Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[Khalsa]

Congratulations to all of us at Bharat Rakshak on this great day when the Mk1A has flown.
Congratulations to all of India and Indians.

Well done to the Fantastic team at HAL.

[drnayar]

The newer pics looks really TFTA.. maybe manufacturing tolerances gone up ..

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Duorope/status/1775959024661614742 ---> Uttam AESA radar has completed 125 flight tests on the Tejas Mk1 with few more remaining. The 41st Mk1A is expected to be equipped with the first Uttam radar - Director ADA.

[VinodTK]

#WriteTake l Q&A with Dr Jitendra Jadhav, Director, ADA l #TejasMk1A update l #TMH

Dr Jadhav says MK1A has a gun; however I cannot see it in any of the the pictures; If you have seen it can you please post the picture where the gun is visible

[basant]

#WriteTake l Q&A with Dr Jitendra Jadhav, Director, ADA l #TejasMk1A update l #TMH

Dr Jadhav says MK1A has a gun; however I cannot see it in any of the the pictures; If you have seen it can you please post the picture where the gun is visible

It does have the gun and is visible. Please check HAL's link on Twitter. Right-wing, below intake.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Duorope/status/1775959024661614742 ---> Uttam AESA radar has completed 125 flight tests on the Tejas Mk1 with few more remaining. The 41st Mk1A is expected to be equipped with the first Uttam radar - Director ADA.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1776213516787057116 ---> The Uttam AESA (784 TRM) variant isn’t the radar that will be used on Mk1A. Instead one made for Mk2 (900+) TRM will be used on it. I have dropped a query on “GaN vs GaAs” awaiting confirmation.

[srai]

^^^
Vaguely remember someone posting Mk2 nose cone smaller than Mk1/1A.

[basant]

^^^
Vaguely remember someone posting Mk2 nose cone smaller than Mk1/1A.

IR & NR on DDR.

[VishnuS]

https://x.com/Duorope/status/1775959024661614742 ---> Uttam AESA radar has completed 125 flight tests on the Tejas Mk1 with few more remaining. The 41st Mk1A is expected to be equipped with the first Uttam radar - Director ADA.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1776213516787057116 ---> The Uttam AESA (784 TRM) variant isn’t the radar that will be used on Mk1A. Instead one made for Mk2 (900+) TRM will be used on it. I have dropped a query on “GaN vs GaAs” awaiting confirmation.

What!

If this is true, then we're looking at a different beast here

Do we have any confirmation that Virupaksha uses GaAs and not GaN TRMs...

I thought the huge space and power from twin AL-31s would be the right place to experiment with GaN TRMs

[basant]

Do we have any confirmation that Virupaksha uses GaAs and not GaN TRMs...

Should be GaAs for Mk1A. That was the version tested extensively.

[Cybaru]

^^^
Vaguely remember someone posting Mk2 nose cone smaller than Mk1/1A.

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/1476023987637420033

LCA Mk2’s nose cone is smaller in length (~10%) and diameter (~10%) than Mk1s even though it will house a more powerful radar and internal IRST. In this thread, I want to show you how this is ONLY possible by build, learn, repeat. Instead of read (papers/brochures), think, repeat

[Cybaru]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1776213516787057116 ---> The Uttam AESA (784 TRM) variant isn’t the radar that will be used on Mk1A. Instead one made for Mk2 (900+) TRM will be used on it. I have dropped a query on “GaN vs GaAs” awaiting confirmation.

What!

If this is true, then we're looking at a different beast here

Do we have any confirmation that Virupaksha uses GaAs and not GaN TRMs...

I thought the huge space and power from twin AL-31s would be the right place to experiment with GaN TRMs

https://x.com/joe_sameer/status/1476029195402633216

Made possible by use of gallium nitride (GaN) in the Uttam AESA radar. GaN’s efficiency nearly doubles the TR modules here; components that use it emit approx five times the RF power of previous tech. For radars, that means better search capability at a lesser SWAP. Great upgrade

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/joe_sameer/status/1476029195402633216

Excellent Find! Best News Ever! Thanks CY!

