Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

[Pratyush]

https://idrw.org/indian-army-to-place-o ... n-strikes/

Published on 6th July 2024.

The Indian army is likely to place orders for 2000 terminally guided 155 arty rounds by the end of the year. This is first tranche of a potential requirement of 33,372 rounds.

[pravula]

Its amazing how IA knows it needs 33,372 rounds and not 33,373 or 33,371 rounds.

[Yagnasri]

You beat me to that sirji. How the hell they arrived as that exact number?

[drnayar]

Likely the money alloted ÷ cost per round

[Pratyush]

No. Because in a multi year contract, the value of procured item can change. This is said to be the first tranche.

[Rakesh]

32 guns delivered in total from 2019 onwards.

https://x.com/iofsoa/status/1815292648111968292 ---> India's artillery gets a boost 25 years after Kargil. AWEIL to hand over 48 Dhanush guns this year, part of a 114-gun order. 155mm and 45mm caliber, under 13 tons, 38km range, now operational in the Indian Army.

[ramana]

So 32+48 out of 114 guns for Dhanush
200 Sharang which is the 130 mm gun up-barreled.
If I recall the Army had a lot of 130mm guns in the inventory.
Obviously not all would be fit for up-barrelling.

[Pratyush]

^^^

While upgunning, only the carriage and elevation and traverse mechanism is retained. Every thing else is swapped out for 155MM parts. If the carriage is undamaged, no reason why an existing M 46 cannot be upgraded to the Sarang configuration.

If the carriage is damaged, then the gun has to be scrapped.

[mody]

^^^

While upgunning, only the carriage and elevation and traverse mechanism is retained. Every thing else is swapped out for 155MM parts. If the carriage is undamaged, no reason why an existing M 46 cannot be upgraded to the Sarang configuration.

If the carriage is damaged, then the gun has to be scrapped.

Earlier 180 guns were upgunned to 155mm by Soltam. The order with OFB is for 300 Guns. The original plan had called for a total upgrade of 600 guns, i.e. 180 guns in first tranche by Soltam, followed by a follow on order for another 420 guns. However, the Soltam upgrade was not really upto the mark and then the company got blacklisted in the mid 2000's along with a number of other companies.

The subsequent project Sarang is the OFB upgrade and order placed for 300 guns. Reportedly the upgrade cost is about 70-75 Lakhs per gun, which is very reasonable. It is likely that IA will go for a repeat order for another 300 Sarang guns, once the current order has been executed. More so as no further orders have been placed for 155mm guns so far and the orders for ATAGS are still awaited.
If GCF can indeed deliver 48 Dhanush guns per year, then once the current order for 114 Dhanush guns has been delivered, another order for upto 300 guns might be placed. The original plan called for a total of 414 guns to be inducted. Maybe the Dhanush-52, a 52 cal variant might be ordered. The prototype of the same has been ready since at least 3 years, but I don't think IA has tested the same.
A total of only 32 Dhanush having been inducted so far is a shame. The order was placed in 2019!!
GCF needs to pull up its socks and strive to deliver a minimum 4 guns per month on average and increase the same to 6 per month, if a subsequent order for 300 guns is placed.

[VinodTK]

The Big Guns: India-made Artillery Gun Systems to counter China & Pakistan | Defence Dynamics

[srai]

^^^
Where are the orders?

[Pratyush]

Will never be placed by the Indian army.

[Pratyush]

https://armyrecognition.com/news/army-n ... 2mm-cannon

Exclusive: Russia Unveils World's First Artillery Unmanned Ground Vehicle Armed with 122mm Cannon

I had read about the UK's efforts to replace the 105 with something robotic and autonomous. But that vehicle was supposed to be ready to 2030. However, the Russians have developed a self propelled robotic 122 mm gun for their army. It has to undergo testing and evaluation. But it's pointing towards an unmanned future battlefield.

