Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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basant
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by basant »

Alpha Defense™
Appears integration of Kaveri and LSP Tejas isn’t happening. (Awaiting more details but if true then it another “Shot in foot” moment).
In theory GTRE will be running around with Kaveri again.

2:14 PM · Sep 30, 2024
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by titash »

bala wrote: 28 Sep 2024 20:23
Chetak wrote:operational jet aircraft, the He 178, was flown on Aug 27, 1939
All successful jet engines of the world are based on Hans von Ohain work and Frank Whittle is credited with Jet Engines! Hans von Ohain emigrated to the US.
Almost everything the west claims as their own today is the result of stolen german tech
There is study in the US about who is succeeding amongst immigrant white population. It turns out that those with Germanic background are ahead of their other counterparts including those from Britland. DJ Trump is one example though he is both german and scottish.
Sirjee,

I think both Whittle & v. Ohain used centrifugal compressors which would have given a large cross-section and inferior performance

My understanding is the Ju-Mo and BMW teams were headed by different individuals who delivered the Jumo 004 during the war and the BMW 003 after the war respectively. Both these were axial compressor designs

The BMW 003 series is the forerunner of ALL French engines since then
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

titash wrote: 30 Sep 2024 20:10 I think both Whittle & v. Ohain used centrifugal compressors which would have given a large cross-section and inferior performance

My understanding is the Ju-Mo and BMW teams were headed by different individuals who delivered the Jumo 004 during the war and the BMW 003 after the war respectively. Both these were axial compressor designs

The BMW 003 series is the forerunner of ALL French engines since then
Titash ji, you are correct. The point I was making is simple: Germans demonstrated working engines, compared to the Britshits, however the Britshits took all the fame for themselves.

Marcel Dassault assisted Hermann Östrich (BMW 003 leader) in moving from the American Zone of occupied Germany into the French Zone. Using the basic design of the 003, he produced the larger Atar jet engine for Dassault. Beside the french, the Blueprints for BMW engines had been seized by Soviet forces from the Basdorf-Zühlsdorf plant near Berlin.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

basant wrote: 30 Sep 2024 15:19 Alpha Defense™
Appears integration of Kaveri and LSP Tejas isn’t happening. (Awaiting more details but if true then it another “Shot in foot” moment).
In theory GTRE will be running around with Kaveri again.

2:14 PM · Sep 30, 2024
https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840712613275042150 ---> The buzz is IAF has objected to integrate Kaveri in a Tejas LSP :-( I hope this turns out be false.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by pravula »

Thats the right call. It should not be on a LSP at this juncture. Put it on a new airframe, <s>its not like we are waiting for 404 engines</s>
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

Just a note: why are such issues being discussed on twitter, faceblock, news outlets. I don't see such articles about F-35 or Su-57 being discussed out in the open, are the people at the top in India who deal with issues totally immature that they resort to such leaks instead of hashing things out quietly in meeting rooms. Every major decision of India is being ridiculed in the press. Who the f cares what and where kaveri is being test flown upon. Just do these things in secrecy, rest of us don't need to know every chutiya turn in product development. Only final announcement needed that it works. All the failures etc mask them like the Chinese, they even mask their flying albatrosses which crash now and then.
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Post by ernest »

noob question: who operates the LSPs? Is it ASTE, or some division of HAL with testing team?
What is the intended use of these LSP airframes?
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Post by chetak »

bala wrote: 30 Sep 2024 20:51
titash wrote: 30 Sep 2024 20:10 I think both Whittle & v. Ohain used centrifugal compressors which would have given a large cross-section and inferior performance

My understanding is the Ju-Mo and BMW teams were headed by different individuals who delivered the Jumo 004 during the war and the BMW 003 after the war respectively. Both these were axial compressor designs

The BMW 003 series is the forerunner of ALL French engines since then
Titash ji, you are correct. The point I was making is simple: Germans demonstrated working engines, compared to the Britshits, however the Britshits took all the fame for themselves.

Marcel Dassault assisted Hermann Östrich (BMW 003 leader) in moving from the American Zone of occupied Germany into the French Zone. Using the basic design of the 003, he produced the larger Atar jet engine for Dassault. Beside the french, the Blueprints for BMW engines had been seized by Soviet forces from the Basdorf-Zühlsdorf plant near Berlin.



bala saar,

What you have said rests primarily on people aka human resources and in the days following WWII, if people were not available, then complete engineering drawings along with a few working examples, or even partially completed examples of german jet engines would have been the next best option.

yes, other resources are also involved but without the people who are capable of driving the development, they will be waiting for Modi ji to try and get the TOT on a silver platter

the britshits had whittle, and among others from rolls royce like hooker, adrian lombard, pearson and morley, including AA Griffith (RAE), the germans had ohain, ostrich, and anselm franz and other engineers in all these countries, who helped to develop accessories and sub systems.

