Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

[sanjayc]

From LIVEFIST: Countershot Over India’s Latest Rifle Import

His argument is if you made mistake once, make it again. now when you would have made it twice...you will do it thrice & keep doing it.
It would be better to stop using the first lot, if logistics is the issue and get an indian rifle. It would still save money. put original lot into backup.

His arguments are unconvincing and a force fit. The gist is: "We bought from the goras once, so for commanility and logistics, keep buying more and more from the same dude till the whole army is full of it."

[bala]

Maybe someone knowledgeable can help:

What is with small arms that Bharat is struggling, when we have Rockets, Nuclear Subs, Missiles. Is it metallurgy we are lacking, since any design can be copied and altered easily. What exactly are people in DRDO and other labs missing that they cannot put together a small arms into production within India. We are hopelessly in a quagmire of Videshi maal - AK 203 or Sig Sauer 716 or Israeli Tavor. None of the Indian small arms are being used by the army. However the police and border security forces are ok with some Indian maal, Tiruchi Assault Rifle, SSS rifles, etc.

[Prem Kumar]

First, a foreign weapon system is purchased on "emergency basis." This way, foreign companies are given a foot in the door. For further orders, the argument is: "We already have that system. We cannot order anything Indian now, can we?, as then we will have two different types of that weapon, and that will be a logistical nightmare. So, yeah, let us give all follow-on orders to that foreign system that was originally bought due to "emergency reasons" ...
....

Now that SSS Defence has aired its grievance on LinkedIn, the Generals will carry a grudge and double down on denying it any opportunity in future .. truly pathetic

Precisely. This is where PM's leadership is lacking. I had hopes but those have seriously diminished. He should have stepped in (or done it via Rajanth as proxy), drawn a line and said No more imports of small arms, tanks, artillery, ships, subs & aircraft. One-off exceptions will be considered after severe vetting & approvals for these are the exception, not the norm

Instead what we see is a joke called Make-I/II/III, calling license-import as Atmanirbhar, a ridiculous positive indigenization list that lists nuts, bolts, screws & fasteners & a fake tom-tomming like "Exports have increased 800%, where its nothing but offsets like Tata making Airbus doors"

I'd argue that, at this rate, we would be in a worse position vis-a-vis IDDM in 5 years, than what we were during UPA. At least back-then, we had the decency to call license-manufacturing as license-manufacturing

And yes, SSS will be blacklisted because *gosh, he dared speak out*. I think this is a great opportunity for Baba Kalyani to also come out and call this bullshit. But he, being a traditional businessman, will not. SSS will be hung out to dry

[chetak]

First, a foreign weapon system is purchased on "emergency basis." This way, foreign companies are given a foot in the door. For further orders, the argument is: "We already have that system. We cannot order anything Indian now, can we?, as then we will have two different types of that weapon, and that will be a logistical nightmare. So, yeah, let us give all follow-on orders to that foreign system that was originally bought due to "emergency reasons" ...
....

Now that SSS Defence has aired its grievance on LinkedIn, the Generals will carry a grudge and double down on denying it any opportunity in future .. truly pathetic

Precisely. This is where PM's leadership is lacking. I had hopes but those have seriously diminished. He should have stepped in (or done it via Rajanth as proxy), drawn a line and said No more imports of small arms, tanks, artillery, ships, subs & aircraft. One-off exceptions will be considered after severe vetting & approvals for these are the exception, not the norm

Instead what we see is a joke called Make-I/II/III, calling license-import as Atmanirbhar, a ridiculous positive indigenization list that lists nuts, bolts, screws & fasteners & a fake tom-tomming like "Exports have increased 800%, where its nothing but offsets like Tata making Airbus doors"

I'd argue that, at this rate, we would be in a worse position vis-a-vis IDDM in 5 years, than what we were during UPA. At least back-then, we had the decency to call license-manufacturing as license-manufacturing

And yes, SSS will be blacklisted because *gosh, he dared speak out*. I think this is a great opportunity for Baba Kalyani to also come out and call this bullshit. But he, being a traditional businessman, will not. SSS will be hung out to dry

Prem Kumar ji,

No less than raincoat and his mafia boss told the IA to vacate siachen and hand it over to the pakis, but the IA did not cave

what makes you think that they will cave for something as basic, as critical, and as vital as a battlefield weapon