[Manish_P]

Time to chalk out new GSQRs / demand in-development guns to be made autonomous

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1822874953781297552 ---> The future of Indian Army 8x8 AFVs and Artillery: Tata WhAP, Mahindra Wheeled CBRN 8x8 & KSSL MGS. DRDO enabling true Aatmanirbharta.

Image Source: https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1822862472300138556 --->

[Prem Kumar]

Above 3 for Republic Day Parade, to showcase token Atmanirbharta

Actual orders will be for Stryker, CBRN-Stryker & ATMOS

[ashishvikas]

Army issues Rs 6,500 crore tender for buying 400 howitzers under Make-in-India
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 816212045/
16 August 2024

[Pratyush]

The tender doesn't specify, if, they are asking for below 15 tons or below 12 tons towed howitzers.

[Aditya_V]

Quoting some lines from the ANi article referenced above

The Indian Designed, Developed and Manufactured howitzer
would mean that it would be totally Indian in all ways.

The Army wants the guns to be lighter in weight and easier to
deploy in high-altitude areas like the older Bofors guns.

[Tanaji]

So essentially we want the same weight of a Bofors , but more range, 52 cal, more accuracy along with associated computing.

This is nothing but Arjun redux to get in Athos.

[sanjayc]

Why can't they just order ATAGS or Dhanush? Why they want companies to start developing a new gun from start? How many years will the entire process take, from blueprint, production, field trials and induction? Looks like at least 20 years. After 20 years, the argument will be: "This gun is already obsolete even before induction because technology has moved by leaps and bounds in 20 years. Let us go back to the drawing board." Even Chinese must be rolling their eyes at the circus.

[Prem Kumar]

This is an insidious tender. Its an IDDM Tender, which means that it should not have been sent to L&T (Nexter) & Adani (Athos) in the first place!

Instead, they are proposing that a committee will evaluate if the L&T and Adani guns are truly IDDM! This is a sick joke. Its like a committee evaluating whether iPhones being assembled in Tamilnadu are IDDM!

Now, any of these things can happen by the Chandigarh Lobby: MoD, DG Artillery etc

1) Army will tweak specs to select foreign guns: weight, mobility, electrical/hydraulic actuators etc
2) Committee will be arm-twisted to accept L&T and Adani guns as having "enough IDDM content"
3) Loopholes exploited: Adani will source ALL components from other Indian vendors, thereby making them 100% IDDM. All the upstream Indian vendors will have tie-ups with Israelis to import components & sell it to Adani
4) Sabotage the trials to disqualify Indian guns
5) Leak quotes so that Adani and L&T can bid lower
6) Worst case, cancel the tender by saying no-one qualified & the MoD should re-issue a tender without IDDM restriction. Or make it come to a single-vendor situation that will result in a re-tendering
7) Alternately, tweak the tender to give token 50 guns to Kalyani/OFB and 350 to Athos
8 ) At a minimum, waste everyone's time including that of the Committee because the tendering was sent to companies who shouldn't have received it in the first place

The whole DAP, Make-I/II/III can be thrown into the dustbin

Rajnath & Modi are being played but they are too dumb to realize it. Or maybe they don't care, as long as they can claim fake-Atmanirbhar metrics and their friend Adani gets some contracts

[Adrija]

sanjayc ji, the government procurement processes do not allow for "just order ATAGS or Dhanush".....

let us wait and see, IDDM category should ideally rule out ATHOS... to the best of my knowledge only Dhanush and ATAGS qualify under IDDM category (not even K-9 Vajra)

Fingers crossed

[Pratyush]

Ideally the procurement should be for the ultralight bharat 52. If the object is to have a system that is lighter than ATAGS.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1824703338878791860 ---> Army issues Rs 7000 crore tender for Indian designed next generation artillery guns. L&T, Tata and Bharat Forge will be top bidders. Current tender for 400, but total requirement of 1,200 guns. New gun will have big export potential.

