Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
There are a lot of more pressing low hanging fruit and easily attainable targets that DG artillery should concentrate. Chief among these are increasing the stock of 155mm shells to 3x the current value and figuring out a strategy to counter low cost suicide drone swarms that will inevitably come to take out artillery guns. Solutions for both exist right now with Indian industry - the first is a matter of placing orders and building shelters, the second by either going for longer range guns 155 x 52 with high litre capacity with an organic anti drone solution.
Rather the generals seem to be happy to try to get Athos or fanciful ramjet shells that are too expensive to use in volume.
Rather the generals seem to be happy to try to get Athos or fanciful ramjet shells that are too expensive to use in volume.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
I'd take all the claims of ramjet artillery with a grain of salt. Gen PRS was in the forefront of stating of how straightforward it all was and how the Defence R&D guys would be taught a lesson by the IIT Madras team he'd assembled this, that etc and etc. Now of course it's "failures are a road to success". In other words he's learning these things are non linear and will take time to fix. Meanwhile we need what is mature and what is available.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXt5eElm2AU
On The Shop Floor | India Has Potential To Become Global Defence Hub: Baba Kalyani
kalyani has sunk 800 cr in R&D. they have team of 150 (Phds and Mtech) design engg
On The Shop Floor | India Has Potential To Become Global Defence Hub: Baba Kalyani
kalyani has sunk 800 cr in R&D. they have team of 150 (Phds and Mtech) design engg
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Watching the shenanigans of the Indian army over the last few years. I feel sorry for Kalyani. His only hope is an export market.
The Army is out to make sure that no Kalyani will rise again in India.
The Army is out to make sure that no Kalyani will rise again in India.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Nice interview, though the first 10 minutes are wasted in general history of the company. Baba Kalyani says they started with trying to make barrels for T-72 tanks for Indian army, but the army / ofb guys always thought of a way to reject his products and get him out of business. This mafia of generals and public sector dudes, positioned rabidly against the private sector in India, needs to go if India has to emerge as a world-class military power. While OFB dudes are protecting their monopoly of making gutter-class products, generals are protecting imports and gravy train of commissions and foreign junkets. Kalyani can design and produce a world-class rifle in six months but the same mafia prevents this from happening, and goes for imports or OFB. Baba Kalyani is ageing. I fear he may wither away in a decade, but the mafia won't give an inch. Modi needs to wield the hammer
Last edited by sanjayc on 08 Apr 2024 08:15, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
While I agree with you (he acts like a *rick), and, I have had pretty challenging interactions with Gen. PRS, we need to support the tech/sci efforts.Karan M wrote: ↑19 Mar 2024 18:09 I'd take all the claims of ramjet artillery with a grain of salt. Gen PRS was in the forefront of stating of how straightforward it all was and how the Defence R&D guys would be taught a lesson by the IIT Madras team he'd assembled this, that etc and etc. Now of course it's "failures are a road to success". In other words he's learning these things are non linear and will take time to fix. Meanwhile we need what is mature and what is available.
The solutions are technical, not emotional. Emotions need to be parked.
This is doable.
__________________________________________________________________
Added l8r:
Rope in that Mongol. He has pulls in that IIT area.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
There is a line of succession, his son Amit Kalyani has been working with BF for 25 years.sanjayc wrote: ↑08 Apr 2024 07:57 Nice interview, though the first 10 minutes are wasted in general history of the company. Baba Kalyani says they started with trying to make barrels for T-72 tanks for Indian army, but the army / ofb guys always thought of a way to reject his products and get him out of business. This mafia of generals and public sector dudes, positioned rabidly against the private sector in India, needs to go if India has to emerge as a world-class military power. While OFB dudes are protecting their monopoly of making gutter-class products, generals are protecting imports and gravy train of commissions and foreign junkets. Kalyani can design and produce a world-class rifle in six months but the same mafia prevents this from happening, and goes for imports or OFB. Baba Kalyani is ageing. I fear he may wither away in a decade, but the mafia won't give an inch. Modi needs to wield the hammer
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 2011873739
Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems (KRAS) in Hyderabad, as been certified a “secret” facility and will undertake sensitive defence projects for the Indian and Israeli defence ministries.
