Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[JTull]

Great news!

I hope these 97 are MK1B as it would be a shame to have same aircraft as today being made in 2032. I'd like to see co-cured wings with wingtip rails and a desi IRST being brought in from Mk2 variant.

[titash]

Defence Ministry issues Rs 65,000 cr tender to HAL for buying 97 LCA Mark 1A fighter jets
https://www.aninews.in/news/business/de ... 412120617/

Great news. Will update page 1 when the contract is inked.

Now Katrina will also come for sure. Looks like you order Tejas first then i will order Rafale.

Bingo! Line up all the orders for the desi ducks first (40 Tejas Mk1 + 83 Tejas Mk1A + 97 Tejas Mk1A + 200 Tejas Mk2), before placing order for the French squall. A well played strategy by Air HQ, that is designed to drown out the noise.

Saurav Jha's tweet is slowly, but surely, becoming a reality. Apart from the 189, the rest of the fleet is virtually Indian. Post the Super Sukhoi ugprade, the Rambhas will have more Indian content in them than Russian.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1773283439996797189?s=20 ---> 220 + 201 + 272 + 189 = 882

I believe the 189 is some combination of the 36 Rafales + MRFA + MRCBF (26 Rafale Ms). Earlier I thought AMCA was included in that list, but I doubt that.

189 will be Rafales only Sirjee. The original MMRCA tender was 18 + 108 = 126, plus 50% options i.e. approx. 63

The IAF will be very leery of putting all its aircraft engines in a very sanction prone bucket

220 Tejas Mk1/Mk1A + 100-200 Tejas Mk2 + 40 AMCA Mk1 is a ton of high utilization 'dal-chawal' fighters at risk of being grounded by US sanctions

The 272 Su-30MK1s don't appear to have a suitable Russian replacement as of yet. These will be replaced by a customized variant of the Russian Su-57 (as an off-the-shelf buy once the product matures) or the AMCA Mk2 version with a locally sourced engine (assuming it fructifies)

The 189 will be Rafales, simply for de-risking purposes, and to have a top-of-the-line 'biryani' western fighter

[Manish_P]

...
The IAF will be very leery of putting all its aircraft engines in a very sanction prone bucket

220 Tejas Mk1/Mk1A + 100-200 Tejas Mk2 + 40 AMCA Mk1 is a ton of high utilization 'dal-chawal' fighters at risk of being grounded by US sanctions
...

That's half or more of the Airforce at risk. A very scary thought indeed.

Reminds me of the scene in The Departed -

Mr. French* - "Well, I'm the guy that tells you there are guys you can hit and there's guys you can't."

* oh the irony

[bala]

...
The IAF will be very leery of putting all its aircraft engines in a very sanction prone bucket

220 Tejas Mk1/Mk1A + 100-200 Tejas Mk2 + 40 AMCA Mk1 is a ton of high utilization 'dal-chawal' fighters at risk of being grounded by US sanctions
...

That's half or more of the Airforce at risk. A very scary thought indeed.

This is why the Kaveri program must continue and the GOI needs to double/triple the effort for an indigenous engine. India is at a stage where every area/arena requires world leadership, that include IDDM commercial aircraft. Dependency of any kind will be exploited, all imported items must be worked upon for IDDM. When more than 50% global competency centers (GCC) are in India, this should not be problem, all it requires is focus at the high level and singular goal of achievements.

[vijayk]

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 780629.ece
Jet engine deal with France will give 100% access to technology, says Indian envoy
Engine to power Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, which is being developed; talks on between Safran, DRDO on arriving at specifications that comply with India’s future fighter jet requirements

[Rakesh]

When Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria (retd) recently joined the BJP, many were elated as he is a strong proponent of Atmanirbhar Bharat. The Indian defence community on Twitter was jumping up with joy. This same community - I am afraid - will be disappointed when the dice is finally rolled by Bhadauria Sir. IMVHO, Sir is being brought on board to handle the messaging.

The 2024 Elections will indeed spell the end of the MMRCA/MRFA saga. The second tranche of 97 Mk1As will be ordered, the 26 Rafale Ms will be ordered, there will be a firm commitment on the Tejas Mk2 by Air HQ and to tie these up, will be the MRFA. And who better to drive that message home than Sir himself. You really have to hand it to the Govt and especially the PM. NaMo plays chess 10 steps ahead of everyone else.