[Pratyush]

There are reports of Tata unveiling the a light weight advanced towed howitzers.

[Manish_P]

...New gun will have big export potential.
...

Fingers crossed that it is not the only thing it will have...

[Prem Kumar]

At this point, I don't even mind that. Like with Tonbo Imaging, hope the IA orders own stuff after seeing white people use ATAGS, SSS Guns etc

Like with Yoga, we need Western approval before own folk adopt it in a big way

[ArjunPandit]

At this point, I don't even mind that. Like with Tonbo Imaging, hope the IA orders own stuff after seeing white people use ATAGS, SSS Guns etc

Like with Yoga, we need Western approval before own folk adopt it in a big way

may be gift some to russia/ukraine both to try it out in live field

[ramana]

This new tender with s to further kick the can downstream. Will lead to more delays.
I don't think IA wants to fight with artillery.

[Manish_P]

At this point, I don't even mind that. Like with Tonbo Imaging, hope the IA orders own stuff after seeing white people use ATAGS, SSS Guns etc
...

Right, sir. I don't mind it too because of the USD it will bring in

The GoI will collect tax on it

The private company will use it to spend on R&D and develop even more systems and grow to be an arms export giant

And then maybe somewhere down the line, in the distant future, the Indian military might actually decide to use some systems of the company. And actually place an order for a few dozen pieces.

I won't be around but at least my jingo soul will find some peace

[Pratyush]

I am conflicted about this tender. Because, at one level I know that the Indian army has a tendency to make a dog's breakfast of any procurement.

On the other hand, I can also give the Indian army a benefit of doubt. That with the Nagorno Karabakh conflict of 2020. The Indian army saw the effects of low cost precision guided drone delivered munitions. That lesson was reinforced by the proliferation of FPV drones on both sides along with the absolute carnage being brought about by those drones.

I view of the above. The Indian army taking the time to arrive at a future force structure and consequent procurement appears to be logical.

[Manish_P]

...
On the other hand, I can also give the Indian army a benefit of doubt. That with the Nagorno Karabakh conflict of 2020. The Indian army saw the effects of low cost precision guided drone delivered munitions. That lesson was reinforced by the proliferation of FPV drones on both sides along with the absolute carnage being brought about by those drones.
....

Pratyush ji, your line of thinking has merit.

But let's not forget, underestimate or ignore developments in counter drone warfare.

Automatic canon are still kept on 5th gen fighter aircraft for a reason.

There are times when being dumb is extremely useful

[bala]

Lt Gen Adosh Kumar. Currently the Director General Artillery, Indian Army, the General has commanded an Artillery Division as part of a Strike Corps.

Vajra, Dhanush, Sarang being inducted fully into IA. Light 155mm,155mm towed artillery, mounted guns - trials next year. They will go for spiral model for acquisition! Means small orders here and there, since tech is changing. Kya logic bhai?

2042 is the timeline for 100% indigenous systems modernization! He seems to have high praise for US Himars, when its efficacy in Ukraine is dubious.

Bharat Shakti. Artillery is around 17:00, the first section is on Agniveer, which can be skipped.

[Rakesh]

He seems to have high praise for US Himars, when its efficacy in Ukraine is dubious.

So Pinaka's story is now over

Now the self appointed protectors of India's armed forces - on the internet - will come out with articles and tweets as to why HIMARS is better than Pinaka. HIMARS is an altogether different class of MLRS system. You see, it comes under "import" class.