Early britshit work on axial flow compressor turboJets was conducted by the RAE and Metropolitan Vickers.

Don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but where are our human resources ......

and like it has been repeatedly suggested here, that lack of funding is the only issue that has stopped further progress on the jet engine development going forward, then why the long and thus far fruitless search for the elusive TOT ....

The laser focus on total TOT hand over by some gora company that the jet engine development ecosystem in India is so keenly looking forward to, tells it's own tale.

some of this misdirected laser focus could perhaps be shifted to the serious and hopefully beneficial development of such essentially required human resources suitable for the requirements of high tech developments

we lack technology leaders who are of excellent character and are personally qualified in their chosen areas of application, and also professionally competent to lead teams and command respect, not only of their peers but also the respect of the country's leaders, (again kalam ji comes to mind)
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 01 Oct 2024 21:38
basant wrote: 30 Sep 2024 15:19 Alpha Defense™
https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840712613275042150 ---> The buzz is IAF has objected to integrate Kaveri in a Tejas LSP :-( I hope this turns out be false.
https://x.com/rv_srivatsa/status/1840971860009238681 ---> Screw this. I say , GTRE should *BUY* a jet , *HIRE* a test pilot like HAL does , and get going. And go self sufficient. We can say there are already establishments for this (tests) but they've got their own processes, and already stem from a bias.

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1840986393083810145 ---> This is where funding matters. On the one hand, the import lobby. On the other hand, another import lobby which wants to shut down DRDO, take over it's funding and divorce it from hands on practical research of the kind you are suggesting. Whither indigenization goals.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/officialTatya_1/status/18 ... 6057067524 ---> Fighter Jet's Powerplants/Engines.

Image
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by basant »

ernest wrote: 02 Oct 2024 05:50 noob question: who operates the LSPs? Is it ASTE, or some division of HAL with testing team?
What is the intended use of these LSP airframes?
I think ADA owns LSPs as part of LCA project. LSPs were necessary for the development of Tejas and belong to LCA FSED Phase 2 programme. To quote:
The scope of FSED Phase 2 programme was to build three prototypes of operational aircraft including trainers and also to build the infrastructure required for producing eight aircraft per year and build eight Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft. The Phase 2 programme has been split into two phases namely, Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC). Standard of Preparation of operational aircraft was finalized in 2004 with changes in weapons, sensors and avionics to meet IAF requirements and overcome obsolescence.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

chetak wrote:we lack technology leaders who are of excellent character
Chetak saar, excellent point. Getting people like Kalam Sir who understood politicos, MOD Babus and scientists/technicians is very rare find. You can see the impact of programs that Kalam Sir touched in Bharat.

Take Kaveri engine program, so many different directors of GTRE none of whom you can remember let alone what their contributions were towards the program. You have umpteen IITs, RECs etc who could have been put to use to solve pointed problems and have them participate in GTRE test bed. You need young minds to solve problems since they have no "bias" and can come up with out of the blue solutions. See how ISRO has co-opted private players to dabble with new tech and prove them out by new tech rockets. Modiji quietly approved all ISRO programs for the future without blinking one bit. A similar thing needs to happen in MOD projects, I say give them 10x more R&D budget and have the whole ecosystem working - EDU Institutes, private players all working together in mission mode. Our MoD babus are stunted career minded jokers who will not think out of box. It requires politicos like Modiji who can see the big picture and make things happen. Running around for ToT, ToaST, etc are short term goals, the bigger picture is complete design/development/test/mastery within Bharat, we have the human talent.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by ernest »

basant wrote: 02 Oct 2024 19:24
I think ADA owns LSPs as part of LCA project. LSPs were necessary for the development of Tejas and belong to LCA FSED Phase 2 programme. To quote:
The scope of FSED Phase 2 programme was to build three prototypes of operational aircraft including trainers and also to build the infrastructure required for producing eight aircraft per year and build eight Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft. The Phase 2 programme has been split into two phases namely, Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC). Standard of Preparation of operational aircraft was finalized in 2004 with changes in weapons, sensors and avionics to meet IAF requirements and overcome obsolescence.
Thanks, Basant. Based on this, I fail to see how IAF can veto Kaveri integration with an LSP airframe. Let's wait for things to become clear
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Post by basant »

If I were to hazard a guess, IAF might have refused to give one of its own aircraft. LSPs are required for regular development and testing, and ADA may not be able to spare an LSP given their tight schedule and long downtime required for integration of a new engine.
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Post by pravula »

There would be some mk1 frames sitting idle, waiting for 404 engines to materialize…It comes down to funding as usual…
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Post by basant »

I doubt if it will be a drop in replacement. Further, this integration will take at least 4 years to materialize. The problem is, even PVs were not production variants and maintaining them would be very difficult. A dedicated airframe, perhaps two, is a must.
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Post by ernest »