Kalyani is progressing very well in Defence manufacturing, Hope that they will get integrated in new corporatized OFB.
Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems (KRAS) in Hyderabad, as been certified a “secret” facility and will undertake sensitive defence projects for the Indian and Israeli defence ministries.
Kalyani is progressing very well in Defence manufacturing, Hope that they will get integrated in new corporatized OFB.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
In the interview linked above Baba Kalyani says that they r making spike Atgm in Hyd. Maybe there is more stuff which is secretAmol0922 wrote: ↑08 Apr 2024 15:29 https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 2011873739
Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems (KRAS) in Hyderabad, as been certified a “secret” facility and will undertake sensitive defence projects for the Indian and Israeli defence ministries.
Kalyani is progressing very well in Defence manufacturing, Hope that they will get integrated in new corporatized OFB.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Which is precisely the point. These folks ego driven prescriptions always run up against tech reality only after they disparage whatever is already being done. That disparaging narrative sabotages so many iterative efforts. He was pushing ramjet arty over a ready ATAGS. Where are his ramjet rounds now. Meanwhile a negative narrative about ATAGS, expensive, heavy was spread.NRao wrote: ↑08 Apr 2024 08:04While I agree with you (he acts like a *rick), and, I have had pretty challenging interactions with Gen. PRS, we need to support the tech/sci efforts.Karan M wrote: ↑19 Mar 2024 18:09 I'd take all the claims of ramjet artillery with a grain of salt. Gen PRS was in the forefront of stating of how straightforward it all was and how the Defence R&D guys would be taught a lesson by the IIT Madras team he'd assembled this, that etc and etc. Now of course it's "failures are a road to success". In other words he's learning these things are non linear and will take time to fix. Meanwhile we need what is mature and what is available.
The solutions are technical, not emotional. Emotions need to be parked.
This is doable.
__________________________________________________________________
Added l8r:
Rope in that Mongol. He has pulls in that IIT area.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Somebody ask this guy to start posting sources for his claims.Amol0922 wrote: ↑08 Apr 2024 15:29 https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 2011873739
Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems (KRAS) in Hyderabad, as been certified a “secret” facility and will undertake sensitive defence projects for the Indian and Israeli defence ministries.
Kalyani is progressing very well in Defence manufacturing, Hope that they will get integrated in new corporatized OFB.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
DRDO worked withTata and Bharat Forge and ATAGS has still taken it's time. DPSUs aren't some poor quality competitors de jure. Midhani makes world class gear too. OFB ammo is now widely exported and sought after given the Ukrainian conflict. It's received a positive rep for it's quality so far.sanjayc wrote: ↑08 Apr 2024 07:57 Nice interview, though the first 10 minutes are wasted in general history of the company. Baba Kalyani says they started with trying to make barrels for T-72 tanks for Indian army, but the army / ofb guys always thought of a way to reject his products and get him out of business. This mafia of generals and public sector dudes, positioned rabidly against the private sector in India, needs to go if India has to emerge as a world-class military power. While OFB dudes are protecting their monopoly of making gutter-class products, generals are protecting imports and gravy train of commissions and foreign junkets. Kalyani can design and produce a world-class rifle in six months but the same mafia prevents this from happening, and goes for imports or OFB. Baba Kalyani is ageing. I fear he may wither away in a decade, but the mafia won't give an inch. Modi needs to wield the hammer
A lot of OFB infra was pathetic and deliberately kept obsolete along with chalta hain IOFS. Post corporatization, they are competing with pvt sector for all deals.
Aim should be to harness the capacity in both PSU and pvt not support one above the other. Also hold both to the same standards as well.