Do a root cause, instead of asking the IA to put lives at risk

Is the IA to forget that they were thrust into the 1962 war dressed in summer clothing and canvas shoes, ill equipped and ill fed, led by a bunch of traitorous clowns, nobel crazed politicos, corrupt babooze, and on "intelligence" gathered by moronic spooks and as a consequence suffered the huge loss of battle causalities, the needless deaths of loyal and obedient soldiers which haunts them to this very day

this was after some clown said that India does not need an army but the police alone is more than enough and so the army was neither funded nor equipped, while Naval ships, at enormous cost, were sent to england to scatter flowers in the sea when some paramour died

what ever SSS may be, but they did not have a product when the first SIG order was placed. They were not in the game then

the rest, though unpalatable to some, follows logically

the third tranche also will not go to SSS for the same reason

The govt is leveraging the output of the upgraded ordinance factories, and mostly reaping the benefits of the investments made to modernize their infrastructure to bolster exports

Atmanirbharta is a long term project which, at times, may produce some moderately successful results in the short to medium term

The Modi govt has, at least, taken the first few baby steps to conceptualize this attempt to develop a high tech ecosystem and that process is moving along slowly, with more and more entrepreneurs seeing the advantages of clambering on to the concept

There is limited funding available but the projects per se, to merit such funding, are very rigorously vetted, following the scandals of the raincoat govt's phone banking funds access to the favoured few that resulted in making India a global laughing stock .....

[Manish_P]

...One-off exceptions will be considered after severe vetting & approvals for these are the exception, not the norm[/b]
...

Just like the SC said recently - 'Jail is the exception, Bail is the norm', so to in the MoD it shall be - 'Made in india could be the exception, Imports will remain the norm'

There is the big enough loophole called 'Emergency procurement' kept in the Make in India policy to let in everything from a bullet to an aircraft carrier

[Manish_P]

...
what ever SSS may be, but they did not have a product when the first SIG order was placed. They were not in the game then

the rest, though unpalatable to some, follows logically

the third tranche also will not go to SSS for the same reason
...

But they do have it now don't they, Chetak sir. So why not try them out. Or is the contract with Sig Saur such that follow-up orders also have to be given to them only?

The govt is leveraging the output of the upgraded ordinance factories, and mostly reaping the benefits of the investments made to modernize their infrastructure to bolster exports

Private company exports could also bring in a lot of money which can be used in a sort of Private-Government model to upgrade the ordinance factories and ultimately make them more accountable like the pvt. sector.

The Modi govt has, at least, taken the first few baby steps to conceptualize this attempt to develop a high tech ecosystem and that process is moving along slowly, with more and more entrepreneurs seeing the advantages of clambering on to the concept

Big ones like Tata, Mahindra who already have other channels of revenue might be able to weather & survive the vagaries of our system. New (or first) Gen ones like SSS, Kalyani will find it tough going to continue to pour money in without seeing any support.

It was good to see the SSS owner make a statement about how he would stay positive and focus on global exports.

[chetak]

...
what ever SSS may be, but they did not have a product when the first SIG order was placed. They were not in the game then

the rest, though unpalatable to some, follows logically

the third tranche also will not go to SSS for the same reason
...

But they do have it now don't they, Chetak sir. So why not try them out. Or is the contract with Sig Saur such that follow-up orders also have to be given to them only?

The govt is leveraging the output of the upgraded ordinance factories, and mostly reaping the benefits of the investments made to modernize their infrastructure to bolster exports

Private company exports could also bring in a lot of money which can be used in a sort of Private-Government model to upgrade the ordinance factories and ultimately make them more accountable like the pvt. sector.

The Modi govt has, at least, taken the first few baby steps to conceptualize this attempt to develop a high tech ecosystem and that process is moving along slowly, with more and more entrepreneurs seeing the advantages of clambering on to the concept

Big ones like Tata, Mahindra who already have other channels of revenue might be able to weather & survive the vagaries of our system. New (or first) Gen ones like SSS, Kalyani will find it tough going to continue to pour money in without seeing any support.

It was good to see the SSS owner make a statement about how he would stay positive and focus on global exports.

Manish ji,

Sadly, no one is going to place a 75K order on a new player as the first buy, not in India, or anywhere else in the world

one off road Indian vehicle manufacturer tried to enter the US with his copied version of an off roader, but got kicked out legally

one two wheeler manufacturer of yore, cossetted and pampered by the licence permit raj, wilfully did not pay royalty to his eyetaalian principals, so that ended the deal but Indian manufacture continued. Any where else in the world, a principal under similar circumstances, would have sued and won big time

just two examples to show why goras are so very wary of JVs with Indian companies because a few strategically placed pockets can easily and tactically filled at the right time, a move will trump the best lawyers and some hizzonners are partial to bootleg organic carrots, fortified with invigorating vitamins

The SSS guy is airing his opinion, as is his right but it does not mean that anyone is falling for that version of the story. One does concede that he may well have a point but that is neither here nor there.