[VishnuS]

Do we have any confirmation that Virupaksha uses GaAs and not GaN TRMs...

Should be GaAs for Mk1A. That was the version tested extensively.

Virupaksha is the radar to be used in Super Su 30MKI. I wanted to know whether we're going with GaAs or GaN.

[fanne]

Technology wise we have already moved to gan. Gan in general is 2x better than gaas. That includes power needed, search range, heat dissipated and yes cost. Other powers who are more invested in gaas (foundry, r&d etc.) have better gaas module than our gaas. They have not yet recouped their money back and are reluctant to move to gaan. Like telecom, we jumped from nothing to wireless, whereas western nations lingered a little longer with wired as they had massive investment in it. We have our gaaas set up and hence you hear that we will go with gaas based radar for lca as it has been extensively tested (but not produced in number). However at the same time we have mastered gan tech and is in testing for mk2 and su30mki. No reason it cannot be used for lca, particularly when it is delayed and that time can be taken to perfect the gan tech. I believe we will jump over gaas tech and go to gaan tech in all aspects. Even ground radars soon will appear with gaan. We have made enough of it to recoup our meager investment in gaas.

[srai]

^^^
If we think iteratively …

Mk1A
40 x ELM-2052 AESA
40 x Uttam AESA (GaA 784 TRM)
100 x Uttam AESA (GaN 900+ TRM)

[fanne]

The 41st mk1a is at least 3 years away. The gan radar is in Trial right now. I don’t see why this advanced radar cannot go in the 41st plane.

[maitya]

Do we have any confirmation that Virupaksha uses GaAs and not GaN TRMs...

Should be GaAs for Mk1A. That was the version tested extensively.

There had been this report by Indian Defense Analysis, as follows, on various Uttam versions in dev:

Report by Indian Defense Analysis
Ver 1 - GaAs for Mk1A - 912TR modules - exhibited DefExpo'22
Ver 2 - Scaled-up GaAs for Su30MKI - ~1600 TR modules - supposedly confirmed to Indian Def Analysis during AI'23
Ver 3 and 4 - GaN based for MK2, TEDBF and AMCA
...
...
plus a lot of other interesting tid-bits.

[basant]

I tried to dig for some official press-release or interview a bit but couldn't get past much beyond IDRW or equivalents. There are many posts of Twitter and other SM, but something from official sources would obviously be more conclusive. Wondered why someone did not interview the top brass of radars and then I realized that it is seldom done.

Funnily, we will know more through public tenders than public statements sometimes!

[Haridas]

Looks bit different to this study. Front view does look enlarged like in the study.

That new canopy is imho further refinement to this earlier study.

[mody]

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/indias- ... he-lowdown

Swarajya article on the Uttam AESA. The flight testing is almost complete. The performance is on par or slightly better than the Elta 2052 radar in all regimes. This is great news. This would put the current Uttam on par with the Aesa radars currently deployed on the F-16s and F-18s.
Radar slated to be taken up for production and Tejas MK1A will get it from the 41st aircraft onwards.

[Haridas]

What!

If this is true, then we're looking at a different beast here

Do we have any confirmation that Virupaksha uses GaAs and not GaN TRMs...

I thought the huge space and power from twin AL-31s would be the right place to experiment with GaN TRMs

https://x.com/joe_sameer/status/1476029195402633216

Made possible by use of gallium nitride (GaN) in the Uttam AESA radar. GaN’s efficiency nearly doubles the TR modules here; components that use it emit approx five times the RF power of previous tech. For radars, that means better search capability at a lesser SWAP. Great upgrade

See my assessment from Jan 2021 on this:

https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... vYSxA&s=19


Quote:
3. GaN die power output/mm versus GaAs is 3 to 9 times. While its higher operating junction temperature (200C vs 150C) and lower thermal resistance for heatsink, and higher power add efficiency easily enables 3-5 times greater output power while consuming 2-3 times the baseline power consumption for similar GaAs based TRM.

