Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/_devildog_rv_/status/1730 ... 29202?s=20 ---> Specifications for TEDBF prepared, to be submitted soon. 2032 expected induction time, with approximately 7 yrs development time.

[Rakesh]

Made in India Fighter Jets For Indian Navy by 2030: Naval Chief
https://bharatshakti.in/made-in-india-f ... val-chief/
02 Dec 2023

[R Charan]

Prototype of India’s Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) program expected by 2028
https://defence.in/threads/prototype-of ... 2028.1138/
18 Dec 2023

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1737009 ... 35901?s=20 ---> More on our interview with Admiral R Hari Kumar, CNS, Indian Navy. On TEDBF: It is a 4++ generation Short Take-Off, But Arrested Recovery (STOBAR) fighter being developed by ADA as a replacement for IN’s MIG-29K. Broad timelines: First prototype flight in 2028; delivery in 2032.

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1737010 ... 78985?s=20 ---> TEDBF program is progressing per envisaged timelines; all efforts are being made to achieve the milestones earlier than planned. Efforts being focused on maintaining commonality with ongoing IAF programs with modifications to cater for INs requirement/carrier compatibility.

[Rakesh]

Remember the number of 90 TEDBF to be acquired, was being thrown around on twitter? Well see what this article from July of this year is claiming. Now whether INS Vikrant can actually hold five squadrons is highly debatable. So will need to figure out how the article came to this conclusion, because there is no way she can embark 90 carrier borne fighter aircraft. Regardless, 90 aircraft works out to 18 aircraft in 5 squadrons. And that calculation is correct, because the original MRCBF contract was for 57 airframes (18 per squadrons + 3 reserves).

India’s fighter jet selection for INS Vikrant: An evolving scenario
https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... o-3163110/
10 July 2023

As discussions continue, the question arises: will the acquisition be limited to just 26 fighter jets or extend beyond? The Indian Navy aims to meet the immediate requirements of INS Vikrant while preparing for the eventual deployment of the TEDBF. The aircraft carrier’s capacity to hold nearly five squadrons hints at the need for additional fighter jets. However, the timeline for the TEDBF’s first test flight in 2026 and production readiness by 2031 necessitates interim measures. The acquisition of foreign-made jets provides a stopgap solution, ensuring the carrier’s combat readiness. It also highlights the importance of expediting the development of the TEDBF to achieve self-reliance in naval aviation. India’s selection of fighter jets for INS Vikrant stands at a critical juncture. The decision, whether it involves 26 jets or more, will bridge the gap until the indigenous TEDBF is ready for production.

[Pratyush]

The 90 aircraft requirement could be for 3 seperate ships and not for a single ship.

[hgupta]

In any case, to justify the R&D expense of developing a new plane, purchase orders must be at least 100 planes. So IN needs to order at least 100 planes. And that makes sense because that means 26 planes per ship and if you want 3 ships you need 78 planes and you need 22 planes for training, reserve, and attrition, etc.

[JTull]

The 90 aircraft requirement could be for 3 seperate ships and not for a single ship.

I don't think Naval Squadrons have 18 fighters. Converting 5 sqns to 90 aircraft isn't right.

[hgupta]

IIRC, a naval squadron is 12 planes.

[Bala Vignesh]

Well we currently operate the 40 odd MiG29K's from the original 45 in 2 squadrons and 1 flight(INAS 303, INAS 300, A flight of INAS 551), if memory serves me right. So that would make it 18 per squadron. But only 15 from the squadron are may be embarked at any time, I guess.

[bala]

ब्रेकिंग- TEDBF पर नौसेना से सीखने की जरूरत - TEDBF CDR Completed and Prototype



The Indian Navy is developing the HAL Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), a canard delta wing, twin-engine, carrier-based, multirole combat aircraft. Key points:

The TEDBF is being designed and developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and will be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

It is intended to replace the aging Mikoyan MiG-29K fighters on the Indian Navy's aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant.

The TEDBF is expected to have its first flight in 2026 and enter production by 2031. The Indian Navy plans to induct the TEDBF by 2032.