97 Mk1As: RFP Issued.
26 Rafale Ms: Negotiations Ongoing.
200 Tejas Mk2: On track as per plan.
MRFA: Coming!

So HAL has got three months to respond to this RFP issued by the MoD. So by June, we should have an idea as to how much HAL will be costing this second tranche. June is also when the results of the general elections will be out. Piece the Puzzle together

And look who just tweeted about the second tranche of Tejas Mk1As

https://x.com/RKSBIAF/status/1778724438881792013 ---> HAL gets additional 97 LCA Mark 1A RFP. Game changing step by Govt & IAF for an Indigenous Military Aerospace ecosystem. Coming alongside first flight of LCA Mark 1A gives HAL unprecedented manufacturing visibility and a huge opportunity to revolutionize the industry.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1778800273445773342 ---> The IAF is getting 180 AESA-equipped Tejas Mk1As at a cost of around $14 billion. Imagine: had the progress been slashed after Mk1 cited not meeting all the requirements, how much would we have to invest in acquiring a foreign platform!

^^^ We do not need to imagine such a scenario. Some *REAL* examples below of the gratuitous advice that India received with regards to her indigenous military aerospace ecosystem. An article from 2011 when there was a lot of uncertainty around the Tejas program. If India had followed this nonsensical advice back then, there would have been no innovation and no active programs today. Kudos to all who pushed ahead all these years, regardless of the opposition. Many pranams to Parrikar Sir who made the Mk1A possible.

Enjoy the quotes below with popcorn. The comedy writes itself!

https://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf , Page 109

In fact, the Gripen is so light, relative to the competition, that the IAF would be better served by purchasing it in place of its own Tejas LCA, which is growing in weight, does not have the combat capabilities anywhere close to the Gripen’s, and lacks both the information fusing and the human engineering factors that distinguish the Swedish aircraft. All these virtues admittedly come at a rather high unit price — especially compared with what the Tejas will likely cost the IAF in comparison.

https://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf , Page 122

Although the service is still committed to acquiring the LCA, it will soon have to make some fundamental decisions about whether the Tejas can actually deliver what the IAF needs in its low-end air combat component to match Pakistan’s deployment of aircraft like the JF17 and China’s deployment of late-model F-7s, F-8s, and JF-17s—all of which will carry BVR weapons.

https://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf , Page 123

If the service is unable to find a satisfactory replacement for the MiG-21 BISON and the Tejas, it makes sense for the IAF to select the cheapest possible MMRCA contender, such as the F-16IN or the F/A-18E/F, and produce it in the largest possible numbers.

https://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf , Page 128

Given the risks involved, however, the AMCA should not be conceived as a replacement for the F-35s—which the IAF should seek to acquire as early as possible as a replacement for the Jaguars and the MiG-27s—but as a substitute for the Tejas LCA in the lighter-weight multi-role mission over the longer term. In this scenario, the Tejas airframes that survive would be relegated to the short range back-up role, before ending their lives primarily as operational conversion or training platforms.

[Rakesh]

...

I really enjoy reading your posts. Thank You for your reply. Greatly appreciated.

[nachiket]

This is a real lungi dance moment. Hopefully the process from tender to order signing does not drag too long. This should be the final nail in the MRFA coffin. I look forward to the day we can finally lock the MRFA thread on this forum and lay what is basically the reanimated corpse of the MMRCA competition to rest.

[srin]

I'm quite interested in what HAL provides as timeline to complete the order. I'm hoping that with the orders in hand, they can scale up production and be done with deliveries by the time Mk2 is ready for production.

[Khalsa]

One of the best years and month or two month period this is turning out to be.
Congratulations this time to first of all us BRFites.
On the occasion of further 97 Tejas Mk1a and possibly more than 200 Mk2

[srai]

This is a real lungi dance moment. Hopefully the process from tender to order signing does not drag too long. This should be the final nail in the MRFA coffin. I look forward to the day we can finally lock the MRFA thread on this forum and lay what is basically the reanimated corpse of the MMRCA competition to rest.