Hence it:
a) allows power output scale up of 3-5 times
b) greater reliability (for same power output and size)
d) easier cooling and weight (for same power output and size)
e) greater package density (for same power output and size)

4. Given that UTTAM will be LRDE's first X band AESA, I expect its GaN based TRM to have modest power output that is about 2-3 times of previous generation GaAs based Elta-2052.

With 2 times better Power Add efficiency, and higher thermal resistance budget for cooling that would require modest increase in operating power for the 3 times more output power. So a net 1.35*3 = 4 times more power output resulting in 41% greater range (1/4th power ratio)

5. After the first iteration of Uttam experience the subsequent Vishisht model (mera naam sanskaran) might see full exploitation of GaN, that will leveraged on module packaging & extremes of liquid cooling using micro-channel. Indian 5G experience will supplement it.
Net result would be another 3 times more power output, that will need a suitable higher power DC source.

So a net 3 times more power output resulting in 31% greater range (1/4th power ratio). IOW 86% more range compared to Elta-2052.

All the above assumes no improvement in receiver noise figure, as it is already near the best possible. Even 1 dB improvement will be a stretch goal.

[mody]

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/indias- ... he-lowdown

Swarajya article on the Uttam AESA. The flight testing is almost complete. The performance is on par or slightly better than the Elta 2052 radar in all regimes. This is great news. This would put the current Uttam on par with the Aesa radars currently deployed on the F-16s and F-18s.
Radar slated to be taken up for production and Tejas MK1A will get it from the 41st aircraft onwards.

The current Uttam AESA under development for the MK1A will be GaA based only, as per the interview given the Swarajya article as given above.
GaN based AESA may come for Tejas MK2 onwards.

[fanne]

My contention was different. I am a small man to make any difference in the decision making. Plus I do not have all the data point ( as in if advanced order has been placed for GaAs radar, and somebody has already invested money in it, then contractually and morally you are obligated to buy).
Having said that, GaN is at least a generation ahead of GaAs technology. It becomes more important if you are on a budget power wise (true for lca mk1, dare say mk2 and su30mki (when engine is the old one)). Also it helps detect LO platform better than GaAS. The software part between the two (from mk1a) perspective can be utilized fully for GaN tech( perhaps more testing - not much). And we are making them/ testing them now.
I am also hoping same company that makes GaAs is making GaN that way they may not mind shifting to GaN. It will make lca mk1a past 41 order a notch better. Plus you may not have to upgrade it radar wise 5 years down the line.

[ashishvikas]

Katrina still has GaAs based AESA. (Correct me if required)

Tejas MK1A is only other fighter in IAF having AESA after Rafale & Jaguars at the moment.. we should accept anything whatever can be produced quickly - GaA/GaN/2052.

[fanne]

Remember, next 40 mk1a is using ekta elta 2052. Looking at awesome speed of HAL delivery (mostly because of other constraint eg only 20 engines per year from ge), they will take 2-3 years to deliver them. Our radar does not get into production for next 2-3 years, we can finish GaN radar it by then. Of course if the delay is because of radar, gaas radar is always there.

[srai]

^^^
R&D is one thing; then production is a completely different matter. There are long lead times involved and 2-3 years is not much from this perspective. The design needs to be frozen soon and production related activities need to begin right away.

There will always be something better down the road … even something seemingly tantalizingly close… but that temptation to “wait” for something better leads to an endless cycle.

[Prem Kumar]

It makes sense to think of GaN only for the subsequent 97 Mk1a orders beyond the 83 (if GaN is fully tested out and production ready by then). We dont even know if there are plans to scale GaN Uttam to fit the Mk1a nose-cone

As srai says, this is a very common temptation to think Since we are very close, lets just wait for a few more months and induct the next gen. Its the enemy of progress. Scope-freeze is what is required.