The TEDBF will feature twin engines, canards, and foldable wings to enable operations from the Navy's aircraft carriers. It will be equipped with indigenous weapons systems.

The Indian Navy had initially planned to procure 57 twin-engine carrier fighters, but this has been reduced to around 26 aircraft, with the TEDBF program expected to meet the remaining requirements.

The TEDBF program is crucial for the Indian Navy to replace its aging MiG-29K fleet and enhance its maritime combat capabilities with an indigenous carrier-based fighter.

[SRajesh]

Can the resurrected Kaveri with A/B and 80* Kn trust be sufficient for TEBDF
I know that engine is not in the home stretch yet but can it be THE OPTION

[sohamn]

No, it is not going to be an option. Unless you put a completely private company in charge kavery will never be operationalized. You need a true desi MIL (not the Adani screwdriver type companies that replaces HAL screwdriver giri) to fight the videshi MILs that are in cahoots with the babu's and generals.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/JA_Maolankar/status/1833513281388237223 ---> Call out to the “pro-TEDBF” lobby! Hope news of your CCS approval will be out soon! Might be useful to formally link Rafale M procurement to TEDBF CCS @IACTwo @arunp2810 ? Superb book by the two French authors (unable to find them on X).

https://x.com/arunp2810/status/1833666537636651058 ---> IN has had a “belt & braces” approach to acquisitions. Circa 2003-4, as hopes of early Tejas receded, French remained cold about Rafale-M. We then opted for MiG-29K, but support for project LCA-N continued till fruition. Now, we must treat Rafale-M as stop-gap before TEDBF induction.

[Cain Marko]

Can the resurrected Kaveri with A/B and 80* Kn trust be sufficient for TEBDF
I know that engine is not in the home stretch yet but can it be THE OPTION

This should've been done in circa 2008 when lca engine was being discussed. Or at least a decade ago. And the mrca should've been combined with it.

[bala]

Indian Navy is full heartedly into TEBDF and CDR has been Completed. Now it is onto creating a prototype and flying the darn thing quickly. After some initial flight tests we can switch one of the engines to Kaveri and fly the craft in test mode. I think that is the only way to flight test the kaveri 80 KN variety.

Also I was wondering why India does not have a Marine corp, these guys will lap up the TEDBF version. Why is the IAF so adamant about their own version, TEDBF is good enough and they should order crafts along with the NAVY. Tis similar how IA ordered all the helos that HAL produced and only now relunctantly the IAF is into HAL helos.

[JTull]

Kaveri prototype on TEDBF prototype will risk both programmes. Not a good idea!

[basant]

The integration work of Kaveri on TEDBF, or its derivative (or ORCA), should be carried simultaneously. Unless we operationalize our engines on our fighters, no one will do it for us. Cross the bridge and burn the bridge!

[JTull]

No sensible programme management will allow such callous risk taking. Neither ADA nor IN have any incentive for this. Their goal is to qualify the aircraft at the earliest as they need birds now.
Once TEDBF moves to LSP then PVs can be used for anything else jingos wish for.

[basant]

I respectfully disagree. 'Callous' thinking has led to the situation we are right now. We developed Kaveri and its eco-system from naught with very little budget around the same time Chinese did. And today Kaveri is still the most critical and yet neglected programme. All that is required to sabotage the engine programme by a competitor is to say the magic phrase, 'let's collaborate'. And the next many months would be spent on lots of discussions. We are ready to order about 400+ a/c but their engines are very much subject to sanctions, or 'delays'! Name one other country on this planet that sat with an engine waiting for some good fortune to integrate with its own fighter, that too at the expense of getting into tightest of corners, with depleting squadron strength and adversaries with ever increasing numbers! Barely 3 years ago we were at a tense stand-off (that BTW still continues) with the Chinese. And yet very little funding is seen for Kaveri.

The history of our defence deals clearly shows that once we are on the verge of making our own products, we'd be offered denied products and sometimes 'technology transfers'. Let's look at it the other way. We can easily improve the power (>20%) of our GE engines with F414-EDE/EPE. All we have to do, or for that matter even USN, is to pump in some money into GE's R&D to realize the technological upgrade to its engine. And yet, we don't see anyone supporting the idea as even *that* amount would be significant. It is this kind of investment that is required to be made to ensure fighters are in flying condition. In our case, they have at least some engine.