+1

When the deal is signed for 97 more Mk1A (plus 83 previous), $14 billion of the IAF’s capital portion of the budget will be committed; then follow this up with 200 Mk2 in a few years. Less available for any imports.

Beginning of an end for mass imported fighters. Token orders yes; but not more than few tens.

[ashthor]

189 will be Rafales only Sirjee. The original MMRCA tender was 18 + 108 = 126, plus 50% options i.e. approx. 63

36+26+26(asumming a second order for M)=88 so another 101 Rafales for airforce. Total 137

Why not cap it at 126 and invest in ORCA now that TEDBF will be coming.

[srai]

^^^
Rafales are super expensive.

Same Modi GoI didn’t sign the 126 in its first term (only 36); second term nothing other than change the contest twice.

I don’t see how people are “guaranteeing” in the 3rd term?

Note: The IN 26 N-Rafales might happen.

In the Indian context, it usually is either-or and not both. Funds allocated are limited. Either you get your Rafales or you get Tejas.

[ashishvikas]

IMO, Rafales are somehow linked with Engine deal.

Even, Tejas Mk2 was on technically HOLD for 414s deal.

[srai]

^^^
Well, 36 Rafale deal was supposed to expedite Kaveri engine with some form of JV between GTRE Kaveri-Snecma M88.

Long time has passed since (almost a decade now). Still nothing to show for it!

[Prem Kumar]

That wouldn't be a bad idea - holding further Rafale orders ransom till we extract maximum juice for indigenous turbofan for AMCA as a JV with Safran. Though its highly doubtful that they will part with the crown jewels at any price

If the MRFA is the stick to hardball negotiate with them, then its fine. Provided the IAF does not believe in its own kool-aid and start a wasteful MMRCA 2.0 tamasha

One spinoff benefit of Tejas (& indigenous MIC) is that the Govt has TIME on its hands. If Safran delays or dithers on ToT, we can delay the Rafale order and make up the shortfall using Tejas Mk1a & Mk2. We can squeeze their testimonials by saying that if they delay beyond a point, follow-on Rafales for the IAF might disappear altogether

But ultimately, the Govt should put together a $10 Billion National Turbofan Mission like they did for Semiconductors & PLI. This should take a purely indigenous route with academy, industry, ADA, HAL, IAF collaboration.

Even if Safran-JV comes through, the Turbofan Mission should remain independent. Meanwhile, keep talking to GE to have a 414 backup Plan C for AMCA. Otherwise, we are putting all eggs in 1 basket

[la.khan]

I don't know much about defence acquisitions, squadron strength, indigenous vs. foreign etc. But here is my guess what Saurabh's cryptic tweet refers to.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/177328343 ... 189 = 882

220 - Tejas Mk1/1A
201 - Tejas Mk2
272 - Sukhoi30MKI
189 - AMCA

Just a guess but then I don't enough of Saurabh Jha either. Maybe, I should sit down

[LakshmanPST]

I don't know much about defence acquisitions, squadron strength, indigenous vs. foreign etc. But here is my guess what Saurabh's cryptic tweet refers to.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/177328343 ... 189 = 882

220 - Tejas Mk1/1A
201 - Tejas Mk2
272 - Sukhoi30MKI
189 - AMCA

Just a guess but then I don't enough of Saurabh Jha either. Maybe, I should sit down

AMCA Mk1 is expected to enter service sometime around 2035, AMCA Mk2 in mid 2040s...
AMCA Mk2 will be replacing Su30s...
So, I doubt he is referring to AMCA...
It is most likely Rafale+MRFA...

[konaseema]

MFRA saga will continue until HAL makes significant progress on Combat Air Teaming System and matures. The overall numbers of Tejas Mk1A / Mk2 will also depend on how much confidence IAF shows and their need for such systems. We may see another G2G purchase of Rafale's and the quantity will be equivalent to the hafta that is needed to co-develop a AMCA class engine with SAFRAN. I would also like to speculate a single engine 5th Generation Tejas NG (in the lines of F-35A) with the niche technologies from AMCA program, once the Tejas Mk2 graduates to the production run and AMCA program matures. We may need a more powerful engine, better than the one being conceptualized for AMCA but why not speculate!