Already, there are delays in Mk1a because, among reasons like subsystem availability from Europe, the IAF has also mandated changes (!!) not just to the software but to hardware as well

We can be 100% sure that, by the time

1) The first 40 Mk1a with 2052 are delivered
2) The next 42 with Uttam GaAs are delivered
3) The subsequent 97 are delivered (likely in batches)

.... there *will be* more requirements from the IAF - some justifiable, others not. Needless to say, they won't even think of these for the Rafale. But for Tejas, no such rules apply. We dont want to add other unknowns like GaNs to this mix

[SSridhar]

.. we should accept anything whatever can be produced quickly . . .

There will always be something better down the road … even something seemingly tantalizingly close… but that temptation to “wait” for something better leads to an endless cycle.

Absolutely.

[Aditya_V]

+1

what we need is the production ecosystem to get going, then even in the engine there will be market for replacement of Ge 404, that will get ecosystem going and the engine will be developed- salaries to scientists capex for setting up the industry etc.

That why additional order for Mk1A and MK2 is critical- these will ensure AMCA will also arrive as the Land, personal, material , Capex Machinery all will start becoming available. US took a long time as in the late 90s /2000's the computer chips, OBOGS, AESA radar- GAA/GAN material, were all just concepts then. Today some critical tech like weapons carried inside, developing a 5gen fuselage might be pending. But our 4.5 gen aircraft have many tech's which go into 5th and 6th gen platforms.

They key is to mass produce Mk1A/MK2- I am sure with the set up from the order for 83 MK1A, if we order 97 more in the few months- the supplier will be able to scale up and HAL can deliver the whole lot by 2030.

We must also try and get MK2 protype/ testing Production simultaneously quickly done. We can then have a pretty competitive AMCA by 2032 and very competitive AMCA MK2 for that day by 2035.

[Karan M]

It makes sense to think of GaN only for the subsequent 97 Mk1a orders beyond the 83 (if GaN is fully tested out and production ready by then). We dont even know if there are plans to scale GaN Uttam to fit the Mk1a nose-cone

As srai says, this is a very common temptation to think Since we are very close, lets just wait for a few more months and induct the next gen. Its the enemy of progress. Scope-freeze is what is required.

Already, there are delays in Mk1a because, among reasons like subsystem availability from Europe, the IAF has also mandated changes (!!) not just to the software but to hardware as well

We can be 100% sure that, by the time

1) The first 40 Mk1a with 2052 are delivered
2) The next 42 with Uttam GaAs are delivered
3) The subsequent 97 are delivered (likely in batches)

.... there *will be* more requirements from the IAF - some justifiable, others not. Needless to say, they won't even think of these for the Rafale. But for Tejas, no such rules apply. We dont want to add other unknowns like GaNs to this mix

Very sensible post.

The IAF wants the BNET SDR on the Mk1A, thats the "software change" as it has to be integrated with the on-board mission computer to share critical information including weapons quality tracks.

[nachiket]

The IAF wants the BNET SDR on the Mk1A, thats the "software change" as it has to be integrated with the on-board mission computer to share critical information including weapons quality tracks.

You have to wonder how many of these last minute requirements come in because of utter ignorance about how much work such a change actually entails both in the IAF and the MoD. HAL on its part seems unable to say no to such demands.

[basant]

It's pointless to talk of hardwork required from IAF when it is the very service asking for changes. And obviously they know what it entails and still indulge in it. MoD and HAL gulp it as, IMHO, they are too scared to annoy IAF that might further delay the procurement process. MoD, CAG, HAL, DRDO all can improve. However, many times it looks as if they, not IAF, are the only ones really interested in the development and manufacture of desi fighters.

Let’s ask ourselves, how many times IAF asked for strengthening of Jet engine R&D? For flying test bed procurement, leave alone funding for it like IN that actually extended funding and personnel for NLCA? Unkil can screw potentially 300+ Tejas blocking engine production. What's plan B that IAF has?

From what I have seen over a long time, in one phase IAF stretches development cycle of fighters with too many objections and leaks that imported maal never faces. Then cribs about problems with slow rate of production. The fact that the GoI tolerates such behavior is beyond my comprehension.