Modi Govt PMO has already bought into the magic pvt sector magic claims as is and have been gamed by fake IDDM type deals already. I only hope they arent saddled with a mega scam as some ambitious pvt vendor passes off a screwdriver import as an IDDM deal. We will all be affected if this Govt falls due to such craziness.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
You can find reference over here:Karan M wrote: ↑09 Apr 2024 22:46Somebody ask this guy to start posting sources for his claims.Amol0922 wrote: ↑08 Apr 2024 15:29 https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 2011873739
Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems (KRAS) in Hyderabad, as been certified a “secret” facility and will undertake sensitive defence projects for the Indian and Israeli defence ministries.
Kalyani is progressing very well in Defence manufacturing, Hope that they will get integrated in new corporatized OFB.
https://www.krasindia.com/about-us.php
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Thanks, I wish he does too. It's increasingly hard to take some of his statements seriously when sources are missing.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
https://idrw.org/towed-vs-mounted-guns- ... artillery/
IDRW, is posting that the Indian army is in favour of towed arty, over other varieties of arty. Because of concealment and lower logistical footprint.
IDRW, is posting that the Indian army is in favour of towed arty, over other varieties of arty. Because of concealment and lower logistical footprint.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
We need all kinds since all weapon systems are compromises.Pratyush wrote: ↑12 Apr 2024 11:42 https://idrw.org/towed-vs-mounted-guns- ... artillery/
IDRW, is posting that the Indian army is in favour of towed arty, over other varieties of arty. Because of concealment and lower logistical footprint.
Towed artillery advantages are listed in your post.
Western artillery commands and analysts have drawn other inferences from the Ukraine experience. They value a highly mobile SP gun as they have seen the Russian counter battery fire has been very effective as the kill chain has been short and fast.
They remarked that specifically for the ukraine russian theatre they feel that SP pieces which are highly mobile across the muddy slushy terrain (tracked instead of wheeled) and easy to maintain / repair in the field (not over engineered like the german PzH 2000) are more survivable than towed artillery at they have lost almost a third of the M777s they provided ukraine. They do admit that these need good transportation facility to the fronts. However costs are an issue as the SPGs are almost 30% or more costlier than the towed guns to procure and have higher opex as well.
So the ideal type varies based on whether your opponent is peer level or not, whether you have absolute air supremacy or not, and in the new age, whether your anti-air / anti-drone defence is as agile as your artillery and capable of tracking and killing low flying aerial threats.
India faces all kinds of threats. And in varied terrains. Recalling (IIRC) what Shiv Ji used to say - 'We are a huge nation and we need all types of weapons'
Edit - an article about the artillery war in Ukraine
https://euro-sd.com/2023/10/articles/34 ... y-picture/
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1780115070380585083 ---> JUST IN: Ordnance Factory, Ambajhari has successfully fielded trials of 155mm HE Bourrelet Shells jointly developed in association with ARDE. Trials conducted in PXE, Balasore from 155x52 calibre ATAGS. Range & accuracy are very encouraging, achieved 34 km.
Bourrelet Shell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourrelet
https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1780116269645345231 ---> Next in Line, trials of Jai/Reliance Ammunition Limited 155mm HE Bourrelet rounds. Both OFJ and Jai Ammunition Limited got the development contract for the development of 155mm HE Bourrelet rounds from ARDE, DRDO.
Bourrelet Shell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourrelet
https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1780116269645345231 ---> Next in Line, trials of Jai/Reliance Ammunition Limited 155mm HE Bourrelet rounds. Both OFJ and Jai Ammunition Limited got the development contract for the development of 155mm HE Bourrelet rounds from ARDE, DRDO.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
What is it used for?
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
This might be of some help - Projectile Design
Check the function of the Bourrelet and the Rotating Band
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
BSI Explains: आइए जानते हैं K9 Vajra के बारे में
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1786282733372936666 ---> Indian Army to award contract for 250-280 units of 6x6 Multi Terrain Gun Towing Vehicles (GTV). The contract is likely to be concluded within 6 months and is valued around ₹2,000 crore. TATA and Ashok Leyland are the front runners.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
I think that someone has added either one zero to the cost of procurement. Or have removed one zero from the proposed numbers.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
That comes out to around 7-8 crore per vehicle which seems a bit high, Maybe it's 200cr instead of 2000Rakesh wrote: ↑03 May 2024 17:39 https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1786282733372936666 ---> Indian Army to award contract for 250-280 units of 6x6 Multi Terrain Gun Towing Vehicles (GTV). The contract is likely to be concluded within 6 months and is valued around ₹2,000 crore. TATA and Ashok Leyland are the front runners.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Is the tender restricted to only Indian made and manufactured vehicles? Or are imports allowed (which might account for the higher cost).