[ashishvikas]

Watch "HAL And Private Industry Can Work Together To Make India Self Reliant In Aerospace Sector, Says CMD" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/sk3xiSjTQtk?si=Hyzpa3XSr6DP2ylz

[ashthor]

How many trainer in the new order?

[ashishvikas]

How many trainer in the new order?

10 in last contract of 83 signed in 2021.

[LakshmanPST]

How many trainer in the new order?

No official information...
But my guess is either 8 of 17...

[VinodTK]

Can India be Successful in the LCA Tejas and AMCA I Sqn Ldr Vijainder Thakur I Aadi

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/FighterPiloting/status/17 ... 4247981180 ---> Same location, different time. Tejas Mk1A hanger, earlier. Reminding the who's who that 24 aircraft per year has been achieved many times. Rise.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1780083728540471425 --->

83 Mk1A - ₹48,000 crore
97 Mk1A - ₹65,000 crore

[SidSom]

Gurus, One of the stated goals was the reduction of Empty weight by 1000 Kgs. How much of this has been achieved ?

[Pratyush]

Was it between Mk1 to Mk1A, or Mk1 to Mk2?

[SidSom]

It was planned to remove the Ballast (around 800Kgs) and optimise the landing gear, thus reducing the weight.

The Mk IA variant, powered by a General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan engine, will be around 1,000 kg lighter than the Mk I.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/indias- ... -aircraft/

However Kartik A on one facebook article says

Bunch of wrong information. The Mk1A won’t be 1000 kg lighter than the Tejas Mk1. Maybe at most 150-200 kg lighter and even that isn’t for sure. This was confirmed by Grp Cpt HV Thakur of HAL.

So where are we on this..?

[LakshmanPST]

It was planned to remove the Ballast (around 800Kgs) and optimise the landing gear, thus reducing the weight.

The Mk IA variant, powered by a General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan engine, will be around 1,000 kg lighter than the Mk I.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/indias- ... -aircraft/

However Kartik A on one facebook article says

Bunch of wrong information. The Mk1A won’t be 1000 kg lighter than the Tejas Mk1. Maybe at most 150-200 kg lighter and even that isn’t for sure. This was confirmed by Grp Cpt HV Thakur of HAL.

So where are we on this..?

I rememer HVT clarified this on Twitter... Can't recollect exact words, but it goes something like this--->
"Ballast was added during testing stage only... Production variants of Mk1 do not have 800 kg ballast..."
That 800kg ballast news is just misreporting of usual suspects to push narrative that Tejas is bad design...

Mk1 to Mk1A has some optimization internally with respect to wiring etc. which will have very minor impact on weight...

[LakshmanPST]

Also referred some old posts on BRF...
I guess 300kg of ballast exists near the nose to maintain CG of the aircraft...
Some of it will be replaced by AESA radar equipment... Remaining ballast around 50-100kg might be removed by HAL in Mk1A by optimizing internal arrangement of LRUs...

[Kartik]

Gurus, One of the stated goals was the reduction of Empty weight by 1000 Kgs. How much of this has been achieved ?

As per the CMD of HAL, Tejas Mk1 has a payload capacity of 3,000 kgs. And Tejas Mk1A's payload capacity is 3,500 kgs.

Ergo you can assume that the empty weight reduction is of the order of 500 kgs on the Tejas Mk1A without which it's payload cannot go up since the engine remains the same.

[Kartik]

Can India be Successful in the LCA Tejas and AMCA I Sqn Ldr Vijainder Thakur I Aadi

This Sqn Ldr (Retd.) Vijainder Thakur clearly has an axe to grind against HAL.

His claims are just patently false.. For e.g. he claims that the Tejas Mk1A took 7 years to fly! Guy is blissfully unaware that HAL flew various systems and sub-systems of the LCA Mk1A on multiple LSP prototypes rather than purpose building any Mk1A prototype. Which made absolute sense!

They got their contract signed on Feb 2021 and had the first flight in March 2024, 37 months after the contract was signed. Still he's making up stuff about delays to the Tejas Mk1A.