Kaveri integration should have happed yesterday, not in the near future. That it did not happen is due to callous attitude. IMHO.

[Prem Kumar]

This burn-the-boats approach is feasible IMO only if:

1) GTRE can confirm & prove 78 - 80 Kn of wet thrust consistently
2) The IN, at least as per design, is fine with the TEDBF's thrust being equal to that of 2 Kaveris

Since the plane is designed around the engine, the IN more than anyone else, is being asked to take a leap of faith. It will require a project steward (a tough leader) who will bring *everyone* on-board & bash heads when needed. Plus the PM/RM need to bless this as a mission of national importance

Otherwise, no one will stick their neck out

[SRajesh]

1. General Electric F414-400 turbofans, 13,000 lbf (58 kN) thrust each dry, 22,000 lbf (98 kN) with afterburner in F-18
2.Snecma M88-4e turbofans, 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) thrust each [417] dry, 75 kN (17,000 lbf) with afterburner in Rafale-M
3. Pratt & Whitney F135-PW-100 afterburning turbofan, 28,000 lbf (125 kN) thrust dry, 43,000 lbf (191 kN) with afterburner 35 Lightining (single Engine)
4. Klimov RD-33MK afterburning turbofan engines, 52.96 kN (11,905 lbf) thrust each [84] dry, 88.3 kN (19,840 lbf) with afterburner Mig 29
So if we have a hard task master it is doable!!

[basant]

We have complete control on Kaveri and if a single engine falls short on performance, then we can go for a twin-engine version (like Mirage 4K). We have better control (vis a vis GE) over AL-31F, so that could be another safer option if required. A/c have to be designed around engines. We cannot keep learning the same Marut story over half-a-century and keep parroting whatever that got us into such a muddle in the first place.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/arunp2810/status/1835272860786450929 ---> Some recent news of the PLAN’s 3rd carrier, the Fujian. On our CATOBAR carrier, the pop-up catapult control station was called the “Howdah.”

https://x.com/JA_Maolankar/status/1835360620725592188 ---> If only we’d stop sitting on our hands and just make up our minds once and for all. Such a tragedy that the second carrier is mentioned by the CCS, but TEDBF is not even sanctioned as yet!! What exactly is IAC-2 going to fly with - M-Q9s? Feel like I wasted 15 years of my life.

https://x.com/JA_Maolankar/status/1835360624202703165 ---> Sick of all this talk and decisions based on expediency/trick questions. Let Rafale be sanctioned first…use LCA Navy Mk2 funds. Meanwhile…why do you need so many TEDBFs …. (If you agree to reduce then), why do you want to waste money on development if you want so few TEDBFs?

https://x.com/arvind_Navy/status/1835367057619308638 ---> The heartfelt expression, "I feel like I wasted 15 years of my life," encapsulates the deep frustration and disappointment of an officer who dedicated himself to the advancement of the indigenous Indian naval fighter LCA Tejas.

[Prem Kumar]

Who is to be blamed for this - the MoD, the IN or both?

Is there some lethargy because they think that Rafale-M is their Plan B if TEDBF is not ready for IAC-2?

[A Deshmukh]

IN has a lot of big ticket projects on their plate:
Submarines:
. Scorpene+AIP - 3
. HDW(?) - 6
. Nuclear SSBNs - # more
. SSNs - #?
Trishul class
Next Frigates (of the size of destroyers)
RafaleM
MQ9
IAC2
TEDBF
So, there will be struggle for prioritization within IN.

[Prem Kumar]

Jai Maolankar is pointing out something else and its concerning. He is hinting that there maybe some horse trading going on. "We will sign off on TEDBF only if you give us Rafale-M" type stuff. We have on BRF speculated that this might be at play in the IAF as well, vis-a-vis Tejas-Mk2 & MRFA

He seems disgusted by it & rightfully so

As a country, we are literally in a 3.5 front war and the people in command are playing the fiddle

[Rakesh]

...

Now this is an issue Prem that you can squarely blame on the service itself. This tit-for-tat exchange is indeed what is going on.