IIRC transport vehicles are on the import blacklist.
IIRC transport vehicles are on the import blacklist.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Aren’t they also supposed to have reload and other systems? It’s certainly not going to be 0.6 Cr each
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1709548750287626368 ---> Automatic Gun Barrel Inspection & Cleaning Robot (ABCR) for 125mm & 155mm barrels developed by Pune-based 'Bit Mapper' on display at #Swavlamban2023.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
https://twitter.com/talkrealopinion/sta ... aBDtw&s=19
Ukrainian soldier about the Western weapons:
''We've fought to get M777 howitzer but when they were ordered no one looked that you need a lot of replacement barrels for them. The howitzers were brought in but there are no barrels, they've exhausted very quickly. The barrels are no more, they gave the ammunition, the shells are there but nothing to shoot from.''
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Remember I had estimated M777 barrel life around 1100 rounds?
BAE was adamant that IA testing caused the barrel to burst when it was barrel erosion.
IA needs to ensure enough barrels before deploying.
Fastrack the 155mm 39 caliber barrel mfg.
Learn from Ukraine. Importing is not the solution.
BAE was adamant that IA testing caused the barrel to burst when it was barrel erosion.
IA needs to ensure enough barrels before deploying.
Fastrack the 155mm 39 caliber barrel mfg.
Learn from Ukraine. Importing is not the solution.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
^ this is what happens when you go to war against a manufacturing nation thinking it will be a quick & short war before the politicians step up in the nick of time to broker a deal.
A stark wake up call for us.
A stark wake up call for us.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Its not "stark". This is basic war fighiting doctrine. How many wars did India lose depending on imported "Arabian" horses?
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
The plain fact is that the wars we fought in the previous century have been short.
Then terms like 'next generation warfare', 'irregular warfare', etc have been used so much in the last few decades that 'basic warfare' has been relegated to the back ground.
Decades of counterinsurgency have shaped the thinking (both the civilian and the military) accordingly.
Even today we think that our opponents don't want to fight a long war with us as it is economically damaging.
Folks laugh at the Chinese Bruce Lee's 'The art of fighting without fighting' dialogue.. but don't relate it to what the PLAAF does to the JASDF - force them to make a lot of scrambles with their costly imported fighters bringing down their shelf life/availability rate even before an actual war begins.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Even short sharp war sees heavy usage of artillery.
In case of guns, need ammo, fuzes and barrels.
Ammo we have OFB and Adani factory
Fuzes BEL set up a factory in Pune and filling at a nearby facility but haven't heard any updates.
Barrels OFB and Bharat Forge are there.
Don't know production rate
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
^ yes.
I remember reading on BRF about the munitions expended daily in Kargil.
Hopefully that experience decades ago lead to an actual increase in manufacturing (and storage capacity) and not just 'We need to increase....' type announcements? An incremental increase of atleast 25% to 50% over those numbers should be in place by now.
An export focused policy might lead to a 100% 200% jump quickly, especially if private entities are given license.
A recent deal with KSA for artillery shells shows the market potential. It helps that our current PM is a very good salesman.
(Added - noted the recent setups mentioned by you. Counting on them to have given us a 20%-25% jump in capacity. And hopefully the additional 10-15% capacity increase via improvement in processes, efficiency(work culture?), technology in the existing OFB setups which were already present during Kargil.
I seem to remember that a poster (Chetak ji?) had put up a detailed post on the above. Will try to look it up for refreshing my knowledge)
I remember reading on BRF about the munitions expended daily in Kargil.