His product has just about debuted and this debutante is no where close to being the belle of the ball. To reach that status, they still have some ways to go

the jihadis have deployed amriki rifles in cashmere (ex biden gifted, and now afghan taliban owned) with oomphed up ammo that defeats light vehicle armour and is not stopped by the currently used BPJs

the cheen are getting restive in ladakh, and the beedis will, sooner rather that later, open up a new front

didn't we ship for free, tens of thousands of expensive desi wheat to these very sons of flea bitten camels, just to avoid such a situation in cashmere ...

The IA will take steps to protect their men and give them the tools needed to tackle the emergent threats

everything else should rightfully take a back seat

[Manish_P]

...
The SSS guy is airing his opinion, as is his right but it does not mean that anyone is falling for that version of the story. One does concede that he may well have a point but that is neither here nor there.

His product has just about debuted and this debutante is no where close to being the belle of the ball. To reach that status, they still have some ways to go
.....

if the debutant is not allowed to dance at balls in her own hometown first then how will she reach the heights, Chetak sir

...
The IA will take steps to protect their men and give them the tools needed to tackle the emergent threats

everything else should rightfully take a back seat

Absolutely with you on this, Sir

But the entire force in not on front line duty on the border is it? Are we saying that we don't have the space to give order of a few thousand and trying them out in the field (not necessarily the front line) by actual soldiers who will be on rotation.

or they should continue to remain happy with receiving big orders like these and still remain in business

https://theprint.in/defence/bengalurus- ... 7s/759716/

Sources in the defence and security establishment told ThePrint that the Bengaluru-based SSS emerged as the lowest bidder for the tender for upgrading 24 AK-47 rifles in service with a particular unit.

“This is the first time when an Indian company, with its own indigenous design and product, will upgrade a rifle for the Indian Army,” a source said.

[Pratyush]

If western powers were following the logic presented by the people supporting Indian army. Then they would not have dominated to world for last several hundred years.

[Thakur_B]

I brought an iPhone lightning cable and Apple watch once. Now I will have to keep buying iPhones for commonality of charging infrastructure and smart watch. This is probably unrelated to how IA is procuring small arms.

They could have purchased literally any AR-10 based rifle. Adani-PLR makes ARAD in 7.62x51 locally. Worst case scenario if SiG716 maintenance issues arise in the future, they could have swapped out the uppers.

[Manish_P]

Anyways looks like SSS (and others) will have to hang in there and focus on acquiring export orders to merely survive till the time comes when they are deemed worthy enough to be given a chance by the MoD.

At that time the other babus of the MoF will probably come in and say the desi company is too small financially so it is safer to go and import from the established firangi ones.

[YashG]

Maybe someone knowledgeable can help:

What is with small arms that Bharat is struggling, when we have Rockets, Nuclear Subs, Missiles. Is it metallurgy we are lacking, since any design can be copied and altered easily.

There is nothing that we cant make if we can land on moon. Its just that Baboos and their coterie in MOD which should be named Ministry of Deshdroh cant make comissions if they dont import. If they are paid in foreign accounts - the kickback is impossible to track.

[mody]

SSS did recently win an export order for .338 Lapua Magnum sniper rifles with ammo. IA has been looking to buy similar sniper rifles since a long time, but nothing has come of multiple efforts on that front till date. One of the sticking points in the tenders was supply of ammunition to suite the rifles, to be supplied with the rifles.
SSS defense has supplied both to an export customer.

[nachiket]

They could have purchased literally any AR-10 based rifle. Adani-PLR makes ARAD in 7.62x51 locally. Worst case scenario if SiG716 maintenance issues arise in the future, they could have swapped out the uppers.

You are probably the best person who would know about this. Which other rifles in 7.62x51 did the Army put through extensive trials before they selected the SIG 716? Forget about SSS, but were any domestic options from DRDO/OFB even considered? If the DRDO could design the MCIWS based on a much more difficult IA requirement which has since been given up, I am sure they could have definitely performed the easier task of designing a new rifle in a single (7.62x51mm) caliber. Or perhaps all of this could be conveniently skipped since there was an urgent need for yet another emergency procurement.