1) Tejas orders for MRFA.

2) TEDBF orders for Rafale M.

Where the MoD/GOI take the blame is being gullible and blithely following the advice. But then again, who in the MoD/GOI can sit down with the services and have a technical discussion of why X (Tejas/TEDBF) is a better investment than Y (Rafale C/B/M)?

When Saurav Jha tweeted this in March of this year, clearly indicates that the MRFA is still very much alive.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1773283439996797189?s=20 ---> 220 + 201 + 272 + 189 = 882

The MRFA is coming in some form or manner, as there is no way Air HQ will drop the MRFA. And with the GE engine delays combined with the piss-poor investment in the Kaveri program, it does not create a very conducive environment for the Tejas to be inducted in large numbers and in a timely manner. The ecosystem is setup for importing, by lobbies who are dead set against large scale investment in India's MIC. The gravy train must never stop.

And in all fairness, even the MRFA will not come on time. Nothing ever comes on time in India's military procurement.

[bala]

Current decision making at the top is the issue. When Mohan Parikkar was Defence Mantriji, he understood the gravity of decision making especially with MoD and defence forces of Bharat. He quietly gave approvals for Tejas and artillery in IA to kickstart the IDDM projects. This is leadership since Mohan being IIT maal understood technology and the need to nurture things. Based on his encouragement we saw Tejas being inducted and artillery programs on solid ground. Today, India is seeing value in Tejas and other nations are wanting such crafts. Very big change due to leadership and proper decision making. If you don't have such leadership then the babus and lobbies will run rings around your system and create endless gridlocks. No one can pinpoint what the issues are because each entity protects their turf and on paper everything is kosher.

The NLCA program should have yielded TEDBF by now. So should Kaveri engine. There is too much lethargy in the system, so much finger pointing, no proper direction, no proper timely funding, too much gridlock. Someone needs to put a halt to broken decision making and take charge.

BTW, the Chinese are flying their J-20 with WS-15 engine (crystal blade et al). Bharat needs a period of time to test out their IDDM and Indian defence forces must be co-opted to fine tune them iteratively. Funds should be no issue in the current economy.

[sanman]

[Cain Marko]

...

Now this is an issue Prem that you can squarely blame on the service itself. This tit-for-tat exchange is indeed what is going on..

Sir, I had pointed this out in early 2010s when everyone was fawning over the Indian Navy as some paragon of desi development. The entire nlca drama was a fiasco that that was nonchalantly discarded by a few words in the press by the chief, ex chief and random experts.

If anybody was serious about anything local, and this includes the ADA, they should've come out with a twin engine design based on lca mk1 to manage Navy and mrca needs. Circa 2008. This is how the Russians, the Chinese and even the French/brits did it. When you can't build powerful engines, build platforms that use two engines and continue to develop your baseline engines. But for God's sake, get it into production.

When something as obvious as this possibility is missed, it becomes clear that no one is actually serious. Better to just stop screwing ourselves and buy vanilla phoren products at decent prices instead of doing 30 year tamasha that cost tax payers massive amounts and puts the nations security at risk.

At least it buys India more leverage strategically. self reliance can be built around strategic arsenal...

[bala]

A potpourri of topics based on what happended in Israel-Hezbollah fireworks, is being discussed, but there is some relevance on the saga of TEDBF. Please move this if it needs to be in a different thread.

Redundancy, supply chain issues, the comic saga of decision making, dilly dallying on basics, not encouraging local talent/companies and much more.

India's Military Preparedness, How is India Getting Ready for the Future
Adi Achint with Pathikrit Payne

[Rakesh]

Jha just confirmed the rumour that has been going around for a while now. A follow-on purchase (31) of Rafale Ms for the Indian Navy.

*IF* this happens, the IAF will likely jump in for the remaining 57. In case no one has figured it out by now, 57 + 57 = 114

And 114 = Rafale production line in India.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1850532921972859048 ---> 26 + 31 = 57. If this indeed be the case, then bye bye TEDBF.

[Nikhil_Naya]

I wouldn't say it is bye bye TEDBF. Lets consider the timelines for the TEDBF and also the aspect that the Rafale wont really fit on the lifts of VikAD.