[Ashokk]

India inducting more long-range firepower & indigenising ammo amid border row with China

NEW DELHI: After forward deploying howitzers, missiles, rocket systems and loiter munitions along the China frontier, India is now stepping up induction of more long-range, high-volume precision firepower that can prove decisive in battles as well as expanding its indigenous ammunition vendor base to counter global supply chain disruptions.
With lessons being learnt from the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war, in which 80% of the casualties have been due to artillery fire, Army’s director general of artillery Lt-General Adosh Kumar said the force will induct 100 more K-9 Vajra self-propelled tracked gun systems, as also additional Dhanush howitzers, Sharang guns and Pinaka multi-launch rocket systems.
Some `winterised’ K-9 Vajra regiments are already deployed in eastern Ladakh, out of the 100 such guns inducted earlier for Rs 4,366 crore, amid the continuing military confrontation with China, which is into its fifth year now.
The around Rs 8,500 crore contract for 307 new indigenous advanced towed artillery gun systems (ATAGS), which have a strike range up to 48-km, is also set to be inked soon. Moreover, trials will begin next year for the planned induction of 300 `shoot-and-scoot’ mounted gun systems and 400 `versatile’ towed artillery gun systems.
DRDO is also working to enhance the range, accuracy and lethality of the conventional Pralay ballistic missiles (400-km range) and Nirbhay cruise missiles (1,000-km). Concurrently, DRDO is developing hypersonic missiles, which will be different from the already inducted 450-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.
“With its accurate and destructive firepower, artillery today represents the true essence of military power in dominating the battlefield. We are modernising at a pace like never before. Our mantra is 'modernisation through
indigenisation’,” Lt-Gen Kumar said.
Long-range vectors in the shape of indigenous Pinaka rocket systems, for instance, have added “more punch and lethality” to the arsenal. The Army will induct six more Pinaka regiments to add to the existing four, even as the strike range of the rockets is now being extended from the original 38-km to 75-km, with the high-altitude trials already over.
“The Pinaka is one of the best rocket systems in the world and is being exploited extensively. Our aim is to first double the range, and then quadruple it. We are looking at 120-km, 300-km ranges,” he said.
In the arena of loiter munitions, a ‘Make-II’ category project (prototype development funded by the industry) has evoked a “very good response” from private companies and start-ups. “Our aim is loiter munitions with 40-100-km range to engage targets in operational depth of an adversary,” he said.
A “lot of emphasis” is also being placed on indigenous production of different kinds of ammunition, with diversification of the vendor base. “We were earlier dependent on only one production agency for 155mm artillery ammunition. Now, production of all types of 155mm ammunition has been thrown open to the public and private sector,” Lt-Gen Kumar said.
The Army will conduct trials of different types of ammunition by various public and private sector companies in Oct-Nov. The force is also looking for induction of futuristic ammunition, which includes “area denial munitions” as well as the 1.15 lakh “nub-less artillery projectiles” already approved by the defence ministry. “A number of projects have also been initiated to increase our capability in precision-guided and terminally guided ammunition,” he said.

[A Deshmukh]

So Pinaka's story is now over

Sir, as per TOI link,
Long-range vectors in the shape of indigenous Pinaka rocket systems, for instance, have added “more punch and lethality” to the arsenal. The Army will induct six more Pinaka regiments to add to the existing four, even as the strike range of the rockets is now being extended from the original 38-km to 75-km, with the high-altitude trials already over.
“The Pinaka is one of the best rocket systems in the world and is being exploited extensively. Our aim is to first double the range, and then quadruple it. We are looking at 120-km, 300-km ranges,” he said.

HIMARS seems to just headline twisting.

[Prem Kumar]

The Honorable DG Artillery will have some credibility if he places actual orders. Period.

Letting K9 line go idle, then re-tendering for another piecemeal 100, inducting without testing whether it will work in Ladakh etc. Mars-rover-test for Indian systems like ATAGS only, which did 22X the amount of mobility trials than any other system, only to send it back to the drawing board over some ridiculous hydraulic vs electric issue

If we had a tough-as-nails PM, the DG Artillery, the DGMF and their entire chain of command would have been canned a long time ago

[basant]

+1

[Rakesh]

Long-range rockets, futuristic ammunition on Army wish list
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 690415.ece
28 Sept 2024