[SRajesh]

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Deleted political comment

[brvarsh]

Maybe someone knowledgeable can help:

What is with small arms that Bharat is struggling, when we have Rockets, Nuclear Subs, Missiles. Is it metallurgy we are lacking, since any design can be copied and altered easily.

There is nothing that we cant make if we can land on moon. Its just that Baboos and their coterie in MOD which should be named Ministry of Deshdroh cant make comissions if they dont import. If they are paid in foreign accounts - the kickback is impossible to track.

Sorry but this is a knee jerk response. Yes, there was a time when Baboos played a role what army would get. But in 2024 under Modi's govt. for what other things it has been doing, it is hard to believe that Baboos foreign bank account is all that would decide it. As a bidder, SSS has every right to state their opinion but there will be secret clauses that govt would not discuss why Sig was chosen, there could be multiple things, including political sweetening, it is part of the business but rest assured Sig fulfills the demand of today's Indian Army. Other domestic players will flourish. There are other requirements for BSF & other para military and state Police. Let them prove themselves in field.

[Pratyush]

This argument that equipment should be proven in the field is the most disingenuous argument I have ever come accross.

Every serious army accepts equipment after conducting tests of the equipment in designated tests. Feedback if any from the testing is incorporated in the equipment for the production batches.

It seems that the Indian army is incapable of conducting objective assessment of any equipment. That's why they insist on equipment being proven before it can be procured.

[sanjayc]

"field proven" means no freshly developed weapons will ever get inducted, and startups have no chance of selling anything

[Kakkaji]

When and where was the Sig 716 'field-proven'?

I have never heard of any major army, other than India's, equipping its infantry with this rifle. Where has it been used in combat?

[Maria]

The Sig-716 has seen extensive usage in Kashmir by the IA.

I am not sure whether the Pinoys have used it against insurgents such as the Abu Sayyaf.

Also, the Saudi National Gourd has it - I doubt those potatoes used it in Yemen during their presence there.

[sanjayc]

The Sig-716 has seen extensive usage in Kashmir by the IA.

I am not sure whether the Pinoys have used it against insurgents such as the Abu Sayyaf.

Also, the Saudi National Gourd has it - I doubt those potatoes used it in Yemen during their presence there.

The ask was: Where were the Sig rifles field proven before being bought by Indian army?

[Pratyush]

What is field proven anyway, can someone please explain?

[Manish_P]

The Sig-716 has seen extensive usage in Kashmir by the IA.

I am not sure whether the Pinoys have used it against insurgents such as the Abu Sayyaf.

Also, the Saudi National Gourd has it - I doubt those potatoes used it in Yemen during their presence there.

The ask was: Where were the Sig rifles battle proven before being bought by Indian army?

I had seen a couple of videos of a few amriki rednecks testing (reviewing) the civilian variants in their backyard shooting ranges... If those could be said to qualify as fields.

Seriously though the IA should be proud that it gave the Sig a chance. Seeing their success may have helped the US army decide on giving Sig the contract to replace the M4 assault rifle and M249 LMG.

The IA should ask for a bigger discount for the third order

[mody]

Don't know how the Sig-716i was chosen, but it was offered for a fairly reasonable price. In fact the price was lower than what the Russians had asked for the AK-203. Offcourse this was just the rifle, without any kind of sights etc. IA equipped the rifles with locally procured sights.
Also, the delivery time commitment for the 1st batch of 72,400 rifles was also very good. I think all the rifles were delivered in a very short time.
Also, please recall that the order for the 1st batch was placed at the height of the standoff with China in eastern Ladakh and having good rifles delivered in a fairly short period of time, was of essense.

The fact that a repeat order has been placed, shows that IA would be happy with the performance of the rifles. Initially after the first batch of rifles had been bought, there were reports of some issues and niggles like high recoil etc. that had been reported.

However, the fact remains that defense procurement in India is a circus. This kind of stupidity is not done in any other country.

[Rakesh]

India-Russia joint venture challenges MoD in court
https://sundayguardianlive.com/investig ... d-in-court
08 Sept 2024

[Rakesh]

CERAKOTE by SSS Defence for ARDE
https://alphadefense.in/index.php/2024/ ... echnology/
06 Sept 2024

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1841062364692541930 ---> ASMI 9mm, India's indigenous submachine gun delivered to the Indian Army. Lokesh Machines Limited has delivered 550 units of ASMI to the Northern Command of the Indian Army.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/sneheshphilip/status/1841750781877162438 ---> Every time I see this “Made in Bharat” engraving, I feel so happy. @sssdefence rock on.

