be dismantled by SILK's skilled team at the Ship Breaking Unit at Azhikkal. This project is expected to not only showcase SILK's advanced capabilities in maritime engineering but also open up new avenues for similar ventures in the future.

“The project is a challenging one in the history of SILK. Though we have experience in dismantling around 60 ships and many boats, it is a fresh endeavour to break a submarine at our facility. We have taken this as a huge possibility to showcase our talent and expand our horizons to more challenging profiles. The firm is very optimistic at present and we have started getting fresh inquiries of similar works following the assignment to break one of the Indian Navy's proudest assets,” said T G Ullas Kumar, Managing Director of SILK.
The submarine weighs around 2,000 tons and SILK has engaged 30-40 labourers daily to break it. They are expected to complete the work in six months. “The major challenge of breaking a submarine is that around 50 per cent of its parts are submerged in water. The special interest of the state government has helped to get the work of the submarine otherwise it would have gone to Gujarat. The government has a policy to collect maximum scrap from the submarine as it has many precious minerals. We will break the submarine with a focus on collecting maximum reusable products. SILK is acting as a third party here,” Ullas Kumar added.

A private firm, Sithara Traders, has bought the submarine after decommissioning. They have approached the SILK to break it as there are only limited facilities in India with the expertise.

The scrap will be handed over to the firm that bought the submarine and SILK is expected to get a revenue of Rs 40 lakhs from this work. INS Sidhudwaj was commissioned into the Navy in 1987 and decommissioned on July 16, 2022. It has been brought from the Visakhapatnam port to Azhikkal for dismantling.

[ssaravanan]

INS Brahmaputra Severely Damaged In Fire, Lying On Its Side; Sailor Missing
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ins-bra ... _topscroll
July 22, 2024

[S_Madhukar]

Can't catch a break can we ? Another ship lost in that dockyard that looks more like a scrapyard. Looks like another job for the SILK guys above