[basant]

SQR preparation takes years and yet the services want little time for development or for production IF the fighter is of Indian origin. Surprisingly, when LCH were produced, they refused to buy but used it for flying missions during China stand-off. Why are we stuck with such 'leadership'? Listening to him made me feel as I was listening to Prof. Das. The kind of arguments he is using as an expert makes me feel ashamed. Anyone with Google knows how delayed state of art programs often run, including F-35, Gripen E and even Su-30MKI version.

Have they ever spoke about necessity to boost R&D or contributing towards it? Why do we have childish leaders? The interview is pure cringe. Esp. coming from someone who couldn't buy trainers for a decade and MRFA farce.

[Kartik]

SQR preparation takes years and yet the services want little time for development or for production IF the fighter is of Indian origin. Surprisingly, when LCH were produced, they refused to buy but used it for flying missions during China stand-off. Why are we stuck with such 'leadership'? Listening to him made me feel as I was listening to Prof. Das. The kind of arguments he is using as an expert makes me feel ashamed. Anyone with Google knows how delayed state of art programs often run, including F-35, Gripen E and even Su-30MKI version.

Have they ever spoke about necessity to boost R&D or contributing towards it? Why do we have childish leaders? The interview is pure cringe. Esp. coming from someone who couldn't buy trainers for a decade and MRFA farce.

He is hardly an "expert". He was a former fighter pilot who flew a LONG time ago, and never got to fly jets like the Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 entered service. His experience, thus, is very limited and not like someone who has flown 3rd and 4th gen fighters and has good connects on the ground or someone from ADA or HAL who works on these programs.

He has for a long time been one of those who will only bash HAL come what may. There are people who are in the domain of aerospace who can tell when a person is bullshitting. Sadly that guy interviewing him doesn't either know any better and doesn't call out his nonsense.

Anyway, his opinions are of no use and don't matter to anyone. As long as this Govt is gung-ho on indigenous production, people like him can keep mumbling lies about programs while keeping quiet about any IAF procedural issues and it doesn't matter.

[basant]

I doubt if HAL ever promised 1000 kg reduction, it was in the news though. If it did promise, this aspect would have figured in the specs. Wonder what actually happened.

[JTull]

Seems someone is desperate to create a fallacy.

Let's not start this new canard, AFTER THE FACT, of 1000kg reduction in empty weight. First time hearing of this. 200-300kg ballast adjustment has been mentioned before though.

[titash]

Can India be Successful in the LCA Tejas and AMCA I Sqn Ldr Vijainder Thakur I Aadi

Mr. Thakur has had well known biases for a very long time - over a decade now. In his own blog he clearly articulated his reasons why...basically imported Jaguars had *avionics* and the locally developed Marut had none, yada yada.

Basically he refuses to acknowledge the fact that *any* ab-initio development has to go through a long cycle of "design-manufacture-test-feedback-iterate-refine"

His opinions are essentially a bus driver's criticism of how TATA buses are noisy and have poor AC etc. His criticisms are relevant, but only as feedback for iterations...it should not alter TATA's long term vision of manufacturing and selling buses globally. That is a top-down vision

For what it's worth, the actual bus drivers of today aren't complaining about the Tejas. All interviews from 45 Sq and 18 Sq pilots were quite positive. There is no pilot on earth who's rather fly our legacy MiG-21/23/27 as compared to the Tejas

Ultimately, it's like buying a car. You may like the BMW's build quality and on-road performance, but if your father is the one paying the bills, and your main usage is for going to the grocery store reliably and the occasional road trip...he's buying you a Honda Civic

The Chinese and Russians had large numbers of fairly unrefined & relatively low capability (compared to top class US avionics) fighters, but with 5000+ aircraft backed by nukes, I assure you no one dared to invade and colonize them. Look at Russian/Chinese aircraft today and see how far they have come. No harm in going down that route with your own designs

Even the US has been at it for over 100 years. No one has ever expected their first few designs to be manufactured in the 1000s like F4 Phantoms & F16 Falcons

[titash]

...

I really enjoy reading your posts. Thank You for your reply. Greatly appreciated.

Very much appreciated Sirjee. The feeling is mutual. BRF has been home in one form or another for close to 2.5 decades now.