[Mort Walker]

Rakesh ji,

Do you know if any are being exported to the US for the consumer market? I’m wanting to try out OF ammo & some small arms. I’m in the process of trying out the Sig 716. Probably modify the trigger & put a small grip on it. Takes about 2 weeks to get from my local sporting goods shop. You can get immediately if you’re in Arkansas, but don’t want to drive for 8 hours each way.

The Sig 716 Tread, which is the 716i, is $1,700 USD + sales tax of 8.5%.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/livefist/status/1845001326599573557 ---> The India-assembled AK-203 rifle front and centre at today’s Shastra Puja led by India’s Defence Minister @rajnathsingh

[wig]

https://www.news18.com/india/ak-203-rif ... methi%20UP.

AK 203 Rifles To Be Fully Made In India As Kanpur Factory Develops Unique Metal
extracts - the article is worth going through in full

Marking a giant leap in India’s defence manufacturing, the Small Arms Factory (SAF) in Kanpur, Uttar Pradesh (UP), along with its metal suppliers, has developed a ‘unique metal’ that is at par with GOST (Gosstandart) standards used in Russian weapons like the AK-203. SAF is a key weapon production unit which operates under Ministry of Defence and is a part of Advanced Weapons and Equipment India Limited (AWEIL).

New metal to boost IRRPL’s AK 203 production

However, after the evolution of this new metal, Yadav said the batches of AK 203 rifles to be released after December 2024, would be truly made in India. “The first batch of locally made AK-203 rifles produced at IRRPL’s Amethi facility wasn’t fully Make-in-India as the metal used in the rifles were sourced from Russia as a part of joint venture. However, the upcoming batch will be entirely indigenous, with all components, from the barrel to springs, manufactured in India,” said Yadav.
Circumstances which led to the discovery
Russian weapons are highly regarded for their durability and reliability in harsh conditions and ease of maintenance. They are built using high-quality metal of GOST-standard, which is nowhere available in India and, hence, procuring GOST standard metal in bulk was a big challenge. “Unlike Indian weapons, which are typically made from metal adhering to either IS standards or of the Bureau of Indian Standards (BIS), Russian weapons are crafted from a special metal that complies with GOST standards. GOST is the Russian national standard that ensures a product meets the country’s strict quality and safety requirements. However bulk procurement of the GOST standard metal for the manufacturing of Indian AK203 emerged as a challenging task before us,” Yadav told News18.

It was then that a mission to develop India’s own metal at par with Russian GOST standard metal was launched to give AK 203 rifle local-manufacturing a new height. “We called a meeting of our metal suppliers and a challenge to develop a unique metal of specific composition that could rival the Russian GOST standard was thrown before them,” the GM SAF recalled.

[sanjayc]

Great. Hope this metal is made available to private players like Bharat Forge and SSS Defence too.

[Manish_P]

'New metal?'

I guess they mean a new alloy. Which is close to the type used by the Russians.

I think Thakur ji would have some more info on this.

[mody]

Seems more like getting the material certified for the Russian GOST standard. The metal alloy for the guns can't really be radically different then is used for other guns that are manufactured in India or have been manufactured in the past. The AK-203 is no breakthrough super space age product.
Its probably more like getting BIS certificate for toys manufactured in China.

[srin]

Awesome interview with founders of SSS Defence

[ramana]

Which GO$T standard is that?

[Mukesh.Kumar]

IA places order of 550 Machine Pistols with Lokesh Machines Ltd 2 days after US Govt. placed sanctions on it.

Developed by Col. Bansod and DRDO for Indian Amy, the ASMI sub-machine gun finally found favour with Indian Army.

[VinodTK]

Global arms major Sig Sauer ties up with Nibe group, to make firearms in India]

[Manish_P]

Astr Phantom - Born in Bharat

From Astra Defense



https://astrdefence.com/phantom/

[Thakur_B]

Global arms major Sig Sauer ties up with Nibe group, to make firearms in India]

Much awaited from SiG Sauer. Now Indian government can be milked perpetually. Now how about procurement of SiG MCX carbine.

Astr Phantom - Born in Bharat

From Astra Defense



https://astrdefence.com/phantom/

Too late copying SiG Sauer pistols. May have to compete with original.