[titash]

It's pointless to talk of hardwork required from IAF when it is the very service asking for changes. And obviously they know what it entails and still indulge in it. MoD and HAL gulp it as, IMHO, they are too scared to annoy IAF that might further delay the procurement process. MoD, CAG, HAL, DRDO all can improve. However, many times it looks as if they, not IAF, are the only ones really interested in the development and manufacture of desi fighters.

Let’s ask ourselves, how many times IAF asked for strengthening of Jet engine R&D? For flying test bed procurement, leave alone funding for it like IN that actually extended funding and personnel for NLCA? Unkil can screw potentially 300+ Tejas blocking engine production. What's plan B that IAF has?

From what I have seen over a long time, in one phase IAF stretches development cycle of fighters with too many objections and leaks that imported maal never faces. Then cribs about problems with slow rate of production. The fact that the GoI tolerates such behavior is beyond my comprehension.

All that will change over time. With 220 LCAs in squadron service in the next 5-10 years, every second or third IAF pilot will spend half his flying hours on the Tejas. Rest assured they'll come with positive impressions around flying qualities, ease of sensor / weapons upgrades & integration, ease of maintainability, high availability, etc.

All this means the feeder streams of pro-desi pilots into the senior ranks is just a matter of time. Things will only get better as the induction of unmanned platforms like Ghatak/SWIFT/CATS Warrior etc. progresses for which a desi engine (dry Kaveri, HAL HTFE-25) already exists.

[Prem Kumar]

It is when we are closest to victory that we are most vulnerable

[ashishvikas]

Defence Ministry issues Rs 65,000 cr tender to HAL for buying 97 LCA Mark 1A fighter jets
https://www.aninews.in/news/business/de ... 412120617/

Defence Ministry has issued a tender to the public sector firm Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for purchasing made-in-India 97 LCA Mark 1A fighter jets expected to be worth over Rs65,000 crore.

This is set to be the largest order for indigenous military hardware to be placed by the Indian government ever to the HAL recently and they have been given three months to respond to it.

The programme will help the IAF to replace its fleet of MiG-21s, MiG-23s and MiG-27s which have been either phased out or are set to be phased out in near future, government officials told ANI.

[Aditya_V]

Very good to hear, the faster the contract is finalized, we can start developing our production ecosystem.

From the press release

https://www.aninews.in/news/business/de ... 412120617/

The HAL is all set to bag deals for buying over 200 LCA Mark 2's and a similar number of fifth generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[ashthor]

Now Katrina will also come for sure. Looks like you order Tejas first then i will order Rafale.

[AkshaySG]

Where does "issuing a tender" fall in our AON—CCS—DAC clearance etc etc 27 step procurement process?

Is the only thing left is for HAL to respond to the tender and start contract negotiations or is there additional clearances/procedures still remaining

[Rakesh]

Defence Ministry issues Rs 65,000 cr tender to HAL for buying 97 LCA Mark 1A fighter jets
https://www.aninews.in/news/business/de ... 412120617/

Great news. Will update page 1 when the contract is inked.

Now Katrina will also come for sure. Looks like you order Tejas first then i will order Rafale.

Bingo! Line up all the orders for the desi ducks first (40 Tejas Mk1 + 83 Tejas Mk1A + 97 Tejas Mk1A + 200 Tejas Mk2), before placing order for the French squall. A well played strategy by Air HQ, that is designed to drown out the noise.

Saurav Jha's tweet is slowly, but surely, becoming a reality. Apart from the 189, the rest of the fleet is virtually Indian. Post the Super Sukhoi ugprade, the Rambhas will have more Indian content in them than Russian.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1773283439996797189?s=20 ---> 220 + 201 + 272 + 189 = 882

I believe the 189 is some combination of the 36 Rafales + MRFA + MRCBF (26 Rafale Ms). Earlier I thought AMCA was included in that list, but I doubt that.