We can order a couple of SP MK1A along with replacement of the crashed mk1. Bundle this with the next batch of 97 Mk1A, which if in advanced stages of procurement might be easier said than done. But will take the number to a nice round 100 :)
Seriously though, we need more funds to be sanctioned for engine RnD especially for the testing infra and testbeds.
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Post by Nikhil_Naya »

Paanwallah,informed chaiwallah, who informed my regular pohawala, that the Kaveri is going to get flown on an aircraft soon. Integration will take place with an EOL Russian twin engine fighter. Approvals are at an advanced stage.
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Post by Rakesh »

Nikhil_Naya wrote: 03 Oct 2024 17:57 Paanwallah,informed chaiwallah, who informed my regular pohawala, that the Kaveri is going to get flown on an aircraft soon. Integration will take place with an EOL Russian twin engine fighter. Approvals are at an advanced stage.
Thank You. What a relief!
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Post by bala »

Rakesh wrote: 03 Oct 2024 18:40 Thank You. What a relief!
About time! Without actual flying everything is vaporware. Time to test fly the darn thing and gather all kinds of data real time and tweak the engine appropriately. This is the only way, instead of talking and being in analysis paralysis mode for ever.
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Post by VKumar »

At least taxi :rotfl:
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Post by fanne »

Mig29?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

Most likely. I do not see MKI doing it, as its engine size is too big, AFAIK. Plus, 29 engine size is almost the same as Kaveri.
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Post by maitya »

Nikhil_Naya wrote: 03 Oct 2024 17:57 Paanwallah,informed chaiwallah, who informed my regular pohawala, that the Kaveri is going to get flown on an aircraft soon. Integration will take place with an EOL Russian twin engine fighter. Approvals are at an advanced stage.
EoL ?? As in End of Life, is it? :shock:
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Post by Haridas »

Yes.
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Post by sanman »

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO: https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1842141560978170208 ---> IAF Day 2024 Press conference : Air Chief on need for jet engine technology.
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Post by maitya »

sanman wrote: 07 Oct 2024 00:57 Kaveri Engine - Big update
Everyone, going forward, instead of posting the raw video only, pls could you post some salient points covered in the video.

Anyway, following are a few that I could cull out from the same:
My observation: Not sure about the credibility of the site, but overall, lots of inaccuracies, mostly stemming from getting confused wrt various inaccurate reporting over the years (and inability to separate the fluff), but still an honest effort.

1) The current initiative is towards certifying the dry Kaveri+A/B - which will not fulfill the 51KN/81KN thrust level requirement.
(my take- most probably inaccurate, since the new A/B is a fresh D&D and prototype-dev initiative, by Brahmos Corp. If old A/B, that produces 73-75KN thrust, were to be used, then this fresh initiative was not required, in the first place. Also, the 1-year timeline that Brahmos Aerospace had asked for, about 5-6+ months back, ties with the timeframe of this, as well.
Plus something that has already achieved 48.5KN (dry) in high-altitude flight testing (in Russia, in Gromov test center), a while back, can always be tweaked to up-rate to 51KN (< 5% thrust growth) etc


2) By certifying the dry Kaveri + A/B, over the flight envelope (mostly the afterburner regimes), GTRE is hoping to secure additional funding for the follow-up program - called Kaveri 2.0.
They are confident that sufficient TF D&D and manufacturing capability exists currently within the country to attempt for it.

3) Kaveri 2.0 will have a brand new core - but will be in the same dimensional level of the current Kaveri. It's expected to develop 56-58 (dry)/98KN (dry) thrust levels, similar to F414 levels.
Then lots of verbiage wrt how that is a potential candidate for MK2 and AMCA etc - but nothing on, technologically what does this new-core is projected/forecasted to incorporate.

4) Lots of verbiage (quite inaccurate as it somehow brings in humidity etc) wrt flat-rating of the Kaveri
(my take - what it missed is flat-rating is not only for high ambient-temp conditions for Take-off scenarios, which necessitates employing A/B even for moderate load-outs - but it is also for sustaining high-transonic flight regimes, at high altitudes. After all, air-density doesn't decrease only due to increasing temp but also decreases with increasing altitude.
There's a reason why hot-and-high terminology is used while describing the necessity of flat-rating etc ).


5) In parallel, the currently getting certified version (let's call it Kaveri 1.0), will be incrementally improved to achieve 53-54KN (dry)/90KN (wet) - to bring it to current F404 level
(my take - these figures, combined with flat-rating, are waayyy better than F404-IN20 - if achieved, of course)

6) Kaveri 2.0 Program will take about an decade to develop - but it matches with the first overhaul milestone of the Mk1A getting delivered now.

...
...
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Post by vera_k »

Thanks for the transcript.