Hopefully that experience decades ago lead to an actual increase in manufacturing (and storage capacity) and not just 'We need to increase....' type announcements? An incremental increase of atleast 25% to 50% over those numbers should be in place by now.
An export focused policy might lead to a 100% 200% jump quickly, especially if private entities are given license.
A recent deal with KSA for artillery shells shows the market potential. It helps that our current PM is a very good salesman.
(Added - noted the recent setups mentioned by you. Counting on them to have given us a 20%-25% jump in capacity. And hopefully the additional 10-15% capacity increase via improvement in processes, efficiency(work culture?), technology in the existing OFB setups which were already present during Kargil.
I seem to remember that a poster (Chetak ji?) had put up a detailed post on the above. Will try to look it up for refreshing my knowledge)
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
https://www.opindia.com/2024/05/atmanir ... cial-year/
Quoting from the article.
As a result of a gradual implementation of a negative import list or positive indigenisation lists, foreign producers currently supply only 5–10% of the army’s ammunition requirements.
The aim is to stop all ammunition imports by 2025-26
Quoting from the article.
As a result of a gradual implementation of a negative import list or positive indigenisation lists, foreign producers currently supply only 5–10% of the army’s ammunition requirements.
The aim is to stop all ammunition imports by 2025-26
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/as-indi ... d-howitzer
Pakistan could possibly be ordering more than 400 SH-15 truck mounted howitzers from China, whereas we are still twiddling our thumbs.
The order for ATAGS, repeat order for K-9 Vajra, additional orders for Dhanush either 45 cal or 52 Cal, 105mm Garuda type high mobility MGS, 155mm
52 cal MGS, 155mm 39cal light weight MGS, additional orders for Indian light weight 155mm Towed guns...the list is endless. We are waiting for orders for all of the above to be placed. At this rate, even the Pakis will outgun us, forget about China.
Pakistan could possibly be ordering more than 400 SH-15 truck mounted howitzers from China, whereas we are still twiddling our thumbs.
The order for ATAGS, repeat order for K-9 Vajra, additional orders for Dhanush either 45 cal or 52 Cal, 105mm Garuda type high mobility MGS, 155mm
52 cal MGS, 155mm 39cal light weight MGS, additional orders for Indian light weight 155mm Towed guns...the list is endless. We are waiting for orders for all of the above to be placed. At this rate, even the Pakis will outgun us, forget about China.
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Baba Kalyani has stated in the past that they can produce 100 ATAGS pieces per annum.ramana wrote: ↑10 May 2024 00:09
Even short sharp war sees heavy usage of artillery.
In case of guns, need ammo, fuzes and barrels.
Ammo we have OFB and Adani factory
Fuzes BEL set up a factory in Pune and filling at a nearby facility but haven't heard any updates.
Barrels OFB and Bharat Forge are there.
Don't know production rate
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 463043.ece
Bharat Forge can supply 100 artillery guns every year
Published on May 26, 2022 at 02:06 PM.
You can see that the Indian army has not placed any orders for indigenous guns over the last 2 years.
In the absence of confirmed orders you are not going to have the ability to maintain production capacity.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Baba Kalyani's son, in an interview recently, said that they can ramp up production to even 250 Guns per annum!!
As mody said above, forget China, overmatch vs Pakistan or 2.5 front war! We are facing a situation where Pakis will outgun us
Given the massive indigenous production capacity, this is criminal negligence by the IA leadership import lobby, bordering on treason
Like it or not, Modi Ji needs to step in and clean house
As mody said above, forget China, overmatch vs Pakistan or 2.5 front war! We are facing a situation where Pakis will outgun us
Given the massive indigenous production capacity, this is criminal negligence by the IA leadership import lobby, bordering on treason
Like it or not, Modi Ji needs to step in and clean house
Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion
Most if not all invaders / conquars of India had better artilary then the localsPrem Kumar wrote: ↑11 May 2024 12:39 As mody said above, forget China, overmatch vs Pakistan or 2.5 front war! We are facing a situation where Pakis will outgun us
may be history is repeating