- Timelines wise - TEDBF will only be ready by 2035 for induction into services - this will mean at a conservative 10 A/c per year - it will take about 5-6 years for three squadrons to come online, viz about 2040.
- VikAD will be in midlife or retirement maybe during this period with its complement of Mig29K's.
- The additional 57 might even indicate that another Vikrant sized A/c is in works with timelines of 2032-35 - which is when these aircraft might get delivered - this is also the same time that the current Vikrant will have its complement of Rafales going through a mid life refit/ upgrades, and then eventual replacement with TEDBF.

[A Deshmukh]

We have 2 Aircraft carriers and one type of plane - Mig29k - which is so-so in availability.
We need planes now. TEDBF cannot resolve this requirement. RafaleM is the correct choice now.
we will need TEDBF when the IAC-2 reaches commissioning.
this is still #yrs_to_order + yrs_of_construction + yrs_of_commissioning. Min 15 yrs.

[ernest]

Some more opposing variables to consider.

1. UCAVs in the mix can reduce the naval fighter requirement per carrier. There has already been some info from Navy on this, and CATS promo video also showed Warrior like UCAVs operating from carrier. We can have a follow up development with learnings from Ghatak, for navalized strike UCAV. Going by the trends, UCAVs will become mainstream in the next decade or so, around when we plan to induct TEDBF/additional Rafales.

2. Navy can go for more aircraft than is strictly necessary for carriers, and employ them from bases like P8I and other aircraft. Either that, or they can standardize in future on TEDBF which can fit in all carrier lifts, and transition the Rafales to IAF.

3. Export potential of TEDBF/ORCA platform. Won't be easy, but there is real opportunity.

We can only speculate on the decision, but having another line churning out TEDBF/ORCA will be a great asset. Hope it is not ignored like Kaveri.

[SRajesh]

What we should do is just order 114 Rafa's and set up a production line in India.
Arm twist the Les Crapaud to get Safran onboard for the 110KN engine dream!
That should stop Unkil nakara's forever and free us from a shotgun held to our head.
We have already a joint plan for Turboshaft
We need a Turboprop programme and a Marine Engine.
Current Kaveri shouild be able to address the UCAV's
And that should take care of all requirements of 30's onwards
All feedihg at the collectuive trough should be told in no uncertain terms that there is not going to any further gravy trains coming!!

[drnayar]

IN has a lot of big ticket projects on their plate:
Submarines:
. Scorpene+AIP - 3
. HDW(?) - 6
. Nuclear SSBNs - # more
. SSNs - #?
Trishul class
Next Frigates (of the size of destroyers)
RafaleM
MQ9
IAC2
TEDBF
So, there will be struggle for prioritization within IN.

the nuclear SSBN and SSN s are funded from a different budget

[Rakesh]

I truly feel sorry for Mao Sir...

VIDEO: https://x.com/livefist/status/1852363181408030943 ---> “You know what they say about the definition of madness. We’ve essentially found ourselves back there,” says @zone5aviation on the Indian Govt hinting at another global contest to acquire 114 fighters under MRFA.

https://x.com/JA_Maolankar/status/1852373065633550484 ---> And that is how Rafale will kill TEDBF. Eventually the justification for the “industrial strategy” will demand that Navy commit solely to Rafale. Ironic that an atmanirbharta offshoot will kill an indigenous program. Don’t see how any of this results in strategic autonomy. It will be the mother of all imports AND like a cuckoo kill all the truly indigenous chicks masquerading as home grown. I foresee a lot of nationalist flag waving and “operational requirement” bogeys! @zone5aviation @ShivAroor. Prove me wrong @indiannavy

[S_Madhukar]

Unless the IAF takes up Tejas Mk2 in numbers how will IN trust our MIC? Right now even Mk1a is held up and we don’t have luxury of funding 2 separate programs. Let there be a plan for sure but then we are very good at brochures. We need a fully functioning Navy CBG to underwrite requirements for TEDBEF so that they are not unobtanium - similar to how we got experience operating Chakra sub and various jets before we formed our requirements