Does look like there is severe funding crunch, as this plan doesn't cover all of the types of aircraft engines that would be needed.

Does GTRE make money off some other products? Listing on the stock market would be a good way to raise cheap funds.
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Post by drnayar »

https://www.ft.com/content/f007cf0c-1e0 ... aad46728ea

GE’s offer, by contrast, would withhold a small portion of the IP on any future co-developed jet engine, according to two people familiar with its plans.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

vera_k wrote: 10 Oct 2024 01:27 Thanks for the transcript.

Does look like there is severe funding crunch, as this plan doesn't cover all of the types of aircraft engines that would be needed.

Does GTRE make money off some other products? Listing on the stock market would be a good way to raise cheap funds.


vera ji,

when Modi ji can give tens of thousands of crores for some metro project in chennai, where is the shortage of funds
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Post by Haridas »

vera_k wrote: 10 Oct 2024 01:27 Thanks for the transcript.

Does look like there is severe funding crunch, as this plan doesn't cover all of the types of aircraft engines that would be needed.

Does GTRE make money off some other products? Listing on the stock market would be a good way to raise cheap funds.
GTRE is a cost center for more than 45yrs without any viable engine product.
Never made any money and perhaps never will.
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Post by Aditya_V »

Well nobody in Private sector can make something which is of National Importance, we need to Fund this include Wind Tunnel testing centers, Aircraft Test Beds ordering volumes from Indian Supply chain ecosystem and Indian Consultants.

I believe the TATA Indica was the First Indian Designed car, it took 20 years before cars began to designed India by Tata and Mahindra before they became profitable, now some Suzuki , Hyundai cars Tata and Mahindra with a ecosystem are developed in India.

In 2002 Tata decision was considered as a disaster, today in Hindsight it was a very good decision. Similarly with Hero, Bajaj, TVS all broke away from Japanese counterparts and designed Indian designed motorcycles.

We need to similarly make a National Jet engines for Fighters, Passenger, Transport , Cruise Missiles, Drones etc...

Everyone else will try to scuttle Local Manufacture to assorted Ecosystems
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Post by Lisa »

drnayar wrote: 10 Oct 2024 04:25 https://www.ft.com/content/f007cf0c-1e0 ... aad46728ea

GE’s offer, by contrast, would withhold a small portion of the IP on any future co-developed jet engine, according to two people familiar with its plans.
Also via

https://archive.ph/TUrVL
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Post by maitya »

Lisa wrote: 10 Oct 2024 13:40
drnayar wrote: 10 Oct 2024 04:25 https://www.ft.com/content/f007cf0c-1e0 ... aad46728ea

GE’s offer, by contrast, would withhold a small portion of the IP on any future co-developed jet engine, according to two people familiar with its plans.
Also via

https://archive.ph/TUrVL
Any bets on what this so-called "small portion" is this? :twisted:
It will most certainly be the casted Turbine (both HPT and LPT) rotor blades and disks and ofcourse the vanes as well - and maybe even the last HPC stage as well ... :((
After all, for a baboon, these are "just a few parts" amongst the thousands of parts that eventually "makes" a turbofan - "small portion" indeed!! :mrgreen:
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Post by drnayar »

maitya wrote: 10 Oct 2024 16:52
Lisa wrote: 10 Oct 2024 13:40

Also via

https://archive.ph/TUrVL
Any bets on what this so-called "small portion" is this? :twisted:
It will most certainly be the casted Turbine (both HPT and LPT) rotor blades and disks and ofcourse the vanes as well - and maybe even the last HPC stage as well ... :((
After all, for a baboon, these are "just a few parts" amongst the thousands of parts that eventually "makes" a turbofan - "small portion" indeed!! :mrgreen:
Exactly , that "small" portion should straightaway disqualify the GE bid

Most likely it looks like Snecma that would win the contract
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1845760862121828381 ---> South Korea To Firm Up Indigenous KF-21 Engine Plan This Year. It is considering 2 options:

1. A fully indigenous engine development effort which is expected to take 10 years
2. A co-development effort with a partner which could develop a prototype in 6 years

South Korea To Firm Up Indigenous KF-21 Engine Plan This Year
https://aviationweek.com/shownews/farnb ... -plan-year
24 July 2024
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Post by sanman »

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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Safran Expands India Presence in Strategic Move to Secure AMCA Engine Contract and Tap India's Engineering Talent
https://defence.in/threads/safran-expan ... ent.10668/
16 Oct 2024
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Post by Rakesh »

"Aerospace Is Flagbearer Of India's Manufacturing Push": GE South Asia Chief
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/ndtv-wo ... ef-6837645
21 Oct 2024
The F414 engine powers some of the most advanced fighter planes in the world, including the Boeing F/A 18E/F Super Hornet.
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